Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on February 19, 2011, 05:30 PM
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i know we've been round the houses on this one before.
i'm now good enough sorted on vindaloo.
CTM is something i'm not really a fan myself but family quite like along with friends. Had the "brown/yellow" version in restaurant just recently which has given me the impulse to try and get a better feel for this dish.
So far i've not found a recipe that sits well against the BIR version (either version red or brown/yellow).
CK's is the recipe that i make if making CTM (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,539.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,539.0.html)).
i'm not keen to try any of the existing recipes. what i'd really appreciate is members thoughts on what makes the BIR CTM and if possible what ingredients each of us feel makes the dish for the recipe they use.
Please just throw them in the pot. any alternatives thoughts appreciated too.
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Can't help on this one, Jerry : CTM is not something I ever order or eat. But you do ask for "alternative thoughts", and when ordering the set menu at the Taj of Kent, I always ask them to substitute Chicken Shagorana (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Chicken+Shagorana+%2Bsite%3Atajofkent.co.uk&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) for CTM, which they willingly do. And Chicken Shagorana, despite being made with Chicken Tikka rather than normal pre-cooked "fresh" chicken, is a really nice dish, as is Tandoor Chicken Jhoul (from the Ababil, (http://ababiltandoori.com/) Eltham). Both avoid the cloying flavour of CTM, which is what really puts me off it.
** Phil.
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Phil,
i share your outlook. i'm hoping that by fine tuning (more like drastic tuning) it might just be possible to get back to the intent of CTM at it's roots (before it was spoilt with kindness by BIR's). the version at my local restaurant is not bad - not something i'd crave but a useful recipe to have to hand.
on a ps not come across shagorana although it sounds a tad rude. what is it based around to give me a feel for what it is - the description in the link sounds good but gives very little away.
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I like a bit of coconut taste in my CTM so some coconut block would be tickety boo.
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Chicken Shagorana (I agree about the name) as served at the Taj is not that easy to describe : for one thing, it is a while since we last ate it ! But basically it is a Chicken Tikka based dish that is served in a rather pleasant, not thick, not creamy, hottish reddish sauce with herbs. Rather than waffle, I will make a point of ordering it next time, and try to make some notes and report back !
** Phil.
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Stephen,
nice idea that which i'd not thought of. i currently make 2 versions of CK's - block & coconut flour. for me the block has a taste which is difficult to cook out during the fry. however i see the recipe being based on a masala sauce which perhaps could be pre cooked at some stage to overcome the minor irritation.
ps i use block in base and works real well.
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But basically it is a Chicken Tikka based dish that is served in a rather pleasant, not thick, not creamy, hottish reddish sauce
sounds familiar to me as what i would describe a top notch CTM. not sure on the herbs but potentially very intriguing.
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Where do you live, Jerry ? Might be worth a visit to the T of K if you are in the South-East ...
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have revisited dippies CTM as i think this is the closest existing recipe i've thought gets to BIR.
i feel most of the recipe stands spot on and needs no improvement:
oil 4 tbsp
almond powder 3 tbsp
coconut powder (flour) 2 tbsp
sugar 1 tbsp - i used 1 tsp and think depending upon your taste it's optional
meat ie chicken tikka
single cream 1 tbsp (i think carnation might work and needs checking out)
the real work to go is on sorting out the masala sauce. i have dipuraja's recipe as follows and used 4 tbsp per portion:
yogurt 500 units
garlic/ginger 15
methi 15
mix powder 15
kebab paste 15
kashmiri paste 15
tandoori paste 30
tikka paste 30
lemon dressing 30
red colour optional
it's quite canny that the ifindforu proportions of paste are the same as dipuraja.
trouble is in this masala sauce the pataks taste comes through far too strong and well out of balance. in fact i'm disbelieving at the moment that the pataks does anything for the masala sauce - hence the interest in what works for other members
in the above masala sauce the g/g, mix powder, methi and lemon dressing sit very well.
it's just what else needs to go into the masala to make it top notch restaurant standard - i'm sure we already have all the information in the CR0 existing recipes they just need the best bits collating or pulling out.
ps Phil - i'm in NW (warrington)
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it's just what else needs to go into the masala to make it top notch restaurant standard.
At the risk of being told to go and wash my mouth out, it seems to be quite widely reported that the key ingredient that doesn't feature in your list is tomato soup (or ketchup). Sorry :-X
ps Phil - i'm in NW (warrington)
I wonder how many nested containers you would need to ensure that a frozen version survived the worst that the Royal Mail can throw at it ... ::)
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I like a bit of coconut taste in my CTM too AND OF COURSE BLADES tikka recipe, simply the best IMO
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Phil, artistpaul,
i'll leave tom soup out of my pot as i have the dish from my local restaurant in mind (and boss was not happy after the last venture with it).
the tikka is a crucial element and easily over looked - many thanks for the prompt. in quite a few TA i've noticed that tikka has quite a significant contribution in the overall dish taste.
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I rarely make 'curry' anymore, choosing to opt for dryer dishes. But after peoples comments about using left over marinade I thought I migth see what it was like cooked up.
So whilst yesterdays Tandoori chicken was scorching itself in my oven, I took the remaining marinade and poured it in a small frying pan. I through in some coconut bar (having run out of powder) and some ground almond. Surprisingly, the result was very good as I really didn't think it would be up to much. But I was wrong, the taste was very good. Perhaps a little too sweet from the coconut bar and I think the almond needed a little while longer in the pan but overall, it was good. The colour was on par for the browner CTM you mention Jerry, mainly due to the fact I do not use colouring in my marinade. Of course being a Tandoori marinade I add chilli powder, which gave the sauce a little kick which a CTM would not normally have.
Generally, I have always considered a CTM to be a red and slightly more savoury korma but with Chiken Tikka of course. So I have always wondered about the use of tomato soup. I don''t doubt this tale as we know it, but I wonder how much tomato soup was used in proportion to other ingredients. I tried using tomato soup once before but the soup was very powerful and it took alot of spicing to even come close to reducing that tomato soup taste. After a recent visit to a 'cheap' TA near us, I ordered a CTM as a trial of his standard dishes. It was awful, far too much going on with it, which given his openess about using Pataks is very understandable. But all the while I was thinking it resembled my efforts with tomato soup.
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hi phil lol i work for the RM and they do a 9 o'clock special delivery which should be guaranteed to be delivered by 9am the next morning, if you put your frozen container in a polystrene box with a tight fitting poly lid it should still be frozen mate ;D by the time you get it.
jerry a masala sauce and tandoori tikka marinade are different terrys' was the marinade. have you tried the red masala paste i posted years ago? and the korma paste, for a CTM i would use a combo of the 2. and try powder rather than the block at least you will be able to have better control on the sweetness ie sugar.
regards
gary
here is the korma paste
korma masala paste
enough coconut powder to make it a thickish paste
100ml cream
1tsp garlic puree
1tsp ginger puree
1tbsp ground almonds
2tbsp caster sugar
put g&g almonds and cream into a bowl and mix well then add the coconut powder until it thickens up
here's the link to the red masala paste
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1173.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1173.0)
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If it helps i have never seen any tom soup anywhere in a Bir.
When you think about it there would be tins of soup all over the place :-)
never ever seen any tom soup in a bir...ever.
hope this helps.
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If it helps i have never seen any tom soup anywhere in a Bir.
When you think about it there would be tins of soup all over the place :-)
never ever seen any tom soup in a bir...ever.
hope this helps.
totally agree mate :)
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masala sauce and tandoori tikka marinade are different terrys' was the marinade.
have you tried the red masala paste i posted years ago? and the korma paste, for a CTM
parker21,
i would have had my mind on other things "basics" then. now they are sorted i'm tidying up so to speak. i am 100% convinced on the info and don't think i need to look further. many many thanks. what you say sits very well with me.
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i gave the parker21 CTM ago and was well pleased.
i can't really see anything to change in the recipe.
CTM dish
1) oil 4 tbsp
2) base 4 tbsp, tom puree 1 htsp, mix pwdr 1 tsp, bunjarra 1 htbsp
3) tandoori masala 1 hdsp, korma masala 1 hdsp, base 4 tbsp
4) chicken tikka
5) base 240ml +100ml water, coconut flour 2 htbsp
6) UHT cream 2 tbsp
Korma masala (units)
cream 100
ground almonds 60
coconut flour 60
caster sugar 5
milk 20
going fwd intend to add more milk for ease of measuring out. i made a 0.4 batch which made 60ml.
Tandoori masala (units)
pataks tandoori paste 15
pataks tikka paste 15
pataks kashmiri 7.5
yogurt 45
fresh coriander 45
lemon dressing 5
mustard oil 5
tandoori masala pwdr 5
mint sauce 10
green chilli paste 5
i made a 1.0 batch which made 60ml. it's this tandoori masala that makes the dish and it's anyones guess what the BIR recipe is.
i've racked my brains and can't think of anything going fwd to change other than possibly to up the mint sauce to say 15.
many thanks to parker21 for the ideas - much appreciated.
LHS tandoori masala RHS korma masala
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/16cf1bacb53bd2b2a687e2ba6245795f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#16cf1bacb53bd2b2a687e2ba6245795f.jpg)
CTM dish
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/beb3c4976c623d0b1c99ebb2888ef5a8.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#beb3c4976c623d0b1c99ebb2888ef5a8.jpg)
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now made the dish twice more ie No3 & No4.
on No3 i used up the tandoori masala which resulted in ~1.5 hdsp going into the dish. that nasty patak taste raised it's head again. i've come across this before - too much pataks is no good but too little and that little zing it brings is gone.
anyhow tweaked the tandoori masala slightly and seems much better:
Tandoori masala (units)
pataks tandoori paste 5
pataks tikka paste 5
pataks kashmiri 2.5
yogurt 60
fresh coriander 45
lemon dressing 5
mustard oil 5
tandoori masala pwdr 5
mint sauce 10
green chilli paste 5
next want to get both the korma and the tandoori masala into a more liquid form so i can gauge amount on the chef spoon.
may also change the tandoori masala powder from leena brand "pink" to say TRS "red"
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hi jerry have you just tried using the pataks tandoori paste mixed with coconut powder and sugar a tsp of rajah tandoori masala( try mixing with a little water to release the true colour) and cream, i made a chicken tandoori masala, which turned out to be quite a surprise, i suppose that the only thing missing was the actual chicken tikka i had used precooked chicken, my best mate's daughter scoffed the lot, and she loves my CTM. cheated a little on the colouring side though not altering the taste.
hope this helps and it may help you stop the pataks after taste coming through lol
regards
gary ;)
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parker21,
not tried reducing the "pataks" element down to just the tandoori paste. i've stuck to using all 3 ie tandoori, tikka and kashmiri - it works for tikka meat. i think by reducing the proportion i'm now sorted.
the coconut powder is going into the korma paste which i combine in the pan with the tandoori. i'm also adding extra coconut powder direct to the pan for a little texture.
i have the rajah as well as the TRS and will try the rajah on the next go (no 5 & 6).
ps fully agree the tikka chicken is a must. talking scoffed the lot - my good lady normally is happy to stick at 1 off curry night per week but this CTM has changed that and looking at 3 off in the week - very best wishes.
for info the "pataks" taste that is not good is what i would describe as "tarty" best guess being down to vinegar or some additive. trouble is the pataks is better in the dish than out. a distant dream would be to make the tandoori paste from scratch ie no bought jars.
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found myself making tikka masala (ifindforu) and tandoori masala (parker21) at the same time.
so far i'd based the tandoori masala on tikka masala but tweaked it to what i feel a CTM tasteslike. this is difficult (and probably wrong) as i don't know what a tandoori masala should taste like and of course your tasting it raw (ie without the rest of the CTM ingredients).
anyhow cut long story short. i looked a % composition of ifindforu masala and tweaked the parker21 to it. the tandoori masala i feel tastes much better as a result.
cooking 2 off CTM tonight which will confirm or otherwise
for info revised tandoori masala:
Tandoori masala (units)
pataks tandoori paste 5
pataks tikka paste 5
pataks kashmiri 2.5
yogurt 45 (was 60)
fresh coriander 30 (was 45)
lime juice 5 (was lemon dressing)
mustard oil 10 (was 5)
tandoori masala pwdr 5 (now Rajah)
mint sauce 20 (was 10)
green chilli paste 5
milk 30 new
garam masala 2.5 new
one thing on my mind is what do BIR's do. upto press i've always thought of tikka and tandoori masala as different. trouble is now i just can't see BIR's being fussed on making 2 lots of sauce that look very similar and are not a million miles away on taste either.
any thoughts appreciated.
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hi jerry my thoughts are that they would use the same marinade just adding tandoori red to the tandoori chicken marinade and sunset yellow to the tikka so as to differentiate between the 2. obviously they would taste similar but different because of the leg or thigh being on the bone. not sure that the colouring isn't just for US lol!
yours is similar to mine only not mint (lamb dishes)/green chilli/lime/milk/GM. i use mouchak(although i did have great results with rajvers) mix powder/a pinch of methi/salt and lemon dressing, bearing in mind that this is for the marinade.
regards
gary
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upto press i've always thought of tikka and tandoori masala as different. trouble is now i just can't see BIR's being fussed on making 2 lots of sauce that look very similar and are not a million miles away on taste either.
I've never been a fan of CTM, but I do enjoy some of the other dishes that involve chicken tikka or tandoori chicken being finished off in a spicy sauce. Two of my favourites are Tandoori Chicken Jhoul and Chicken Shagorana, both of which are significantly different from CTM. So I suspect that some restaurants are willing to spend the time making two or more different sauces (after all, a BIR sauce is basically a last-minute assembly rather than something the chef has spent all day slaving over), but I would also tend to think that if a restaurant offers both Chicken Tikka Masala and Tandoori Chicken Masala then the sauce will be identical modulo colouring, simply because the restauranteur will know his clientele's taste and will expect the vast majority to like and expect something CTM-like.
** Phil.
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parker21/Phil,
what you both say is exactly the conclusion i've come to ie the marinade is the same except for coloring.
the only additional difference i can see is the addition of tandoori powder to the tandoori version which would be optional in the tikka version. i think the likelihood for most TA is to use exactly the same.
ps Phil never been fan myself of CTM but good lady and familly/friends are. with the home made version the addition of the green chilli paste peps it up just enough for me to quite like the CTM on the qt.
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made 3 off CTM (Nos 5, 6 & 7) in advance last night (along with the rice) so as to have effectively a Take IN when ready to eat. worked a treat.
made the 3 off identical in terms of ingredient as the 1 st off the line tasted spot on.
i'm used to cooking using the hot method and find it difficult to convince myself to slowboat for the "creamy" dishes. i have experimented on the methods in the past and thought this was opportunity to put my mind at rest. so adopted 3 off different cooking methods:
dish No 5 - dipuraja or slowboat - all ingredients in pan and heat till done
dish No 6 - hot fry all spices together then add base ie oil, chef of base, tom puree, mix powder, bunjarra, tandoori masala, korma masala all in pan and hot fry before adding rest of ingredients
dish No 7 - hot fry in sort of 3/4 stages,
a) oil, tom puree,mix powder, bunjarra, chef base
b) tandoori masala, korma masala, chef base
c) tikka meat, coconut flour, water
d) base, cream
the outcome was as expected for this "creamy" type of dish - all 3 methods produced identical result.
the tandoori masala and korma masala are unchanged from the previous post. i used 1 chef spoon or 4 tbsp in each portion (which i believe is the same amount used in the previous dishes just a little more milk added to the korma to ease handling). the rajah tandoori powder (or TRS etc) worked better than the pink leena brand which is softer in taste.
i'm now sorted on this.
will do external link to pics
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/CTM_parker21/th_ctm_parker21004.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/CTM_parker21/?action=view¤t=ctm_parker21004.jpg)
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what you both say is exactly the conclusion i've come to ie the marinade is the same except for coloring.
I have no doubt that some outlets may well do this, but i'm not convinced this is a standard practice. Comparison of Tikka to Tandoori from my experiences not only show a different colour but finish and taste as well. Tandoori always appears to have had a thicker marinade that is hotter and deeper in taste than Tikka. Since they are making two marinades, it provides the perfect opportunity to vary them. Just a thought.
I only recently learnt that the restaurants use a Chef's Masala sauce. I am now even more convinced that the CTM sauce is just a korma with this Chef's Masala added to it. The IG doesn't use a Korma Masala though, they add coconut etc, straight to the pan, then ladle in the base and finally cream or condensed milk. I don't know if bunjarra would be added to a CTM, but it certainly sounds like a tasty thing to do.
Sterling efforts Jerry. :)
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parker21/Phil,
what you both say is exactly the conclusion i've come to ie the marinade is the same except for coloring.
Ah, sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I don't actually believe that the two marinades are the same; rather, than the two sauces are the same for Chicken Tikka Masala and Tandoori Chicken Masala. My belief is that the marinades for Chicken Tikka and Tandoori Chicken are different, and that the Tandoori Chicken marinade is also used for Lamb Tikka. I would not like to guess which marinade is used for Tandoori King Prawn , but I suspect it is more likely to be the Chicken Tikka marinade than the Tandoori Chicken.
** Phil.
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Axe,
appreciate the extra insight. your chef's masala is what i'm calling tandoori masala.
on the coconut/almond straight in the pan i've seen this in the maliks video and i think most TA must do same down to the texture of the dish. the parker21 method of making the korma sauce (made in advance ~24hrs) took me by surprise on how well it works. in the recipe i added back some direct addition to give a touch of texture.
Phil,
no probs either way. it's that "additional" difference of adding in the tandoori powder that i was uncertain on but now see that it's a must have.
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chewytikka's masala (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6005.msg59904#msg59904 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6005.msg59904#msg59904)) reminded me that i've been tweaking this recipe. it's still work in progress but not bad.
have combined the korma and tandoori masala into one red masala as i don't need them separate for the dishes i make.
have added in veg ghee and tamarind following chriswg recommendation and switched cream for yogurt following Axe suggestion.
i use 1 chef (4 tbsp) in CTM. i still have intend to try out tgad's version (the pataks originally put me off) and perhaps do a combination to complete the journey (the info is in the 1st post ie tgads)(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3672.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3672.0))
red masala (units, read as millilitre)
pasco tandoori paste 7.5 (was 5)
pasco tikka paste 5
pataks kashmiri 2.5
yogurt 60 (was 45)
fresh coriander 30
lime juice 5
mustard oil 10
tandoori masala pwdr 5
mint 20 (now using dried mint)
green chilli paste 15 (was 5)
garam masala 2.5
ground almonds 15 (was 60)
coconut flour 15 (was 60)
caster sugar 5
veg ghee 15
salt 2.5
tamarind 5
ideally needs 24 hrs before use
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in making this week have realise i use far more yogurt than i thought. the amount of tamarind is also key to getting the taste coming through and sometimes needs a little more adding (mine is quite thick and difficult to measure in small qty).
red masala (units, read as millilitre)
pasco tandoori paste 7.5 (was 5)
pasco tikka paste 5
pataks kashmiri 2.5
yogurt 90 (was 60)
fresh coriander 30
lime juice 5
mustard oil 10
tandoori masala pwdr 5
mint 20 (now using dried mint)
green chilli paste 15 (was 5)
garam masala 2.5
ground almonds 15 (was 60)
coconut flour 15 (was 60)
caster sugar 5
veg ghee 15
salt 2.5
tamarind 5
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/01d9b286cb49821162de0dc5d98cd189.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#01d9b286cb49821162de0dc5d98cd189.JPG)
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somethings gone wrong with my last batch of the masala. i need to retrace my steps.
the masala came out tasting far too strong in the dish.
out of curiosity i ended up combining it with tgads and result is promising. have yet to cook CTM with it.
one thing i have realised is that dried mint is not ideal for red masala. i will be switching back to Coleman's garden mint. it's nothing to do with taste but the small pieces of dried mint seem to stand out in the finished dish and don't look good.
ps the only thing i don't feel needs to be in the dish and puts it back more to parker21 original recipe is taking out the garam. other than that i've just not measured it out properly as i've rechecked the data and it's ok against what i've used before. another possibility is that is was quite thick and i may have put too much in the dish.
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the combined parker21 and tgad masala worked a treat.
i now think i just used too much of the parker21 masala in the dish - over zealous with the chef spoon. in switching from cream to yogurt seems to have made it more concentrated.
going forward intend to take the garam out of the parker21 as the tgad already contains it and use the combined masala.
link to tgad http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3672.msg60299#msg60299 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3672.msg60299#msg60299)
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Jerry, I can't wait until you crack this as I have tendency to follow your guidence. Looks like you are on it. Could you post your definitive CTM, I am sure most of us would appreciate that?
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Panpot,
i'm still working on pizza and have not had as much time as i would like to crack this - it's still work in progress but very close to my local restaurant.
given the confusion i caused above the current recipe is a follows. it remains inspired by parker21 and complimented by tgad (both star members):
red masala (ml)
tandoori paste(pasco) 7.5
tikka paste(pasco) 5
kashmiri masala(pataks) 2.5
yogurt 90
fresh coriander 30
lemon dressing 5
mustard oil 10
tandoori masala pwdr 5
mix pwdr 2.5
mint (colmans NOT Dry) 30
green chilli paste 15
g/g paste 5
ground almonds 15
coconut pwdr 15
caster sugar 5
golden syrup 30
onion 340g
tin toms 200g
veg ghee 35
salt 2.5
tamarind 5
CTM
oil 1 chef
base 1 chef
mix pwdr mouchak 0.5 tsp
bunjarra 1 tbsp
red masala 1 chef
coconut flour 3 htbsp
base 300ml
cream/evap milk 2 tbsp
water 100ml depending upon base thinness
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have revisited the combined red masala and see recipe pretty much sorted (only the yogurt qty changed). the asterisk refer to the "tgad" ingredients which are cooked all in pan, v.slow simmer for 1 hr, blend then add rest of ingredients ("parker21"). i'm not sure if the mint is an asterisk or not.
red masala (ml)
tandoori paste(pasco) 7.5
tikka paste(pasco) 5
kashmiri masala(pataks) 2.5
yogurt 270 (was 90)
fresh coriander 30
lemon dressing 5
mustard oil 10 *
tandoori masala pwdr 5 *
mix pwdr 2.5 *
mint (colmans NOT Dry) 30 *not sure if asterisk or not
green chilli paste 15 *
g/g paste 5 *
ground almonds 15 *
coconut pwdr 15 *
caster sugar 5 *
golden syrup 30 (increase to 60 next go) *
onion 340g *
tin toms 200g *
veg ghee 35 *
salt 2.5 *
tamarind 5