Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: George on April 22, 2012, 10:31 PM
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I've re-opened my personal R&D on two dishes recently, in the search for tastes which get close to the best of the BIRs. The dishes are Chicken Korma and Chicken Dhansak.
I very rarely have Chicken Korma in BIRs these days (a) because I've got a bit tired of it and (b) because the average BIR standard seems to have dropped off, compared to the 1980s. But I can remember some of the characteristics of the best kormas I've ever had and that's what I'm trying to match. About a month ago I got close but, then, the next time I tried, the taste wasn't as good. I feel that being able to repeat a dish, at will, to the same standard is essential but it's not that easy.
This evening I made my best ever Chicken Dhansak and I hope I'll be able to repeat or improve on it. The approach I used is nothing like any of the recipes on here and yet it got close to the flavours I love at the very best BIRs.
Another aspect is that I could probably have cooked both these dishes to the same standard over a small camping stove on a low flame. I don't see high flames, let alone the near-burning of anything, as being either necessary or desirable.
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Hi George, can you give a little more info on your ' new approach' please. ;)
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Hi George, can you give a little more info on your ' new approach' please. ;)
Not until (1) I can repeat these dishes to the same standard with consistency and accuracy, so any recipe I give really is tested and proven to the standard I seek and (2) preferably they've been tasted by someone on here, to check that these dishes really are of some merit.
Another observation I'd make is that some of the books really are quite close with their recipes but it's like they can't quite bring themselves to reveal the very best recipe they know, so it's 'cut back' a bit to give a rough approximation for readers, whilst not matching the dish you'd actually have at the BIR. What I'm trying to do, is figure out how the recipes have been 'doctored' and take them back to what I reckon they should be.
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@ George, where do you base your best results on? and where are your best curry houses? obviously everyone will have different tastes, just wondered which area you are from so i can understand what type of flavour you are after, i have travelled all of the uk, and tried lots of different places, all different, some good, some bad and some excellent
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also if you want a tester for your curries, i would happily oblige George by giving you my address and you could post me one of your curries
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George,
well pleased you're interests back.
i've become sold on these creamy dishes and will keep fingers crossed on the Korma.
your methods will also be of interest on a general principle to hopefully apply across other dishes.
i can see you're not sold on the burner. for cream dishes you don't need. the one reason why i've suddenly changed my spots so to speak "madras" to cream is that i hot fry them which is not the case in BIR's. i've really tried to slow boat them but i just can't - only down to the finished taste.
the one ingredient i keep seeing in the Asian stores with my new outlook is i think rose petal liquid. would appreciate your thoughts on it - is it worth a purchase.
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@ George, where do you base your best results on? and where are your best curry houses?
I think you're so right that everyone might have different tastes. The best kormas I had were from 'up market' restaurants in central London in the 1980s. These had a delightful fragrance, rather than just a sweet, creamy element. Jerry raises a good point with the idea of Rose water. I've had a bottle of that on the shelf for ages but have never got around to trying it. The number of permutations/combinations of ingredient options is mind-blowing. If I can get back to my best ever korma, and gain some consistency with its production, I may then start to introduce new elements like rose water.
The best Dhansaks I've had are more recent, from BIRs in several areas. The Dhansak I made yesterday was similar.
I'm not sure these curries would travel well by post! i think we really need to be visiting each others' homes, perhaps on a Saturday morning for informal tastings, if dinner parties have less appeal.
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George - try the rose water. It adds fragrance, as well as an interesting background taste. I use it in Kormas and the odd Pilau rice.
The best Korma I've had in a restaurant (in Canada at least) uses rose water in theirs. It says so in the dish description in the menu.
About a tablespoon is enough.
-- Josh
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The best Korma I've had in a restaurant (in Canada at least) uses rose water in theirs. It says so in the dish description in the menu. About a tablespoon is enough.
I agree - it's always useful to find menu descriptions which are quite revealing. I will definitely try using rose water, after what you and Jerry have said. I also have Kewra water. Does anyone here use Kewra water in cooking curries or rice?
Dhansak is another example. Many menus say, "hot, sweet and sour". I add sugar and I'm sure it's key. If a dhansak recipe doesn't include sugar, I don't expect it to produce what I'm looking for. If they add pineapple juice, then is it really natural pineapple juice or is it it just syrup, i.e. another form of sugar? Why would they add pineapple juice or syrup if they don't add pineapple chunks? I don't ever remember finding pineapple pieces in a BIR dhansak but perhaps that's a regional thing.
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Hi George,
Dhansak was my first ever curry back in the early - mid 80's and it was beautiful, it really was. It wasn't what I would describe as being hot though!
Around Manchester, I don't think a Dhansak is hot although I've seen many references on here as to it being hot?
As for pineapple, again, I've had it with and without chunks but much prefer it without.
I really hope that you crack this one George because I'd love to replicate that wonderful flavour of my first Dhansak.
Ray :)
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Razor,
I'm like you I don't ever recall having a hot Dhansak up here and indeed the sweet and sour description shouts Pathia not Dhansak, to me anyway. Regional differences apart, the distinctive element in a Dhansak, to me, is dhal and I've seen recipes that I don't think really do justice to the importance of a good dhal within the Dhansak. For example I believe lentil soup can be used? Sorry but that's just not for me. I like an intense flavoured dhal in my Dhansak. As for pineapple I've seen them with and without and I'm happy for either.
Steve
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I really hope that you crack this one George because I'd love to replicate that wonderful flavour of my first Dhansak.
Ah, there's a challenge and it's one we all face. We all talk about "the taste" and other fond memories but there's no moderation, calibration, agreement or whatever you want to call it. We could all be talking about something different!
Yes, the menu descriptions often use the term 'hot' for dhansak but, like others, I've never found it very hot at all. Another aspect of my best-ever homemade dhansak was that it was definitely brown and not yellow. So both the sauce colour and the taste resembled my favourite BIR dhansaks, whereas many/most of the dhansak images on here seem to be yellow.
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would definitely try pinapple juice for sweet. having used it in curry2go pathia i was real taken to it.
i have it on my mind next time to try blending the chunks and juice together to increase the hit.
ps not tried kewra water - does anyone know how it and rose water differ.
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Hi George -
A suggestion, it may produce the flavour you are after, but obviously no promises. To my mind, however, it will make the best possible BIR Dhansak. Simply make a portion of curry sauce, with a good thick gravy, [preferably not thin watery 'Modern Indian' type] to this add a good heaped cooks' spoon of un-thinned dal [combination of red lentils and channa dal / yellow split pea] cooked with plenty of cassia bark and leaves. Mix well, add meat and simmer for a minute or so before dishing up.
Good luck, Dave.
Ps. Whole spices are usually removed from dal before use.
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A suggestion, it may produce the flavour you are after, but obviously no promises.
Dave - thank you for your suggestions - something for me to try once I've achieved some consistency with my present method and list of ingredients. As with the korma, the second time I tried the dhansak, the taste did not seem as good. Could it be that the base sauce had gone downhill, stored in the fridge for 2 or 3 days? I don't know, but it's most disappointing, not to be able to repeat a dish to the same standard, when you think everything is being done the same way, both times.
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Hi George,
You could well be right with your thoughts on the base gravy. I'm never as happy with my curries when I've used defrosted base sauce, as I am when I've used fresh!
Ray :)
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You could well be right with your thoughts on the base gravy. I'm never as happy with my curries when I've used defrosted base sauce, as I am when I've used fresh!
It's my new priority in terms of BIR type cooking. I need to make these dishes as many times as it takes, in order to achieve the best-ever flavours, once more, and understand how to get 100% consistency.
McDonalds seem to know how to get consistent results not only within one restaurant, but worldwide.
In my experience, it's not the case with even a single BIR outlet. Quality varies to a lesser or greater extent. Perhaps they fall down on the same threats that I've faced. For my DIY attempts, I need to figure out what's going wrong.
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I would recomend the DD spice mix for dansak, its genuine bengul restaruant spice mix from a chef who makes a cracking dansak. I have made many many dansaks with this spice mix and all were good. The chef swears by red lentils cooked in butter ghee. Lemon juice and tsp sugar or even a tablespoon works well. This was copied from a bir demo. The sns base gravy was also very good for dansak.
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I would recomend the DD spice mix for dansak, its genuine bengul restaruant spice mix from a chef who makes a cracking dansak. I have made many many dansaks with this spice mix and all were good. The chef swears by red lentils cooked in butter ghee. Lemon juice and tsp sugar or even a tablespoon works well. This was copied from a bir demo. The sns base gravy was also very good for dansak.
DD - is that the spice mix you posted in 2008 when you said: "Ok here is the spice mix provided by the main chef at my fav local bir. He uses this in madras, rogan josh, boona, and well, most dishes really. The spice mix, coriander 2 parts, cumin 1 part, paprika 2 parts, curry powder 3 parts (swartz, most will do though), tumeric 4 parts. "
I will certainly try it, if you say it works especially well in dhansaks.
I cook my lentils in water. Are you saying butter ghee is added to the water, or that 100% ghee is used to fry the lentils, instead of boil them?
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I'm agreeing with Razor twice here. Even though I am relatively new on this site, I am now on my 7th or 8th batch of base, and I have to say, it tastes so much better in the finished curry fresh, rather than frozen.
Also, my first curry was a dhansak, in Manchester in the late 70's. It was unbelievably tasty. I used to cylce 5 miles on a Sunday night in all weathers after the pubs had closed to get a takeaway....it was worth it.
It was a very mild curry, a lot of lentils and chunks of pineapple. So, yes, there obviously are regional differences.
Mind you last time we visited UK (2009) we had a few curries in various Manchester restaurants, but by far the best curry we had was in Twickenham the night before we flew back out to OZ. Can't rememeber the restaurant name, my nephew and his wife took us there, but we ordered 6 or 7 different dishes, and it was SUPERB!!
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I'm agreeing with Razor twice here. Even though I am relatively new on this site, I am now on my 7th or 8th batch of base, and I have to say, it tastes so much better in the finished curry fresh, rather than frozen.
I should perhaps have said that my base was only 5 minutes old when it lead to my best-ever dhansak, but was 2 days old when it lead to a lacklustre re-run. I'd kept it in the fridge. It wasn't frozen. The significant decline in the taste of the finished dish may have been nothing to do with the base. It's my challenge to find out the factors which can lead to taste degredation from one day to the next, when I thought I'd kept the ingredients and method the same.
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I bought a chicken dhansak from a BIR takeaway a couple of days ago. The restaurant had recently been recommended as a favourite by a few people so I thought I'd give it another try after a break of a few years. I thought the place was average then, and there was nothing about the taste of this week's dhansak to make me change my opinion.
But...there was definitely something about the smell of the sauce/oil residue which had spilled out a bit on to the takeaway's paper bag, which announced that it was a genuine takeaway curry. The smell was still there the next day. It could have been any dish but I'm sure I would always say it was the classic takeaway aroma - even though the dhansak was nothing special. I'm not sure that any of my curries have that smell, so there's still something different about the genuine article.
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But...there was definitely something about the smell of the sauce/oil residue which had spilled out a bit on to the takeaway's paper bag, which announced that it was a genuine takeaway curry.
George,
much appreciate this little gem. i'm just trying to get my head round how to analyse the strength/taste of reclaimed oil and this is something i'd not thought but fits my intended blinkers off approach.
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much appreciate this little gem. i'm just trying to get my head round how to analyse the strength/taste of reclaimed oil and this is something i'd not thought but fits my intended blinkers off approach.
Yes, I guess it's the greatest challenge to face this forum - to truly produce the takeaway aroma. Perhaps some members have already solved it. Spill a bit of genuine takeaway curry oil/sauce on a piece of paper bag, calling it sample A. Deposit some DIY curry sauce/oil on another piece of paper bag, calling it sample B. Leave it a while and then compare. Is there a difference in the smell?
My situation is that I preferred my dhansak over the takeaway version, but I'm sure the sauce/oil would not have left such an authentic aroma on a paper bag. If I could add that takeaway aroma on to my other elements of flavour, perhaps it would be even better.
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I'm not sure that any of my curries have that smell, so there's still something different about the genuine article.
Hi George
You and I have been trying for so long
I find the fact that the missing taste/smell, can't be nailed down, extremely upsetting
I just have to walk away from it
This goes on forever
I've seen so much in indian takeaway/restaurant kitchens
If you ran a takeaway, I bet you would consitantly and accidentally get what we are chasing
I think it's the oil added to the base, coupled with very minimal spicing
I've seen takaways cooking about a hundred poppadoms, in a large wok of hot oil
This oil has then been left and gone into the base sometime in the following week
So you have flavour and age to consider
I've seen oil from cooking chips, chicken and bhajees go into the base as well
The quantities cooked are not practical to do at home
The deep pan fryers are on all evening too
Lost little bits of batter etc are gently frying and crisping
This oil has a smell
It's not a burnt aroma, but there is a depth and roundness to it
I suppose you could do this at home, but you would have such wastage of food
I don't want to cook a hundred poppadoms to prove a point either
Maybe that's worth it, I don't know
I suppose it's only ?10 plus oil
But a full sized base, too?
I suppose you would have to do everything exactly the same
There is no recipe I have come across, using fresh ingredients, that delivers the taste/aroma I have been searching for
If fresh ingredients could do it, I would have achieved it by now
I can certainly make curries as good as some takeaways, but that's not what I want
And it's not how you fry the spices either (singeing or whatever you call it)
Some good takeaways barely cook the spices for more than ten seconds, before adding the base
The taste has got nothing to do with spices
Over the years, I have had many samples of takeaway's curry gravy
Sometimes I have tasted it cold and it has seemed like nothing special
Really plain
But as soon as you heat it, there is that wonderful aroma
It IS the base that holds the secret
I think this will remain a mystery forever for us DIY curry fanatics
It doesn't matter how many demos, videos or recipes seen
It's not going to happen
The salt in the wound is that occasional moment of success, you can't repeat
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Haldi and Jerry, have you ever made the recipe quoted from CBM for pre-cooked potatoes?
Going by memory and the fact that this was a very large pot of spuds I would suggest the following for home use.
As long as you understand this will be close but may not be totally true to the amounts the chef used..........disclaimer
For 2 lb of potatoes,
150 ml of veg oil
1 tennis ball sized finely chopped onion
1 tablespoon of garlic/ginger paste
Cassia bark 2" x 1" piece
1 bay leaf (Asian)
1 tablespoon of panch phoran
1 teaspoon of salt
2 tablespoons of tomato puree watered down 50/50
2 teaspoons of turmeric powder
1 tablespoon of mix powder
Water to cover
The mixed veg are done the same way.
Cheers
Mick
This is the ONLY recipe i've made that has a truly BIR aroma when cooked.
I've mentioned on a couple of occasions how good this is and is now what i use to make extra seasoned oil.
The only difference is i add 1 tbsp of methi and maybe 1 litre of oil.
the reason i started adding methi was because its a good enough recipe on its own let alone only being used for pre-cooking.
(Sometimes i've added base gravy too out of sheer laziness if not using for seasoned oil :P )
The oil can have a slight sourness in smell after a week or so as it hits the pan which is no bad thing. I think it just matures in smell and taste and adds BIR to each dish thats cooked with it.
(Mick, i was really surprised not to see this in your book as its MILES better than the included pre-cooked recipe, a real gem. :) )
That additional special BIR flavour definitely comes from oil and its created from whole spices and recycling.
I always add plenty of this oil to each curry which gets spooned off and saved for the next.
Frank. :)
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Guys, We have come a long way in our quest to find the ' Holy Grail ' and many of us can produce curry's that equal or even better our local T/A's,even our favourite T/A have their off nights and produce disappointing curry's the same as us ::) but as George has said there is still that certain something that even my best efforts just cant produce :'( I have tried bhaji oil,seasoned oil,veg ghee,butter ghee,home made garam masala,countless spice mixes,different base recipes,high heat,low heat,the list go's on :-\ but certain things stick in my mind such as -
My curry's taste much better and very very close to that 'BIR taste' when I reheat them 1-2 days later.
Two T/A that I use the most and have been in their kitchens do not use 'reclaimed oil' but do use veg ghee.
George, maybe we had better buy some of those brown paper carriers ! :-\
Update !
Following this and JerryM's thread http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8347.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8347.0) highlighting MarkJ's thread it got my mind buzzing ::) I got the mini fryer out of the cupboard and had a good sniff.. :o Wow ! BIR ! ;D I called the Wife to have a sniff and she confirmed this was exactly the smell that fills the house following us having a takeaway.
So I took a couple of ladles out and put into a dish and had another sniff ;D yep that's it !
Just made 3 curry's using this oil,put some in the base (approx 75ml) some on the pre cooked chicken,and some in the final curry's.
I have resisted the temptation to scoff the lot ;D and will reheat tomorrow evening as I want all my senses to be clear from spices as when I would be when buying a takeaway.
I did taste the curry's when adding salt and the taste was promising.
In my previous attempt at using Bhaji oil and if I'm honest the oil was a bit past it and smelt more acrid than BIR !
Will post results tomorrow ;)
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I have tried bhaji oil,seasoned oil,veg ghee,butter ghee,home made garam masala,countless spice mixes,different base recipes,high heat,low heat,the list go's on :-\
Emin- Thank you for keeping this thread alive with various options and findings.
To others that say the 'paper bag smell' is not due to reclaimed oil - I'm not saying it is, although it might be. If it's not due to oil, what is it coming from?
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Dalpuri,
i've not made the CBM.
i know of the idea of spooning off and currently reluctant although it certainly can't be discounted as i've seen my local TA chef do same from the cooked dishes not regular but occasionally.
many thanks for adding to the list of candidates.
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Hi George, one of my local bir's dishes seem to have very little oil, either floating on top of the dish, or staining a carton lid or plate. They seem more watery than oily. But they taste great. Before I started freezing my Ashoka onion paste, I stored it under oil in the fridge & scooped some off to start a dish now & again, as per the report from the Ashoka kitchen. There's no doubt that the oil plays some part, whether it's introduced carrying onion flavour from the base, or flavours from pastes, even oil from some garlic & ginger paste,the amount of oil that ends up in the dish could stack up considerably. The old fryer oil is definite no for me
Regards
ELW
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I've got to be honest and say I'm not over keen on using well used Bhaji oil in curry's but of everything I have tried over the past few years making curry's this oil is the only thing that produces that BIR aroma almost spot on.
I know Julian from curry2go uses this oil and states '' this is what gives BIR curry 'the taste' '', it seems that because of the repeated use of the same oil the depth of flavour cant be matched by boiling whole spices in oil for ten minutes.
As an experiment I have added some Asian bay leaves,green cardamom,cinnamon,and star anice to my Bhaji fryer just to see what affect it has -
1, On the Onion Bhajis
2, On the aroma/flavour of the oil