Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: George on January 10, 2006, 02:08 AM
-
It makes me wonder, having just read rave review after rave review at amazon.co.uk on Kris Dhillon's "The Curry Secret" book. Are these people on a different planet to me? How can they say these recipes produce curries just like from a BIR? You can see from the lists of ingredients that many/most of the recipes are not going to work. And they don't. How are some people so easily pleased?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0716020548/customer-reviews/202-3061216-7568612 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0716020548/customer-reviews/202-3061216-7568612)
One review, in particular, is of indirect interest: jamesbate from Yorkshire says: "I think the book is particularly important now as I have noticed that restaurant currys are beginning to change as they experiment with their own recipes to get competitive edge in a mature market. I feel the consistency and flavour of some of the traditionals are being lost. It is important to keep hold of the authentic restaurant flavours of the eightees and nineties and this book captures that." I think he has a point, there. Would you agree about some traditional flavours being lost? But I don't agree with jamesbate that the KD book captures and documents the flavour of BIRs in the 80s and 90s, in the first place. If the book had correctly recorded the flavour, then there would never have been a need for this forum!
Regards
George
-
I never really ate restaurant curry in the eighties but if it tasted like any of the currys that the KD book produces I'm glad I didn't? ;)
-
Does anybody know where KD is now? Does she still run a restaurant. Wouldn't it be great if she could be tracked down and got some in-put from her?
-
Does anybody know where KD is now? Does she still run a restaurant. Wouldn't it be great if she could be tracked down and got some in-put from her?
Good question. How can anybody like Kris Dhillon, Pat Chapman or even David Smith (curryhouse.co.uk) not be aware of this forum, for a start, and resist joining in the debate? They are all, after all, very well known in the arena of BIR recipes, being many folks 'best hope' for recipes before this forum trounced all of them with MUCH better recipes. Perhaps these authors do lurk and even contribute under some screen name.
I read that Kris is a woman. Who knows? Which restaurant?The author could be a man, woman or a committee. I don't trust anyone to tell the truth, just like the Curry Secret book gives us the basic 'secret' about a base sauce, but doesn't give much more away.
Regards
George
-
lol only 1 negatave review from the amazon website on thebook
Rubbish, February 4, 2005
Reviewer: cb22616 from Watchet, Somerset United Kingdom
Absolute rubbish. I wasted far too much time preparing the "curry sauce" Used it and wasted some perfectly good chicken breasts, mushrooms and peas. If you grew up (and liked) Vesta curries go for it. If not avoid like the plague
the price of the book says it all....
-
i read somewhere that Kris was last seen heading to Aus
-
I'm KD. I'm sorry I meant Spartacus!
I couldn't resist that.....
Let's track her down. But how? Or if you read this KD, please reveal yourself or indeed, any of the other curry connoisseurs - the same......
-
i read somewhere that Kris was last seen heading to Aus
I read that too, probably on the same web page, wherever that was. But what credence can anyone attach to it? It would make a good excuse for the author(s) of The Curry Secret keeping a low profile, if that's their policy, as seems the case.
Regards
George
-
I wrote to the curry secret's publisher
They wouldn't give me her address but said she now resided in Australia and could not be contacted.
It was them that told me she was a woman
Silly, really
She could have easily written a follow up book
I would probably buy it too!
-
Pete
Ah, so it was you that discovered the Australian connection. It might be worth asking the publisher if they could forward a letter or eMail to "Kris Dhillon" or whoever they presumably send royalties to. At the very least, you could point out the existence of this forum just in case the author(s) is/are not aware and not already lurking here and at other BIR-related curry forums.
Regards
George
-
Rumour has it that Kris Dhillon was a figment of Pat Chapman's imagination - after he had actually tried one of his own recipes .... had a nightmare and then concocted the name . ;)
-
cc
Perhaps we should set another challenge - to find the author(s) of The Curry Secret book. It's absurd for the publishers to say they don't have any contact details. The book continues to be quite a good seller, I assume, so they must have an address for sending royalties, etc, unless perhaps it was a one-off deal whereby the publisher keeps 100% of the revenue. Is that likely, does anyone know?
Regards
George
-
I think the forum exists for people who are into BIR curries to exchange their ideas, recipes and stories. I log onto this forum because of the KD book not the other way round.
I recently received the "Curry Secret" as a gift and I have made some very nice (near restaurant style) curries from it. I have been into curries for years and have never been able to produce anything like a BIR curry until now. I think the book deserves all the plaudits as it gives the home enthusiast a few authentic tips and tricks - the recipes are obviously open to interpretation but it at least gets you half way there. I would think that the number of times KD is mentioned in this forum is proof that it was an important publication (important to the likes of us anyway), after all if it was that bad would it still be selling and would we be still posting about it?
I think that finding one very negative review and quoting it as if it was found carved in a tablet of stone is a little bit underhand given the vast amount of positives found on the Amazon website.
The guy that observed that curries are now changing is absolutely correct - I have not had a Madras, Vindaloo, or Rogan Josh that has been anything like the sauces I used to eat in the 70s and 80s. The texture and flavour has changed completely from those days. I find that the consistency from one restaurant to another (or even one night to another) is very shaky these days - when I was in my twenties you could basically go into any Indian restaurant and order a curry and know what it was going to look, smell and taste like.
One observation of my own - why can't you buy a decent BIR curry in a jar - after all we have all these experts in the field so it should be easy shouldn't it?
The negative response that started this thread reminded me of the catholic church's response to the DaVinci Code - me think he doth protest too loudly - it's only a book.
Col
-
The negative response that started this thread reminded me of the catholic church's response to the DaVinci Code - me think he doth protest too loudly - it's only a book.
CS
You've lost me in terms of the DaVinci Code, as I haven't read the book or seen the film! If you mean my opening post at this thread, I hope it was only negative in the sense that I don't rate KD's book very highly and I have a problem reconciling my experience with the dozens of rave reviews at amazon.co.uk. You say it's only a book. Does that mean you don't approve of any book review, especially negative ones?
Have you tried any of the leading recipes from this site? If so, how do they compare with the KD recipes you have tried?
Regards
George
-
If KD has a restaurant in Australia she will do really well. The curries I have tried over there are like the ones I have tried from the book: bland, insipid and not worth bothering about.
Thank goodness for this site... ;D
-
it was only negative in the sense that I don't rate KD's book very highly
No problem with negative reviews about the book but the impression I got from your first post, George, (and underlined) by your last one, is that you are reviewing the readers who don't have the same opinion as yourself and not the book itself.
I am not a chef but I have been hooked on Indian Curries for at least 30 years - in that time I have not eaten anything (cooked outside the BIR itself) resembling a typical BIR curry whether it was a home-made attempt, served up by friends, English restaurants, out of a packet, Jar, tin, et al.
My point is that as soon as I tried the curry sauce from KD's book I scored a near hit (and not a tasteless, insipid one) - I saw the light.
I am not a novice when it comes to Indian curries but it has always amazed me that they were virtually impossible recreate - whether it's by Madhur Jaffrey, Lloyd Grossman, Mr & Mrs Patak, or Great Uncle Joe who lived in Bangladesh for 50 years they all turned out to bear no resemblance to the dish I was hoping for - the KD book has finally got me on the right track.
And it is that very same author that led me to this site (as I suspect a lot of others on here).
I will definitely try some of the recipes on this site and have no doubt that I will find some belters here - any suggestions as to who's recipe I should try firs, George?
Col
-
Hi Coolinshot,
I'm no fan of the book myself but appreciate that it's as close as you can get in book form and your right it is the stepping stone that gets a lot of people into trying to recreate BIR at home. I also agree with George in that the reviews on Amazon are misleading, if you take just the recipes on their own merit most of them are way of the mark in terms of being similar to your local BIR. They are not stir in sauce bad but no way as close to a decent BIR as those reviews would make you believe.
If your wondering where to start why not try Bruce Edwards under the ebooks section.
cK
-
If your wondering where to start why not try Bruce Edwards under the ebooks section.
Thanks CK - I will give one of Bruce's a try next time I am allowed to destroy the kitchen
Col
-
No problem with negative reviews about the book but the impression I got from your first post, George, (and underlined) by your last one, is that you are reviewing the readers who don't have the same opinion as yourself and not the book itself.
It's true that I have great difficulty reconciling my experience of Curry Secret dishes with those reported by the reviewers at amazon.co.uk. How can so many people be so wrong, I ask myself? But I'm sure they are. The point of opening this thread was to try and understand why. Perhaps it's because people come from such different 'backgrounds' in terms of curries tried and tested. Some people may be easily pleased. I don't know.
I suggest trying Darth's 100% clone base and Madras and comparing that with the base and Madras from KD's Curry Secret book. I suggest the difference will be like night and day in favour of Darth's recipes.
Regards
George
-
Some people may be easily pleased. I don't know.
I assure you that I am not easily pleased, George, especially when it comes to Indian-style curries, but I am not saying that KD has come up with the Mother of all Curries either, just that the techniques / methods have shown me (and lots of other satisfied readers) the way.
I will take your suggestion and I am sure that I will find the Darth base to be delicious - I shall post my findings in due course.
In the meantime I noticed this post right here on this forum I particularly refer to the statement:
"This is where the journey began a long time ago for many on the road to curry perfection", The Boss (Admin)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1652.0
"Could we teach taste or genius by rules, they would be no longer taste and genius" Joshua Reynolds
Col
-
I would think that the number of times KD is mentioned in this forum is proof that it was an important publication (important to the likes of us anyway), after all if it was that bad would it still be selling and would we be still posting about it?
I agree with that assessment CS.......although I think George's point is why so many people appear to sing the praises of this book? Which, I feel, is an equally valid point. :P
Whereas I'm not too fond of Khris Dhillon's recipes (but I do have a copy of her book), I nevertheless believe and acknowledge that her book has played a very significant part (as have Pat Chapman's) in the quest to reproduce BIR curries at home.
It seems to me that Khris, Pat and Co are pioneers of BIR cooking, at home. I also feel that we should be indebted to these people and that anyone who feels obliged to consign their books to a bin is sorely missing a point (I'm trying to be polite here :P). They are all excellent reference sources and all contain a wealth of valuable information (IMHO).
By the way, welcome to the forum CS! 8)
-
>I nevertheless believe and acknowledge that her
>book has played a very significant part
>(as have Pat Chapman's) in the quest to reproduce
>BIR curries at home.
I agree with you there. But they could have done so much better. That's Kris by being more revealing in her one and only book, and/or by writing follow-up books with better recipes and (b) Pat by making ?000's out of a huge stream of publications without being honest. There's a huge gap between what it says on the tin (book covers, preface) and what you find inside (recipes) with his books. But from a zero start in the 80s, they were the guys who let us into the 'secret' of base sauce and some other key aspects, and for that I am partly grateful. If Kris really used her recipes in her restaurant, I don't think the place would have many customers because the flavours are so bland and uninspiring. She stopped short of giving us the full story. At one extreme, it seems to me, we have too few spices in KDs recipes, and what looks like too many in Andy/CPs recipes. Darth gets it right, just short of everyone agreeing, so far, that any of these recipes have the ultimate BIR 'taste'.
Regards
George
Regards
George
-
Yep! Many salient points there George! 8)
-
She stopped short of giving us the full story
Probably true, George, in fact definitely true - your point is taken.....now onward and upward..
After many years meandering down blind alley after blind alley I have (finally) thrown the double six and can now start the game - I am hoping to encounter more ladders than snakes along the way but I will achieve my goal......the grail will be mine.......(mine I tell ya).....whooo ha ha ha ha ha
Col
-
A fair few people are whacking away at poor old KD here! KD's curry recipes don't work for me and, for example, that chicken curry which adds jeera and garam marsala right at the end, virtually raw, looks a fatal step in hindsight.
What KD did however was to introduce me (way back then) to the concept of curry sauce based on garlic, ginger, onion and tomato - as well as the idea of pre-cooking the meat (albeit then throwing out the juices, alas). Still KD has done well out of the book because it took people a step closer (and some stopped there, satisfied). Not me.
Combing through many of the posts here, amazed at the erudition :o(possibly deserving PhDs in certain cases), I?ll confess I'm a scientist too and the following insights have come to me:
(1) The medium that carries the taste and aroma of the spices - their essential oils - into the meat is OIL in large quantity. Chemically speaking the oil concentrates them as water never could (chemists, say "partition coefficient"). Too little oil and the essences are lost.
(2) TEMPERATURE has to be high. Higher than almost any household hob can manage (unless you make tiny quantities). High enough to extract those essential oils from the spices AND to impart a delicious 'singed' aroma to your curry! You curry ought to taste like a badly ventilated Indian restaurant smells!
(3) You ought not to eat "BIR" style curry too often - not only are there vast amounts of oil BUT the high temperatures used will have 'cracked' the oil (and other chemical components) into new compounds, some of which may be very bad for you.
(4) If you want to duplicate these dishes at home, get a huge gas ring and set it up like your BBQ in the garden - and be prepared for that area to look pretty squalid in short order! (Oil splattered all over). Loss of friendly neighbours and a fall in local house prices should not deter you.
(5) Australians are not rated too highly for their curries. I think this is not quite fair but confess that one of the worst curries I ever had was at the Raj in Melbourne (famous for the cricket memorabilia all over its walls but quite infamous for its curries in ad. 2000). Sure there are good restaurants there, have to be!
Please know that I am no upstart, even though I just found this excellent forum - I have been trying (and failing) to cook curries restaurant style since my first addiction in London in 1960.
-
I have been trying (and failing) to cook curries restaurant style since my first addiction in London in 1960.
Hello Spotty (hope I'm not being too familiar)
I inserted your quote because I have been trying for many years too.
I would guess that you are a bit older than me (unless you started cooking at the age of 3 that is) but I, like yourself, have been trying for many years to produce a decent curry, as has my brother and most of my mates.
Until I came upon the KD book that is. (have to whisper cos some people get annoyed if you say that to loudly)
I am not trying to dig up old ground here but just agreeing with what you said - I have had one of two very good results and have not had to stray too far off the page to do it.
RE YOUR POST: I found it very informative - I can vouch for the "hot oil point as I have now created a lovely speckled effect all over my kitchen which isn't going down to well with the good lady wife (well she bought me the book so it's her fault). I also have 3rd degree burns to my arms (in a matching speckled effect).
My neighbours have stopped complaining about my loud TV but bang on the wall when I get my frying pan out ("turn that blasted garlic down" they shout).
If Van Gogh lived next door to me his nose would start fretting.
Col
-
Coolinshot said:
"Hello Spotty (hope I'm not being too familiar)"
Not at all. Although the third degree burns on my arms have now healed, tumeric has been incorporated into the scar tissue, giving a particularly pleasing effect which inflames the opposite sex.
"My neighbours have stopped complaining about my loud TV but bang on the wall when I get my frying pan out ("turn that blasted garlic down" they shout)."
Let them pound - the Philistines - if they couldn't appreciate your '1812' overture delivered at full volume on Sunday morning, how could they ever hope to savour your latest Murg Phall? Throw in another fistfull while screaming: "Up your dhoti!"
But returning to the academic issue here, do we in the post-Einstein era deride Sir Isaac Newton?
No sir, we do not.
KD has her/his place in the history of "BIR" curry synthesis which ought to be recognized. Let those who howl produce their copies of the book. See? It's as I thought: splattered all over with yellow stains!
Spotty
-
Gas burners may be the way forward with the summer coming up for some garden cooking.
Here is a link to buy cheap http://www.eatpaella.co.uk/burners.asp
Although Cory Ander has the real deal, CA where did you get your one from
Stew
-
where did you get your one from
Geez! That wine sure looks like it brings a smile to your face! :o
I got my gas burner (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1714.msg15274#msg15274 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1714.msg15274#msg15274)) from the gas showroom Stew. I've also seen them in camping shops 8)
The flames dont seem to come out on my camera for some reason :-\
Also notice said "splats"! :P
Regards,
-
(2) TEMPERATURE has to be high. Higher than almost any household hob can manage (unless you make tiny quantities). High enough to extract those essential oils from the spices AND to impart a delicious 'singed' aroma to your curry! You curry ought to taste like a badly ventilated Indian restaurant smells!
Spotty
Thanks for a great post. I'm interested to read 100% of your ideas and agree with 90% of the points you make.
But on point (2) temperature, my bog-standard domestic gas cooker can easily and quite quickly heat vegetable oil up to smoking point and much higher, so how can that be such a limitation? NB That's a genuine question, not a stab at suggesting you're wrong!
Regards
George
-
George:
Thanks for your kind reply, you are very correct - I see that I should qualify what I said.
I totally agree that you can reach any desired temperature with bog-standard equipment & below. But here is the big point: can this hob sustain itself for long enough to give satisfaction?
When you add a reasonable quantity of onions, meat, whatever; does this simply fizz for a few moments, only to collapse into a flaccid, quiescent mass - merely boiling instead of sizzling & smoking fiercely? Domestic hobs don't put out enough heat to 'keep it up' - hence you need something not far short of a commercial jet engine underneath to accomplish the task.
I suppose, otherwise, the only way this might work is to use very small quantities - for example the way Andy does, using 10 pieces of chicken - see his recent recipe posts.
I reckon this goes back to our physics days at school where we were taught the difference between heat and temperature!
Spotty
-
I don't quite get what your saying regards using small amounts, surely unless you are cooking enough curry to last months the majority of us will always be making a single portion. You mention 10 pieces of chicken as being an example of small, to me thats a regular curry and in the case of a vindaloo where potato would be added could be seen as over sized?
cK
-
I don't quite get what your saying regards using small amounts, surely unless you are cooking enough curry to last months the majority of us will always be making a single portion.
I think Spotty is correct. I normally cook a single, take-away sized portion of curry which is the same size portion as my local BIR (which has an open plan kitchen). But when I add, say, 120ml of base sauce, my overall pan temperature will dip for several seconds before it recovers. I can see that the BIR kitchen have a 'furnace' under their pan, so the 'recovery' time will be much faster whenever they add each ingredient. Even when they are busy doing something else in the kitchen, the empty pans are left on full flame, even for 1-2 minutes, unattended. Yet they don't smoke or anything.
Regards
George
-
But when I add, say, 120ml of base sauce, my overall pan temperature will dip for several seconds before it recovers. I can see that the BIR kitchen have a 'furnace' under their pan, so the 'recovery' time will be much faster whenever they add each ingredient.
I totally agree but spotty is saying that by using a small amount(10 pieces of chicken) you should overcome that problem? That doesnt make any sense as thats the sort of quantity the majority of us use anyway, maybe if you used a single piece of chicken and a tiny amount of base you can offset the lack in temp but whats the point.
cK
-
(2) TEMPERATURE has to be high. Higher than almost any household hob can manage (unless you make tiny quantities). High enough to extract those essential oils from the spices AND to impart a delicious 'singed' aroma to your curry! You curry ought to taste like a badly ventilated Indian restaurant smells!
I use one of these hi flame burners from Nisbets, it is fantastic, it is available in both propane and natural gas versions. It is very high power and pan recovery times are fast, great for Chinese as well.
I have adapted one of my kitchen cabinets so it fits level with the worktop.
-
But when I add, say, 120ml of base sauce, my overall pan temperature will dip for several seconds before it recovers.
Couldn't you pre-heat the base sauce before adding thus reducing average temperature loss?
-
I don't quite get what your saying regards using small amounts, surely unless you are cooking enough curry to last months the majority of us will always be making a single portion. You mention 10 pieces of chicken as being an example of small, to me thats a regular curry and in the case of a vindaloo where potato would be added could be seen as over sized?
Curry King - what I was really trying to say was that your burner must supply enough heat so that, after you've added some components, the temperature rises again sufficiently to restore 'sizzle' and not just 'bubble'.
Let me try to say that more scientifically! Imagine a mass of cold food just dumped into a very hot pan. Of course the temperature will drop at first. Heat from the burner will cause the temperature to rise again - at least to the boiling point of water ~100 deg. If the heating is uniform, the water content should boil off before there's a further temperature rise - but it's NOT uniform and if there is enough heat supplied, part of the mass will be boiling and the oily part especially will be at a higher temperature - hence the sizzle.
If there's not enough heat supplied you'll get that depressing bubbling. Reduce the 'mass' of the curry sufficiently and you'll reach a point where almost any burner can supply the needed sizzle! I don't know if that's ten bits of chicken or two.
Again, I don't presume to preach upon the subject of "BIR" curryology - but I am pretty comfortable with the physics and some of the chemistry.
-
I totally agree with what you are saying and have already stated as much. I was just picking up on the point you made that this effect might somehow be countered by using less food. The example you gave for using less is actually what we would use anyway so if that was the case we would never be affected by said problem although this does not mean I disagree the problem exists. :)
cK
-
Couldn't you pre-heat the base sauce before adding thus reducing average temperature loss?
Yes, that must help but perhaps the BIR's base sauce is warm also, so they still have an advantage with their high-powered burners. You'd also need to pre-heat all the ingredients.
My gut feel is that it must make sense to copy as much as possible of what a BIR kitchen does, just to minimise the margins for error. They use high-powered burners. We may not understand fully why but it must make sense to follow their lead if we want to emulate BIR style food.
Regards
George
-
it makes sense to follow their lead if we want to emulate BIR style food.
Regards
George
Hi George
I made friends with the staff of two takeaways
Last summer I must have sat through the cooking of at least 100 curries
What can I say, except that something magical happens on these big cookers
The most odd thing, is that although they always have their double cooking ring on high, nothing seems to burn
They sometimes heat the oil in a pan for a couple of minutes before adding anything.
If I do that at home, oil starts burning at the edge of the pan
In these takeaways they got curry aromas I can't achieve
I watched them prepare the curry gravy, and at one point there was this marvelous BIR smell.
The one that travels a quarter of a mile down the street (know the smell?)
I have duplicated (scaled down) everything they did but on a conventional cooker, it just doesn't happen the same.
Both these takeaways have closed now
Before they did I asked everything I could think of to get my curries better
Maybe it's just the heat from their cookers, but I just can't get the same results, unless I use a bought curry gravy
Actually that's not quite true
I occasionally and inexplicably, I get an unrepeatable brilliant result
-
Haldi
Hey, who enhanced the title of the thread I opened and named? It's an improvement, actually, so I don't mind.
This business of very high heat and seemingly no smoke from oil, etc must be very easy to suss out:
oil - many of us use exactly the same oil, i.e. vegetable oil
heat - most of our cookers produce a lot less heat than a BIR, so they should produce less heat and less smoke
pans - this is the only remaining variable if there is one. We need to make sure we are using the same size pans as they are, with the same metal type and metal thickness, for both base and sides. Best to get exactly the same brand and model.
It can't be anything else! Minor coatings on the pan, built up over months wouldn't make hardly any difference to something like the smoking point of oil. Moreover if vegetable oil reaches a certain (known, predetermined) temperature it WILL smoke.
Regards
George
-
One other thing I noticed at the takeaways
The pans are only washed with water
No washing up liquid used
Maybe some sort of coating does build up
-
I use one of these hi flame burners from Nisbets, it is fantastic, it is available in both propane and natural gas versions. It is very high power and pan recovery times are fast, great for Chinese as well.
I have adapted one of my kitchen cabinets so it fits level with the worktop.
Hi Onion
I'm having difficulty finding this on the net
Can you point me in theright direction?
Is this a double ring burner?
-
Hi Onion
I'm having difficulty finding this on the net
Can you point me in theright direction?
Is this a double ring burner?
Hi Haldi
Here is the link http://www.nisbets.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?productCode=L492
Onion
-
Haldi
Hey, who enhanced the title of the thread I opened and named? It's an improvement, actually.
I disagree that it's an improvement, George, but the thread did lose it's direction somewhat. It has become one of those Chinese whispers.
As interesting as the burner debate is it doesn't bear much relevance to the "why does this forum exist" - lambasting of KD which, I admit, had run its course. Maybe a new thread should be started to save confusion - anybody clicking on the thread for the first time now is going to find it a little confusing.
Col