Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on December 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
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70s vindaloo is for me quite different to the vindaloo of today which now seems to be just a hotter version of madras.
in the new year i'd like to have a crack at mastering this dish.
would appreciate thoughts. i particularly feel i don't know enough about how to approach the mix powder or "spicing".
My TA menu lists the dish, "involving greater use of spices, garlic, ginger and black pepper to produce a hot taste".
i must admit i have never ordered the dish from the TA as for several years including visits to my beloved Dilshad have always disappointed. obviously as a starting point i'm going to have to order this TA and see if i can get the chef chatting.
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Definition of Vindaloo.....
http://www.indiacurry.com/faqterms/whatvindaloo.htm (http://www.indiacurry.com/faqterms/whatvindaloo.htm)
Various Vindaloo links.....
http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.Indiacurry.com&q=+vindaloo&sitesearch=www.Indiacurry.com&sa=Google+Search&client=pub-2030176262852400&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%230000FF%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FF9900%3BVLC%3A0000FF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFEC%3BLBGC%3AFFFFEC%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A880000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en (http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.Indiacurry.com&q=+vindaloo&sitesearch=www.Indiacurry.com&sa=Google+Search&client=pub-2030176262852400&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%230000FF%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FF9900%3BVLC%3A0000FF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFEC%3BLBGC%3AFFFFEC%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A880000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en)
Very good curry resource site....
http://www.indiacurry.com/ (http://www.indiacurry.com/)
Hope these help. There's a good amount of info here for how vindaloo has altered over the years, and recipes to go along with the progress. Its one of my favourite curry sites and vary usefull.
I have used the recipes off the site before, one of my favourites is a recipe for Biryani and is very good.
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peterandjen,
many thanks - will have a read up over the hols.
it's this sort of blinkers off help i'm in need of. i see this dish as either very simple or very difficult to master.
there are very few BIR dishes that really perplex me on how they are made but this is one of them for sure.
it has such a depth and width of flavour that you feel every spice that exists must be used in it.
i've just picked up on Masala Marks AIR version and that looks interesting too.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4950.msg47456#msg47456 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4950.msg47456#msg47456)
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Jerry
I seem to remember that Bruce Edwards first Curry House Cookery article mentioned that he got some sauce analysed by a chemist and that there was tarragon in it!
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70s Vindaloo is for me quite different to the Vindaloo of today which now seems to be just a hotter version of madras.
As you know Jerry we're on the same wavelength when it comes to Vindaloo. It never was just a hotter madras.
You really, if you haven't already, have to try making one with Bassar masala.
Now you can't use just any old bassar for this, it has to be one with mustard oil (NOT mustard powder) in it. You'll know that it has for two reasons. First it'll say so on the packet ;D and second, it feels greasy to the touch.
Believe me Bassar powder mixes are not all the same, any more than a typical curry powder is, and the one with mustard oil just seems to work in a Vindaloo. In fact technically if it doesn't contain mustard oil it really isn't a Bassar masala.
These are my absolutes when I think of a vindaloo (BIR style)
Bassar masala
asafoetida
lots of GG paste
lots of black pepper
at least four teaspoons of ordinary chilli, but preferably extra hot chilli powder
absolutely no extra tomato at the curry cooking stage
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Hi SS,
I've got some bassar masala that seems to fit your description i.e. mustard oil in it, red in colour and pretty hot to the taste.
How much would you recommend putting in a Vindaloo style dish please?
To date I've never used the stuff.
I totally agree that an old style vindaloo is not just a hotter madras and I never used to see potato in the ones I was eating 25 years ago.
Paul
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You really, if you haven't already, have to try making one with Bassar masala.
Now you can't use just any old bassar for this, it has to be one with mustard oil (NOT mustard powder) in it. You'll know that it has for two reasons. First it'll say so on the packet ;D and second, it feels greasy to the touch.
Believe me Bassar powder mixes are not all the same, any more than a typical curry powder is, and the one with mustard oil just seems to work in a Vindaloo. In fact technically if it doesn't contain mustard oil it really isn't a Bassar masala.
"Well I'll go to foot o' our stairs !" Thank you, Santa : I never knew that there were multiple Bassar curry masalas. I have just rushed off to the bulk spice cupboard to check, and mine is "Al Noor" : listed ingredients -- chilli powder, coriander powder, turmeric powder, mustard oil, fenugreek leaves, cumin powder, bay leaves, mustard seeds, cardamom powder, cinnamon powder, black pepper powder, cloves, fenugreek powder, nutmeg powder. I wouldn't have described it as "greasy to the touch", but I must confess I normally handle it with a teaspoon, not with bare hands !
** Phil.
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SS - I've seen basaar masala in my indian grocery. Not sure if its the oil-laden type, but they have so many varieties of masalas, I'm sure I will find.
Questions: how much basaar do you use? Does this replace the usual spice mix, or as well as? Any how much asafoetida and when?
Cheers,
josh
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Stephen,
i'll park the tarragon for the moment. not for being batty but i want to get to ball park 1st. there could well be something like a herb in the dish.
interesting thought - many thanks.
Secret Santa,
the variety of bassar ie mustard oil version is something i was not aware of. i have, "King of Spice" - it just lists mustard as ingredient. i can't work out if it is mustard oil as it lists edible oil too and which is confusing as the powder does feel greasy to the touch and looks sort of lumpy/sticky together. ps the King of Spice is the extra hot version although it's not really hot (marketing ploy).
i will look out for the mustard oil bassar version but i doubt it can be bought inside the EU.
i have not tried bassar in vindaloo. in fact upto trying it in Phil's Bombay i had only really used it in the 976bar Kashmiri dish.
i too do think it is the mix powder of the past - or if not remarkably close.
the list of must haves is much appreciated. the asofotida is out for me having tried it once before. i like the idea of lots of g/g and black pepper. i think the chilli powder may not be used - i'm leaning towards ashoka green chilli paste.
the missing part of the recipe for me is - i think there must be a sauce which is where the magic is done in terms of getting that depth of flavour. i'm going to start with the ashoka south Indian garlic sauce as a starting point. call it a green chilli sauce.
the only real question i have is whether there is the dreaded vinegar in the dish. going on nothing more than recollection i think not. if it is then it's a very small player.
i'm going to get vindaloo from my local TA in the hope of getting some further clues. not purchased a vindaloo for a very long time. i will need to ask before purchase how it differs from a madras (of course).
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3908.msg35388;topicseen#msg35388
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3908.msg35388;topicseen#msg35388)
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was giving some thought on this vindaloo recipe - re the idea of vindaloo paste. got onto to thinking about how i made curry before KD1.
i had a "pass me down" recipe which i think was essentially the traditional method of making curry in a pot. for info: caramelise 1 lb chopped onion in butter, add meat, add 1 tsp curry powder, add 1 off tin toms, add water, cook in oven for 2 hrs.
what i do remember is buying a jar of curry paste - this improved the dish no end.
what i'm getting at is that adding some form of caramelised paste is something that did exist at the time and is not a recent BIR invention.
(re panpot's post, http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5167.msg50435#msg50435 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5167.msg50435#msg50435))
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i will look out for the mustard oil bassar version but i doubt it can be bought inside the EU.
Royal Tunbridge Wells was in the EU last time I checked, Jerry :) And that is where my "Al Noor" BCM came from, complete with mustard oil.
** Phil.
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i had a "pass me down" recipe which i think was essentially the traditional method of making curry in a pot. for info: caramelise 1 lb chopped onion in butter, add meat, add 1 tsp curry powder, add 1 off tin toms, add water, cook in oven for 2 hrs.
what i do remember is buying a jar of curry paste - this improved the dish no end.
Yes, my recollections are much the same as yours. But of course it never tasted anything like how I hoped (and probably nothing like how you hoped, either). The paste was a definite improvement, and for years I swore by Bolst's (I still have some of their green-topped jars), but it was only with Kris Dhillon's help that I went from "edible but nothing like the real thing" to "Ye Gods : I think I've cracked it" !
** Phil.
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had to do some market research in preparation - had chicken vindaloo from my fav TA. i also got portion of madras (which i buy a lot of) to make possible a side by side comparison. upto this point i'd thought the madras was very good and unlikely to be beaten (except from the occasional dish on chefs specials listing).
the vindaloo was for me a "hot" madras. i need to make CA's vindaloo again as this i rate highly in order to comapare side by side the 2 off dishes.
the TA vindaloo was exceptionally good. that something that brings this dish to life was there for sure. really loved it and future TA orders will have to change to include this dish as a regular.
i asked the chef about vinegar - "we have never used vinegar in vindaloo". i got the impression that the "we" was in fact the Bangladeshi BIR trade.
BIR madras LHS - BIR Chicken Vindaloo RHS
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1ac1296624818bbf3f822f4303ef930e.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#1ac1296624818bbf3f822f4303ef930e.jpg)
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Hi Jerry
Those pictures have got me thinking about the sauce again.
Look at it, it is so think, it has body and a texture to it by the looks of things. The Vindaloo on the right shows what appears to be the sauce being able to hold itself up in ridges and indentations with its own consistency. What do you think gives it that texture? is it a massively reduced sauce with some onion paste added?
Watch Dip's videos for example and his finished dishes are far 'runnier' than that, although he is a serious quick get it in the pan, get it out the door kind of chef.
Cheers
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BIR madras LHS - BIR Chicken Vindaloo RHS
Jerry, do these images accurately portray the colour ? They look remarkably dark, to my eye, so I asked Picasa to bring them up to the sort of colour I would expect (see below) : which is more accurate as far as colour goes, to your eye ?
** Phil.
P.S. In my post above about pre-KD1 recipes and methods, I said "for years I swore by Bolst's"; in fact, I meant Fern's (http://www.fernspickles.com/products.htm).
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(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/58d026abe9139c497a60860571bca979.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#58d026abe9139c497a60860571bca979.jpg)
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I think we can say a few things about curries from Ta's from our experiances so far.
1) They'll use only one type of basic stock/sauce to create most dishes.
2) The dishes only become different from one another during the stir-fry stage.
From here we can add more...
If the finished dish needs to be thick, reduce the sauce down during the stir-fry.
If it needs to be thinner, add more sauce, or don't reduce it for so long.
Depth of flavour, if we reduce a ladle of sauce right down, then it will have more flavour, if it needs thinning add more sauce. It will still keep the added depth of flavour because of the first reduction.
Personally i think your biggest job Jerry will be in creating or finding the correct Vindaloo paste for the stir-fry stage.
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many thanks all.
all dishes from this BIR "hold themselves up in ridges". i can achieve exactly the same consistency at home - this is done by using much more onion in the base. i currently aim for around 100g onion per portion (can explain more if needed - i work on a bulk veg of 54% of the finished base volume by weight).
on the colour have attached a bigger file (original is 1.3MB). it was difficult to capture the pic well as using the flash caused problems on the aluminium container. the colour is a tad too dark - it was dark red. the top portion of the vindaloo in the picasa interpretation is pretty much spot on. the vindaloo was darker than the madras.
interesting on the thought of finding the vindaloo paste. i was in my local Asian store and talked with the owner about trying to make vindaloo - i asked initially if he had "vindaloo paste". his reply was yes and told me where to find it. could i find not a chance. it ended up that it was Pataks. had a look at the ingredients and nothing of a break through there. i told the owner this and got chatting about vindaloo. in short his advice was to make like a madras but to add green chilli. no paste needed. clearly the owner is not a BIR chef but he sells to the BIR trade and is Asian. i feel very comfortable with all his previous advice sufficient that as a starting point i'll follow his suggestion and see what happens.
on the herbs. i asked the owner. he sells a lot of mint to the trade (bottled, dry and fresh). the no 2 seller is dry thyme. the no 3 is dry oregano (quite a suprise). there is no tarragon at all (even for Thai will he sells to). fresh coriander is considered a staple.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/3cc64c924284231f397d9879ce1633d9.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#3cc64c924284231f397d9879ce1633d9.jpg)
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i've had a look through the existing vindaloo recipes (CA's, parker21, chilliprawn, dipuraja) to give indication of starting recipe which i'll post once finalised.
have re attached pic of last BIR TA vindaloo which seems to have been lost from the post. (now realised there is a temp bandwidth problem).
intend another TA this week to get thoughts clearer. will also aim for better pic in terms of colour.
only downside i've realised is that unlike other trials on mains when i might make 4 or even 5 dishes on a night my body may well limit consumption of this hot dish to 1 off per night.
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had vindaloo TA this week - a bit of a shocker but helpful nevertheless.
the BIR vindaloo was rubbish say a 6 - just a hot madras. i can't understand given how good the last TA from the same place was. the no1 chef was in and my wife's garlic chicken was a 10 as usual. i can only put it down to cooked by no2 chef - quite amazing the difference if this is the case. i'll pry for an answer on next visit - obviously a touchy subject. 1 st time any dish from this TA has disappointed.
anyhow i now know 100% that a hot madras version of vindaloo is not what i'm after - i'd rather stick to other dishes.
have some pics of the BIR dish to post when site allows.
hoping to have a few goes this week at making "green" chilli sauce as prep for the main dish recipe.
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...snip...
anyhow i now know 100% that a hot madras version of vindaloo is not what i'm after - i'd rather stick to other dishes.
Hi Jerry
In total agreement with you. Have been to plenty of places where the Vindaloo 'seems' to be, just a spiced up Madras. The others that really shine for me seem to do something extra - what this is, I'm not sure :(
Did you make any progress with these suggestions? http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5376.msg53110#msg53110 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5376.msg53110#msg53110) - plan to give this a go with the Taz base method myself.
Cheers all
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solarsplace,
yes - i've added in the josh and chewytikka suggestions: more chilli powder, green chilli, less puree (not convinced), add whole cumin, black pepper.
as for rogan josh and dopiaza - dishes i live very much but i can't cook either so parked for the mo.
i now think the answer is in a green chilli paste and going to work on this for a while 1st. i know ashoka make just plain green chilli paste but if a few additions make it a sticking plaster for me then why not.
ps not tried the Taz base - i need oil at dish frying and too much oil in total is no good on taste.
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Just as a point of interest, tradinational vindaloo was never made with potatoes, So don't know how potatoes ever got in their in the first place
see link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo)
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Just as a point of interest, tradinational vindaloo was never made with potatoes, So don't know how potatoes ever got in their in the first place
see link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo)
I was told by a chef that it was for no reason other to enable a waiter to tell the difference between a Madras and a Vindaloo.
Regards,
Mick
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I was told by a chef that it was for no reason other to enable a waiter to tell the difference between a Madras and a Vindaloo.
Nice theory, but I can't help feeling that the "aloo" element of "Vindaloo" is also involved, even though we all know that "Vindaloo" <= "Vinh d'alho" ("wine of garlic") and that the "aloo" (= "potato") element is pure coincidence ...
The following quotation provides some interesting insights, particularly on the benefits of adding potato to absorb the extra vinegary taste :
[quote author=http://bridgetkumar.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/vindaloo-
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I agree with Phil.
I have a 70yr old curry book with a vindaloo recipe in it-It claims Vindaloo(also called Bindaloo)was made by Portuguese settlers in Goa.
It calls for steeping the meat(usually pork, but beef and duck can be used)in vinegar solution overnight-apparently it wont go off and can be kept in the solution for up to 3 days.
I suppose this was a good way of keeping meat edible given the heat and lack of refrigeration.
ill post the recipe if anyone is interested.
Phil (The other Phil)
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I was told by a chef that it was for no reason other to enable a waiter to tell the difference between a Madras and a Vindaloo.
Nice theory, but I can't help feeling that the "aloo" element of "Vindaloo" is also involved, even though we all know that "Vindaloo" <= "Vinh d'alho" ("wine of garlic") and that the "aloo" (= "potato") element is pure coincidence ...
The following quotation provides some interesting insights, particularly on the benefits of adding potato to absorb the extra vinegary taste :
[quote author=http://bridgetkumar.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/vindaloo-
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Not arguing with you, Mick, just floating alternative possibilities :)
** Phil.
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Not arguing with you, Mick, just floating alternative possibilities :)
** Phil.
No worries Phil, I didn't take it as such.
Its just that some chefs are none too complimentary about some of the waiting staff.
Regards,
Mick
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No worries Phil, I didn't take it as such.
Its just that some chefs are none too complimentary about some of the waiting staff.
Ah. So is it possible (do you think) that there is an element of irony in their explanation ? (i.e., this isn't really how it came about, which no-one now remembers, but we pretend that it is because it illustrates just how thick some of our waiters are) ?
** Phil.
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pics of last weeks BIR dishes
my camera does not work well at night with the flash so pics don't look as good as real. i kept flash on for both pics so you get a proper comparison - in terms of colour they looked pretty much identical except for the affect of the chicken in the vindaloo (which was not visible when viewed by eye).
i have my hot green chillies and looking forward to making start soon.
madras curry sauce
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/0508fda86aecfd5e39f20662c203725f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#0508fda86aecfd5e39f20662c203725f.jpg)
chicken vindaloo
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/117da556997954bbb55e32f53517cdbb.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#117da556997954bbb55e32f53517cdbb.jpg)
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Hi Jerry,
pics of last weeks BIR dishes
Just to confirm, are these two dishes bought BIR's or are they your own?
Looking at you Vindaloo, in the top right hand corner of the foil, you can see a paste around the edge. This is what I see all the time on my TA containers but I don't get it with my own curries even when I let them stand in a TA foil? Wonder what it is or what creates it.?
Ray :)
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Razor,
they are both from my local TA ie bought.
the paste for me is just sauce that's slopped up the side during the journey home. i think it's just condensed a little more due to the hotness of the foil.
it tastes no difference to the main sauce - i always clean the foil out with my finger after giving it my best with naan. i know - guilty pleasure as charged.
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solarsplace, et al,
these were the questions initially on my mind to try and "refine" vindaloo recipe:
1) spice mix v bassar
2) plain chilli powder v kashmiri
3) adding fresh coriander start and end
4) adding Secret Santa chilli sauce
5) adding Panpot garlic sauce or derivative
since the latest TA vindaloo i've cleared my mind that a "hot madras is not what i'm after hence item 4 can go.
any other thoughts appreciated
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for info/thoughts this is the rev1 vindaloo recipe i intend to try first:
it's collated from all the other various vindaloo recipes hopefully taking the best bits. i've also had in mind josh and chewytikka thoughts.
veg oil 4 tbsp
g/g paste 2 tsp
tom puree 1 tsp
mix powder 1 tsp
chilli powder 2 tsp
black pepper 0.5 tsp
salt 0.25 tsp
bunjarra 2 tbsp
lemon dressing 0.5 tsp
base 300ml
green chilli paste (5 in last post) 4 tbsp
fresh coriander 1 tsp
will post the green chilli paste rev 1 version in the morning - tastes brill - had it in fridge 2 days and not much left.
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ill post the recipe if anyone is interested.
Phil (The other Phil)
[/quote]
I'd be very interested in seeing that recipe Phil.
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green chilli sauce rev 1 1st go. ps it needs the amount of green chilli increasing but i want to get the general taste good before upping the heat.
nb amounts are in units so that i can make small amounts (~60ml total) for tasting
garlic 4 units
ginger 4
green chilli 10
tom puree 10
lemon dressing 4
tamerind 2
sugar 4
salt 1
water 75
microwave bake 5 mins then blend.
targeting batch of base next week.
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have base and green chilli sauce ready to go.
was going to add pic and will do when server is up.
aiming to cook monday night.
ps in the green chilli sauce have increased green chilli to 15 units and water to 135. tastes real good.
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have cooked this dish twice. will post pics when server up.
1st night was vindaloo and naan. second night dipuraja biryani and vindaloo curry sauce. what a tea the biryani was - loved it
the only change on the 2nd go was to add 2 tsp of bought chilli sauce.
i like the recipe pretty much as it is and see only gradual evolution. mornings were not a problem.
going fwd:
1) need to find out what produces lip burn as i can't seem to get it - i'm not sure if i need some birds eye chilli in it. the small thin type in asian stores gives good taste but seems a tad low on heat.
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pic of 1st go (Nb round patch is where i had a taste):
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/b849118528173b924aee4bd4738da381.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#b849118528173b924aee4bd4738da381.jpg)
pic of 2nd go:
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/0a4e8d600d93f1c4aae473052fcf7c4b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#0a4e8d600d93f1c4aae473052fcf7c4b.jpg)
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Hi Guys & Gals
I have perfected IMHO what constitutes a classic Vindaloo recipe over the past year, including the best suited choice of base from our site also.
It will work perfectly with your own choice of precooked chicken / lamb tikka or regular precooked chicken or meat or lamb from any of the well tried and proven precooked recipes on this site
Ive just undergone extensive surgery recently so typing a major recipe with cooking instructions is a challenge at the mo but I will try to do so over the coming week as Im getting stronger daily.
It is a killer recipe IMO, I no longer buy BIR Vindaloo takeaway as a result.
So please bear with me as it will be worth the wait, again in my opinion and Im F**** hard to please believe me.
It has full red oil separation etc on the plate and doesnt look like or taste like just an upchillied Madras.
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artistpaul,
real excited and very much looking fwd to giving it a go when you are ready.
ps i'm pretty happy with where i've got to but any additional experience is always appreciated. best wishes.
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been having a mooch around the site and DD's is a dish that i need to make next.
has anyone else tried it (DD is it still your preferred).
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3793.0
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3793.0)