Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Razor on January 15, 2011, 05:38 PM
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Hi guy's,
Ok, I've made quite a few different base sauces now, and I have also created my own. Some have been okish, some have been good and one or two have been great but the one thing that seems to be missing from them all, is that familiar sweetness that you get from your favorite BIR or TA!
So, my question is this, how long should a base sauce be cooked for?
I guess the ones that I've tried ask for about 1 - 1 1/2 hours cooking but there are many reports that the base should be cooked for longer. I think Jerrym cooks his bases for quite a while and chinois, in his latest video, quickly mentions his base being cooked for about 3 hours!
I'm begging to wonder if a 3 hour cook, will sweeten my base(s) up? I always end up adding a bit of sugar to my final curry, to give it that BIR sweetness but I don't think that it is a BIR method?
So, where am I going wrong? I get the savouriness that I desire, no problem. I also get the flavour that I want, I'm just lacking sweetness. This is my personal missing 5%, once I get that, I've cracked it IMO.
Any thoughts, and how long are you guy's cooking your base gravies for?
Ray :)
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To be honest Razor, I don't think it would matter if you cooked it for 24 hours. If the sweetness isn't in there in the first place, then cooking it longer is not going to produce that...... You're not going to produce something that is not there in the first place....
That will go for all cuisines. The longer you cook it, might develop more body.... but if you want it sweeter, then you will either have to add it at the beginning or add it to the final curry...
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Hi 976,
Thanks for that. Do you get a sweetness with your fav TA/BIR or is it a northern thing?
Do you have a sweetness with your own curries and if so, what do you use to get the sweetness in there, assuming that you don't use sugar?
Many thanks,
Ray :)
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No discernible sweetness in mine, nor would I look for any (though herself might), but if I were to want to create it I might add pineapple juice in small quantities ... Alternatively, maybe consider a different type of onion or a different way of cooking the onion, since I believe that onions can be persuaded to yield sweetness if handled appropriately.
** Phil.
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Hi Ray,
I used to love sweet curries when I was younger. I cut my teeth on Lamb Korma for many years, some even bought me out in a sweat!! lol
But nowadays, I don't like sweet curries. The favourite dish I make is Garlic Chilli Chicken, then a Madras, then a Vindaloo. Some recipes call for sugar, but I really don't like that in my curries anymore.
I also used to like Dhansak, but have now found that the sweet and sour and hot taste is not to my liking.
I always make, Korma, Tikka Masala and Kashmiri masala for the kids, but I prefer the above.
My favourite dish of all time is the Lamb Bhuna, but I have really struggled in producing this dish to the point of giving up. Lamb is just too expensive to experiment with.
I bought a fresh leg of lamb the other day ?22.00. I butterflied it, turned half of it into a slow cook lamb and made a wonderful madras with it, some is still in the fridge. The other half I made a tikka with. I used Blades recipe as I have found that the best recipe for tikka, but instead of using chilli powder, I used a chippotle chilli.
It was dried, so I soaked it for 20 minutes then roughly chopped it and added it to the marinade. (That was Thursday). I got it out the fridge today and cooked it. I can't describe the smoky tikka taste, it was lovely...
We had it tonight with salad and yogurt mint sauce..... :)
If only I could master that Bhuna!!!
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Maybe Phil, but adding pineapple juice would be heading down the dhansak route for me. We definately have a sweetness in our Manchester curries but I wouldn't say that it is a 'sugary' sweetnes.
It's hard for me to describe it really but I know that by adding sugar, it does take me a step closer to what I prefer.
I think jaggery adds a sweetness doesn't it, I don't know for sure as I've never used it but I'm sure that I've read it somewhere. Again though, is it very BIR?
I agree, the way we handle our onions will determine how sweet we can get them, that's why I fry them off in my base for 10 minutes or so, but I still don't get the sweetness that Im looking for! I know just boiling them doesn't give it me, that's for sure.
Ray :)
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I've added Jaggery before and it does give a sweetness and a different sweetness to white refined sugar.
Have you tried soft brown sugar? This is normally un-refined, may be similar to jaggery, but it's worth a go.
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Hi 976,
I cut my teeth on Lamb Korma for many years,
I totally agree, Korma, CTM and Dhansak are far too sweet for me also. There is a definite high amount of sugar in these dishes. I'm not after that level of 'sugary' sweetness but a hint of it, I dunno, it's hard for me to describe it.
The flavour I get form my TA/BIR's just hits the nose before the palate, I can almost smell if a curry is going to be right before I taste it. It's one of the flavours that smells the same as it tastes if that makes any sense (probably doesn't lol)
Like I said, 0.5 tsp in a madras does get me almost there, but just not quite. I've upped the quantity, and it goes too sweet then, that's why I don't believe it comes from sugar.
My only other thought, was to cook out the base for about 3 hours, but it does seem a little excessive!
Ray :)
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I know exactly what you mean Razor. If it smells good as it hits the palate then you know it's going to be a good curry.
When you add the sugar, try cooking the sauce through a bit more before adding the meat. I normally add the sugar when i am cooking the spices, as it caramalises better.
Then, when cooking the sauce through, let it cook a little while longer before adding the meat or chicken.. :)
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Hi 976,
No, I haven't tried brown sugar. I'm keen to try the Jaggery now that you have confirmed that it does offer a sweet note. I would still love to know what our BIR's do though as I can't see them using sugar or jaggery in their base gravies.
When you add the sugar, try cooking the sauce through a bit more before adding the meat. I normally add the sugar when i am cooking the spices, as it caramalises better.
Then, when cooking the sauce through, let it cook a little while longer before adding the meat or chicken.. :)
Yep, that's pretty much my method too. I want to get it in to the base sauce though, so that all my curries, Madras, Bhuna, Dupiaza, and so on, all have that familiar sweetness.
Don't ya just love this BIR thing :-\
Ray :)
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Hi Ray,
I know what you mean about the sweetness. For me it is not a suggary sweetness but a kind of oniony sweetness. When you have a TA and there may be some oil left on the side of the plate or in the TA container, do you find you taste the sweetness in the oil?
If you do the sweetness must be contained in the oil and sugar doesn't dissolve in oil.
I believe it is a flavour from the onions. Probably!
Cheers,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
When you have a TA and there may be some oil left on the side of the plate or in the TA container, do you find you taste the sweetness in the oil?
If you do the sweetness must be contained in the oil and sugar doesn't dissolve in oil.
Yes I do find it in the oil, I would say especially in the oil. And I didn't know that sugar doesn't desolve in all, that's amazing. Not even in hot oil?
Where in the country are you Paul, because I'm wondering if it's a northern thing, this sweeter curry?
Ray :)
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Ray, I'm in Liverpool - 32.xx miles from greatness - as your signature says :)
I noticed the same thing from my decent local TA. Since then I have adopted the spiced oil recipe from Pete (sced) - the one I mentioned some time ago. My finished curries are definitely closer to BIR as a result. A combination of spiced oil in the base including the gritty cooked spice deposits, cooking with the spiced oil and using the onion/pepper paste that is produced when you do the spiced oil recipe.
I wouldn't claim for a minute that all BIRs use this technique/recipe but they somehow manage to punch a deep flavour into the oil. It maybe just that a 60 litre pot of base sauce takes on some different properties when it is kept and topped up over several days. It maybe a side product from them preparing a bunjarra type thing.
I used to sometimes add sugar to my savoury curries and would even use tom ketchup but I don't feel the need any more.
Hope this helps
Cheers,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Ok, so we can certainly say it seems to be a North West thing, if not a totally northern thing!
It maybe just that a 60 litre pot of base sauce takes on some different properties when it is kept and topped up over several days
Totally agree with this statement, and I've mentioned before that we will treat our base very differently from the BIR's/TA's, for the very reasons that you've mentioned.
Would be interested to see if the members agree with the sweetness thing or not.
Ok, a little experiment if you all don't mind; If you wish to reply on this thread, could you start off by; adding sweet or not sweet, followed by whereabouts in the country you are, for example:
Ray; Sweet, Manchester
Paul, Sweet, Liverpool
Phil, Not sweet, Darn Sarf,
You get the idea? It will also give us an indication on how the regional variances differ!
Ray :)
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"Spicedup", on SecretCurryRecipes.Com, wrote
However with your spiced oil to hand and onion paste ready I couldn't resist cooking a Jalfrezi
The result an absolutely top curry, great BIR taste and a lovely sweetness from the onion paste.
So maybe onion paste ?
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I do use onion paste as rule, and it does add a sweetness but my local TA assures me that he doesn't use onion paste. He could be fibbing, but he looked at me like I had two heads when I mentioned it to him.
So Phil, you don't detect a sweetness in the curries down your way then? I think if we can collate some data with reference to sweetness across the regions, it may help our quest with the base development project that we're attempting.
There will be other factors of course like, heat, consistency and so one but one step at a time eh? lol
Ray :)
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Hi Ray,
I may have been wrong when I claimed that suger can't dissolve in oil as I just found this:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2002-03/1015878783.Ch.r.html (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2002-03/1015878783.Ch.r.html)
Confusing eh?
Paul
Edit: After a bit more searching it looks like sugar will not dissolve to any great degree in vegetable oil.
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Hey Paul, the science of cooking, don't ya just love it eh? lol ;D
Well I've just made up a Madras using the Taz base posted by Achmal. Now I made the very same dish last night, and was very happy with the results but tonight's effort is just out of this world?
I did everything the same, the only difference being that the base was a day older, and went into the pan cold!
It was definitely sweeter (still not like my fav BIR/TA) and much more savoury. If you haven't tried the Taz base, I would recommend it, but you will need a good blender to smooth it out but I will report on this base on the correct thread later.
Ray :)
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That's quite a coincidence Ray as I'm about to cook a chicken Korahi using a Taz base cooked with spiced oil and a small amount of coconut block, but otherwise to the letter for the Taz recipe. I'll be adding the onion/pepper paste to this one.
I don't think I'll have blending problems anymore as my wife bought me a 200 quid Waring commercial stick blender that is nearly the size of a road drill.
Enjoy your food
Paul
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Paul,
I don't think I'll have blending problems anymore as my wife bought me a 200 quid Waring commercial stick blender that is nearly the size of a road drill.
That kinda blows my 17 quid Rachel Allen one out of the water then lol.
Enjoy ya grub fella,
Ray :)
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I do use onion paste as rule, and it does add a sweetness but my local TA assures me that he doesn't use onion paste.
OK, so how about including yellow and/or red capsicum in the base ? Both of those will definitely impart a vegetable-derived sweetness ...
** Phil.
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So Phil, you don't detect a sweetness in the curries down your way then? Ray :)
A definite sweetness in (e.g.,) Lamb Dhansak, and perhaps a tinge in a Lamb Biryani, but none that I can think of in a Madras or a Vindaloo.
I'll ask Khanh her opinion when she comes down for dinner.
** Phil.
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Razor,
i use the same standard method to make any base.
stage 1: all in then simmer lid on 2 hrs, blend, add water
stage 2: simmer at least 1 hr (i do 2hrs), add water to thin as required
notes:
a) i used to leave the lid off during stage 2 but now tend to leave it on - makes no difference
b) the stage 1 add water can be added before blending - can sometimes make the blending easier
c) the volume of add water at stage 1 is the amount needed to keep the same volume at the end of stage 2. you can't really go wrong - more water is better just use less then to thin at the end.
link to saffron base:http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2271.msg23751#msg23751 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2271.msg23751#msg23751)
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Hi Jerry,
So all in all, you actually cook your base for around 4 hrs then? Does this long cook produce the 'sweetness' that I'm seeking.
I know it's a hard question for you to answer because you don't know how sweet I like them ;)
On your travels Jerry, would you say that northern curries tend to be sweeter than southern curries, and I don't mean dishes like CTM, Pasanda, Korma and so on but proper curries, Madras, Bhuna, Vindaloo?
Ray :)
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I once got in my local Indian resteraunt kitchen at about 11 am to fit a few shelves and the were simmering the "curry gravy" as they called it at this time and they didnt open until 6pm. I left about 3pm and they were still simmering it. This was about 6 years ago now but the length of cooking the base may give more sweetness?, they cooked me a lovely lunch too, a pity I wasnt watching lol. I would watch like a hawk now but alas the owners of the building sold it so I never had the oppertunity again. This thread has got me wondering if after blitzing my next base I could leave it overnight in a slow cooker to see if this adds anything.
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Hi Will,
I'm beginning to think that a much longer simmer is the way forward for me. I'll give it a go next time and see if there is a difference.
Will, 2 questions mate if I may?
1, Where abouts in the country are you?
2, CTM, Korma's aside, do you get a sweetness in your curries around you way?
Cheers,
Ray :)
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Hi Ray,
I am in Doncaster, as for sweetness in the local resteraunts Madras I can't say I notice it at all, just a savoury moorishness that I so far have not achieved, but I keep trying ;D.
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hi razor to get the sweetness you desire try cooking the onions in the oil with salt simmer with the lid on for about 45 mins this process almost to caramelise the onions, you will then have sweet/savoury moorish onions then add the rest of the ingredients boil until the other veggies are soft then blend and add water to thin out bring to rolling boi for 10 mins then simmer till the oil rises. the sweetness will also be more obvious when the gravy has had time to mature so once cooled place in the fridge and use it the next day or if you cook it early enough that evening.
btw kent, mouchak base, sweet/ savoury notes hard to replicate lol
regards
gary
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Razor, I'm with JerryM on this,I believe a long simmer time breaks the Onions down and Onions do have a certain sweetness to them,I can only refer to my post saying about my Mrs cooking a Beef Stew ( similar Veg to a Curry Base really) I had a bit of a moan that it didn't have much flavour :o and that she should try simmering it for longer.
She has always simmered it for about two hours but this was increased to four hours,the difference in flavour and consistency was amazing :o no more complaints now !
I'm sure this would apply to Curry Base and just think how long the Base is simmering for in a T/A.
I also have been lucky enough to watch my Madras being made at our favourite T/A and no Sugar was used and their Base tastes just like a weak Soup.The only sweetness I have noticed would be in a Korma but you would expect that.
ATB.
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Hi Will,
So your further North than me, and yet you don't detect a sweetness? Interesting. I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a North West thing then?
At the risk of repeating myself, the sweetness that I'm chasing is not CTM, Korma type sweetness, more of a hint really but noticeably missing from my curries.
Hi Parker,
In my own base, I do simmer the onions in the oil, along with the garlic and ginger but only for 10 mins or so. Maybe 45 mins will get me closer? I would be tempted to leave out the salt whilst simmering the onions though, especially if I want to caramelise them. Trying to caramelise onions with salt added is almost impossible in my experience.
Hi Emin-j
Yeah, I'm thinking the longer cook may get me there!
Thanks for the suggestions guy's, I'm thinking a combination of both, longer simmering the onions in oil first, then a longer, slower simmer of the base overall.
Many thanks,
Ray :)
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Hi Will,, Hi Parker, Hi Emin-j
Ray, you missed me out ! What about my suggestion of using yellow and/or red capsicum in the base ?
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
Sorry mate.
Maybe even try a yellow or red capsicum too! ;D
Ray :)
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Hi
sweet-ish, Darn Sarf
By using only Spanish Onions in my tweaked CA base I get an underlying sweetness in the finished base.
Originally I decided to try Spanish onions after seeing deliveries to 3 different BIR's / TA's within a few weeks and saw only massive sacks of Spanish Onions being taken into the establishments. This is however totally inconclusive and based on only a passing observation :) - probably just what was on offer at the time?
Cheers all
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Razor,
you need to try it and see if it works for you. parker21 has added to the picture (star man).
there is a post by Haldi (another star) that gave me the push to try it.
it's hard to take on board but i used palm sugar in desperation a while ago only to realise that sweetness was not what i really needed.
see last sentence in this post - how wrong could i have been - i ditched the palm sugar - just read on a bit http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698)
on the regional thing i don't really gel with it. i do know i like Bangladeshi and this seems the same whereever i've been. there is Pakistani (i think) in some parts and these i don't like (there are some on the mile). i've never been south of the midlands though.
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Im about to try Admins base sause - but use my slow cooker for purpose- I will post results!
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As Per my previous post- I used a slow cooker for 6hrs on low for my last base, and was delighted with results.
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Hi Ray, did you progress on this at all?
Couple of thoughts on this.
I don't think that cooking the onion any longer will make it any sweeter than it would be after cooking it as long as you have. I would suggest that the sweetness comes from other ingredients.
When I did my first base I added a portion of fresh lemon (including pith & rind) to it on the back of comments made by the IG Head Chef. This actually gave a fresh sweetness to the base.
Following my recent ABC tests, I felt underlying the foundation to all the dishes was aromatic and sweet. This in my opinion, is due to the the use of Cassia Bark.
Perhaps an experiment of using these two ingredients in small quantities, will help provide you with the missing sweetness you seek?
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Hi Malc,
I kind of gave up on this after giving the Mick/Taz base a try, which is great.
I do really want to revisit my own base though and see what I can do to get this sweetness that I'm after, in to it.
It's quite difficult to describe what I'm looking for and 'sweet' could be inaccurate?
It is a sweetness but it's definitely not a sugary sweetness. I have stumbled upon it a few times but have no clue as to how I achieved it?
Hey ho, the quest continues :-\
Ray :)
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I too have been thinking about the sweetness thing that razor mentions_ I cant help felling that boiling onions for an hour or so which is what most base sauces call for will result in a slightly bitter base, unless sugar is added as an extra.
Infact the base sauces I've made have always had an underlying 'boiled onion' flavour which isn't particularly nice in my opinion and only gets lost by generous use of spices in finished curry.
I've done a bit of reading up on the chemistry of onions(given that onions are the major constituent in base sauces)and onions have their own sugars- you just have to cook them right to release them.
For my next base sauce I'm going to caramelise the onions first by slow frying for around 40 Min's (probably with garlic too as this is a form of onion) then add caramelised
onions to the remaining base ingredients will then slow cook overnight in crockpot on low.
What I'm hoping to achieve is the removal of the boiled onion flavour and addition of the onions natural sweetness-what are your thoughts on this?
Phil
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For my next base sauce I'm going to caramelise the onions first by slow frying for around 40 Min's (probably with garlic too as this is a form of onion) then add caramelised
onions to the remaining base ingredients will then slow cook overnight in crockpot on low.
What I'm hoping to achieve is the removal of the boiled onion flavour and addition of the onions natural sweetness-what are your thoughts on this?
Go for it ! But when you say "add caramelised onions to the remaining base ingredients", are you talking about adding the onions that you have just caramelised, or bought (pre-caramelised) onions ?
** Phil.
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Have a look at this topic http://index.php?topic=2491.msg21705#msg21705 (http://index.php?topic=2491.msg21705#msg21705), its certainly a good read.
I am sure you will achieve a sweetness in the resulting liquid but I think you will end up with something quite different than a typical base. Caramelising the onion will break it down alot further resulting in less bulk and affect the finish of the base.
If you are going to caramelise the onion this way why not make Bunjara instead and add this when making your final dish? http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3921.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3921.0)
EDIT= sorry had trouble with links
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Phil-I was coing to add the caremelised onions instead of raw onions to the base sauce recipe-I made a dopiaza the other night using caramelised onions and it was superb-I use bunjjarra paste in my curries too- which are in effect spiced caremelised onionns
phil
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I think I would probably steer away from the idea primarily as i'm fairly sure BIR's in general do not caramelise the onions in a base. So the sweetness is being achieved in a different way.
If you do try it though it will be interesting to see what results you get.
:)
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Axe- I hear what you say,I'm just thinking that in a BIR environment, the sauce is always on the stove,and therefore always cooking-the base sauce recipes one here are probably very authentic to a point, but they seem to be cooked fairly quickly,from what I've read then they get portioned up and chucked in the freezer, whereas the BIR version, would be stewing a lot longer and therefore releasing its sugars slowly.
Having said that-what do I know!, I'm a relative newbie and I've never worked In a BIR,and whilst I think the base sauces on here are authentic, I'm guessing that they get cooked a lot longer in a restuarant situation- thus releasing those magical sugars and taking away the boiled onion taste.
Once again- love the feedback and great advice on here!
Phil
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Unfortunately, the BIR keeping it's base on a gentle simmer all night and us having to portion up and freeze, is where we stop progressing and the BIR 'missing element' starts to take effect.
Truthfully, I have dismissed the notion that cooking at home can produce a BIR exact replica in a practical way. Freezing base for instance, will change its make-up slightly, much the same as caramelising the onions.
At this point in time, my way of thinking tells me it's more to do with technique than it is to do with a single element. Of course, all the elements need to work in harmony with each other.
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Hi Phil,
I work in a IR here in Australia one day a week and prepare the gravies on that day that are used for the rest of the week.
We cook our base gravies for approx 2-3 hours. Once they are cooked they go into a fridge and are used as required.
When a dish is being made for a customer, the gravy is taken from the fridge and added to the pot at the appropriate time with the other ingredients.
The onion cooking part of the gravy making process takes a good 2 hours, this you might find interesting, no water is added to the onions while cooking. They slowly cook and caramelize for the two hours along with a couple of whole spices and the smell is absolutely amazing while cooking and nothing like the boiled approach. Oh and another surprise, no such thing as mix powder either!
Again this is a major difference to BIR, the chef said he would never boil onions for a gravy though, so different techniques are out there but these curries are amazing and I can reproduce them at home.
My advice, if you can, get into a restaurant either working part time, or see if you can get part time lessons in a restaurant.
There are a few others on the site who have been able to get into restaurants as well and it is where you pick things up properly, can ask questions etc.
While the above process works for me to be able to recreate the curries at home, it may not work for you in that you are looking to re-create tastes from your local restaurant and their processes/mixes will be different.
Unfortunately we all have preconceived notions of what dishes are supposed to be. I remember there was a lot of surprise when the Ashoka Rogan Josh gravy revealed that it had coconut and I think almonds in it, and how could Rogan Josh have that in it. Here in Aus, most of them do, others don't so to one person what is Rogan Josh is completely different to what others know as Rogan Josh. How about this Rogan Josh descriptionn from one restaurant close to my place...
Rogan Josh - $16.90
Chef's special creation. Chicken is simmered with lentils, with the added flavours of Cardamom and fresh garlic. A spicy exotic curry of the Kashmiri style.
I've never seen/read/experienced lentils in a Rogan Josh, but this place does it and that's their version.
In any case, if you can get into a restaurant to work/take lessons, then at least you can order a dish from that place taste it, get the chef to teach you how to make it and then reproduce at home. It may taste completely different from the dish from your local, but you will have learnt that dish from their perspective.
Cheers,
Mark