Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: Unclefrank on December 16, 2011, 08:51 PM
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I know this has been asked before but what is the general amount/measurements for a chefs spoon when doing a recipe. How many tbsp does everybody stick to when a chefs spoon is asked for in a recipe.
Thanks.
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I know this has been asked before but what is the general amount/measurements for a chefs spoon when doing a recipe. How many tbsp does everybody stick to when a chefs spoon is asked for in a recipe.
Thanks.
Some would say four and some three so somewhere in the middle is close ;D
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Cheers CH so about 3.5 tbsp. I asked this question because some recipes only have chefs spoon as a measurement.
What do you usually use for a chefs spoon (and dont say a chefs spoon ;D)
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My chefs spoon holds a smidgen over 4 tbsp
barry
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My Serving (Chefs) spoon = 50ml (level spoonful of liquid) = just over 3 tblsp (3 1/3)
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Hi UF,
My chefspoon, which is one of the long handled ones that you see in the TA's, holds just over 2 tbsp of water. Something more viscose, it would probably hold very close to 3 tbsp?
Agian, if I was using it for powder such as spices, salt sugar and so on, it could easily manage 4 tbsp (heaped of course)
Ray :)
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Thanks guys, so 3 heaped tbsp should do it then?
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Thanks guys, so 3 heaped tbsp should do it then?
God only knows! How long is a piece of string? I always thought a chef's spoon was about 4 tbls only to find that the one I bought today (the first chef's spoon I've ever had) holds just 2.5 tbls of liquid, if that.
Heaped measures strike me as a daft and very inaccurate way of passing on quantities for recipes. It will vary from person to person. Measurements in grams would be so much better.
What's even worse is when someone implies they mean level spoon measures (possibly the normal convention in the UK) but actually mean heaped measures.
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George,
I always thought a chef's spoon was about 4 tbls only to find that the one I bought today (the first chef's spoon I've ever had) holds just 2.5 tbls of liquid, if that.
Yep, and that's what I get with my chefspoon too. Members that report their chefspoons as holding 4tbs, must have them mixed up with a garden trowel :D
Ray :)
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Oh this modern world ::) ::) ::) ::)
There are Gulls which are called Seagulls No such thing common ,black headed etc why? ::)
There are Bass which are now called Sea Bass why? ::)
There are spoons which chefs use now being called Chefs Spoons why? ::)
They are "Serving spoons" all of different sizes and shapes to be" trendy "
I am glad I don't use one ;)
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Oh this modern world ::) ::) ::) ::)
There are Gulls which are called Seagulls No such thing common ,black headed etc why? ::)
There are Bass which are now called Sea Bass why? ::)
There are spoons which chefs use now being called Chefs Spoons why? ::)
They are "Serving spoons" all of different sizes and shapes to be" trendy "
I am glad I don't use one ;)
The trouble is that there is a massive difference between 2.5tbsp and 4tbsp, and this difference can and will completely change the shape of a dish. I do wonder how many recipes I've tried and been disappointed with due to me thinking that a chef's spoon = 4tbsp - probably quite a few.
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Oh this modern world ::) ::) ::) ::)
There are Gulls which are called Seagulls No such thing common ,black headed etc why? ::)
There are Bass which are now called Sea Bass why? ::)
There are spoons which chefs use now being called Chefs Spoons why? ::)
They are "Serving spoons" all of different sizes and shapes to be" trendy "
I am glad I don't use one ;)
The trouble is that there is a massive difference between 2.5tbsp and 4tbsp, and this difference can and will completely change the shape of a dish. I do wonder how many recipes I've tried and been disappointed with due to me thinking that a chef's spoon = 4tbsp - probably quite a few.
Agree totally I always use measures then when I pass recipes on to friends they follow and get what they expect
not a "shovel of this and a dollop of that"
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I ask because made C2G Madras recipe and his recipe asks for a chefs spoon of tom puree so i used my spoon (which looked indentical to his) and i must say it was very tomatoey didnt like it much and ended up throwing it away (not Julians fault mine really i should have known it was to much).
In the "Undercover Curry" book:-
1 curry spoon standard dip is three quarters of a teaspoon
1 level curry tsp is 4 tsp
1 curry spoon scoop is 10 tsp
So what conclusion can we get from this?
So it ranges from 4 tsp to 4tbsp.
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I agree UF, when I made ifindforu's base last night a lot of ingredients are listed in chef spoons or parts of.
I was assuming 1 chef spoon = 4 tablespoons.
This could lead to big errors if wrong.
Cheers,
Paul
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The trouble is that there is a massive difference between 2.5tbsp and 4tbsp, and this difference can and will completely change the shape of a dish. I do wonder how many recipes I've tried and been disappointed with due to me thinking that a chef's spoon = 4tbsp - probably quite a few.
I couldn't agree more. And it's not the only problem or challenge we have as a forum. There are several other issues, like people giving "options" within a recipe they say is the ultimate dish. How can there be options? They only use one ingredient, if the aim is to get the very best flavour. Anyway, there seems only a remote chance of 'replicating' many/most recipes on this site, to recreate what the author had in mind. As for replicating what goes on in a BIR, well that's something else...
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My Restaurant Chefs Spoon is 3Tbs - measured with accurate measuring spoons
Just a point, when actually cooking, a Bengali Chef just uses his own skill and judgement
with a Chef's spoon, plus his hands with pinch's and handfuls as measurements. NO EXACT QUANTITIES.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8477653d90997d6fae511107d7c07711.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8477653d90997d6fae511107d7c07711.jpg)
cheers Chewy
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My Restaurant Chefs Spoon is 3Tbs - measured with accurate measuring spoons
Just a point, when actually cooking, a Bengali Chef just uses his own skill and judgement
with a Chef's spoon, plus his hands with pinch's and handfuls as measurements. NO EXACT QUANTITIES.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8477653d90997d6fae511107d7c07711.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8477653d90997d6fae511107d7c07711.jpg)
cheers Chewy
Hi Chewy
I agree that a BIR chef could get it right blindfolded and standing on his head with a Camel between his legs
Thats why I think its important to get the exact proportions in the 1st place
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Yes, it is a problem when reading a recipe that asks for a chefspoon, and I'm guilty of this too. I would say this though, my chefspoon was purchased from my local Asian cash & carry and does look identical to what Julian uses, to what Dipuraja uses and many other videos that I've seen..!
That in itself does not in any way justify my choice of stating a 'chefspoon' in a recipe as there could well be a slight difference in volume but, my chefspoon holds just over 2.5 tbs of liquid such as water. It would probably hold 3 tbs of something more viscose such as gg paste. I'd guess it would be getting close to 4 tbs for powders and flour and more like 5 tbs for pastes such as kashmiri masala or tomato paste.
So, if some members chefspoons can hold 4 tbs of water, then using my measurements above, they could hold close on 10 tbs (150ml) of tomato paste..! Really, because that is some chefspoon?
I've actually got a domestic chef/serving spoon and even though visually it looks bigger (wider) it holds exactly the same as my long handled chefspoon.
I'd be interested to see what other members actually get if they measure their spoons using the ingredients that I've suggested above...!
Ray :)
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Mine are as follows
(Short Handle) Small Spoon holds 34ml
(Long handled) Big Spoon holds 53ml
ALL measured with water.
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I'm with those who stick to level tsp or tbsp of ingredients. Much simpler.
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Anyway, there seems only a remote chance of 'replicating' many/most recipes on this site, to recreate what the author had in mind. As for replicating what goes on in a BIR, well that's something else...
I agree George, well said.
The forum is useful if chaotic and haphazard and is a minefield for new members to negotiate. The introduction of a constantly variable measurement system such as a chef's spoon just makes it even worse. This is just part of this 'monkey see's monkey does' cooking philosophy that seems to pervade here that I so object to.
I can well understand why a professional cook in a BIR kitchen may give a 'guideline' measurement system of chef's spoons, because that's what they use in day to day professional practice - they don't know what the exact measurements are.
As chewytikka rightly points out, their ability to use this measurement system is born out of expediency, convenience and years of practice of cooking dishes that they know the right quantities to use by instinct. A chef's spoon for them is merely a cooking implement they use to cook the dish and 'spoon' ingredients into it. The measurement of those ingredients is being done by eye and experience.
God only knows why home cooks would want to adopt this system with all the variables it involves over and above merely trying to emulate a professional cook but without the ability or experience to go with it.
Any recipe given here which uses chef's spoons as a measurement can only be viewed as a 'guide measurement' and it's down to the individual cook to vary the measurements by trial, error, experience and feel and by tasting the results over and over again until the recipe is understood.
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As chewytikka rightly points out, their ability to use this measurement system is born out of expediency, convenience and years of practice of cooking dishes that they know the right quantities to use by instinct. A chef's spoon for them is merely a cooking implement they use to cook the dish and 'spoon' ingredients into it. The measurement of those ingredients is being done by eye and experience.
God only knows why home cooks would want to adopt this system with all the variables it involves over and above merely trying to emulate a professional cook but without the ability or experience to go with it.
I like your thinking! Including a few points you've made in earlier threads. Yes, nobody can doubt the skills of a BIR chef but, as a means of indicating quantities, it beggars belief how that "Undercover" chap, Dave, thought it was an acceptable way of writing a book and writing down recipes. It was plain daft. The only reason I bought one of those chefs spoons, was (a) to check the quantity held for myself, and what an eye-opener, and (b) for pure theatrics if I ever make any videos of curry cooking for youtube.
The best way might be to get a chef (only a top 20% of BIRs chef, mind you) to "imagine" he's making a dish but, instead of chucking spices directly into a hot pan, to deposit them first in a series of dry vessels so the quantities can be measured in grams. Or some other method for reasonably accurate measurement.
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Guy's,
Let's not get too hung up about the chefspoon. I mean, how many recipes on here ask you to use a sixth of a chefspoon for this or an eighth of a chefspoon for that, none that I can think of? The only time a chefspoon is mentioned in a recipe on here, is for the inclusion of a 'larger than a tbs' amount of ingredients? Usually, those ingredients include, base gravy, diluted tom puree/paste, oil, chopped onion/pepper, nothing that's really going to drastically alter the flavour if you go over or under by a couple of grams/ml
I would be more worried for instance, if an Australian member, born and bred, was posting recipes using tbs as their unit of choice and were expecting recipe followers to read their tbs as 20ml when infact, we (Brits) seem to have adopted 15ml as our measurement for a tbs. An extra 5ml of spice masala, chilli powder, GG paste is going to make so much more difference to the flavour of any dish than a few extra ml of oil, diluted tom puree, chopped onion/pepper or base gravy...!
This is just part of this 'monkey sees monkey does' cooking philosophy that seems to pervade here that I so object to.
I'm getting a bit pissed off with this phrase being banded about in the way that it is. The "monkey sees, monkey does" method is how we learn, grow, develop, progress. It is what makes us human, primate even. Why do you insist on using this term as though it is some kind of inferior approach on things? It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?
You say that that method pervades here? How do you know that it does, based on a few members accounts of how they have said that they do things, from time to time?
I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all. This monkey did it because he saw another monkey do it, but more importantly, this monkey wanted to know why the other monkey did it that way. Now this monkey thinks he knows why, and is glad he saw the other monkey do it first. Many thanks Chewymonkey ;D So as you see, you have to start with the method that you so object to, to gain further understanding, especially, if the knowledge is not readily on offer from the ever elusive BIR's and TA's.
Spicey, did you not join this forum in the hope of finding the ultimate curry recipe? If so, then are you not just as guilty of hoping to use the "monkey sees, monkey does" approach? Or did you join knowing that the recipes, methods, techniques and level of experience would not be upto your high standards?
Ray
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I'm getting a bit pissed off with this phrase being banded about in the way that it is. The "monkey sees, monkey does" method is how we learn, grow, develop, progress. It is what makes us human, primate even. Why do you insist on using this term as though it is some kind of inferior approach on things? It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?
Calm down - it's only a forum! Seriously though, I'm sure we all get 'pissed off' with some folks' pet phrases on here. You know how much 'real good' irritates the hell out of me but I've given up trying to give remedial English lessons more than every so often, like earlier today. I suggest the Monkey phrase has served a very useful purpose - to raise the profile of one of several key issues at this forum that, in my opinion, are holding too many people back.
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I'm getting a bit pissed off with this phrase being banded about in the way that it is. The "monkey sees, monkey does" method is how we learn, grow, develop, progress. It is what makes us human, primate even. Why do you insist on using this term as though it is some kind of inferior approach on things? It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?
You say that that method pervades here? How do you know that it does, based on a few members accounts of how they have said that they do things, from time to time?
I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all. This monkey did it because he saw another monkey do it, but more importantly, this monkey wanted to know why the other monkey did it that way. Now this monkey thinks he knows why, and is glad he saw the other monkey do it first. Many thanks Chewymonkey ;D So as you see, you have to start with the method that you so object to, to gain further understanding, especially, if the knowledge is not readily on offer from the ever elusive BIR's and TA's.
Spicey, did you not join this forum in the hope of finding the ultimate curry recipe? If so, then are you not just as guilty of hoping to use the "monkey sees, monkey does" approach? Or did you join knowing that the recipes, methods, techniques and level of experience would not be upto your high standards?
Ray
From one monkey to another Ray, not excluding all the other monkeys on here - well said. I wasn't going to lower myself again but i have. :(. Funny how the "monkey see monkey do" approach works in life though. As a child i didn't pour boiling water over my hand cos i was told it would hurt. So monkey didn't, thankfully. I didn't need the science explained to me at the time. I learnt that later. I didn't need to learn all the gramatical terminology for the components of a sentence or how to use them before i started to speak not just English but also French and Spanish and German. But i did learn all this later on because i chose to and it interested and helped my understanding of how languages work. Pretty much like cooking. I was more than happy for someone to show me how to cook BIR food. That's all i wanted. I didn't need the understanding of blending spices etc etc etc at the time. If enough real interest is there, the desire for further understanding will emerge. I do so hope the continued pompous belittling remarks do not put newer members off, since common courtesy and politeness are well off the radar and derrogatory remarks rule. I'd sooner be a monkey ;D
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wonder who's gonna be first to post a curried monkey vindaloo or a monkey bhuna :)
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wonder who's gonna be first to post a curried monkey vindaloo or a monkey bhuna :)
Mr M. I really don't need ideas like that putting in my head, cos (sorry George) i just know i'm now not going to be able to resist entitling a post as such ??? ;)
Ray, now look what you've made me do >:(. I'm completely off topic
To get this back on track:
My chef's spoon same looking as most - 2 1/2 tbsp (@15ml) using water.
;)
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I don't have a chef's spoon. I don't have an aluminium frying pan apparently identical to those used in BIRs. I don't have an 8kW blast furnace, or even a gas hob. But I can still cook a Chicken Madras and a Pulao rice that are the equal of most BIRs and better than some. What am I doing wrong ?
Puzzled of Chainhurst.
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I don't have a chef's spoon. I don't have an aluminium frying pan apparently identical to those used in BIRs. I don't have an 8kW blast furnace, or even a gas hob. But I can still cook a Chicken Madras and a Pulao rice that are the equal of most BIRs and better than some. What am I doing wrong ?
Puzzled of Chainhurst.
i have chefs spoon...but i'm not a chef
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;D ;) ::) - nice one guys. I'm lost for words.
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This was me last night, experimenting with a banana curry;
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/41f3a4e3ff47684e1807f9687d2447bc.png)
recipe to follow ::) ;)
Ray ;D
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yeah, poor old cheeta :(
smokin and drinkin into his 70's :P
he will be sadly missed(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/74be28ed663c89aec09ac42d3420006d.jpg)
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This was me last night, experimenting with a banana curry;
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/41f3a4e3ff47684e1807f9687d2447bc.png)
recipe to follow ::) ;)
Ray ;D
I just knew i recognised you from somewhere Ray ;D ;)
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i got a chefs spoon too...whoopedoo :)
....doesn't make me a chef
same as I got a pair of Adidas trainers
....doesn't mean i can run a marathon
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i got a chefs spoon too...whoopedoo :)
....doesn't make me a chef
same as I got a pair of Adidas trainers
....doesn't mean i can run a marathon
....swiss army knife?
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It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?
It's not a logical approach to things at all, it's learning by 'mimicry' and not by 'understanding'.
You see a BIR Chef put a 1/4 chef spoon of white powder into his base gravy - what are you going to put into yours by copying him? How do you know what flavour or effect he's trying to achieve if you don't know what it is? It could be a ground spice like garlic or fenugreek powder which will alter the flavour of the dish. It could be a seasoning such as salt, it could be a flavour enhancer such as MSG, it could even be a thickening agent such as cornflour or even plain white flour. How do you know?
How does copying him without the understanding of what he's putting in his dish help you to replicate the same effect or flavour he's getting or trying to achieve? Or are you so good, that you know by instinct and experience what it is?
How do you know that it does, based on a few members accounts of how they have said that they do things, from time to time?
First of all, I said 'it seems to be'. That's not a definitive statement either way, but it is the over-riding impression I get based on reading through many of the threads here. Clearly there's people here who cook by understanding, knowledge and experience but the majority merely seem to copy them, without really understanding what it is that they're doing.
One of the reasons I hold that view is because of the sheer number of people here who think it's perfectly acceptable practice to take a base gravy from one person and combine it with a 'spice mix' from someone else. Why? What logic is there in introducing so many uncontrollable variables? Does it not occur to people that base gravy's are designed to work with the spice mix's that go with them?
Curryhell's recent 'supposed' comparison of ifindforu's spice mix (designed to work with his own base gravy) and Ashoka's Spice Mix (designed to work with Ashoka's base gravy) is a good example of this which produced fairly inconclusive results. Yeah I wonder why? What logic (or usefulness) is there in using one base gravy to test two different spice mix's when the predominant flavour of the dish is produced by the base gravy and the spice mix is used to fine tune the final dish?
Someone commented on that thread they were surprised that the two spice mix's produced such similar results - well there's your answer why. What's even more laughable about that comparison is the way Curryhell so tightly controlled the timing of cooking both dishes to try and remove any variables, yet completely ignores the funadamental problem of using the same base gravy to compare one spice mix designed to be used with it and one that wasn't! No wonder then that the results were inconclusive - like so many results here. Hopeless.
I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all.
You do it, because you know with 100% certainty, logically and by deductive reasoning that most if not all BIR Curry base gravy's use boiled onions, garlic and ginger as their predominant ingredients. You don't have to see someone else using these ingredients to know why to use them. After all, you wouldn't try and make a base gravy out of water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt any more than you'd try to make a loaf of bread out of boiled onions, garlic and ginger.
Spicey, did you not join this forum in the hope of finding the ultimate curry recipe?
I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.
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It's not a logical approach to things at all, it's learning by 'mimicry' and not by 'understanding'.
One of the reasons I hold that view is because of the sheer number of people here who think it's perfectly acceptable practice to take a base gravy from one person and combine it with a 'spice mix' from someone else.
I agree. A similar example relates to the number of monkeys who work in places like garages and follow instructions without really understanding what they're doing, e.g. when trying to diagnose and fix problems with an air conditioning system. They know to push the red button and if the dial goes above X to push the blue button on a machine, or something like that, but very few have an in-depth knowledge of refrigeration systems and all the issues involved. It's a recipe for disaster and over-billing. Here, it relates to a reduced chance of making much progress.
I also agree about the unscientific approach of mixing one base with another spice and final curry. Of course, it it produces a great tasting curry, then who cares, but it would still be muddled thinking which turned out well by chance.
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I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.
Well at least the thread remains on topic. Looks like the clique has really managed to stir things up here, with a chef's spoon of course ;). The forum's not cliquey. It's simply many of the members resent your high almighty attitude and some of find it difficult not to show it, myself included. If you were as accomplished as you'd like people to believe you are, compared to the rest of us, you wouldn't be here looking for the answer. Other than "empirical" discussions, using the term very loosely, which have contributed nothing concrete as yet, what's your contribution so far other than an awful lot of hot air and antagonising people? Regarding my thread, i am happy to contribute, obviously not in the true sense of the word according to our resident expert, and i expect questions, comments, suggestions and of course constructive criticism. Obviously i would not expect that from your goodself. Being an expert, and the experiment being flawed from the outset, why did you waste your precious time reading it when you knew it would be of no worth anyway. Save yourself some time in future, don't bother reading my threads because obviously you'll learn nothing from them. Maybe your time would be better spent writing your own and imparting some of the wisdom you have and tell us how it's all done. That way there may be some benefit from it for us all ;). I won't hold my breath though. I apologise to all other CR0 members in advance for my outburst, but sometimes you just got to get things off your chest. I'm sure they'll be some further comments from the other members of the "clique". That said, i'm off for a nice banana smoothie ;D
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I also agree about the unscientific approach of mixing one base with another spice and final curry. Of course, if it produces a great tasting curry, then who cares, but it would still be muddled thinking which turned out well by chance.
Well that's a contradiction if ever i read one :o :o. But then again this site is full em ::). If people didn't break the mould and think out of the box and try different things we'd still be walking around naked dragging our knuckles on the ground. In our case we'd still be eating from Vesta packets. The theory doesn't always come before the practice. In many cases the results of a discovery lead to investigation, understanding and then the theory. But what do i know?
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I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.Report to moderator Logged
same for me Spicey, & probably a few of those names at the bottom of the page who never post anything for the reasons stated. I'm only trying to produce flavour present in every curry i've ever bought, but not my own efforts. Once I've solved the fundamental problem, I may well keep on trying to improve. There are a few good testers & members on here who frequently post information which pre empts my questions. I've never been in a bir kitchen, Im not claiming anything as fact, Im certainly not selling anything on here. Its a free forum right? Im also not afraid of asking relevant questions, especially of people who are in the business & thus may or may not have motives, which is fine. The cliquey nature of the site must be holding back lots of new information, but it wont stop me doing what im doing. The other curry forum is just as bad, but with even less posters. You re clearly an outsider in here ;D
on topic, I like to know what im doing also, then I can reproduce it & rule out flukes. But I think i may be looking at this one-pot cuisine a little too closely. I use a serving spoon(2.5 tbls water) size to scrape the pan only, measuring spoon to set everything out beforehand. Imbalances in bir cooking can be tolerated, which is what madras/vindaloo/ garlic-chilli-chicken etc are & they work. Im looking forward to c2go's ebook hopefully later this month, as Iv spotted a couple of things in Julians techniques which may fill a few blanks for me personally.
ELW
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It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?
It's not a logical approach to things at all, it's learning by 'mimicry' and not by 'understanding'.
Rubbish, learning by mimicry is how we start to learn, the understanding comes later, after many attempts and one or two failures. I agree that just copying an approach is going to give varied results at the start, but you learn to get consistency by practice but you have to begin somewhere.
You see a BIR Chef put a 1/4 chef spoon of white powder into his base gravy - what are you going to put into yours by copying him? How do you know what flavour or effect he's trying to achieve if you don't know what it is? It could be a ground spice like garlic or fenugreek powder which will alter the flavour of the dish. It could be a seasoning such as salt, it could be a flavour enhancer such as MSG, it could even be a thickening agent such as cornflour or even plain white flour. How do you know?
How does copying him without the understanding of what he's putting in his dish help you to replicate the same effect or flavour he's getting or trying to achieve? Or are you so good, that you know by instinct and experience what it is?
But who in the right mind would do that? When Julian from curry2go put in the white powder, many members queried as to what it was, I don't think anyone just went ahead and added what they assumed the white powder was. It could have been Cilit Bang for all we know? Knowing what an ingredient is, however, is a completely different thing to understanding what the ingredient should taste like or what we would expect the ingredient to taste like, and is why members asked Julian what it was before there proceeded to 'replicate' (copy) is base gravy.
First of all, I said 'it seems to be'. That's not a definitive statement either way, but it is the over-riding impression I get based on reading through many of the threads here. Clearly there's people here who cook by understanding, knowledge and experience but the majority merely seem to copy them, without really understanding what it is that they're doing.
Sorry Spicey but that is your opinion, of which your are entitled to but I think that it is rather insulting to even suggest such a thing. There are many members on here who like to share their experimental projects, such as Curryhell, Chriswg and JerryM, and I have done the same but there are also many members that prefer to keep their own council and quietly do things their way. Why they keep it to themselves is anybody's guess but it's their choice.
One of the reasons I hold that view is because of the sheer number of people here who think it's perfectly acceptable practice to take a base gravy from one person and combine it with a 'spice mix' from someone else. Why? What logic is there in introducing so many uncontrollable variables? Does it not occur to people that base gravy's are designed to work with the spice mix's that go with them
What a bizarre statement to make, especially coming from someone that regards the 'monkey see monkey do approach' as sheer mimicry. So, if I recommend to a member to use my spicemix, with Chewy's base then I must be showing a lack of understanding or logic? To me, it shows how integrable some combinations can be. Chewy's base is a much superior base to mine, whereas I think that my own spice mix works better with it than Chewys. I think/know this because I've put it to the test however, I've never openly mentioned this on the forum as it doesn't really need to be aired, members can make up their own minds/opinions through experimenting, just as I did/do.
I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all.
You do it, because you know with 100% certainty, logically and by deductive reasoning that most if not all BIR Curry base gravy's use boiled onions, garlic and ginger as their predominant ingredients. You don't have to see someone else using these ingredients to know why to use them. After all, you wouldn't try and make a base gravy out of water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt any more than you'd try to make a loaf of bread out of boiled onions, garlic and ginger.
No Spicey, you've completely missed the point. I boil my onions whole in a base rather than chop them up. Why?, because (and there is science to back this up, although I didn't know the science at the time) it brings out the natural sweetness of the onions that I am familiar with in BIR food. There are many members on cr0 that have done the same since Chewy published his 3 hr base and the majority agree, the base is much sweeter than a base done with chopped onions. Now that isn't me, imposing my beliefs or theories on others, their conclusions were based on their own (silent) experiments. Now forum member Cory Ander, who I admire and respect immensely, doesn't subscribe to this theory which is fine but he has never insulted or looked down upon them that do, and is why I find some of your responses in certain threads, so damn right rude and offensive..!
Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you want to get to the truth, as you see it, and that you may find members accounts of things contradictory or illogical in your opinion, but the way that you simply dismiss members methods, ideas, theories, without offering any of you own as comparisons, is insulting to say the least..! Perfect example below;
Curryhell's recent 'supposed' comparison of ifindforu's spice mix (designed to work with his own base gravy) and Ashoka's Spice Mix (designed to work with Ashoka's base gravy) is a good example of this which produced fairly inconclusive results. Yeah I wonder why? What logic (or usefulness) is there in using one base gravy to test two different spice mix's when the predominant flavour of the dish is produced by the base gravy and the spice mix is used to fine tune the final dish?
Curryhell, by his own addmission has a bit more experimenting to do with this and has never proffessed the results to be comprehensive in any way. What he did do, was to get close friends around to help him out with the experiment, none of which, I assume, actually make their own curries but do know what they like and don't like. Judging by the comments of his testers, he produced two very nice curries, equalling if not bettering them of his local TA! To me, this is just step 1, on his testing of these combinations and I for one, can't wait to read his next set of results. However, you seem to think that the results were, "hopeless - like so many results here" ???
I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.
The misinformation that you refer to, is a product of 6 or 7 years, work in progress. Many of the ideas and theories from say 2005/6/7 have been superseeded by more reliable information, clearer accounts from actual BIR's/TA's and members practicing and striving to achieve their personal goal. You may not always see the logic in these accounts but that doesn't mean that the results aren't good, albeit it that they may not be what you're looking for. As for the forum being cliquey, maybe you feel that way because your combative approach brings a similar reaction from most of the active members?
Ray
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The misinformation that you refer to, is a product of 6 or 7 years, work in progress. Many of the ideas and theories from say 2005/6/7 have been superseeded by more reliable information, clearer accounts from actual BIR's/TA's and members practicing and striving to achieve their personal goal. You may not always see the logic in these accounts but that doesn't mean that the results aren't good, albeit it that they may not be what you're looking for. As for the forum being cliquey, maybe you feel that way because your combative approach brings a similar reaction from most of the active members?
Ray
Hi Razor, I picked up on this before I posted anything on cr0. I noticed members still looking for answers to questions 4 years on. But when a new name appears & asks a few questions, the same members appear to be able to answer them with cetainty , certainty :D on matters which most people on here are clearly still unsure of. There is a cliquey side to this forum & it would have far more active members if it didn't.
I was jumped on for my "rudeness" , for sussing abduls business model, & asking him to clarify, (which he felt the need to do) along with George, who went full out & said he felt duped(fair comment, I got his point), then the cliqueyness ??? waded in, in support of abdul, fair enough, after all he has taken the time to contribute, "not you George" some "other" forum members, was the cry!(there only were two of us who commented on this) talk of low moderation etc...moderate what exactly??? If abdul doesnt post any more, we know where he can be found.
Ifindforu, was labelled some kind of fraud by members, now he has something they like, he's flavour of the month...Julian c2g recieved some some real negativity also from members who late went on to tell Abdul to ignore negativity, when I queried one of his posts
Anyone selling anything should be open to questions
It would be a more welcoming place for new members if this kind of stuff was dropped.
ELW
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Im looking forward to c2go's ebook hopefully later this month, as Iv spotted a couple of things in Julians techniques which may fill a few blanks for me personally.
One lives in hope. It's very good of him to post the videos and contribute here but, with the greatest respect, we don't actually know what his curries taste like. Are they in the (approx) 80% of BIR output which I now find a bit boring and of relatively little interest, or in the 20% of places which produce delicious flavours significantly better than I can produce. I think this critical test applies to anyone. Who knows if Pat Chapman can cook a meal which tastes very good at all, or whether anyone here is already in that top 20%? I do hope to visit Abdul's BIR some time and I'll report back if I do.
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Hi ELW,
I can totally understand members questioning the motive when a member who has a commercial interest posts. I'm also baffled as to why Abdul would suddenly post/email an "enhanced" gravy recipe when he could have simply posted the full recipe in the first place. I can see why some members would feel 'upset' over this. However, he did publish his "simple" base gravy in his book which by all accounts, has been received well by the members who have tried it. He has also posted many recipes on here (that don't appear in "Learn 2 cook, vol I) that use the 'simple' base gravy recipe, so I can't question his motive as anything but sincere..! Even if these recipes appear in vol II, he's kind of 'shut the gate after the horse has bolted' the money earning potential has already been lost to cr0 members.
As for Ifindforu, yes I will openly admit, I was sceptical of him. I hated the fact that he had a TA recipe for a mix powder but wanted to charge for it. Who wouldn't be annoyed at that, especially as this forum prides itself on being totally free, and always will be? But, as Ifindforu's threads developed, it seems that he was doing us a favour because of the availability of one of the ingredients (Eastern Star Curry powder) which can only be purchased in 10kg quantities. Now, if he would have said something like; "guy's, I have a mixed powder recipe from my TA but you won't be able to replicate it because of the cost of one of the ingredients but, I can sell you a batch as I already have the expensive ingredient" then that would have been received much better by the forum. Also, IFFU's writing style can be quite ambiguous (no offense meant) and that can lead to confusion and thus, distrust..!
Julian from curry2go faced the usual level of criticism from a forum like this as did Dipuraja when his videos came to light. I suppose anyone with a commercial interest is 'fair game' on a forum like this, and as in business, they have to take the criticism but build up a trust. I think that Julian has more than done that and I wish him every success (I still won't be ordering any Alu pans off him though :P) The one slip up that Julian has made, in my opinion, was the white powder that he decided to keep to himself. I don't know why Julian did that but I'm quite sure that that, will have done him more harm than good? I mean, how can we replicate what he shows us in his videos, if he doesn't give us the exact recipes? I have read his response a few times now, when the question was asked and I think that he simply, forgot to mention it but explained it off, tongue firmly in cheek, as a "trade secret".
I can also understand why newer members believe that there is a clique present, especially if their way of thinking doesn't generally follow the lines of the majority of the members but there is a way of going about things. Ask questions by all means. I almost always welcome new members with a "ask as many questions as you want, sentence. But what I object to, is when a member asks a question and then openly, completely dismisses the answer as "missinformation" or "faff" and then goes on to insult you and be completely obnoxious in the name of "understanding". It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs. If they feel that the debate is getting nowhere, then why not pm the member and discuss it privately?, that way the threads keep on topic, other members don't have to trawl through the petty arguments and rubbish.
Ray
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I almost always welcome new members with a "ask as many questions as you want, sentence. But what I object to, is when a member asks a question and then openly, completely dismisses the answer as "missinformation" or "faff" and then goes on to insult you and be completely obnoxious in the name of "understanding". It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.
I'm not sure about this but I think that any statement along the lines of "ask as many questions as you want" implies a 'them and us' situation like you're one of the resident experts and the newcomer is some kind of novice. This may be valid when a gardening expert responds to questions on the radio but, here, most people admit they've FAILED to produce dishes which match the best of BIR output, so I question whether anyone is an expert. Publishing a book and/or videos which produce food "95%" as good as 80% of BIRs may look good but how useful is it really? If we were back in 1981, then any of these recent books or videos would be a Godsend in getting you started, but do any of them really get you beyond 'entry level' and into amazing flavours?
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Sorry to take this off topic guys but
How big is a chef's spoon??
Hehe ;D only joking! Just thought i'd lighten it back up a bit, some valid points there though :)
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George,
I'm not sure about this but I think that any statement along the lines of "ask as many questions as you want" implies a 'them and us' situation like you're one of the resident experts and the newcomer is some kind of novice.
Not really George, what it implies, from my part anyway is, if you are struggling with any of my recipes, they please, ask away! For instance, if you can't get hold of a certain ingredient, then ask so I maybe able to offer an alternative ingredient. And how welcoming does that sentence sound to a new member who may not necessarily be new to cooking but could be new to forums in general? It's my way of making them feel at ease.!
I should imagine that quite a large number of new members are newbies to BIR style cooking, and to them, we maybe the experts. They'll soon come to realise that we're not but we are useful to complete novices. Once we get them on their way, they will soon hit the wall like so many of us, or maybe they won't? :D
I still ask members for advice. Inbetween Christmas and New Year, I asked for help from both Chewtikka and Curry Barking Mad. Without their help, I wouldn't have been able to create my centre piece that sat proudly on the middle of my table. My guests were gobsmacked with the Raan of Lamb that was on offer, even forcing one guest to comment "Noway have you made that" I did make it, but not without the help of two very helpful members.
I have been cooking curries for many years, without a great deal of success I might add. That was until I joined cr0. I got to the level that I am by asking recipe providers many questions, and for the most part, I got some really good advice. Now, I'm definitely not an expert but I'm a damn good curry cook, if I say so myself ::), and I am completely happy with the dishes that I make, so much so, that I feel I can offer advice if anyone wants it. Its upto them whether or not they choose to go with my suggestions but please, don't insult me if it doesn't sit well with your way of thinking (not you George, I mean anyone asking for advice)
Ray :)
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Sorry to take this off topic guys but
How big is a chef's spoon??
Hehe ;D only joking! Just thought i'd lighten it back up a bit, some valid points there though :)
Hahahaha, love it ;D ;D ;D
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It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.
And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?
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It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.
And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?
You must have hit a nerve Ray :D. I must be one of your cronies. Civilised debate? Now that's rich coming from you Spicey, more like a lecture on the spicey way of doing things, as all else is inherently wrong and not sufficiently empirical enough :( "Hopeless"
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It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.
And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?
Yeah, hands held up, I let myself down in doing that, however there is no point in holding a civilised debate with you as it's clearly a case of "my way or the highway" as far as you're concerned. You don't debate Spicey, you question, then disagree, then ridicule and as a grand finale, you throw a good CHEFSPOON of sarcasm in, just for good measure.
And if by "cronies" you mean, like minded individuals, that are sick to the back teeth of your obvious contempt for other members methods and opinions, just because they don't fit in with your "far superior" way of doing things then I'm glad to be one of the cronies, especially if that means that I don't fall into the "obnoxious elitist catergory" that you seem to single handedly occupy..!
Ray
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I don't have a chef's spoon. I don't have an aluminium frying pan apparently identical to those used in BIRs. I don't have an 8kW blast furnace, or even a gas hob. But I can still cook a Chicken Madras and a Pulao rice that are the equal of most BIRs and better than some. What am I doing wrong ?
LIKE! :)
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what it implies, from my part anyway is, if you are struggling with any of my recipes, they please, ask away! For instance, if you can't get hold of a certain ingredient, then ask so I maybe able to offer an alternative ingredient. And how welcoming does that sentence sound to a new member who may not necessarily be new to cooking but could be new to forums in general? It's my way of making them feel at ease.!
OK, fair enough, especially if you mean questions related to your recipes. I also accept that there are plenty of people on the first few rungs of the ladder, or higher actually, who would appreciate any general help you might generously provide.
I'm still genuinely puzzled by any suggestion (by others, not you) that there are cliques here. I doubt if I'm included. Who is?
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I'm still genuinely puzzled by any suggestion (by others, not you) that there are cliques here. I doubt if I'm included. Who is?
I'm sorry, clique members aren't allowed to talk about the clique, otherwise we get instantly assassinat....
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I'm still genuinely puzzled by any suggestion (by others, not you) that there are cliques here. I doubt if I'm included. Who is?
Well certnley not me George ;) I'm what one would call a "rank outsider" (and I don't mean "rank" as in smell ;))
but It don't make me a bad person, ;D
I still have a lot to learn, And I love this forum 8)
Les
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I'm still genuinely puzzled by any suggestion (by others, not you) that there are cliques here. I doubt if I'm included. Who is?
I'm sorry, clique members aren't allowed to talk about the clique, otherwise we get instantly assassinat....
WE'VE BEEN HIT...........MONKEY DOWN!!!! WE NEED BACKU......................
On a more serious note and getting back on topic of chef spoons and their use for measuring essential ingredients, by which I mean those that can seriously impact on the flavour of a dish ie. garlic/ginger, tomato paste, mix powder, less is better. Unclefrank found this out with C2G's madras and PaulP when making IFFU's base. If a recipe or an account of observations made in a BIR kitchen that include the measure "chef spoon" one should err on the side of caution and equate it to 2.5 tbsp rather than 4tbsp.
As a forum i think we should avoid the this unit of measure for all key ingredients. That's not to say a chef's spoon of precooked pepper/onions or a level chef's spoon of spicy onions is incorrect though. The impact of these ingredients is far less critical than mix powder, garlic, tomato paste etc. Well that's my thoughts anyway for what they're worth.
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My thoughts too, CH. Some ingredients are so fundamental to the creation of the dish that any vagueness as to quantity could have a truly damaging impact. Much better to stick to standard, recognised measures such as, for example, 'tsp', 'tbsp' (with the addition of 'heaped' if necessary) to avoid confusion.
al.
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The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.
I agree Spicey; we should all try to change/improve that! :P
The stupid pictures of monkeys are a prime (ate ;)) example of it! ::)
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I disagree there are any cliques here any more. I agree some regular posters like a bit of banter with each other but does that make it a clique?
In the social sciences, the word "clique" is used to describe a group of 2 to 12 (averaging 5 or 6) ?persons who interact with each other more regularly and intensely than others in the same setting.?
Okay, maybe it does but I don't see why that is a bad thing. It's not like other people are excluded from these chats is it?
I also can't think of a single instance of any deliberate misinformation being given out. It may appear that way because we all have different opinions and experiences of how things should be done. If we had a thread about making a ham and cheese omelette I'm sure there would be lots of differing opinions. If you put 10 BIR chefs with 20 years experience each in a room and asked them to provide a definitive guide to cooking a Madras they couldn't do it because they will all cook differently.
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I disagree there are any cliques here any more. I agree some regular posters like a bit of banter with each other but does that make it a clique?
Yes, it can certainly appear that way.
In the social sciences, the word "clique" is used to describe a group of 2 to 12 (averaging 5 or 6) ?persons who interact with each other more regularly and intensely than others in the same setting.?
Exactly!
Okay, maybe it does but I don't see why that is a bad thing. It's not like other people are excluded from these chats is it?
Yes! Definitely so! AND they, and their opinions, are trashed accordingly (by the clique! Watch this space! ;))
Oh, and don't forget the "passive/tacit cliquishness"! ;)
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I apologise for my post of the monkey.
i can honestly say it Never occured to me it could be taken the wrong way.
It wasn't until spicey said something that made me think. I was shocked that i never twigged :o and gutted that it slipped past me. im usually sharp that way. ;)
i saw the monkey pic and it reminded me of chetah who had just died.
it was only meant to be a little tribute.
Frank.
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Don't worry about it DP; I'm sure your's was harmlessly meant :)
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As a newcomer to this great site and not wanting to draw fire ... friendly or otherwise may I chip in with my 2 pence worth please ...
a) It would be a great help to people like myself if all measurements for all ingredients up to say 4 Tblsp were given in level Tsp or level Tblsp or increments thereof ie 0.25 Tsp or 0.5 Tblsp. I tried last Friday to interpret both heaped Tsp and heaped Tblsp whilst preparing for a curry and to be honest I wasn't sure if it meant as much as I could fit on the spoon ( with chili powder I can manage to balance almost 3 level as a heaped ) or just slightly more than 'rounded' ... 2 Tblsp ( level of course )would have been better for me than 1 Heaped Tblsp since the heaped option assumes some experience which I simply don't have at this stage. I wouldn't know where to start with a chef's spoon ... the bloke that sold it to me said he was a chef !. :)
b) Not wishing to add fuel to the fire that is the 'monkey see , monkey do' debate I would say just this .. when I was learning to play golf I took lots of lessons so that I could at least hit the ball straight and long. At the time I had no understanding of the theory and no wish to get bogged down in it either ... I merely wanted to be able to consistently hit the ball straight so that I would not lose interest. Cooking curries is exactly the same .. by following some of the great recipes on here I've been able to produce curries the likes of which I've only seen previously in the foil tray we're all familiar with from the local T/A. I'm sure as my interest grows and I gain more confidence and understanding I'll try adapting some of these recipes to suit my individual taste but for now I'm extremely happy with my 'monkey sees , monkey does' approach.
Thanks to all who contribute here .. even the few negative types ... it would be a funny old place if we were all the same !!
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Colin, I agree that lack of clarity / consistency in the descriptions used for measures can be a problem and it's compounded when you see video recipes and realise how often the chef says "one teaspoon" at the same time obviously shovelling over a level tablespoon in. Note - that's certainly not aimed at anyone individually, it's simply something I've noticed watching a large number of videos of curries being cooked and noting the correlation (or lack of it) between the description given and the quantities you can observe. If anything it simply shows the differences in the way in which we each perceive quantities, and if not using a calibrated measuring spoon there is plenty of scope for error.
I guess it will always come down to cooking not being an exact science and recipes only ever giving you a starting point to experiment from. IMHO we've got to be grateful to anyone who makes the effort to share a recipe and responding asking for more precision over measurements might be seen as churlish.
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Natterjak, you seem to have gone out of your way to view my post as 'churlish' .. what on earth is so wrong in your eyes with requesting more precision over measurements ... bearing in mind this is a curry forum where by most posters considered opinion quantities of spice and so on are of paramount importance.... even more so to a beginner such as me. Any small improvement which helps take some of the guesswork out of the exercise I would view as a positive.
I've shown in many of my posts my unequivocal gratitude for the many people who have made the effort to both formulate and share with us their recipes. My observation in my original post was exactly that .. an observation (even to the most sensitive types .. constructive criticism ) and no reflection whatsoever upon the effort people on this forum make. If anyone else finds my post 'churlish' I apologise without reserve .. it was not my intention.
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While we are on the subject, I've been following Curry2Go of Chorley's vids and wonder if anyone might know roughly what his ladle size might be?
e.g: add the first ladle of base gravy..... add half a ladle of the tempered oil....... :-\
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Natterjak, you seem to have gone out of your way to view my post as 'churlish' .. what on earth is so wrong in your eyes with requesting more precision over measurements ... bearing in mind this is a curry forum where by most posters considered opinion quantities of spice and so on are of paramount importance.... even more so to a beginner such as me. Any small improvement which helps take some of the guesswork out of the exercise I would view as a positive.
I've shown in many of my posts my unequivocal gratitude for the many people who have made the effort to both formulate and share with us their recipes. My observation in my original post was exactly that .. an observation (even to the most sensitive types .. constructive criticism ) and no reflection whatsoever upon the effort people on this forum make. If anyone else finds my post 'churlish' I apologise without reserve .. it was not my intention.
Well I was actually trying to agree with you :-\ maybe this is how wars get started?! :'(
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While we are on the subject, I've been following Curry2Go of Chorley's vids and wonder if anyone might know roughly what his ladle size might be?
e.g: add the first ladle of base gravy..... add half a ladle of the tempered oil....... :-\
I believe it's 150ml but could be wrong.
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I'm guessing here, having had a look a some of the vids where the ladle is clearly visible, it's definitely 150ml and it could even be 200ml. Mine is 100ml and Julien's (ladle) is definitely bigger than mine ;D. I think ladles are a bit like chef spoons; coming in a few standard sizes, not helpful when looking to gague measurements though :(.
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Don't forget we are trying to replicate BIR dishes, so when a chef makes his/her dish they don't use teaspoons and tablespoons as a measurement its by eye, as many people on this site have stated before.
So really if you take on board that an average serving of curry is 300ml (this is what i use) and the chef puts in 3 ladles there's your answer, if the chef adds 2 ladles and YOU don't think the dish looks "wet" enough add another half a ladle and take notes, use google to look up dishes and see what they should look like.
For example i didn't know what a Roshni looks like, there are descriptions and photos to look up, its not going to be laid on a plate for you, you have to do a bit of research for each dish, well i do anyway, i look up where its from, what region, and where its eaten the most and then i read descriptions.
Some people may have a different amount of curry served to them from their local T/A, but that's the region thing again.
Anyway hope that helped a little.
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I know some people thought the Undercover curry book was abit vague,especially the bit about dipping but it is what the chefs do .They use one big spoon dip and cook with it .On those high heats they havent got time to measure.
I tried a new TA yesterday where you could actually see them cook . All he used was his chefs spoon and by the way those flames were two foot high . Being my first time there I was abit shy about asking questins :'( >:(
(must try harder for the lads) but my mix grill,Bombay aloo and jalfrazi was more than good enough for a return visit
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I'm guessing here, having had a look a some of the vids where the ladle is clearly visible, it's definitely 150ml and it could even be 200ml. Mine is 100ml and Julien's (ladle) is definitely bigger than mine ;D. I think ladles are a bit like chef spoons; coming in a few standard sizes, not helpful when looking to gague measurements though :(.
I reckon you're right, CH. His recipes usually call for two ladles of base, and 300ml is a fairly standard BIR portion.
You could always pour it into a jug if you want to be sure, I guess. If in doubt, measure it out.
(Personally, I can't be arsed! ;D)
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;D Thanks!