Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: prawnsalad on January 07, 2011, 01:11 AM
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First off I am not here to criticize those who eat meat and any that do make an argument for or against on that topic are simply disrespecting this website and what it?s here for. I was a vegetarian for six years but then included fish in my diet for the following 11 which brings me to today.
Point being is that tonight I had yet another takeaway prawn masala after making many personal attempts at masala/vindaloo/phall which is supposedly simpler than other BIR dishes. I have watched videos referenced from here, read almost all posts now and kept a wide open mind on why restaurant flavour is generally better and now I am sure I know.
When you stop eating meat a few things happen, firstly you fart more (yes really,) but aside the various other non-relevant differences you 1. Need considerably less salt and 2. Very much notice the difference between a meat and a non-meat product.
Hence I just had a moment of clarity regarding the base sauce and that is I have been stupidly naive by crediting this hard to master cocktail possible by using vegetables alone.
Any flavour this resonant has to be meat influenced and is most probably some kind of chicken stock as suspected in several posts. Meat eaters won?t see this anywhere near as easily and although many may argue the point you simply won?t understand unless you cease all meat consumption for about 3 months.)
Therefore I will now stop beating myself up over apparent failures as the answer was there all along, the hard-core members here always claim to be so close yet so far, the restaurants never want to give you the "curry gravy" and never show you the basic basics because although they aren't worried about you starting your own curry house they are very worried they will get fined over using meat additives in non-meat dishes.
I am sitting here smelling the after effects of my prawn masala and realising I just didn?t want to admit that its red meat/poultry based to myself because that of course means I won?t be ordering any more :(
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Hi Prawnsalad
Interesting observations.
So, if I understand this correct, you are suggesting that most BIR's, probably use a meat/chicken stock in their base and as a non meat eater, you are identifying this as the 'missing ingredient?
Fair enough, I should imagine that some do but as a meat eater, I also notice the difference in my curries to that of the BIR's.
Admittedly, I haven't tried adding chicken stock to my base but I do intend to one day to see what difference it makes but I know other members have, and yet non seem to have reported back to say that they have found the solution!
To me, this suggests that the missing taste comes form another source and not necessarily stock! That's not to say that this ingredient isn't meat based either, It may well be!
Also, you mention that as a non meat eater, you need far less salt than a meat eater! Does this mean that you find your BIR curries too salty? If not, I wonder if this is the difference that you notice between your own efforts and that of your BIR?
Good post though, should produce some friendly debate!
Ray :)
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Hi Guys
Great discussion points :)
Have myself recently started adding 3 of these stock cubes to a standard size (but slightly modified CA base):
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/e271f845b0b3f26c810ef848044a1185.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#e271f845b0b3f26c810ef848044a1185.jpg)
For me, the results have been superb. This takes my previous very good Madras dishes to a new level of 'moorishness' (is that a real word?) never previously attained.
Will continue to use stock from now on. I am a believer! as also mentioned in this thread where I got some base gravy from my local TA, their sauce had almost certainly been stocked with what I believed to be Chicken (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.0)).
Cheers all
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Hi SP,
So I guess that you agree with Prawnsalad then, you believe that the addition of chicken stock takes you closer to, if not 100% BIR?
Brilliant, that encourages me to give it a go then.
Incidentally, I'm not disagreeing with PS's observations as such, I'm just making the point that, as a meat eater, I also notice the difference between homemade BIR style curries and actual BIR.
I know that Moonster was toying with the idea of using the Knorr stock pots in my own base. I'm not sure that he reported back on that, if he did, I must of missed it but I'd love to know how he got on!
Ray :)
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Great post Prawnsalad, I too have been on and off vegetarian including no fish. For the last four months I returned to non meat eating. It certainly limits the range of dishes but not the ultimate flavours IMHO. I have to say too that all my comments recognise regional variation but I disagree about the addition of meat based stocks. I know many will not be convinced but when I visited The Ashoka I witnessed the entire process of the base sauce being cooked then used in dishes. At no time was any stock or meat added. When folks here still feel they are short on BIR standard I have to wonder if they have used as per the recipes both the Pre cooked G/G Paste and Bunjarra. These two breakthroughs deliver consistently the missing piece for me after over 30 years of searching. I also agree that you don't need salt once you become veggie and your palet adjusts. For what it is worth though sticking in meat pieces to pre cook while the base sauce is being made is something I have done just to save time and space on the cooker but I don't feel it adds anything significant to the flavour. Hope the debate continues once again great post,thanks PP
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Very apposite post, as after boning and jointing the chicken yesterday I put all the bones into a large pot and made chicken stock as I normally would. Today I have to make my base, so I will use the stock as a (possibly significant) component of the 2 3/4 pints of liquid and report back. Incidentally, apropos the use of Knorr chicken stock cubes, I tried these in my pre-KD days (i.e., when my curries were still rubbish), hoping they might be the Holy Grail, but sadly even with KCSC my curries were still rubbish !
** Phil.
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My own take on this is I believe that if BIRs were regularly using chicken stock in their bases we'd have heard about it by now. That's not to say that some don't as I don't think any individual can evidence this one way or the other, so I have to be open to the possibility that some do. But in doing so I would have the view that it represents a variations in ingerdients between establishments.
As Panpot knows I have been a supporter of the "trilogy" of recipes that make up the Ashoka approach ever since he made what I consider to be ground breaking progress on behalf of this forum. Yes being Scottish and familiar with Ashoka style curries has something to do with it, but it also because I have followed his recipes and in my opinion they produce excellent curries, without the help of Knorr.
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Hi All
Good points and posts :)
Would just like to add, that the stock for me at least is no magic BIR bullet on its own. The addition of a stock on its own has no chance of turning a inferior curry into a great one. It is essential that many other key pieces must be present too, depending on the dish these may be things such as spiced oil, onion pastes etc.
Personally totally agree that many BIRS probably do not add stock to their base at all. In fact I do not know for certain that my local TA does, I only guessed. Plus it is absolutely certain that there is considerable variation between curry houses, heck 3 of my favourites produce curries that are all absolutely delicious but also very different characters in the same type of dish from one another.
I think it will be an almost impossible outcome for the forum as a whole to agree on what makes a definitive 'standard curry', the key thing is not to talk yourselves out of even considering things such as the stock - or other suggestions for that matter.
One rainy day, why not give all these things we have dismissed a try! what does a portion of base cost to make? a few pounds? why not one day just make up a batch with some stock? - if you don't like it, what's it cost you? the price of a pint? - just make up another :)
Cheers all ;D
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I also think that some BIRs do use meat stock and some probably don't. Not good news for vegetarians I know! Some BIRs probably also use oil that has been used to pre-cook chicken and then reuse this oil in their base sauces.
I'm prepared to give it a go personally as my curries have already improved over the last few months particularly through the use of spiced oil and onion paste.
I also really must try the Ashoka combination as well. It is just the thought of spending at least 45 mins or an hour getting those onions nicely browned that has put me off so far.
Cheers,
Paul
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Paul, the trick with The Ashoka posts is to give up a Saturday afternoon stick on some good music or listen to the football (as I do) then make batches of the trilogy and freeze them in portion sizes. I use freezer bags and have used old ice cube trays for the G/G Paste in the past. It is well worth it. I am moving house next week and have deliberately used up all my stock so will be doing a fresh batch fairly soon once settled. I get weeks out of one glorious Saturday afternoon with the smell everywhere. PP
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I am moving house next week ...
Hope the house move runs smoothly for you Panpot
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Thanks Stephen
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Just had a meeting at which a BIR owner was present. He confirmed that at no time would they consider using meat stock or meat products in thebaee which he called the "Foundation Sauce." Also he said that Madras in his menu has no Lemon Juice but differs from plain curry with the addition of fresh Chili eithervred or green depending on heat preference. Also they add tomato purri in the Foundation Sauce. They had a go with adding potatoes but found it made the sauce blander so pulled it. They use a G/G Paste they call Turka which I am hoping to get the recipe of. PP
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Just had a meeting at which a BIR owner was present. He confirmed that at no time would they consider using meat stock or meat products in thebaee which he called the "Foundation Sauce." Also he said that Madras in his menu has no Lemon Juice but differs from plain curry with the addition of fresh Chili eithervred or green depending on heat preference. Also they add tomato purri in the Foundation Sauce. They had a go with adding potatoes but found it made the sauce blander so pulled it. They use a G/G Paste they call Turka which I am hoping to get the recipe of. PP
Great stuff, PP : you obviously have well-placed connections ! Is there any possibility, do you think, that your chef's "Turka" is a pronunciation variant of "Tarka", as mentioned here (http://ask.metafilter.com/92381/Come-on-Indian-MeFites-spill-the-lentils-divulge-your-most-tasty-family-recipes) ?
** Phil.
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Phil, Probably though didn'l get the recipe though did get a little carton of it to take home and analyse. The chef blast froze it and I popped it in the freezer though have had no time to have a closer look as I have had to leave and go back on th road. It will ne a few weeks before I get back to my flat. PP