Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: emin-j on March 11, 2012, 07:42 PM
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My and the Wife's favourite takeaway is a 25 mile round trip from where we live so unless we are passing that way we don't get to have their delicious curry's that often :( Some time ago when we did visit them I asked if I could watch our curry's being made and to my surprise they said yes :o from that visit it confirmed to me I was on the right track but still something was missing :-\ anyway,although we had a home made curry last night we were within range of the T/A today and the Mrs agreed to have another curry 8) She did say this time she would wait in the car because I embarrass her with my cheek asking all the questions :D, luckily as it was early the chef was on the counter taking orders and he remembered me from my previous kitchen visit and asked me how my curry's were coming on so I took my chance and asked him if I could come into the kitchen again and after a little hesitation he said yes ;D and this is what happened ....
2x Chicken Madras,
Ali Pan on medium flame,Chef's spoon of Veg Ghee added not Oil :o
Garlic/Ginger paste added and stirred into the ghee for about 20 seconds
A tiny amount of met hi leaves and salt were added
Spice mix and chili powder (TRS chili) were added and stirred for about 20 seconds
Thinned tomato paste and fresh coriander added and stirred for about 20 seconds
At no time was this mixture cooked on a high heat,no flames,no smoke,and no coughing :)
The first ladle of thin base was added followed by the pre cooked chicken,after about a minute a further two ladles of base were added and the gas turned down slightly and the curry allowed to simmer for 5-6 minutes and stirred occasionally.
The result as usual, bloody delicious :P 100% BIR.
I did ask if he used Veg Ghee in the Gravy pointing to a pot holding about 15ltrs and he said yes 3-4 chef spoons.
Although the thought of the health implications using Veg Ghee I feel I must at least try it in moderation :)
I have tried the 'singeing' method for the last few weeks but my curry's taste the same as they have done for the last year or so and for me it is not a step forward but what with my use of whole spices and soon veg ghee I feel I will be getting close ;)
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She did say this time she would wait in the car because I embarrass her with my cheek asking all the questions
love it!
Hi emin-j, I can now produce the type of taste that the restaurants here in Glasgow dish up. Veg ghee may add something as it's used heavily here & may fry better but it doesn't produce the flavour I've been after. A commercial cooker on low is probably still hotter than a domestic on high, so in the past when I've been following the cooking times on video's etc, they have been wrong for me. Try re doing the curry again the pan if it's not up to scratch 1st time aroun, which seems to make up the cooking shortfall. I'm finding it a foolproof method
ELW
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She did say this time she would wait in the car because I embarrass her with my cheek asking all the questions
love it!
Hi emin-j, I can now produce the type of taste that the restaurants here in Glasgow dish up. Veg ghee may add something as it's used heavily here & may fry better but it doesn't produce the flavour I've been after. A commercial cooker on low is probably still hotter than a domestic on high, so in the past when I've been following the cooking times on video's etc, they have been wrong for me. Try re doing the curry again the pan if it's not up to scratch 1st time aroun, which seems to make up the cooking shortfall. I'm finding it a foolproof method
ELW
Some good points there ELW ;)
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My and the Wife's favourite takeaway is a 25 mile round trip from where we live so unless we are passing that way we don't get to have their delicious curry's that often :( Some time ago when we did visit them I asked if I could watch our curry's being made and to my surprise they said yes :o from that visit it confirmed to me I was on the right track but still something was missing :-\ anyway,although we had a home made curry last night we were within range of the T/A today and the Mrs agreed to have another curry 8) She did say this time she would wait in the car because I embarrass her with my cheek asking all the questions :D, luckily as it was early the chef was on the counter taking orders and he remembered me from my previous kitchen visit and asked me how my curry's were coming on so I took my chance and asked him if I could come into the kitchen again and after a little hesitation he said yes ;D and this is what happened ....
2x Chicken Madras,
Ali Pan on medium flame,Chef's spoon of Veg Ghee added not Oil :o
Garlic/Ginger paste added and stirred into the ghee for about 20 seconds
A tiny amount of met hi leaves and salt were added
Spice mix and chili powder (TRS chili) were added and stirred for about 20 seconds
Thinned tomato paste and fresh coriander added and stirred for about 20 seconds
At no time was this mixture cooked on a high heat,no flames,no smoke,and no coughing :)
The first ladle of thin base was added followed by the pre cooked chicken,after about a minute a further two ladles of base were added and the gas turned down slightly and the curry allowed to simmer for 5-6 minutes and stirred occasionally.
The result as usual, bloody delicious :P 100% BIR.
I did ask if he used Veg Ghee in the Gravy pointing to a pot holding about 15ltrs and he said yes 3-4 chef spoons.
Although the thought of the health implications using Veg Ghee I feel I must at least try it in moderation :)
I have tried the 'singeing' method for the last few weeks but my curry's taste the same as they have done for the last year or so and for me it is not a step forward but what with my use of whole spices and soon veg ghee I feel I will be getting close ;)
Next time you go eminj, why not ask if you can buy a carton of their base sauce along with your usual order, you"ll probably find they give it you for free, and therein lies the challenge to replicate it similarly at home :-\
If you can its happy days, the taste is in the gravy and your techniques right, but if its not right, perhaps it is down to technique :'( (unless their mixed powder is vastly different of course) ;)
W
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At no time was this mixture cooked on a high heat,no flames,no smoke,and no coughing
Many thanks for a very interesting report. I don't doubt you're right but the implications for some previous claims on the forum are quite serious:
1. It means that most of the breakthrough claims arising from the Fleet 5 visit are thrown out the window.
2. If vegetable ghee is used, it means any claims for spiced oil become irrelevant.
3. Claims that you need something like an industrial furnace on high heat are also under threat.
All that, and you still get a really fine-tasting curry by the sound of it.
POST CHECKLIST:
Could this post be construed as negative? - yes - pass
Is it potentially helpful? - yes - pass
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At no time was this mixture cooked on a high heat,no flames,no smoke,and no coughing
Many thanks for a very interesting report. I don't doubt you're right but the implications for some previous claims on the forum are quite serious:
1. It means that most of the breakthrough claims arising from the Fleet 5 visit are thrown out the window.
2. If vegetable ghee is used, it means any claims for spiced oil become irrelevant.
3. Claims that you need something like an industrial furnace on high heat are also under threat.
All that, and you still get a really fine-tasting curry by the sound of it.
POST CHECKLIST:
Could this post be construed as negative? - yes - pass
Is it potentially helpful? - yes - pass
Hi George, If the singeing technique works for you then great but for me it doesn't,I don't want to discredit any of the work done by the Fleet 5 and I have enjoyed reading their experiences and findings at the Zaal Restaurant.
However,knowing from my earlier visit to our favourite T/A kitchen that a 'slow boat' style of cooking produces a first class BIR curry I had to visit again to put my mind at rest and ask a few more questions :)
One question I did ask was why he (the chef) didn't cook on high heat and he said ' making a curry on lower heat will take a little longer but will make a better tasting curry' :o and judging by the results who am I to argue !
I was a little surprised at the use of Veg Ghee and not oil in making the final curry and this lead to my question as to whether he used Veg Ghee in the base gravy and the answer was yes 3-4 chef spoons.
My curry's are very good and whether I singe and don't realise it I don't know but my best efforts have been with the use of whole spices but still not quite there,I do believe now knowing our favourite T/A and the Zaal restaurant use veg ghee this could be the missing % obviously using the right amounts in the base gravy and in the final curry (if you choose to use it) might be critical :-\
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Sounds to me like your already cooking your curries properly emin-j. As you said you'd need to match your t/a's ingredients exactly to match their food. Its almost impossible for me not to compare my efforts to my favourites, but the underlying taste I can get now is there right across the board in any t/a I use. Whole spices certainly add to the complexity, I use spiced water & it's as easy as it gets to make & add it, but I have it down as another layer, rather than what gives a dish it's bir character. I'm also finding some of the pastes work in a completely different way, when my cooking is spot on, whereas before they were being overpowered by undercooked spices & tasting like s**t
ELW
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Sounds to me like your already cooking your curries properly emin-j. As you said you'd need to match your t/a's ingredients exactly to match their food. Its almost impossible for me not to compare my efforts to my favourites, but the underlying taste I can get now is there right across the board in any t/a I use. Whole spices certainly add to the complexity, I use spiced water & it's as easy as it gets to make & add it, but I have it down as another layer, rather than what gives a dish it's bir character. I'm also finding some of the pastes work in a completely different way, when my cooking is spot on, whereas before they were being overpowered by undercooked spices & tasting like s**t
ELW
Hi ELW, sounds like your definitely getting there ;) great stuff !
For me the experiment I did by putting whole spices in with the two portions of base for our Saturday Madras was well worth it,the aroma and flavour was the best curry I have made and I could have licked the plate !
That was using the curry2go base and I have since tried the same with my usual saffron base but it doesn't hit the spot :-\ the curry2go base has much more ground spices in it and this could be the difference.
Although my curry's are very good (according to my curry loving family) my curry's are still missing that 'silky' look (veg ghee maybe ?) :)
and comparing my home brewed curry from Saturday to the one from our fav T/A there's was lighter in consistency with a lovely savoury flavour with that unmistakable BIR aroma :P gotta get me some veg ghee ;)
I believe whole spices in the base is definitely the way forward (spiced water or other) but working out how much of each to put in could be a bit hit and miss :-\
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Emin-j
Have you tried sieving your base? See chewy's base sauce videos for details. I was sceptical and never bothered with it for a long time but having tried it for the first time I'm delighted with the improvement in the smoothness of the texture of my curries. Give it a try - just a standard fine sieve and use the back of a spoon to press the base though. It might be the silky look your family are expecting to see.
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Totally agree about the sieving of your base. It makes a big difference IMHO and is worth the messing about. I would say it improves the taste as well as the silky smoothness.
I think whole spices are probably used by my fave local TA but can't tell which ones and whether they are in the base or added to my karahi lamb at cooking time.
Cheers,
Paul
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@emin-j: I believe whole spices in the base is definitely the way forward (spiced water or other) but working out how much of each to put in could be a bit hit and miss
For what it's worth I've always used whole spices in my base (added after blending for the second cooking stage).
I don't go mad. I'll chuck in some green cardamoms, Asian bay leaves, and cassia bark*, as these are relatively mellow and just provide a subtle undertone.
It's not going to dramatically change anything or gift you that BIR flavour - as we know that comes from technique - but it's another little layer that adds something to the mix, which is all to the good.
*I can't quote precise quantities as I tend to change them depending on how I'm feeling, the base and the amount I'm making, but for a 3L base I'd say you can't got too far wrong with around 8 green cardamoms, 3 Asian bay leaves and a 4-inch piece of cassia. But as with all things BIR, as Chewy says it's freestyle cookery so experiment and find out what suits you, your base and and your palate.
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Totally agree about the sieving of your base. It makes a big difference IMHO and is worth the messing about. I would say it improves the taste as well as the silky smoothness.
I think whole spices are probably used by my fave local TA but can't tell which ones and whether they are in the base or added to my karahi lamb at cooking time.
Cheers,
Paul
Same here PaulP, whole cumin in the lamb Karahi, not crunchy at all though. It's one of my favourite dishes & of note is completely different in colour & taste to chicken karahi, meat cooking liquor maybe???
I've been sieving the base gravy for a while after KD pointed out that the base should be skimmed while cooking. The amount of fibrous crud stuck in the sieve is unreal
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Emin-j
Have you tried sieving your base? See chewy's base sauce videos for details. I was sceptical and never bothered with it for a long time but having tried it for the first time I'm delighted with the improvement in the smoothness of the texture of my curries. Give it a try - just a standard fine sieve and use the back of a spoon to press the base though. It might be the silky look your family are expecting to see.
Hi natterjak,
that sounds a bit extreme to me and I cant see many BIR's doing that nowadays but if it works for you - great ;)
I have started putting the base through my Mr's Kenwood jug blender this makes it like milk and definitely better than just using my stick blender,looking at the outboard motors the BIR's use no wonder theirs is smooth but I do wonder if this silky sheen could be from the veg ghee - ill find out on Saturday ;)
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@emin-j: I believe whole spices in the base is definitely the way forward (spiced water or other) but working out how much of each to put in could be a bit hit and miss
For what it's worth I've always used whole spices in my base (added after blending for the second cooking stage).
I don't go mad. I'll chuck in some green cardamoms, Asian bay leaves, and cassia bark*, as these are relatively mellow and just provide a subtle undertone.
It's not going to dramatically change anything or gift you that BIR flavour - as we know that comes from technique - but it's another little layer that adds something to the mix, which is all to the good.
*I can't quote precise quantities as I tend to change them depending on how I'm feeling, the base and the amount I'm making, but for a 3L base I'd say you can't got too far wrong with around 8 green cardamoms, 3 Asian bay leaves and a 4-inch piece of cassia. But as with all things BIR, as Chewy says it's freestyle cookery so experiment and find out what suits you, your base and and your palate.
Hi SD,
I'll have to take a guess on the whole spices when making my next base probably working something out on the amount of portions I get from the base,in my last base I used the spiced water method but the spices didn't really come through so next time I'll blitz the whole spices along with the rest of the ingredients,cant see any reason why not :-\
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@emin-j: I believe whole spices in the base is definitely the way forward (spiced water or other) but working out how much of each to put in could be a bit hit and miss
For what it's worth I've always used whole spices in my base (added after blending for the second cooking stage).
I don't go mad. I'll chuck in some green cardamoms, Asian bay leaves, and cassia bark*, as these are relatively mellow and just provide a subtle undertone.
It's not going to dramatically change anything or gift you that BIR flavour - as we know that comes from technique - but it's another little layer that adds something to the mix, which is all to the good.
*I can't quote precise quantities as I tend to change them depending on how I'm feeling, the base and the amount I'm making, but for a 3L base I'd say you can't got too far wrong with around 8 green cardamoms, 3 Asian bay leaves and a 4-inch piece of cassia. But as with all things BIR, as Chewy says it's freestyle cookery so experiment and find out what suits you, your base and and your palate.
Hi SD,
I'll have to take a guess on the whole spices when making my next base probably working something out on the amount of portions I get from the base,in my last base I used the spiced water method but the spices didn't really come through so next time I'll blitz the whole spices along with the rest of the ingredients,cant see any reason why not :-\
Unless you've got an industrial blender you may find that the cassia bark doesn't take too well to blitzing, emin-j, though not really an issue if you use Chewy's sieving method.
If you tried two otherwise identical bases side by side - one with akhni stock or whole spices and one without - you'd definitely pick up on the difference, but as said it's subtle.
But then isn't everything in this game?
A little bit of this, a little bit of that, not too much of the other... It's a balancing act, that's for sure...
But it sounds as though you know what you're looking for, which is a good place to be.
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emin-j,
whole spice "chef garam" and veg ghee (re ashoka) are key ingredients in the base.
i use 1 tsp of chef garam per 800g onion and 30ml v.ghee in same. i do this for all bases. more ghee can be added and improves the effect - too much though is no good.
i've tried frying in v.ghee and don't like it compared to reclaimed oil.
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emin-j,
whole spice "chef garam" and veg ghee (re ashoka) are key ingredients in the base.
i use 1 tsp of chef garam per 800g onion and 30ml v.ghee in same. i do this for all bases. more ghee can be added and improves the effect - too much though is no good.
i've tried frying in v.ghee and don't like it compared to reclaimed oil.
You kept that quiet JerryM ! ;)
I think I will be using 1 chef's spoon of veg ghee in my next base (6ltrs) for a starting point although not too happy about using it .. :-\
The wife did comment on why my curry's seem oily compared to the T/A ,that could because they use ghee ?
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emin-j,
just a realisation since Zaal that what i call whole spice is in fact "chef" garam. i've posted about using a muslin bag and subsequently spice ball for some time. parker21 also added the water infusion method.
the ghee used to be marg. it was chriswg who put me onto switching from the marg. the marg came from the ashoka base - which for me has far too much marg in. i've not kept record but think the optimum ghee/marg was 60ml in 800g onion which equates to 3L base.
on 60ml being chef spoon then your idea of using 1 off in 6L sounds a good starting point. the ghee is much better than the marg as it produces the same effect but not a sort of sickly Taint associated with the marg.
on the chef masala i've not experimented as 1 tsp seemed to work. previously in the spice ball went 4 off cardamom, 4 off bay and 1 off anis. the tgad or Zaal method enables more depth of taste by adding in a greater depth of spice. i also use it now post fleet5 in my mix powder. i've used in pilau rice for some time too.
on the amount what i look for is the taste in the oil. just taste a bit when it surfaces. it's possible that more could be added but i feel i have no need to experiment as the 1 tsp does the job. everything in curry of course needs to be in balance and too much would be as bad as too little.
i can't really say that either of these additions make a 'silky' look though.
ps try a 1/2 chef of base to help out with the singe - may help - it's what i do (see spice frying trials).
base link may be of use in terms of the general principle to be applied to all/any base: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0)
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Hi JerryM,
The spice trials are interesting (2008 !)
I have had my best results by frying the G/G then removing pan from heat and adding 3 tbsp thinned tom paste and then add 2 tsps of spice mix and 2 tsps kashmiri chili, this gives enough liquid in the frying pan to be able to fry the spices well without burning and I can fry to almost a dry pan without any burning,I then add the first ladle of base and everything blends together.
This was unlike the chef at our favourite T/A who after frying G/G fried the spices for at the most 20 seconds then immediately added tom paste (thinned) stirred for a few seconds and then added first ladle of base.
The gas flame was the full width of the pan but was a lazy flame and the whole process was very casual.
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emin-j,
your method is exactly it - it's the presence of water (in any form) that matters. you can get equally good result with what i call "dry" frying - i spent 3 months at it. the thing about having the water is the consistency for me. i believe the the fleet5 singe & quench is equivalent just a tad easier to master.
my flame is lazy and wraps around the pan and now that i've got the hang of it - casual too. it depends on the dish but i rarely add a ladle at a time - tends to be a chef spoon at a time initially increasing quickly as the volume in the pan increases (for cream dishes it don't matter that much but for hot fry i get the best result if the heat does not dip).