Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on December 23, 2011, 10:03 AM
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2011 has been pizza year for me - essentially outdoor wood burning oven. have had real good time.
the food at my local TA went downhill and prices went up. the local restaurant though has been a saviour doing a midweek meal deal that is too god to miss resulting in many happy curry nights out.
consequently my curry journey has not progressed too much this year.
the highlight has been ifindforu's staff curry which although not BIR is delivered with a fraction of BIR effort and sorts that midweek curry urge.
for 2012 i think i have 2 off needs jumping out:
1) to understand how infindforu's mix powder works
2) to really do justice to the Ashoka recipes - whilst i've done quite a lot there is still lots to go at in terms of trying out main dish recipes
the 2011 No1 "recipe refinement" - i've now realised is not practical as a specific task - it can only be delivered over time. i've now realised that you need to make a recipe quite a lot and understand the tastes before it can be refined.
anyhow would love to know what others are planning for next year in terms of that elusive BIR.
ps for anyone with outdoor pizza oven interest - www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk (http://www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk)
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2011 has been pizza year for me - essentially outdoor wood burning oven. have had real good time.
Nice to find another Pizza fan. I used to make my own pizzas many years ago, but without a decent heat source, the base is always a bit 'biscuity'. I'm too mean to invest in a wood fired oven, are you getting really good results from it?
the 2011 No1 "recipe refinement" - i've now realised is not practical as a specific task - it can only be delivered over time. i've now realised that you need to make a recipe quite a lot and understand the tastes before it can be refined.
Agree 100% on the need to cook out a recipe multiple times before you can really understand it. This has always been my philosophy too and is a bit of an evolutionary process.
www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk (http://www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk)
Great link. I shall look at the 'smokers' in there with some interest as I've always been interested in food smokers.
As for 2012, for me will be a year of many changes and my cooking may have to go on the 'back burner' as I deal with other things. But when I get the chance I want to test out a few theories I have with regards to BIR flavours and continue with working on my 'generic' curry dish without trying to create a specific Bhuna, Madras, Dopiaza or whatever.
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spiceyokooko,
the dough plays a big part in the result and is the 1st to at least start to conquer (remains work in progress for me). the wfo pizza is for defo the top of the game. my bake time is around 2.5 mins. i can get a 3.5 min bake in my domestic oven but it's still well short of the wfo offering.
on the smokers - was very much impressed at this diy wok smoking - worked a treat and very simple. link to a site via the wfo site http://countrywoodsmoke.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/tea-smoked-salmon/ (http://countrywoodsmoke.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/tea-smoked-salmon/) . my only observation was i needed to cook for longer than stated ~ 20-25 mins. i used normal loose tea.
getting back to the important stuff - the generic curry sounds very interesting. i have a sort of similar interest in that i'd like to try to convert something like ifindforu's staff curry into BIR but without the extra effort that normally involves. the thinking being that learning is to be had along with much enjoyment.
best wishes,
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the dough plays a big part in the result and is the 1st to at least start to conquer (remains work in progress for me). the wfo pizza is for defo the top of the game. my bake time is around 2.5 mins. i can get a 3.5 min bake in my domestic oven but it's still well short of the wfo offering.
Jerry
As you rightly say, the dough is paramount to creating a really good pizza. I've always been a fan of the Pizza Express style pizzas, which in my opinion are probably the closest you'll get in this country to a pizza made in italy, the standard thin crust, wood fired oven variety. Although the pizza's you get in Pizza Express have been shrinking year on year - they're tiny now compared to what they used to be, they're still a cut above the processed, formulaic rubbish you'll get in Pizza Hut and other similar styled fast food outlets sadly inspired by America.
I bought Peter Boizot's (the founder of Pizza Express) excellent book, 'The Pizza Express Cookbook' and everything you need to create great classic thin crust pizza's is in that book.
There's no magical ingredients to the dough, it's basically just water/oil, flour, salt and yeast/sugar. What makes the difference (as is so often the case in cooking) is what you do with those ingredients! The two key things in my opinion is the kneading of the dough into the right consistency, but not so hard that you compress all the yeast derived air out of the dough and the correct rising time and activity of the yeast. You also need to spread/stretch the dough out into the required shape by hand, you should not use a rolling pin, that just squashes and compresses all that yeast generated air out of the dough.
If you then cook your pizza in a wood fired oven at the correct temperature you should get the perfect pizza crust - crispy on the outside and soft and chewy on the inside.
If you're serious about getting your dough right, I'd strongly recommend that book as a very good informative read. ISBN 0-241-13077-8. He also gives the recipes for a variety of different types of dough and of course all the classic Pizza Express Pizza recipes are in there as well.
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My passion for cooking has taken me over a 30 year period really. I always think back and wonder why I went into the electronics field instead of the kitchens..... but that is history now and I have the life I have been given...
I would like to try some more pizza cooking next year, did some a few years ago and I love the thin and crispy type, I can't stand thick based pizza's or stuffed crust as all that bread detracts from the main ingredients. My Girlfriend when we get a pizza just pulls the top mixture off and just eats that without even trying the bread lol, and loves veggie pizzas, favourite one being, Red Onion, Mushroom, Green Pepper, Jalapeno.... which I also adore....
Another one I had when in Greece once is Tuna and Onion. Fresh flaked Tuna, Red Onion, a drizzle of Olive Oil and stone baked...
With my Indian, I have to say I am very happy with what I produce now and want to experiment more in the new year with dishes that probably aren't BIR but not traditional either. I think Emin-J knows exactly what I am talking about having frequented the same restaurant in Bristol.
So there might be some new dishes appearing on here sometime in the new year, don't knock them if they are not BIR, just try them and let me have you're honest opinion... trouble is, which section should I post them in?......
I hope everyone had a great Xmas and Happy New Year to all... :)
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I haven't made my own pizza'a for years, but when i did, the recipe was from a friend who's parents owned a pizza place in wangaratta, OZ :D
sorry, i dont have the recipe anymore.
i do remember being told to use lamb bones in the sauce and NEVER any herbs.
if any of you do eat shop bought pizza's, i URGE you to try the Italian Style ones from iceland.
for me, none of the other supermarkets come close! EVEN the pizza express sold in supermarkets, AND theyre only GBP1.50
also made in italy ;)
http://www.iceland.co.uk/our-food/frozen-food/pizza (http://www.iceland.co.uk/our-food/frozen-food/pizza)
Frank ;)
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Spicyokooko,
you'll have to join the pizza site. the lack of rolling pin use is spot on.
this is the best finished recipe i've come across http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953. (http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953.) this site is very good too www.pizzamaking.com (http://www.pizzamaking.com)
976bar,
very much looking forward to the "bristol" style. i can't promise i won't try and put a BIR slant for my own use but it's the bigger picture of learning for all of us that's important - get them posted matters not where
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pizza...mm..love it
here's one of my stuffed crust efforts with home made base and home made tomato sauce base :)
simples :)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2b6f41043f9e648739ef8d68104f34f8.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2b6f41043f9e648739ef8d68104f34f8.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/e5207957a7899812721830e94a5202bb.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#e5207957a7899812721830e94a5202bb.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/c2082366e90236b5bf81ae92f15517d0.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#c2082366e90236b5bf81ae92f15517d0.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/31313b9a90509533dee1ea8eea418091.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#31313b9a90509533dee1ea8eea418091.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/32de529df6972645ab65b29c41b04ef6.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#32de529df6972645ab65b29c41b04ef6.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/ca4678ec28631c06ee61b94355bd89b2.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#ca4678ec28631c06ee61b94355bd89b2.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/db8f0fa5a1bee187c6e879df1f7f2f2b.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#db8f0fa5a1bee187c6e879df1f7f2f2b.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5866a3bb88733e1e88b43ac3da90bd1e.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#5866a3bb88733e1e88b43ac3da90bd1e.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/29841448dac2a8deee3e6a512c06c69b.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#29841448dac2a8deee3e6a512c06c69b.JPG)
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Mr M, now that's what i call dedication :P. Pizza, i can take it or leave, preferably leave it. Once a year is my limit. But that does look damn tasty and i wouldn't mind making that my one slice for 2011 :D. Guess i'll have to make do with boring old curry again ::) ::)
Edit - Just noticed the additional ingredient in the background. Is that essential to the overall taste ;D. Maybe i'd enjoy pizza a lot more with that kind of addition ;)
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Spicyokooko,
you'll have to join the pizza site. the lack of rolling pin use is spot on.
this is the best finished recipe i've come across http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953. (http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953.) this site is very good too www.pizzamaking.com (http://www.pizzamaking.com)
976bar,
very much looking forward to the "bristol" style. i can't promise i won't try and put a BIR slant for my own use but it's the bigger picture of learning for all of us that's important - get them posted matters not where
Hi Jerry, I've just joined the woodoven forum, and am just waiting for them to activate my account, I fancy making some Pizza's again!! Thanks for the link :)
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pizza...mm..love it
here's one of my stuffed crust efforts with home made base and home made tomato sauce base :)
simples :)
Hi Mojo
Thanks for posting this :D
Wow, that looks lush, wish we had smell-a-vision, that last pic
looks soooo tempting.
cheers Chewy
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you'll have to join the pizza site. the lack of rolling pin use is spot on.
Jerry
I think my pizza making days are long gone! It's a skill I've learnt and can reproduce as and when, but I've kind of moved on now to other things and getting this BIR Curry cracked is my priority at the moment. When I've cracked that I'll find some other culinary challenge!
But if I can help you in any way with regards to your pizza making I'd be happy to. I noticed one of the guys on that site cooking at 500 degrees C, holy cow, tell him the optimum temperature is 370 degrees C! Which is still far higher than you'll achieve in most domestic ovens. A wood fired oven is the 'heart and soul' of a good pizza.
Good Karma!
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the pizza looks magic ...b in law built an outside oven last year, very similar to this one
http://www.villagok.dk/brickoven/index.html (http://www.villagok.dk/brickoven/index.html)
Cooks a pizza in just over a minute & half
Regards
ELW
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I bought Peter Boizot's (the founder of Pizza Express) excellent book, 'The Pizza Express Cookbook' and everything you need to create great classic thin crust pizza's is in that book.
Thanks for the tip
I've just bought it
I'm sure I'll have loads of enjoyment cooking from it
One thing I find very difficult, is to get anywhere near the takeaway "pizza aroma"
Maybe this book will help
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I bought Peter Boizot's (the founder of Pizza Express) excellent book, 'The Pizza Express Cookbook' and everything you need to create great classic thin crust pizza's is in that book.
Thanks for the tip
I've just bought it
I'm sure I'll have loads of enjoyment cooking from it
One thing I find very difficult, is to get anywhere near the takeaway "pizza aroma"
[/b]Maybe this book will help
OMG :o Here we go again ! ;D ;)
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[/center]=1324913346]
I bought Peter Boizot's (the founder of Pizza Express) excellent book, 'The Pizza Express Cookbook' and everything you need to create great classic thin crust pizza's is in that book.
Thanks for the tip
I've just bought it
I'm sure I'll have loads of enjoyment cooking from it
One thing I find very difficult, is to get anywhere near the takeaway "pizza aroma"
[/b]Maybe this book will help
OMG :o Here we go again ! ;D ;)
Funny you should say that ;D .i was thinking just the same ;). It's the smell of course. Now how do we get that???? ::)
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some kind words and clearly pizza expertise amongst us.
the key reason for the post though being BIR - i'm always concerned that i've missed something. CA's pointer on the curry2go onion gravy is a good example - you think you know but you don't.
ELW experience (and i'm sure many others) is something i can relate to - it's relatively easy to get 95% of the way but that last gap is the hardest. probably because your bar has become that much higher.
have looked back through previous resolutions and have added a sort of update - as i see it now. CA's previously stated objective remains my priority. any thoughts or challenges very much appreciated - it's the learning that's important.
ps there are many posts covering this information and making use of the search facility is crucial in pin pointing the required understanding from the many options (sometimes the only way to prove is try it).
1) Reduce No off Bases in use - i've made many bases, many ways. the final characteristics are what is important. i'd encourage anyone serious to ask for a portion of base from there local BIR. this was a significant step forward. i only manage to get the characteristics via the 2 stage process
2) Yellow v Red Curry Base Oil - It don't matter which. i use both
3) Ashoka Marge - It's a must but in small amount. I've recently switched following chriswg recommendation to veg ghee which i feel is a tad better
4) Spice Mix v Garam Masala at frying stage - the BIR i know needs mix powder. the ashoka dishes still remain a fav and my main focus for the coming year - learn more about East End Garam work as garam never worked in KD1.
5) Burner Size - CA was right. i cook in the garage now and have upped my propane to a nice little 19kg bottle. for me you can'y cook BIR in a domestic kitchen. parker21's tip of newspaper still lives on but my good lady never was impressed
6) spice - i'd overlooked this. many thanks to ifindforu
7) salt - this was the hardest for me to crack. i now put 0.5tsp per portion in the base and add if needed upto 0.25tsp at frying
8 ) pre cooked onion - both simmered and hot fried - both versions needed depending on the dish
9) caramelised onion in base - it makes no difference to final result (i add all in at the start)
10) technique - as CA says no one has ever been interested in cracking this. for me it's critical and simple yet intricate
11) equipment - goes without saying
12) prep crucial - this is my standard list:
a) oil from the base
b) pre cooked ashoka g/g (quite liking just garlic puree at the moment - i think you need both),
c) tom puree straight out the tin (garlic was on my mind now sorted thanks to curry2go late addition),
d) bunjarra (start with the original version to understand the basic taste/characteristics),
e) mix powder mouchak (ifindforu - need supplier with reasonable delivery charge for Eastern Star and Jalpur Garam - hint)
f) base - it's got to be thin but deceptively full of onion. no special ingredient other than depth of flavour and balance
g) parker21 red masala - for CTM
h) Secret Santa's red chilli sauce for madras and similar dishes
i) Ashoka North Indian derived green chilli sauce for vindaloo
j) fresh coriander from the freezer added with base at frying stage
k) chewytikka's nagga sauce and Green Chutney
l) the rest of the off shelf ingredients
my final thought is of recipe refinement - the vindaloo from curry2go was top notch and bodes well for getting our recipes right.
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5) Burner Size - CA was right. i cook in the garage now and have upped my propane to a nice little 19kg bottle. for me you can'y cook BIR in a domestic kitchen. parker21's tip of newspaper still lives on but my good lady never was impressed
If this is correct, then many of us will be disappointed with this :(
I wonder if Abdul, Julian or Ifindforu could comment on whether they can replicate their restaurant dishes at home!
Let us know please ???
Wayne
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i feel my planned ashoka revisit is my biggest need (sauces and pastes, recipe refinement). the arbitrary 95% is like fell walking the ground starts off pretty much flat and a lot of ground can be covered relatively quickly.
this final gap of say 5% is far more tricky - i see it as not much ground to cover but the peaks are high.
my gut feeling is that this 5% breaks down into something like:
1% equipment
1% technique
1% sauces and pastes
1% recipe refinement
1% mix powder
given the mix powder was quite a surprise my inherent fear of missing a trick has resurfaced (you think you know but you don't) - hence the post
the 5% could be as much as 10% for example although i doubt it. is there a no 6 & 7 say.
thoughts that immediately come to mind that have gone off my radar (the 5% constituents) being:
a) things BIR's do through operation that home cooking would not naturally come across
b) things that are not discarded
i'm essentially after a sanity check so any thoughts much appreciated
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i feel my planned ashoka revisit is my biggest need (sauces and pastes, recipe refinement). the arbitrary 95% is like fell walking the ground starts off pretty much flat and a lot of ground can be covered relatively quickly.
this final gap of say 5% is far more tricky - i see it as not much ground to cover but the peaks are high.
my gut feeling is that this 5% breaks down into something like:
1% equipment
1% technique
1% sauces and pastes
1% recipe refinement
1% mix powder
given the mix powder was quite a surprise my inherent fear of missing a trick has resurfaced (you think you know but you don't) - hence the post
the 5% could be as much as 10% for example although i doubt it. is there a no 6 & 7 say.
thoughts that immediately come to mind that have gone off my radar (the 5% constituents) being:
a) things BIR's do through operation that home cooking would not naturally come across
b) things that are not discarded
i'm essentially after a sanity check so any thoughts much appreciated
Hi JerryM,
Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway :-\
I've recently got into Roasting my own Coffee Beans and have noticed that Beans that are much over a week old after Roasting have lost quite a lot of their flavour and Aroma when ground and a Coffee made.
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i feel my planned ashoka revisit is my biggest need (sauces and pastes, recipe refinement). the arbitrary 95% is like fell walking the ground starts off pretty much flat and a lot of ground can be covered relatively quickly.
this final gap of say 5% is far more tricky - i see it as not much ground to cover but the peaks are high.
my gut feeling is that this 5% breaks down into something like:
1% equipment
1% technique
1% sauces and pastes
1% recipe refinement
1% mix powder
given the mix powder was quite a surprise my inherent fear of missing a trick has resurfaced (you think you know but you don't) - hence the post
the 5% could be as much as 10% for example although i doubt it. is there a no 6 & 7 say.
thoughts that immediately come to mind that have gone off my radar (the 5% constituents) being:
a) things BIR's do through operation that home cooking would not naturally come across
b) things that are not discarded
i'm essentially after a sanity check so any thoughts much appreciated
Hi Jerry
I completely agree with your comments above and have spent the last couple of days pondering my own errors and techniques in search of answers, I drew some conclusions, made a chicken tikka jalfrezi last night and it was my best effort to date, If I can replicate this time after time then I'm a happy chappie, and will only search for enhancements etc.
My initial thoughts were with the gravy. this time I made ifindforu's enhanced gravy (the best i can interpret it), It came out very good, but in truth wasn't a great deal different to the others i've tried.
I noticed that there isn't a lot of spices going into that gravy, whereas julian seems to put loads in, so my conclusion on that one was, I need more mixed powder in the curries I make, not the half to one tsp as some recipes suggest. (now upped to heaped tsp)
Lesson learnt for me, difficult to get the spicing right using a different base to someones curry recipe, ie check if more mixed powder needed when using a lightly spiced base.
Another thing I noticed is my chef spoon doesn't look as deep as the pro chefs spoons, so added a touch more ingredient when chef's spoon measurements called for.
My kitchen ladle is nowhere near the size of the ones used in all the videos and on close inspection I guestimated about 3 of mine to 1 of theirs (i knew it was smaller but didn't envisage that much). When using 2 ladle fulls to make a curry this is a significant discrepancy.
I used the one (3 of mine) ladle reduction technique and am well happy with the result now :)
All cooked with razor's tip of clothes peg on nose! ;) lol
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Good post Whandsy. I think what you've highlighted here are the inconsistencies that can creep in without us even realising. But when you think about it, these can have a huge impact on the result and what you are trying to achieve. We all think certain people are sometimes a bit anal in their questionning and approach but in reality they are just trying to remove any variables which can only help in achieving consistent results.
Hi Jerry
I completely agree with your comments above and have spent the last couple of days pondering my own errors and techniques in search of answers, I drew some conclusions, made a chicken tikka jalfrezi last night and it was my best effort to date, If I can replicate this time after time then I'm a happy chappie, and will only search for enhancements etc.
Quite a few forum members have been doing some pondering, myself included. It is very much about getting the same result time after time. My conclusion - this aint going to happen by switching gravies and mix powders every five minutes. I therefore need to cook my regular dishes using my chosen base and spice mix only until i produce the same result every time. Only then can i make a change and be able to truly assess the impact of it and whether i get better results by moving to another gravy or spice mix.
My initial thoughts were with the gravy. this time I made ifindforu's enhanced gravy (the best i can interpret it), It came out very good, but in truth wasn't a great deal different to the others i've tried.
I think in general you are right. Many of the gravies are similar, certainly in ingredients although not always in the technique of preparation. Personally i want to do some work on the balance of ingredient and the impact that a change has. When i look at my takeaway leftovers the consistancy of the cold sause is sometimes different to my own efforts, depending on what base i've used. Why? This can only be down to base ingredients. I've looked at pictures of curries i've cooked, madras is a prime example. Depending on what base i've used the appearance and texture is different. Yet all bases got a thorough blitzing from my jug blender and all curries are reduced to a thickish consistency which is how i like it
I noticed that there isn't a lot of spices going into that gravy, whereas julian seems to put loads in, so my conclusion on that one was, I need more mixed powder in the curries I make, not the half to one tsp as some recipes suggest. (now upped to heaped tsp)
I don't hold with the theory that recipes are specifically matched to a base, apart from Panpot's Ashoka collection which departs considerably from the normal BIR practice of one basic gravy. But that doesn't mean all recipes go with any base.
Lesson learnt for me, difficult to get the spicing right using a different base to someones curry recipe, ie check if more mixed powder needed when using a lightly spiced base.
A careful balancing act here, very much driven by the base spicing. My own preference is for a lighter spiced base allowing for greater versatility in the final cooking stages. A heavier spiced base will be more difficult to influence
Another thing I noticed is my chef spoon doesn't look as deep as the pro chefs spoons, so added a touch more ingredient when chef's spoon measurements called for.
My kitchen ladle is nowhere near the size of the ones used in all the videos and on close inspection I guestimated about 3 of mine to 1 of theirs (i knew it was smaller but didn't envisage that much). When using 2 ladle fulls to make a curry this is a significant discrepancy.
An easy oversight but what a difference this can make. And when realised and corrected
I used the one (3 of mine) ladle reduction technique and am well happy with the result now :)
:D :D :D
All cooked with razor's tip of clothes peg on nose! ;) lol
I wish i'd done this last night. Maybe it would have helped me reach some sort of conclusion on whether Abdul's madras was or was not better for the use of Ifindforu's spice mix ???. But that's another story and god forbid i'd post comments in the wrong section of the forum :o ;D
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Cheers CH
Funny you mentioned tom puree in your other post, and last night for the 1st time I used approx 1 heaped tsp straight from the tube as I normally dilute it.
I guess we're all looking for the same answers ;D
Wayne
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Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway
None of those are issues for me.
I know Bruce Edwards is a big advocate of freshly made base gravy and he never freezes his. I've conducted a test with a freshly made batch and frozen and could tell no discernible difference between them. For me, I've discounted this as an issue.
Regarding fresh spices, I only ever buy whole spices for the vast majority of the spices I need and either roast and grind, or simply grind as and when they're needed to ensure maximum freshness. That includes chilli powder, which I make up my own blend from whole dried chillis. The only pre ground spices I buy are Turmeric, which is kinda difficult to buy whole and grind yourself and Paprika. All the others are always bought whole and I make up and grind my own Garam Masala as well.
Preground spices lose their pungency pretty quickly, whereas whole spices do not.
So again for me, this is not an issue as I'm using the freshest spices I can.
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Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway
None of those are issues for me.
I know Bruce Edwards is a big advocate of freshly made base gravy and he never freezes his. I've conducted a test with a freshly made batch and frozen and could tell no discernible difference between them. For me, I've discounted this as an issue.
Regarding fresh spices, I only ever buy whole spices for the vast majority of the spices I need and either roast and grind, or simply grind as and when they're needed to ensure maximum freshness. That includes chilli powder, which I make up my own blend from whole dried chillis. The only pre ground spices I buy are Turmeric, which is kinda difficult to buy whole and grind yourself and Paprika. All the others are always bought whole and I make up and grind my own Garam Masala as well.
Preground spices lose their pungency pretty quickly, whereas whole spices do not.
So again for me, this is not an issue as I'm using the freshest spices I can.
Good to read you had positive results with your side by side frozen vs fresh Base 8)
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen :) IMO ;)
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Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen :) IMO
So let me get this right.
Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?
Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.
It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh. If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.
But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.
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Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen :) IMO
So let me get this right.
Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?
Yes, we need to be as exact as we can when trying to emulate the BIR Curry even down to using the same make of spices that your favourite T/A uses, Rajah.Natco,Trs etc and Ifindforu has named Jalpur Garam Masala as a 'must have' also the Eastern Star Curry Powder seems interesting.
Yes stale spices could be a factor in the missing 5% and we should keep this in mind as we seem so close to ' the taste', using home roasted and ground spices I don't believe is the way forward.
Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.
Correct.
It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh.
Correct.
If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.
I buy my ground spices in 100gm packs two or three at a time rather than have a larger bag opened and hanging around losing flavour, I do have some spices that I rarely use but luckily these are whole spices.
But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.
Good luck grinding your Coconuts if you ever make a Korma ;) :)
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Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ??? ;D
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Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen :) IMO
So let me get this right.
Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?
Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.
It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh. If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.
But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.
Spicey, you seem very apt at telling everyone what they are doing wrong in you're opinion, or having a fantastic opinion on how things should be cooked or spices stored, whether it be fresh and grinded or pre ground and stored....
This forum has advanced over the years by a lot of people doing a lot of hard work in producing "BIR" food to the best of their abilities and helping others to achieve better results.....
Maybe it's time to put you're money where you're mouth is and start producing these amazing curries that you are archieving with all you're freshly ground spices etc etc and post some recipes along with pictures for everyone else to judge!!
We eagerly await..... :)
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Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ??? ;D
LOL I am sure Spicey has!!! ;D
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Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ??? ;D
LOL I am sure Spicey has!!! ;D
I was too good an opportunity not to miss. I just could not bite my tongue any longer ::) ::)
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This forum has advanced over the years by a lot of people doing a lot of hard work in producing "BIR" food to the best of their abilities and helping others to achieve better results.....
It certainly has that. All credit to those members, past and present, who have made a huge contribution to this site. Through their hard work, tenacity, determination and being prepared to spend their own time to do the reseach, be it at home or if fortunate enough in a BIR kitchen, has resulted in many people being able to cook some very good food BIR food. There is no better place to learn BIR cooking than this forum unless you're fortunate enough to be tutored by a real BIR chef over a long period of time.
Maybe it's time to put you're money where you're mouth is and start producing these amazing curries that you are archieving with all you're freshly ground spices etc etc and post some recipes along with pictures for everyone else to judge!!
We eagerly await..... :)
But wouldn't that be "monkey see monkey do" ;D
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Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ??? ;D
Given that garlic powder (or coconut powder for that matter) is not considered a spice per se, I fail to see the relevance of this apart from your obvious flippancy.
If you don't agree with an opinion, why not say so and give your reasons for why, instead of being flippant and adding nothing to the discussion.
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Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ??? ;D
Given that garlic powder (or coconut powder for that matter) is not considered a spice per se, I fail to see the relevance of this apart from your obvious flippancy.
If you don't agree with an opinion, why not say so and give your reasons for why, instead of being flippant and adding nothing to the discussion.
Sorry for the flippancy but i prefer it to being down right rude and obnoxious as you so frequently are to others ;) I would add a lot more to the discussion but i'd better not because it would take this thread even further off topic than it is currenlty. Suffice it to say i do like most members here have an opinion but from the threads i've read to which you've contributed, you're really not interested in anybody's other than your own.
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Spicey, you seem very apt at telling everyone what they are doing wrong in you're opinion
No, I've merely expressed an opinion with regards to a methodology of ensuring spices are used as fresh as possible. I don't recall telling anyone anywhere that what they're doing is wrong. But please point out where I have.
...or having a fantastic opinion on how things should be cooked or spices stored, whether it be fresh and grinded or pre ground and stored....
I'm flattered you think my opinions are 'fantastic'. They are as I've previously stated, my own personal opinion, or my own personal viewpoint and as such I believe I am entitled to express an opinion. What others choose to do is entirely their prerogative.
Maybe it's time to put you're money where you're mouth is and start producing these amazing curries that you are archieving with all you're freshly ground spices etc etc and post some recipes along with pictures for everyone else to judge!!
I'm perfectly happy with the quality of dishes I produce using the methods, techniques and ingredients I've always used apart from the BIR style dishes missing that 'smokey' flavour that I have stated elsewhere. I also cook my dishes for friends and family to try and I have also posted their feedback on them in other threads.
I have no intention whatsoever of posting any recipe on here just so people like you can rubbish and belittle it as you so obviously want to do.
I'm not convinced in my own mind that copying exactly the brands of preground spices that some BIR Restaurants may use is the answer my own final 5% (and I'm not convinced that it would constitute that for others either) for the reasons I've given within this thread.
If you disagree with those reasons, please feel free to express your own opinion as to why.
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Suffice it to say i do like most members here have an opinion but from the threads i've read to which you've contributed, you're really not interested in anybody's other than your own.
On the contrary, I'm very interested in others opinions that I believe have merit. I will however continue to challenge other views and opinions I consider to be either incorrect, based on misinformation or simply dogmatic. I also expect people to defend their views with logic and reason rather than simply..."I saw Abdul the BIR Master Chef do it and I'm copying him".
If you don't like my views, opinions or how they're expressed - please don't read them or respond to them.
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If you don't like my views, opinions or how they're expressed - please don't read them or respond to them.
Until today i hadn't. Must have a moment of weakness >:( But this has now passed and i'll go back to ignoring them ;)
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If you don't like my views, opinions or how they're expressed - please don't read them or respond to them.
Until today i hadn't. Must have a moment of weakness >:( But this has now passed and i'll go back to ignoring them ;)
Here here Curryhell!! :)
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If you don't like my views, opinions or how they're expressed - please don't read them or respond to them.
Until today i hadn't. Must have a moment of weakness >:( But this has now passed and i'll go back to ignoring them ;)
Here here Curryhell!! :)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/7d704772dc2f6ec1bbf751303b3e79d4.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#7d704772dc2f6ec1bbf751303b3e79d4.jpg)
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Hi Jerry,
Couple of things to add to the discussion so far.
In terms of the chef's being able to recreate gravies at home and in smaller quantity, they can. The chef I work with at times does a market stall on the weekends. For this he knocks up a gravy at home the night before, he lives in a small apartment with well less then restaurant standard equipment. You can taste no difference in what he has made at home to what made in the restaurant.
Further to this, at the market stall he makes the buffet dishes ( he will make 3-4 curries for sale ) in an electric fry pan, and again they taste as good as if made in the restaurant. One time he had none of the whole spices to go in and it still tasted fantastic.
So certainly for Aussie indian curry style of things it is possible to do at home.
Now here is the big secret, and unfortunately it is not what we want to hear.
When he makes the gravy and the final dishes, he tastes it, and he knows what is missing or needed to fix it. He may have used a different brand of tomato puree which is more sour, or bottled garlic instead of fresh, or the cumin powder might have been roasted and is stronger etc.
Same with the onions, they might be stronger in flavor etc, but he with his expertise/experience knows what to do to correct it.
Unfortunately that is something that only comes with years of experience, I still have to get him to taste the gravies that I make following exactly the same recipe each time, but at times he will adjust things.
Hope that doesn't put too much of a dampener on things.
Cheers,
Mark
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Good post Masala Mark and certainly something to think about. I think when ifindforu posted his previous BIR base recipe he did say at the end of cooking taste check and adjust salt, coconut, jaggery levels to taste. Perhaps he has witnessed this at the place he works.
Cheers,
Paul
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Hi Jerry,
Couple of things to add to the discussion so far.
In terms of the chef's being able to recreate gravies at home and in smaller quantity, they can. The chef I work with at times does a market stall on the weekends. For this he knocks up a gravy at home the night before, he lives in a small apartment with well less then restaurant standard equipment. You can taste no difference in what he has made at home to what made in the restaurant.
Further to this, at the market stall he makes the buffet dishes ( he will make 3-4 curries for sale ) in an electric fry pan, and again they taste as good as if made in the restaurant. One time he had none of the whole spices to go in and it still tasted fantastic.
So certainly for Aussie indian curry style of things it is possible to do at home.
Now here is the big secret, and unfortunately it is not what we want to hear.
When he makes the gravy and the final dishes, he tastes it, and he knows what is missing or needed to fix it. He may have used a different brand of tomato puree which is more sour, or bottled garlic instead of fresh, or the cumin powder might have been roasted and is stronger etc.
Same with the onions, they might be stronger in flavor etc, but he with his expertise/experience knows what to do to correct it.
Unfortunately that is something that only comes with years of experience, I still have to get him to taste the gravies that I make following exactly the same recipe each time, but at times he will adjust things.
Hope that doesn't put too much of a dampener on things.
Cheers,
Mark
I think that is spot on. If you look at any decent restaurant, whether it be BIR or other any top chef will taste the dish before serving.... :)
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I've recently got into Roasting my own Coffee Beans and have noticed that Beans that are much over a week old after Roasting have lost quite a lot of their flavour and Aroma when ground and a Coffee made.
Can you tell us more about how you roast your beans, Emin-J ? For two or more decades we had a branch of Importers Ltd in Bromley High Street (Bromley, Kent, not Bromley, Bow) and the smell of those roasting beans was to die for. I have tried roasting at home, but never achieved either consistency or results that justified the effort, so as a coffee addict and a monsooned Malabar aficionado, I'd love to be able to roast the green beans to perfection and have freshly roast coffee every day.
** Phil.
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If you then cook your pizza in a wood fired oven at the correct temperature you should get the perfect pizza crust - crispy on the outside and soft and chewy on the inside.
Do you know if Pizza Express use wood fired ovens? I agree with you that their Pizzas are very good.
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When he makes the gravy and the final dishes, he tastes it, and he knows what is missing or needed to fix it.
I know this is a top tip - I've heard it mentioned time and time again by top chefs on TV. I also agree it needs skill and experience to appreciate what you're tasting and know if anything needs to be added or somehow corrected.
One problem is that recipes only tend to go as far as a statement like 'adjust seasoning' (at the end). They don't even say what seasoning, exactly, let alone suggest other stages within the recipe where you might check how things are going, and correct as you progress.
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I've recently got into Roasting my own Coffee Beans and have noticed that Beans that are much over a week old after Roasting have lost quite a lot of their flavour and Aroma when ground and a Coffee made.
Can you tell us more about how you roast your beans, Emin-J ? For two or more decades we had a branch of Importers Ltd in Bromley High Street (Bromley, Kent, not Bromley, Bow) and the smell of those roasting beans was to die for. I have tried roasting at home, but never achieved either consistency or results that justified the effort, so as a coffee addict and a monsooned Malabar aficionado, I'd love to be able to roast the green beans to perfection and have freshly roast coffee every day.
** Phil.
Hi Phil, To stay on topic my New Year Resolution was to roast my own coffee beans but I started early ;)
Being up for a challenge (curry or otherwise :)) I thought I would do a bit of research into how successful roasting beans at home could be without breaking the Bank and found that certain popcorn 'poppers' can do a cracking (no pun intended) job so bought a Severin PC3751 popper and some of my favourite beans in their green state and followed some video's on youtube - and very successful it's bean ;D
This is the machine in action blowing the chaff into the sink while it roasts the beans.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6bd2c2abb7d9a556da39a6e4d9380d87.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#6bd2c2abb7d9a556da39a6e4d9380d87.jpg)
And this is my first effort - (pre roasted bought beans in the centre )
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/46b4a52a2badcf5794d4363164e83f03.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#46b4a52a2badcf5794d4363164e83f03.jpg)
Cant get fresher Coffee than that ! ;)
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Sorry guys but i can't multi task. I can only concentrate on cracking one thing at a time. Curry or coffee, coffee or curry. Curry wins hands down ;D. Besides i'd much rather have a bottle of Cobra with my curry than a cup of coffee :P . How did the taste comparison go??
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Sorry guys but i can't multi task. I can only concentrate on cracking one thing at a time. Curry or coffee, coffee or curry. Curry wins hands down ;D. Besides i'd much rather have a bottle of Cobra with my curry than a cup of coffee :P . How did the taste comparison go??
Excellent CH 8)
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I don't mean to sound smug here but, I do taste, taste, taste all the way through? Usually, it's quite easy to adjust the dish as long as you know what to use when making the adjustments for example; Lack of salt, add more (a pinch at a time) not sweet enough, add some sugar (a pinch at a time).
The problem arises when the dish isn't sour enough, which souring agent do you add? You could add lemon but if you don't want a lemon flavour, then that isn't going to work. Amchoor could be used as could tamarind but you need to know what flavour these ingredients impart, that for me, is the trickiest part.
When using ingredients such as tomatoes and onions is vital to taste test, as the strength of these veggies (I know toms are fruits :P) can vary immensely.
I'm glad this came up because now it makes me wonder how many of us have tried a recipe to spec, a bit like a monkey sees, monkey does ;) approach but have resisted a taste until the dish is on the table?
Very good point, well made Mark
Ray :)
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I don't mean to sound smug here but, I do taste, taste, taste all the way through? Usually, it's quite easy to adjust the dish as long as you know what to use when making the adjustments for example; Lack of salt, add more (a pinch at a time) not sweet enough, add some sugar (a pinch at a time).
The problem arises when the dish isn't sour enough, which souring agent do you add? You could add lemon but if you don't want a lemon flavour, then that isn't going to work. Amchoor could be used as could tamarind but you need to know what flavour these ingredients impart, that for me, is the trickiest part.
When using ingredients such as tomatoes and onions is vital to taste test, as the strength of these veggies (I know toms are fruits :P) can vary immensely.
I'm glad this came up because now it makes me wonder how many of us have tried a recipe to spec, a bit like a monkey sees, monkey does ;) approach but have resisted a taste until the dish is on the table?
Very good point, well made Mark
Ray :)
I agree with the theory on that 100% but in practice for me at least, the most enjoyable thing about your own curry (and T/A for that matter) is that very first taste and the OMG that's good moment. For my taste buds if I was taste taste taste prior to serving then once it was on the table i'd be less interested, like the spice overload thing :'(
What I've been doing recently is making my curry blind and enjoying it, then experiment with remaining gravy / GG / tom puree / powders etc. Then at least I've enjoyed the moment before learning lessons.
Wayne
But maybe that's just me ;)
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Wayne,
I can totally understand that and can't disagree in any way whatsoever. The first mouthful is the thing that you/we spend all day in the kitchen for ;D
I'm ok when I'm using 'constant' ingredients such as the same batch of base, spice mix and so on but I'm always wary on a new batch or a new tin of tom paste, where variables can be introduced, if you catch mi drift?
Ray :)
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much appreciate the thoughts. i'm pretty sure consequently that my effort should continue as planned delving deeper into the ashoka mains.
for what it's worth have added my thoughts on the ideas raised:
1) frozen base - i've never done and have no plans (my local BIR cooks fresh)
2) fresh spices - yes but not a step difference
3) base spice - there must be 2 approaches in the trade - heavy and light. it accounts for the discrepancies in spicing at dish frying ie large and small amounts of mix powder ie tbsps c/w tsps.
a few yes yes yes for sure:
4) ladle reduction
5) use std base and ingredients until same result everytime
6) balance of base ingredient and impact of change
7) need to know what flavour ingredients impart
8 ) ?he makes the gravy and the final dishes, he tastes it, and he knows what is missing or needed to fix it? = "taste as good as if made in the restaurant". i'm certainly 100% on the 1st statement and can go along with the "=" to an extent.
for me there's a sort of related question i often ask myself. i know the likes of CTM "cream/sugar" dishes are cooked slow boat in BIR but find a personal reluctance and always hot fry. avoiding "heat drop" and "pan of flames" are the 2 things i have most on my mind when cooking.
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3) base spice - there must be 2 approaches in the trade - heavy and light. it accounts for the discrepancies in spicing at dish frying ie large and small amounts of mix powder ie tbsps c/w tsps.
Definately, I learned how to cook spices from the low spiced KD1 base. Far more to do at the cooking stage using that base, if you want a decent curry ( I deliberately burned the spices to train myself to pick up 'burned' when it happened :))
I'm concentrating solely on the base now & adjusting the final taste, to something that I want to taste in the final dish. I can taste coconut if used , whereas some people can only smell it. If i don't like something in the base, I won't like it in the final dish.
I'm now looking at:
Stock in the base, fresh or otherwise. I'v never beeen in a bir kitchen, but i'm almost sure it features in Glsgow bir's. I can pick out alot of ingredients in a bir dish, but not the one that provides the 'zing'(it's very stock like)
Finding out the difference in flavour of the catering curry powders(10KG), as there are brands & blends in the c&c's, which have no retail ranges
Testing one of my local bir's home cooked(desi) equivalents(bhoona/karahi), if there is no base used, to compare
I'm pretty close to square 1 now! ;D
Regards
ELW
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3) base spice - there must be 2 approaches in the trade - heavy and light. it accounts for the discrepancies in spicing at dish frying ie large and small amounts of mix powder ie tbsps c/w tsps.
This is something I've been pondering for a while now.
I'm going to try an oil-less and spice-less base gravy to test out a few theories I've got with regards to base gravy spicing. I want to remove the spicing from the base and put it back in when 1/ pre-cooking the meat and 2/ cooking the finished dish so I have total control over exactly what and how much spicing goes into the finished dish.
The results could be quite interesting.
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spiceyokooko,
will be keen to know how you get on.
i think the spicing is even more complicated that anyone would naturally think - ie a head line figure is no good. although this is what i work on (the amount of spice in relation to the onions) i think some spice can almost be ignored whilst others are quite critical. for example i think turmeric, paprika and chilli can be excluded. i think whole spice can also be excluded. this for me leaves coriander and cumin as the key differentiators.
it's an area we've not really worked on enough.
i think say dipuraja's base is light spice - my headline is 1.6% (30ml in 1000g onion). the saffron is heavy 4.6% (110 ml in 1250g onion). the only BIR base i've tasted was heavy but looking at a lot of BIR (open kitchen serving counter) most looks very light spice.
all interesting stuff
on the oil i feel it's simple. the minimum being around 7% (based on onion volume or as example 100ml in 800g onion).