Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Les on February 28, 2011, 04:08 PM
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Just being reading this post online,
I've no idea if this preparation of a curry base is commonly done in restaurants, but I can talk (more or less) about what some of the worse Indian restaurants in the UK allegedly do.
Years back,I skimmed through a book on (UK) Indian restaurant cooking. I think it was The Curry Secret by Kris Dhillon, though if more than one book has been written on the subject it could well have been a different book.
It was interesting in a horrifying sort of way. At the time I had recently moved to the UK from India, and had been mystified/disgusted by the food served in Indian restaurants in the town I was living - I really couldn't understand quite what they had been doing to make the food so bad (particularly because the restaurants included some places that actually smelt pretty good if you walked past them earlier in the day while onions and spices were being fried). This book went a long way in explaining how this really unpleasant food had been produced.
I certainly didn't read the book carefully, or at length, and it was about a decade ago, so some details may be wrong. But from what I do recall, the method for most 'slow-cooked meats' was more or less as follows:
Boil meat (or poultry, or whatever else) in water flavored with turmeric. When meat is done, discard water, shred meat and set aside for when dish is ordered.
Make a very large batch of generic 'curry sauce' by frying onions, ginger, garlic, tomatoes, and a few spices (no meat added at this point). When a specific dish is ordered, add more of certain ingredients to the sauce for that dish - e.g. sprinkle in large amounts of Kasoori methi (dried fenugreek), or add extra cream, etc. then add plain shredded meat, re-heat and serve.
This explained not just the bland tastelessness of most dishes served, but the strangeness of the many menu items:
for example many places had (or still have?) one whole section of the menu devoted to foods strongly flavored with dried fenugreek - though a popular enough spice in Indian it is not crumbled at random over virtually any dish in the manner offered by these restaurants.
Another menu section in one place that sticks particularly in my mind was a choice of 'South Indian' chicken, pork, lamb, or beef in a cream sauce with pineapple and flambeed brandy (no, I did not eat in that restaurant, I simply read its menu in the window, shuddered and moved on.)
Clearly, this type of flavoring is simply a ploy of using strong-tasting or distinctive ingredients to make one generic sauce taste different. It is also clearly different from the spice/onion base mentioned in C. Punjabi as in that case certain key ingredients are being prepared in bulk and then combined and cooked together with the meats.
(Of course, preparing a large batch of a few basic ingredients that are commmonly included is not necessarily a bad thing. Independently of cookbooks and simply for her own convenience my (Indian) mother-in-law has for years made a base by frying a large batch of onions, ginger, garlic, tomato, cumin, coriander and turmeric, which she then freezes in smaller portions and uses as a short-cut in her vegetable dishes. It works for her. Almost all her food is cooked in one particular regional style, and there is not usually a huge variation in the type of spicing she uses, so making up a large batch in advance makes sense for the way she cooks. )
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This is not a surprising view of it and I am sure if you asked most TA/BIR chefs for thier view it would be very similar. I know the IG staff are dumbfounded by my want to learn to cook BIR style rather than traditional. Each and every time I ask for hints tips or demos etc. they always try to steer me in a more traditional route.
I think this sort of view is more because they are ashamed perhaps, that TA/BIR is referred to as Indian, when in reality it is nothing like traditional Indian Fare.
Incidentally, where was this taken from?
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Hi Axe
I was searching for Daag curry base when i came across it here
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/ (http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/)
HS
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That was quite an interesting link, thanks.
I've been working with Indian IT workers for about eight years and I know the guys pretty well. We've been out several times to BIR restaurants (they seem to favour the Sultan's Palace, Liverpool) and there is no question that they have enjoyed the food.
Of course it's not like "Mum's cooking" but they still seem to like it well enough.
Paul
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Hi Paul
As we all know "Nothing" is like Mum's cooking ;D
But I suppose it all comes down to individual taste again,
It would be a boring life if we all liked the same thing.
HS
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there is no question that they have enjoyed the food.
Of course it's not like "Mum's cooking" but they still seem to like it well enough.
I guess it's horses for courses and to add to that, the Indian family across the way from us (over here for husbands training at Amex), often buys from a local Modern Indian Restaurant.
The eGullet site is pretty good but I have found it lacking in Indian Cuisine, how do you find it?
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The eGullet site is pretty good but I have found it lacking in Indian Cuisine, how do you find it?
First time I've ever come across it, Not that impressed, wouldn't go out of my way to go there again
HS
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Hi Hotstuff,
What the author observes in their story is pretty much what you would expect to hear from someone that has eaten traditional Indian food for many years.
The thing to remember is, I would say the majority of Brits aren't really that interested in tradition Indian food. Often described as being disappointing or bland. Of course, a fantastic chef will cook something quite amazing in the traditional style but we hear so many reports of peoples disappointment.
My view on BIR food is, it was developed with the British palette in mind, using ingredients that were readily available in Britian, forming the foundation (base) to most of the dishes on the menu.
For example, I have an old traditional cookbook called 'Indian Cooking' written by Savitri Chowdary, and in it, there is a recipe for seekh kebab. After making this recipe, I was so disappointed with the flavours. There was a hint of what we get in our BIR's but it was a very subtle hint, nothing like what I want to taste in my seekh kebab. I guess what I'm saying is, we (Brits) tend to prefer our "Indian" food, slightly overspiced in comparison to the traditional version, whereby the spice is used more subtly and probably better balanced. Fortunately, our BIR/TA chefs know exactly what we want, and more often than not, hit the spot but they won't touch the stuff.
Just my two penneth,
Ray :)
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I hear what your saying Ray
So why can't traditional Indian cooking be made to our liking? (And your going to say it won't be traditional)
It makes me wonder what we are missing when the chef's that cook this stuff, won't touch it.
HS
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Hi HS,
I hear what your saying Ray
So why can't traditional Indian cooking be made to our liking?
HS
I've got no idea mate, I guess our tastebuds are ever so slightly different than theirs?
I have an Indian friend called Jimmy (Chiman) and I was at his place a month or so back. He offered me a cup of spicy tea, knowing my love of "Indian" food. He boiled a pan of milk (whole) along with a cinnamon stick, lots of sugar, a piece of ginger, a bulb of garlic, and one or two other ingredients that I forget. He strained the milk into a teacup and gave it a little sprinkle of Garam Masala.
It was without doubt, the vilest thing I've tasted in a long long time. I honestly thought that he was taking the p***.
He was astonished that I didn't like, he simply couldn't not believe that I couldn't drink it, knowing my love of Indian food. He wasn't offended, just dumbfounded that I thought it was well rank.
He told me that he had drunk this 'spicy tea' since he was a child back in India, and it was a firm favourite back home. Just goes to show how different our tastebuds are!
I think that it must come from our childhoods, suffering years of bland British food, then from nowhere, you get this taste explosion that is BIR, and we are hooked forever, trying spicier and hotter dishes each time, until before you know it, our mouths are so heat resistant, it could actually survive re-entry into the earths atmosphere ;D
Ray :)
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Are you right or are you right,
British food is not renowned for blowing your taste bud's. But is that our own fault for not trying to improve it, being happy with what granny churned out about 50 years ago, I think us Brit's are stuck in the past when it comes to food, afraid to change cause granny wouldn't approve
Hs
And could someone please tell me what "Daag" Curry is
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Hot
A daag is a dry, onion plus spices base. Look for 50 best curries book.
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Thanks commis
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Ray,
I love my chai masala - but it is made from Tea bags (Palanquin brand) sort of like an Earl Grey with a black pepper kick. Not the same as authentic stuff stewed in a saucepan with whole spices but a lot nicer to my taste.
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The British Curry is one of the greatest inventions ever. They were designed to be eaten with (or after) 6 pints of Lager on a weekly / monthly basis. The hotter it is, the more manly you are - it's a simple fact. Finishing your first Phall is a rite of passage among the curry elite.
Compare this to rural India where grandma cooks for the whole family. Spices are freely available and cheap and they help disguise the taste of meat that might be a very cheap cut, or past its best. They eat this every day so the spicing has to be minimal. I don't think I could live on British Currys every day (maybe for a week or two). Imagine the carnage if you tried! I'd need to get a bidet for a start and I'd constantly stink of curry seeping from my pores. That's not to mention the health implications of that much fat every day.
I do take exception to the authors comment about some of the works takeaways use a generic base sauce e.t.c. Actually some of the best BIR's I know cook like this. In fact, I tried one last week that advertised the use of 6 different bases and individual spicing rather than spice mix - it was terrible. Give me a 5 minute Roshney Chicken from Chutneys every time.
I'm not sure what the point of this mini-rant is. I guess what I'm trying to say is lets differentiate between Indian food and a British Curry. They are two totally separate types of cuisine. I don't ever suggest to my friends we meet up to eat some Indian food, we are going out for a curry. Fast forward 20 years and we might see the 'Indian' monika dropped from the menus. The UK will be full of curry houses, most of which will be staffed by European chefs due to the tighter upcoming work permit regulations.
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Fast forward 20 years and we might see the 'Indian' monika dropped from the menus. The UK will be full of curry houses, most of which will be staffed by European chefs due to the tighter upcoming work permit regulations.
OMG, my worst nightmare : "BIR goes Nouvelle Cuisine". 2cm portion of rice, 1cm high, with three tiny pieces of guinea fowl, Soay sheep and langoustine, drizzled in an artistic pattern with a sauce containing spices, chocolate and anchovies, and priced at just less than a Bentley Continental. Aarrrgggghhhhh !
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;D
I was thinking more along the lines of them churning out the standard BIR fayre but you are right that would be a disaster. Imagine the local rugby team turning up after 10 pints to eat that!
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The British Curry is one of the greatest inventions ever. They were designed to be eaten with (or after) 6 pints of Lager on a weekly / monthly basis. The hotter it is, the more manly you are - it's a simple fact. Finishing your first Phall is a rite of passage among the curry elite.
This made me chuckle as it reminded of a an old friend who challenged a TA over the phone in a drunken stupor one night. On a lads night out we crashed back to his gaff and decided it was time for a ruby TA. So list in hand he rang the local TA who took his order. At the point of his own specific dish , a Chicken Madras, he got brave and started hurling abuse down the phone about the last Madras he ordered not being hot enough. He added in his own immortal words "make sure you add extra chilli this time, as much as you like!".
Concerned only with my own fast growing need to eat onion bhaji and poppadums etc. we waited for the delivery. 20mins the door bell goes and one of us retrieves the several bags of Curry that was ordered, which is then handed out. Amongst this the familiar tin foil and carded top container with the immortal words Chicken Madras Extra Hot. "That's mine, give it 'ere" were the last words we heard from him that evening.
He opened the container and poured the entire contents over the mountain of Pilau Rice on his plate. Then proceed to take 3 massive and quite quick mouthfuls in his proud display of manliness! This was quickly followed by his face turning a very bright shade of scarlet and his forehead perspiring profusely. Shortly after that, he rushed to the kitchen and downed two pints of water. Before proceeding into the toilet where he spent the next half hour, draped over the porcelain telephone throwing up and groaning in a low tone about how hot his mouth was.
Silly boy! My CTM was lovely :)
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@Chris
Great mini-rant :)
@Axe
Brilliant story :)
@Any
I would love to suggest to the author of the article referred to in the OP link to visit one of my favourite BIR's the Mogul in Brookwood Surrey. Here you can clearly see that the chef takes a serious amount of pride in his craft, I would hate to think how offended he would be if someone were to suggest that he did not put his heart into his food.
I have only unfortunately been there twice this year, however, each time I thank the waiter and ask him to pass complements on to the chef. The Chef always comes to the table to have a little chat about the cooking etc too! really great :) - Trouble is I don't go there enough to ask him for cooking tips unfortunately :( - although you can watch them cook through the saloon style doors.
ATB
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I recall going to the Maharajah of Chislehurst one evening with a group of friends, one of whom had never eaten a BIR curry before. We helped him to choose the mildest dish on the menu (probably a Korma), and all went well until he asked what we were eating. I told him mine was a Bangalore Phal, and he asked if he could try some. I said "of course", and he took a spoonful. What followed was not unlike Ray's story : he drank three whole jugs of water, pausing only long enough between each for the waiter to fetch a refill, and ate not another mouthful the whole evening. Very sad -- I should probably have warned him off, rather than allowing him to share.
** Phil.
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I loved the phrase "mini-rant" and indeed felt a lot of the criticism of BIR cooking (and bases) were assertions that lacked evidence.
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I loved the phrase "mini-rant" and indeed felt a lot of the criticism of BIR cooking (and bases) were assertions that lacked evidence.
OK, but the original poster (Anzu) is Indian. Imagine we moved to India, and found when we get there that there were a large number of IBRs ("Indian British Restaurants") that had found that British food sold well to the locals but needed (a) to be tailored to local tastes, and (b) simplified so that a complete meal could be prepared in no more than twenty minutes. Do you not think that we might justifiably have a "mini-rant" about how disgusting IBR food is ?
** Phil.
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I don't think that would be comparing like for like Phil as I don't think we have a cuisine to compare but I do take your point and you may well be right, nevertheless I'd like to think we might be a bit more evidence based that the writer.
However on that note I already rant about how disgusting British or pseudo or adopted British food is and there are plenty sources of evidence, e.g. Little Chef, Greggs.
Steve
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I already rant about how disgusting British or pseudo or adopted British food is and there are plenty sources of evidence, e.g. Little Chef
My G@d, you've virtually admitted in public that you've eaten in a Little Chef; have you no shame at all ??? ;D
But on a more serious note : when you say --
I don't think we have a cuisine to compare
are you suggesting that there is no such thing as British cuisine (or Scots, or Welsh, or Irish, or English) ? If you are, I could not agree. Just to name a few national dishes, we have steak, kidney, mushroom and oyster pudding (as served at Simpsons-in-the-Strand), haggis, Irish stew, the Roast Beefe of Olde England, lemon pancakes, the full English breakfast, porrage, lava bread, and so on. I believe that there is very clear evidence that there exists am easily identifiable British cuisine, and that -- well prepared -- it can stand comparison with French, Chinese, Indian, Spanish, Thai & so on. Would you really not agree, or have I simply misunderstood you ?
** Phil.
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No Phil I maybe not explained it very well but I just don't think I'd know where to start if we were to say open up a British takeaway in Mombai - I mean if places like Greggs represent what we have to offer as the best of British takeaway food then it means we are a land of pie, sausage roll and doughnut eaters.
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OK, but then as you said, we are not comparing like for like, because (as far as I know) BIR cuisine isn't modelled on take-away food as sold/eaten in India; rather, it is based on traditional Indian cuisine, but modified to suit the western palate and to allow fast preparation.
So on that basis, you would have to work out how to modify (for example) steak (that's a no-no for a start, in Hindu India), kidney (--ditto--), mushroom and oyster pudding to suit the Indian palate and to be capable of being served in 20 minutes or less !
** Phil.
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OK, but then as you said, we are not comparing like for like, because (as far as I know) BIR cuisine isn't modelled on take-away food as sold/eaten in India; rather, it is based on traditional Indian cuisine, but modified to suit the western palate and to allow fast preparation.
So on that basis, you would have to work out how to modify (for example) steak (that's a no-no for a start, in Hindu India), kidney (--ditto--), mushroom and oyster pudding to suit the Indian palate and to be capable of being served in 20 minutes or less !
** Phil.
yup however I think we could manage that Scottish delicacy of deef fried Mars Bars in batter without too much difficulty but it might spawn a forum called Scottish Recipes Online in which 30 or 40 different batters recipes will be debated to find the "secret ingredient".
;D
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"secret ingredient".
A dram or two of whiskey, What else ;D
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yup however I think we could manage that Scottish delicacy of deef fried Mars Bars in batter without too much difficulty but it might spawn a forum called Scottish Recipes Online in which 30 or 40 different batters recipes will be debated to find the "secret ingredient".
ROTFL (once again), which I really needed after mowing the lawn and tidying up the garden !
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Hi, this subject seems to have drifted into the area of poor quality UK food.
I could not agree more with what has been said. However high street fast food outlets are not the only source and the shares in Greggs at this point in time are doing well.
This tells us something :( they did say the share price rise was due to bacon/sausage butties and coffee sales. Also would you consider street food in other country's any better ? like the simple samosa cooked in oil.
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This tells us something :( they did say the share price rise was due to bacon/sausage butties and coffee sales. Also would you consider street food in other country's any better ? like the simple samosa cooked in oil.
Now there's a hard choice to make, bacon in a farmhouse door stop oozing in real butter or deep fried cripsy samosa stuffed with lamb!
Can I have both? ;D
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Some of the stories above made me laugh.
My first curry experience was at work when a colleague photocopied a bunch of copies of a local Indian restuarant's menu. I picked "Beef Vindaloo (VH)" as I liked the description but paid little attention to the (VH) part.
So I get my Beef Vindaloo and take in 3 big spoons of the sauce. Within half a minute my face was apparently red as a tomato and I was in so much pain I could for some reason feel my heart beat inside my ears. I ended up getting through it with each spoon containing 3/4 rice and 1/4 vindaloo. The next day the song 'Ring Of Fire' by Johnny Cash came to mind quite often.
Turns out (VH) stood for Very Hot.
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The actual fact that the ingredients and methods of cooking the TA/BIR offend the purist and traditional "real" Indian food is not the point on this site surely?
What IS acknowledged by our very membership here is that we are so crazy about the TA BIR in this country that we here are striving to emulate that very taste- the whole purpose and intent of this forum anyway?
We should not be ashamed of the fact that our particular brand and taste in this country dont meet up to the true standards of real Indian food- I care not- all I want to do is get as close to the stuff served up at our local curry house which I am so in love with!
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Hi Broski, welcome to the nut house ;D
I totally agree with all your points. In my experience, the traditional versions of what we are served in our favourite TA/BIR near enough always fail to reach my expectations.
And you are quite correct, what 99% of the members here are trying to achieve is that wonderful, unhealthy addictive curry, that we enjoy far too much for our own good ;D
Ray :)