Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: George on July 17, 2011, 10:56 AM
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I know that I'm no longer very interested in typical, average BIR fare. I'm only interested in dishes which taste way above average. I can see what the chef in the following article means:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015490/Drunks-tinned-food-tikka-masala--chef-says-Indian-restaurants-got-wrong.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015490/Drunks-tinned-food-tikka-masala--chef-says-Indian-restaurants-got-wrong.html)
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Hi George,
A very interesting article.
I have no problem with the author says and it does make a lot of sense.
I like authentic cuisine as well, however, I think there will always be a place for standard BIR food.
I certainly don't aspire to cook junk and I wouldn't call a full flavoured Jalfrezi junk.
Most of us understand the reasons that BIR food exists and I for one am glad that the early Bengali chefs created dishes for 'our' palate. ;D
As you are no longer interested in average BIR fare, does this site now not supply you with what you are looking for?
Good find on the article. 8)
Cheers,
Mick
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Hi George,
Good article and an interesting read.
To be fair though, I think many Indian restaurants are changing their ways these days. Where I live, there are at least 3 premier Indian restaurants that cater for the more discerning customer. I would describe these establishments as 'family' orientated' restaurants.
I also think that the modern BIR/TA menu is changing and changing for the better. Many new dishes appearing on the menu that you wouldn't have seen 20 or 30 years ago.
He makes a good point with regards to the quality and quantity of food being prepared in restaurants of other cuisines. French cuisine, in my opinion, has always been overpriced, and sadly, Italian food is heading in the same direction. Good tactics on the part of the restaurant owners really. Charge more for less = less work, better profits and affords the restaurant to target a "calmer" customer.
It's amazing how he describes dishes made with 'onion gravy' with such disdain, as a good 90 percent of the UK BIR's make their curries this way.
Surely, he must have a team in before service doing all the prep work? How different can their prep be to a standard BIR? It suggests that he doesn't make an onion gravy but makes the dishes from fresh?
As for the question 'Do we aspire to recreate junk?' No, is my answer, I aspire to create a dish that makes people go 'wow'. I want to make a dish that people will make comments such as 'That's the best bhuna I've ever had' or 'are you sure that you have made this?'
Can I achieve this by making a dish that has only cost me 2 quid to make? definitely yes, if I make plenty of it. Is it Junk?, definitely no, all my ingredients are fresh and of good quality. Can the same be said of a standard BIR/TA? I suspect the answer would be No.
Good find George, an interesting thought provoking article.
Ray :)
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No. He does make some good points but I do think he is talking of establishments of yesteryear I do believe standards having greatly improved of late. Anyway I do try to create dishes that are better then what your average TA or BIR mass produce. I never use any pastes or any other shortcuts other then a few premium spice mixes. Mostly I freshly grind whole spices to make my own masala. Also I only use fresh vegetables and quality fresh meat or fish. That for me is the buzz to actually not just recreate BIR tasting food but to top it by using better, fresher and healthier ingredients. That is the great thing about this site it allows people to grasp the basics then move on to higher levels to perfect the standard dishes to their own taste or to actually create entirely new dishes of their own.
Bon article
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I agree with what's been said so far - I think the article is over simplistic because it tars all Indian restaurants with the same brush, except his of course and the article is quite a subtle advertisement for his own place. Since he spent so much time talking about late night revellers trashing the place I imagine his view must have been tainted by seeing his father being treated with so much disrespect.
Great article though, and other Indian chefs like Atul Kochhar are also upping the standard of restaurants serving Indian food.
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Hi George
Are you talking about food that you actually cook, or food you buy in restaurants?
Hi lads
I agree with most of the comments so far,
Aktar Islam I remember this guy on the F word, getting up Gordon Ramsey's back as he was such an arrogant shite. (I'd love to see the out takes of that show.)
i think he has done a good job, in self promotion. But hopefully he won't succeed in becoming a full blown celebrity chef as he's
not in the same league as Cyrus Todiwala and Atul Kochhar, chefs I admire very much.
cheers Chewy
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If very, very tasty, relatively cheap, high quality (i.e. value for money) high street BIR food is considered to be "junk" (or "fast") food , then, yes, that is the what I personally wish to replicate.
It seems, to me, to be a bit like wishing to replicate a KFC (or McDonald's Big Mac, Hungry Jacks' Whopper, Steer's spare ribs, Nandos chicken, etc) and saying that you should rather be wishing to eat some far more expensive alternative. The latter is fine (if that's what you prefer) but I am after the former.
Having said that, if I owned an Indian restaurant, I would definitely diversify/differentiate into something altogether more traditional, bespoke, freshly made, low volume and.....far more expensive! God rue the day..... :P
In fact, I have recommended such an approach, to an Indian restaurateur, in the 90s (including belly dancers 'n all). Thankfully (but for him?) he ignored me and opened yet another typical BIR restaurant.... ::)
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sounds to me like he has a chip on his shoulder :(
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A very arrogant article.
Rather than publicly demean his father, he should fall on his knees in thanks for the opportunity his father provided through his selfless, hard work.
His father and that pioneering generation and possibly second generation introduced the UK to relatively inexpensive dining out, prior to Indian restaurants very few people ate out other than simple cafes with very simple menus.
They also opened a new and exciting adventure to the British public and that was, food prepared with spices,herbs and ingredients never previously experienced or even dreamt of.
As with all cuisine, Indian food is evolving often in my view to pander to the narcissist artistic egos of modern cooks
I like a nice traditional curry not a work of art on the plate and pay through the nose for the privilege
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As you are no longer interested in average BIR fare, does this site now not supply you with what you are looking for?
Yes, I'm now longer interested in the 2011 average level of BIR fare because I feel that it's no longer as tasty as the average standard in the BIRs of the 1980s and 90s. I continue to rate this forum highly because of the good contributions made on threads like this one, for example. I also rate many of the recipes. Blade's tikka recipe is a good example. It's only in above average BIRs that you might get tikka as good as that. Too often you're given dried out, tasteless morsels, possibly reheated from the day before. As I think I mentioned, a long term favourite BIR of mine has now slipped from above average (fine tasting food) to average (food which doesn't taste very special). It's nothing to do with the base sauce approach. They would always have used base sauces.
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I have never had a BIR 3 course meal for ?7 and never seen one open until 3am.
He is very privileged to have customers willing to give him ?21 for monkfish. There is also charging for presentation ! I am sure if another bir opened next door he would over time reduce his prices until he is once again serving the local "average" food and driving a clapped out Volvo doing celebrity home delivery for couple of quid.
I tried to edit this earlier but got called away...round here a over the last few years the bir's have fallen to a poor quality but a couple i know have indeed tried to come up with new dishes. A cod starter being one of them, a little over priced at times but they have tried to improved.
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George I know where your coming from ;) After my lessons at the Myristica Restaurant in Bristol where everything is made from scratch my opinion of BIR fayre took a nose dive, you wont find yer Korma's and Madras type Curry's on their Menu (although they do CTM & Vindaloo) but every meal is made from scratch.I took the Mrs there for a meal some time ago and asked if they could do a Madras as that's our favourite and they duly obliged :o - and it was lovely !
I still enjoy making BIR Curry's but feel I have reached where I need to be and can better most local BIR's Madras at least.
I also enjoy making the odd Curry from scratch and using all fresh ingredients takes some beating and I think I should be putting in more effort in this direction.
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Well, I read all of the replies before reading the article referred to in the opening message of the thread, and I was expecting to find in the article many things with which I might disagree. I was therefore very surprised to find myself feeling that the article was actually a genuine, from-the-heart, statement of belief. Although I do not know where I could get a three-course BIR meal for GBP 7-00 (I do know where I can get four BIR dishes for GBP 10-00), and nor do I know of any Indian Restaurant that stays open until 03:00, I do know that in the village where I grew up (which shall remain nameless), the Chinese restaurant set their standards much higher than the two Indian restaurants, and regularly refused to accept customers who had spent too much money on alcohol in the course of the evening, turning them away very politely with the words "Very sorry, Sir, we are fully booked this evening; perhaps you might be able to get a table at the ... Restaurant down the road". So the poor Indian restaurant and its customers ended up with all the drunks, while we who patronised the Chinese restaurant were able to dine in peace and quiet. It may also have helped that the owner of the Chinese restaurant was a young, fit, martial arts black belt in at least two disciplines.
But all in all, I found myself agreeing with everything that the author wrote. Which came as quite a surprise.
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
Unfortunately, I know only too well of the type of restaurant that the author refers to. Many of them opening until 3 and 4 am, full of drunks. These places specifically cater for that type of clientele and there decor is reflected in this. Very sparse furnishings, tablecloths situated under perspex coverings, plastic glasses and so on. Not the place you would take your much better half for a romantic meal for two.
Not quite sure I agree with his insinuations with regards to the quality of the food though. Unfortunately, the great paying public can be very gullible when it comes to quality.
For instance; serve up a bowl of curry, with a couple of serving spoons, dunked in it, accompanied by a mountain of rice served in a cold balti bowl, with a couple of 'bin lid' sized naans, and charge 8 quid for the lot, this is the typical style of your 3am BIR.
Now, take the same food cooked in the same kitchen but on a clean, white shiny plate, present a portion of the rice, shaped from a serving ring, with a couple of 5" lengths of chives placed on top as a garnish. Then offer a half size portion of curry presented in a beautifully decorated receptacle, garnish with a sprinkle of fresh coriander. Finally, offer two dinner plate sized, hot naans, brush with a coriander and garlic butter. All this served in a 'cosy' lit alcove of the restaurant with gentle background music and adequately friendly staff, and most would gladly pay 20 quid for the privilege!
All that glitters ain't gold ;D
There are many places cropping up in Manchester that claim to serve 'Traditional' Indian food, Zooks being such a place. I've never ate there so I can't really comment on how good they are.
I suspect that they will be very good for this reason, their focus seems to be to offer a 'dining' experience rather than a quick turn around, which can only be for the good of the diner.
Ray :)
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First of all very good and very valid comments - totally understand it can be hard to find good BIR food nowadays - i am from glasgow and moved 30 miles away - i now frequent a takeaway in Dumbarton called the TAJ - it is AMAZING - my local now and similar to the 80's BIR - they also stay open till 3am at the weekends !
Garry
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Oooo, just remembered, the Lasan Chicken tikka came 5th out of 6 on the Tikka group test :(
I guess their food isn't all that afterall ;D
Ray :)
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5th out of 6th well there you go !!
So much self hype from these celeb chefs that i don't believe
much of what is said anymore.
However i do feel for any owner who has to put up with foul mouth drunks.
Oh Oh are we getting another cook book soon !!!
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What all you guys are missing - why the article is well written and put together which helps promote the chef - he didnt write it! It was written by Angela Levin award winning journalist
http://angelalevin.org.uk/ (http://angelalevin.org.uk/)
A true fact: any business caters for its customers ( not always with quality ) and client el - if all that frequents an establishment are folks under the influence of alcohol between the hours of 2300 pm and 0300 am - Im afraid they will not experience a culinary delight of good quality Indian food. Also as pointed out - most of the TA's and restaurants go under the guise of Indian when in fact they are Pakistani as well. As far as the monkfish - ha ha ha very over priced - this guy is trying to be a Gordon Ramsay, Jamie Oliver, Rick Stein type which may or may not work and im sure he is looking for fame and fortune - reading between the lines in the article!
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What all you guys are missing - why the article is well written and put together which helps promote the chef - he didnt write it! It was written by Angela Levin award winning journalist http://angelalevin.org.uk/ (http://angelalevin.org.uk/)
True, something that completely failed to make any impact on my stream of consciousness the first time that I read the article, as did the quite amazing set of sponsorship logos on the good chef's apparel : Cobra, Benz, Aga, ... ! (can anyone make out the one on his left breast ? Look like a small flame with a six-or-so letter word commencing "LO?S?...").
A true fact: any business caters for its customers ( not always with quality ) and clientele - if all that frequents an establishment are folks under the influence of alcohol between the hours of 2300 pm and 0300 am - I'm afraid they will not experience a culinary delight of good quality Indian food.
But as that same chef wrote (via Ms Levin), just because your current clientele are piss artists doesn't mean that you have to stay saddled with them : "re-position yourself in the marketplace", throw out the drunks, attract the smart set and the world can be your oyster.
** Phil.
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Lasan? possibly.
Monkfish has always been outrageously priced - back in the early eighties it used to be about 9.50 sterling a portion and was called LOBSTER!
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I think this article is spot on with some of my experiences back in the early eighties, I used to stay weekends in east london with a couple of my mates at uni and we would reguarly end up in Brick Lane at 4.00 a.m. pissed out off our minds, give the waiters crap and have a meal for five to seven quid, but next day would pay the price , I have never ordered a Phall in my life but it is safe to say the Madras I was served would blow your arse of the next morning and we would end up with our heads out the car window next lunchtime on the way back to leafy Hertfordshire, be it down market Stevenage.
However all that said this Guy smacks of jealousy, just because other cuisines are overpriced and traditionaly so, he feels that he has to charge ridiculous prices and justifies it with the fresh quality produce label, he has obviously moved on from the cheap council estate punters that most of us were or are, and now caters for the sort of people who spend more on high quality unbleached third world ethecally sourced co operative produced toilet paper than we do on a curry and good luck to him , you know we have a curry house here in Pattaya Thailand that charges more for a curry than your average restuarant in the UK, they printed a recipe book last year and I went to buy it , it cost 23 quid in a country where the average daily wage is 4 quid, I looked through it and they apparently cook everything from scratch, no base sauce , needless to say I have never eaten there or purchased the book, however the owner is a millionare and I'm not.
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we have a curry house here in Pattaya Thailand that charges more for a curry than your average restuarant in the UK, they printed a recipe book last year and I went to buy it , it cost 23 quid in a country where the average daily wage is 4 quid, I looked through it and they apparently cook everything from scratch, no base sauce , needless to say I have never eaten there or purchased the book, however the owner is a millionare and I'm not.
I've never seen that book but I bet it doesn't contain the recipes used in the restaurant. The recipes in the book may be cooked from scratch but that doesn't mean the restaurant uses the same approach. It sounds like a place for tourists.