Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on November 20, 2010, 10:43 AM
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my recent posts on "Best of BIR" and "Bhuna and Vindaloo - Why do these not live up to expectation" have not produced what i'd hoped for but they have signposted my next journey so to speak.
i'd like to be able to crack these 70 curries. this i see as not an easy task - at the moment for recipe refinement i can do side by side from my local TA but on this i will need to rely on memory and as we know that's not good.
given the interest in madras then please put down thoughts on what makes a decent BIR madras for you.
i'd particularly appreciate thoughts based on direct experience of the 70's curry and even how we can retrace history. as an example i can remember on Wolverhampton market how there were no plastic bags of spice - they were all in tins. if you wanted a curry powder it would be made to order.
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Hi Jerry,
Unfortunately, I never ate Madras in the 70's or 80's and only had them from time to time during the 90's and 00's, my fave being Jal Frezi. However, I have been ordering Madras and Madras only from my local TA over the last 12 months.
It is the best Madras that I have tasted which by my own addmission, are very few.
The main thing for me is the savouriness. Now, the Madras from my local has no bits in it at all, no fresh chilli, no chopped onion, no coriander, no methi it is just a smooth, slightly oily sauce. I would describe it as being orangy/red in colour,with a slight sweetness to it. Not to everyones liking, I know but there is a definite "hint" of lemon in there.
My own Madras is quite close but I do add fresh chillies, coriander, and dried methi, so I guess it's not typical of my local's Madras.
Ray :)
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given the interest in madras then please put down thoughts on what makes a decent BIR madras for you.
i'd particularly appreciate thoughts based on direct experience of the 70's curry and even how we can retrace history. as an example i can remember on Wolverhampton market how there were no plastic bags of spice - they were all in tins. if you wanted a curry powder it would be made to order.
Well, I'm certainly old enough to remember curries in the 70's and even in the 60's, but I would be very hard pressed to try to answer your main question "what makes a decent BIR madras for you ?". The simple answer is, "I don't know" : it just tastes "right", with no one element dominating the others (this is even more the case when you move up the heat scale to vindaloo and Bangalore phal : it is vital in the last two that the chilli content does not become the only thing that one can taste). What I do remember from the 60's and 70's is how much variation there was from BIR to BIR : this variation seems to have been almost completely ironed out, and although there are still (of course) good BIR, bad BIR, and simply average BIR, I do not think one still finds the same range of flavours for the same dish as one once did.
Oddly I have no recollection of curry powder ever being made to order, and I am not now speaking simply as a Southerner : I spent almost three years in Smethwick and the nearby Black Country, and made considerable use of the Indian shops as, at that time, they were the only ones to open on a Sunday ! I do remember trying to buy some lentils to make a dhansak, somewhere along the Hagley Road, and failing completely to explain what I wanted until I suddenly remembered the magic word "dhal". All of a sudden I was surrounded by lentils, of every possible shape, size and colour, and a delighted shop owner who clearly appreciated the fact that at least some English people were willing to try to communicate in a language other than their own !
** Phil.
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JerryM ,
I wasn't lucky enough to have been eating Indian in the 60's - 70's as this was my Chinese years :) and only moved up to Indian in the early 80's but for me the obvious thing with a Madras is the heat ;D I don't seem to get that Curry hit if I don't have heat in a Curry , some times if I am ' in the mood ' I'll have a Vindaloo because I need that ' hit :)) Plus the smooth sauce and slightly sweet / sour taste.
As regarding the Currie's of the 60's/70's being apparently much more flavoursome I am wondering if the T/A used to fry their Onions and Spices rather than the boil method they use nowadays and perhaps this is why Razors Base is so popular plus this is the method used in my ' Tasty Curry Recipe ' post and that is a real winner.
ATB.
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The main thing for me is the savouriness. Now, the Madras from my local has no bits in it at all, no fresh chilli, no chopped onion, no coriander, no methi it is just a smooth, slightly oily sauce. I would describe it as being orangy/red in colour,with a slight sweetness to it.
I'd agree completely with this analysis but then you had to go and add:
Not to everyones liking, I know but there is a definite "hint" of lemon in there
D'oh and Grrrrr! >:( ;D
But you did also say:
I never ate Madras in the 70's or 80's and only had them from time to time during the 90's and 00's
Which explains it all for me.
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SS,
you appear to have a good awareness of what you are looking for in a BIR dish.
I have not been a member on this board for a long time but find you very interesting in the way that you very rarely share if ever your own experiances.
Cryptic springs too mind!!!!
could you please share your knolwedge of your curry experiance from the 70's/80's for us all to have a better understanding of what we may be missing from that era.
good initial thread by the way :)
regards
Alan ;D
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SS,
Quote
Not to everyones liking, I know but there is a definite "hint" of lemon in there
D'oh and Grrrrr!
Lol ;D I could be way off the mark, but there is a definate hint of something citrus beit lemon or lime?
smooth sauce and slightly sweet / sour taste.
Yeah, I think that, that describes it for me too, slightly sweet and sour.
Ray :)
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Secret Santa,
going to need your thoughts on this one if we are going to crack it.
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thanks all for some interesting starting points.
Razor is surprisingly close for me. nice to know Phil has sampled the hagley road and of coarse smethwick is the center of entertainment for me. shame on you emin-j for being in the wilderness in those crucial years.
i'll try and sum up all the thoughts when it feels that we've caught all we need.
for me madras was the dish i started out on (more aspired too down to the heat). we always had biryani but with madras curry sauce.
as Phil points out it's quite difficult to put in words what makes a decent madras.
for me the 70's madras:
1) most striking is the colour - red
2) there is oil on the surface but not too much
3) a very smooth curry with no bits
4) a hot dish - far hotter than now (but no lip burn suggesting no green chilli)
5) that savouriness
6) in balance will no real spice standing out
7) a hint of green cardamom
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nice to know Phil has sampled the hagley road and of coarse smethwick is the center of entertainment for me.
for me the 70's madras:
1) most striking is the colour - red
2) there is oil on the surface but not too much
3) a very smooth curry with no bits
4) a hot dish - far hotter than now (but no lip burn suggesting no green chilli)
5) that savouriness
6) in balance will no real spice standing out
7) a hint of green cardamom
I can go along with most of that, except for the "far hotter than now"; a Madras today is (IMHO) simply not a fixed concept -- it can vary even within the same restaurant depending on the duty chef. And of course, when we first ate curries (60's, 70's, whenever : earlier, anyone ?) even the mildest tasted unbelievably hot. Only after we had trained our bodies to accommodate them did a Madras become comfortable, a Vindaloo tolerable, and a Bangalore Phal something to regret for at least three days afterwards ... !). So I really don't think they were any hotter than they are now (or should I say, hotter than are now served in some BIRs on some days).
And just by way of a digression, a true story about my first visit to Smethwick and the Hagley Road. I had a blind date with a girl who was teaching near Smethwick, and the friend who arranged our date (through his girlfriend, who originated near my girlfriend-to-be) was to drive me from London to Smethick. Satnav, of course, did not exist. And we joked as we drove there that if we needed to ask for directions, we would need to get a translator. So we arrived in Birmingham, and tried to find the Hagley Road. No success. So I wound down the window and asked "Excuse me, can you tell me where the Hagley Road is, please ?". "Do what, maite ?", was the distinctly Brummy answer. "Can you telw me where the 'agley Road is ?", I asked again, this time trying to emulate the local accent to the best of my ability. "Sure, it's roight there at the corner" said our friendly informant, and it was. (This story is completely true, but works much better when spoken than when written !)
** Phil.
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Phil,
sold on the heat, Only after we had trained our bodies to accommodate them did a Madras become comfortable
- sorts it for me.
glad you enjoyed your 1st trip and hope all turned out. even i can't understand quite a bit when i go home these days. quite a posh spot the agley road too.
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whilst we are considering the madras part of the 70's curry (and hopefully other dishes in time) it's sort of no good without a base to make it all work.
i'm thinking of starting with the CR02 base ingredients http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4065.msg36792#msg36792 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4065.msg36792#msg36792)
would appreciate thoughts on a similar basis on what makes a decent base. this is an area i feel i know a bit about but all thoughts on what could of existed at the time of the 70's would help refine ideas.
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Jerry,
personally i would look no further than razors base.
Interestingly i have just been reading your posts on quantitys of oil at the cooking stage and the impact it has on the taste to the finished dish.
I believe that razor has developed a base which has the perfect quantity of oil to compliment a dish of this type.
the analogy that members use that perfecting BIR cooking is like a jigsaw is spot on, i believe that the experiance, feedback and input from other board members has helped me achieve at home what i percieve as a BIR indian curry and most importantly for me i am beginning to understand why it has suddenly all come together if that makes any sense. ;D
I cant thank the board contributers enough for there advice and feedback and that for me is what makes this excellent curry site the best.
Thanks
Alan ;D
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moonster,
appreciate the idea of using razors base - i have previously made razor's posted Kushi base which is very good and in no doubt on the merits of a "razor" base.
for this madras (and with time bhuna and vindaloo) i need to step back in time so to speak with the base as well as the dish.
the trouble is for me is that although i know exactly the dishes i'm after at the time ie 70's i had very little interest in cooking at the time - i never went near what i would call an Asian shop that i know today.
what i'm getting at is i need to strip out the base what ingredients were not readily available at that time. for example peppers.
what i'm thinking of doing is sort of combining KD1 base with the CR02 base - i know both really well having made them loads.
what i need help on from the members with good memory (and i may be asking too much ) is what veg was readily available in the 70's for curry ie fresh coriander as an example. i rate this as a must in base today but i think it may not have been used then. there was certainly no garish like there is today.
on the oil there is differing opinions. at one end is i think the Taz method which uses a lot of oil in the base. i keep it fairly low (~7% as a proportion of the original onion volume or 100ml in 800g onion, nb i actually add more oil and reclaim it just before blending). i need to keep the oil low in the base to enable as much oil to be used at frying stage as this makes the frying a lot easier. too much oil in total for me is no good - i don't like curry swimming in oil.
as you say looking at this BIR curry cooking as a jigsaw is without doubt the way to succeed. well pleased it's coming together. don't be put off when you get the inevitable setback too - i had quite a few but they are sometimes needed in order to progress.
best wishes,
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what i need help on from the members with good memory (and i may be asking too much ) is what veg was readily available in the 70's for curry ie fresh coriander as an example. i rate this as a must in base today but i think it may not have been used then. there was certainly no garish like there is today.
I still have some recipe books (Indian, British published) dating back to then, so I may be able to fill in some gaps. Certainly bhindi were ubiquitous, but I never acquired a taste for them !
** Phil.
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Phil,
please do. I still have some recipe books (Indian, British published) dating back to then, so I may be able to fill in some gaps
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1st draft on the base for a sanity check by those with good memory.
aiming for 2.5L - 7 off portions:
veg oil 525ml (425ml reclaim before blending)
marg 10ml
onion 800g
garlic 30g
ginger 15g
tom puree 45ml
salt 17.5ml
paprika 15ml
turmeric 15ml
chilli pwdr 2.5ml (or 5ml if not the very hot stuff)
tin toms 400g
initial water 300ml
added water 600ml (after blending)
thinning water 600ml (at end)
spice ball:
cardamom 4 off (lightly crushed)
asian bay 4 off
anis 1 off
method: all in 2hrs simmer, reclaim oil, added water, blend, 2 hrs simmer, remove spice ball, add back cardamom, add thinning water
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Hi
JM, someone I know who ate curry in the Birmingham area in the 70's swears by KD1 especially the chana dal.
Regards
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swears by KD1 especially the chana dal.
Commis,
i made the KD1 base for ages until www - i really do rate the base. the only change i made was to x2 the tin toms - i never thought to try adding tom puree. i also thought i did not like turmeric and was not sold on it doing much - how wrong i was.
the recipes are more difficult (never just quite there) - i do use the book as my 1st port of call though.
i've never tried Chana (chickpeas) or lentils (dal i presume). i need to get to the Prashad in Bradford to find out what i've been missing.
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1st draft on the madras - again for sanity check by those with good memory.
oil 6 tbsp
cardamon pod 1 off (lightly crushed)
g/g paste 1 tsp
base 4 tbsp
tom puree 2 tbsp
bassar 1 tsp
bunjarra 1 tbsp
salt 0.25 tsp
chilli powder 1 tsp (std, 0.5 tsp the hot stuff)
base 300ml
nb from Chaa006 Bombay recipe
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JerryM ,
How sure are you that T/A in the 60's - 70's used a Base Sauce :-\
Probably the demand then would have been nothing like today , I have read so many times about how much more flavoursome the Curries were then than they are now , unfortunately I cant comment on the flavour as my Indian days started in the 80's :'(
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very good point eminj,
i dont think anyone could be certain for sure if they used a base or not.
but i reckon in that era at the very least they roasted and grounded all there own spices.
Alan ;D
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For what it's worth, my thinking on this is, I'm sure that they would have used a base.
Base gravy is not exclusive to BIR and can be found in traditional dishes. The ingredients in most bases are very simple and very attainable, even in the 50's and 60's.
As for the demand back then Emin-j, I get what your saying, widespread, the demand probably wouldn't have been as high as it is today but, there weren't as many BIR's about either, so the percentage demand per establishment probably would have been close to what we see today?
On another note still related, I'm working on a "Base Paste" at the moment. Basically, it's all the ingredients that go into my base, without the water. The concept is, is to create a paste that can be used at the "dish" stage, whereby you can add it, along with water (Hot) in 100ml increments.
I've still got to work out how best to do this, in order of ingredients, and how much further cooking will be required after I've pureed everything. If this works out, I'll be able to freeze about 50 portions of this paste, using the same amount of space in the freezer as I would for 20 portions of base.
Wish me luck, lol
Ray :)
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Talking to a waiter in my local ta last night and he said that between 1974 -78 he used to work in the kitchens prepping the veg and making the gravy. In those days hand blenders wern't around and they had to blend it by forcing the gravy through a collinder type thing. He said that alone would take 2 hours per pan. The pan was so big he had to wash it out with a hosepipe in the back yard. I asked him how big the pot was and he indicated it was about four foot diameter and about four foot high!! He told me they used to cut the chicken up and cook it in the gravy as well. I asked him why curries tasted different in the "good old days" and he said that for one thing there were only limited spices available back then, and also that technology has changed the way curries are made (read into that whatever you like). So in conclusion I would like to be able to confirm that Gravy / Base sauce was usaed in BIR's in the 70's
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Please do. I still have some recipe books (Indian, British published) dating back to then, so I may be able to fill in some gaps
OK, as requested :
1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")
"Green ginger, and, very occasionally, green coriander, are perhaps rather difficult to get ..."
His recipes for Chicken Curries include :
Onion, garlic, chillies (fresh and./or ground), turmeric, coriander (fresh and/or ground), ghee, coconut milk, cumin, ground ginger, cardamom, cloves, fenugreek, yoghurt, black pepper, mustard seed, dessicated coconut.
Note that these do not all occur in the same recipe : I have simply listed the union of the various sets of ingredients specified.
2) Rosemary Brissenden, 1969/70 ("South East Asian Food")
"Coriander root, and coriander leaves, are not generally easy to buy ..."
Her recipes for Chicken Curries include :
Coriander seed, dried chillies, turmeric, green ginger, garlic, onions, cumin, black pepper, cinnamon bark, fenugreek, coconut milk, ghee, lemon juice, fennel seeds, curry leaves, lemon grass (remember title of book), mustard seeds, brown sugar, cardamom.
Hope this helps :
** Phil.
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1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")
I have that book. It's all about traditional Indian cooking which is about as far as you can get from anything to do with BIR. Another red herring?
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1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")
I have that book. It's all about traditional Indian cooking which is about as far as you can get from anything to do with BIR. Another red herring?
No, George, not another red herring. Jerry wrote "what i need help on from the members with good memory (and i may be asking too much ) is what veg was readily available in the 70's for curry ie fresh coriander as an example." and that is exactly the information I am offering him. It matters not one iota whether the book is concerned with BIR cuisine or authentic Indian home cuisine so long as it provides information on what was, and what was not, easily available in the UK market at that time.
** Phil.
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Phil,
many thanks - that is a very good list and all i think i need to go on. just as a further example i already know that carrot can be added to the CR02 base and am pretty sure it would work in KD1 too. i've resisted including as i really think that BIR back then was much closer to traditional than it is today (obvious i suppose given the chicken and egg philosophy).
i intend to try out the recipe "as is" this weekend and report back. at the end of the day all of this is pure guess work. i'm well happy giving it a try though.
the only real area sitting uncomfortable is using bassar. the "spice mix" for this madras will make a big difference on the dish taste. i picked bassar purely down to ease (and the traditional link). i'm thinking for future of taking CA's curry powder mix and stripping it back along the lines of Phil's list to enable a spice mix to be produced along the lines of the mouchak.
as pointed out by mickdabass i am sure chicken taste was present although it could not be detected from the food. the idea from jb of putting the liquid from cooking chicken back into the base sits well and is something for the next stage of refinement.
ps
i am 100% sure that base existed. a while ago i used a restaurant in warrington and got very pally with the staff. this was in 1987 but the chef had been cooking for many years and although we did not put a date on it i am pretty sure it would have been early 70s. this restaurant had always used base.
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hi jerry been thinking about this 1 quite a bit. if i am correct petes madras demo recipe from 2005 had very few ingredients to make the madras and had the taste, but whether it fits the bill of the 70's and 80's taste my curries started in the 90's. imo i believe curryhouse cookery base to be more of what a base would have been like in those decades but i think the ajwain seeds which needs to be balanced out. and the inclusion of spiced oil maybe apart of the this jigsaw. and possibly adding the sauce from the precooking of the chicken( if anyone has tried it) tried it at final dish stage and does give it another dimension ie savouriness.
regards
gary
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I asked him why curries tasted different in the "good old days" and he said that for one thing there were only limited spices available back then
I doubt if any of the spices (turmeric, cumin, etc) which go into any 'spice blend' (curry powder) recipes were not available in the 1970s. I say they were all available. It wasn't the Middle Ages, even if Pataks type pastes were not as extensive in terms of availability. The look and feel of the sauces was similar so I'm fairly sure they used base sauces. BIR curries tasted good then, and they still do now. I can't be sure there's much difference. I defy anyone to recall the precise nuances of taste from that long ago.
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My experiences of a Madras are very similar to what Ray described on page 1. For me what is really noteworthy about a quality modern day Madras, aside from the taste, is how consistent the texture and colour of the curry is.
I do wonder how realistic it is to be chasing 70/80s BIR. Are there even curry houses out there still doing them like that anymore?
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I do wonder how realistic it is to be chasing 70/80s BIR. Are there even curry houses out there still doing them like that anymore?
If my, now somewhat limited, BIR dining experiences are anything to go by then no they are not 'doing them like that anymore'. But then, that's really the point isn't it?
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If my, now somewhat limited, BIR dining experiences are anything to go by then no they are not 'doing them like that anymore'. But then, that's really the point isn't it?
What's really the point?
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there is more competition among rival bir now than ever. at least in my area, a new bir opens every 6 months. The older ones will surely use all the tricks in the book to stay ahead of the competition. I seriously doubt knowledge has been lost in these old bir,s. And from memory the taste has stayed consistant over the last 20 years. The really good restaurants take much longer preparing everything, and the price reflects this. the cheaper ones offer less quality, and taste, but devote less time to their craft. Hence they dont need to charge as much
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petes madras demo recipe from 2005
curryhouse cookery base
parker21,
many thanks for the prompt - i will re read those links of petes which i think are:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,118.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,118.0.html)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=536.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=536.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,845.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,845.0.html)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=536.msg4887#msg4887 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=536.msg4887#msg4887)
do you have a link for the curryhouse base - i can't recall seeing it.
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have got the base made.
ended up making a few tweaks as i made it:
1) used dried garlic 15g (was 30 g fresh) - felt dry was more likely to be cheaper in 70s
2) used 15g ginger - felt 8g looked too small
3) used 2 off large asian bay - 4 off looked too much
4) did not use spice ball and only removed anis before blending.
intend to blend the base a bit more (cardamom hush i think has not blended well enough). tastes pretty good though.
it made 2100ml and i added 450ml thinning water giving total cooked of 2.55L or 7 portions (300 plus 60ml for spices). will wait until tomorrow before deciding if to add more thinning water.
all in with ingredients
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4fa09b81c0d0c544bcc343868f84c107.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#4fa09b81c0d0c544bcc343868f84c107.jpg)
before blending
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4a922162c649499710f03148fdaba04b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#4a922162c649499710f03148fdaba04b.jpg)
finished base
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/25c5e56aedf0ba0a9b873cc530541b5b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#25c5e56aedf0ba0a9b873cc530541b5b.jpg)
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Hi Jerry
Is that reclaimed oil from the base in the jug? - looks very red :o - not sure I can see from the ingredients list why it should be so red? any ideas?
Not that it looks bad, in fact it all looks great, just wondering.
Thanks
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solarsplace,
yes it is reclaimed. i think it is the paprika that gives the red colour. i get the same red from the saffron. the rajver produces a dark colour which i think is down to the garam masala. it's something that i've not been able to resolve - which is better yellow or red oil. my TA has yellow.
i decant the oil off before blending.
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made 3 off curries last night. no time to give full report.
my wife summed up, "these are not professional dishes why are you cooking them".
nostalgia is going to be long hard trudge.
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my wife summed up, "these are not professional dishes why are you cooking them".
Oh dear. She's not Leith-trained, by any chance ?
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Phil,
yes "Oh dear" for sure. it's a tad galling as the lady in question was told not to continue with home economics at school.
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the lady in question was told not to continue with home economics at school.
I love that name : "Home Economics" -- takes me right back to my mother's "Economical Cookery and Menus for Every Day of the Year" by Mrs D D Cottington Taylor ! I wonder why they haven't updated it to "Food Science" or whatever ?
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anyhow back to business.
made 3 off dishes (all 6/10 ish):
1) dish 1 as spec but following Domi's advice used seeds from 3 off cardamom pods adding with spices
2) dish 2 used mouchak spice mix and seeds from 3 off pods adding with g/g paste, reduced oil to 4 tbsp
3) dish 3 upped seeds to 6 off pods and ground before adding with spices. reduced bassar to 0.5 tsp (1 tsp was too much)
had real problems with the oil constantly catching fire - not had this before. possible reasons paprika or leaving oil in fridge unsealed (usually in air tight container).
given my wife's comment. i'd thought the base past "threshold". i do think the oil is too weak. to confirm or otherwise the quality base i intend to use the rest of the base on the standard CR0 recipes.
thoughts going forward:
1) need to get the cardamom right. probably needs more in the base. the ground seeds added with the spice gave best result (aka spice mix)
2) colour - the red was not deep enough. i'm thinking caramelise the onions in the base next time along with up the paprika in the base. tom puree would do it i think but it's already high at 2 tbsp
3) quality of the base - maybe too much has been stripped out. thinking carrot back in.
4) interestingly the mouchak which i rate highly was well off taste range
in summary a decent start but still well short of the real 70s mccoy.
forgot pics:
dish1
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/f610a0f577f1a0044b66cde86842d305.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#f610a0f577f1a0044b66cde86842d305.jpg)
dish2
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5d7ac2f0cbd25412078a45b1cb93d76e.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#5d7ac2f0cbd25412078a45b1cb93d76e.jpg)
dish3
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1cff691af99347de7984834aaceb1cce.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#1cff691af99347de7984834aaceb1cce.jpg)
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Hi JM. Hi to all.
I'm new here, but have been making curries on and off for a number of years. My answer to your question and my opinion on the 70's and early 80's madras would have to be "simplicity". The establishments back then, were, from recollection, basic to say the least, as were the curries they produced. Some of the best curries came from scruffiest joints around.
Most were run by someone from the local community who was not necessarily a chef, just someone who could cook. Someone who was out just to make a living so to speak. I wouldn't have thought they went overboard with too many ingredients. Probably just a simple straightforward onion base along with a minimum of spices added at the point of cooking the curry.
Compared to today's equivalents, the sauce back then was always on the thin side and as smooth as could be. Always reddish in colour and plenty of oil floating on top. Nothing else in there other than the chicken which was not always breast meat.
Sadly, nowadays, these places of homage no longer exist (I blame Health and Hygiene), and along with their demise so too has the simplicity of the 70's style madras. As a poor analogy. If the `Greasy Joe's Truck Stop` went the same way, then we'd be hankering after the old time fry-ups. Because let's face it. If you wanted the best fry-up where would you go....the fancy restaurant up the road, or the Truck Stop next to it?
One thing back then. I remember the Asian stores sold large quantities of "tomato powder". Maybe this was used instead of tinned, or puree. Just a thought.
Steve.
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Strangely enough I was laying in bed last night thinking about this, having just cooked and eaten a lamb madras for dinner (using pre-roast lamb : I will return to this in another thread because I was very surprised to find that it is possible to get pre-roast lamb to soften sufficiently to both absorb the spices properly and to create the correct texture).
And what I suddenly remembered is that there was a time when there were two quite distinct forms of lamb (or mutton, or goat) Madras : one in which you could taste the primary ingredient as integral to the sauce, and one in which you knew d@mned well that this was just pre-spiced lamb (or whatever) pieces dunked in a generic sauce. And of course the version that most preferred was the one where the flavour of the meat also permeated the sauce. So my next lamb curry will be made using lamb stock in the base sauce rather than water.
** Phil.
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stevepaul,
a big welcome sir. i can relate directly to all you say - it is exactly how i'm trying to approach the nostalgia trip.
tom powder has been raised previously and i've had no luck finding it - all my attempts have led to paprika. do you know if it is different to paprika.
i do intend to add in the chicken at some point but i want to get the basic sort of building blocks in place 1st.
i'll post next the outcome of last nights cooking so that we can reflect on where to next.
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do you know if it is different to paprika.
Paprika comes from pepper. Tomato powder comes from ... err ... tomatoes!
Almost as different as chalk and cheese.
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got my standard CR0 recipes out last night and cooked 3 off curries (plain curry, 976bar kashmiri x2).
the good lady said she would be happy to pay for them. this was good news as it demonstrated to me that the base although not the best it can be does pass the threshold.
the stark problem now is that if these std dishes were 9/10 (10/10 with normal bases) then there is some distance to bridge between the 6/10 for the 70s madras.
out of the earlier 3 off thoughts going fwd (cardamom, colour, base quality) colour is by far the most urgent to crack. the 70s madras has a real deep red colour to it.
my only thought at the moment is to caramelise the onion either for the base (something i've never tried) or for the dish itself. this red colour is coming from the ingredients for me and i can't really convince myself that it's down to cooking the onion.
i'm looking for tomato powder or along those lines. it's most certainly not food colouring.
Plain Curry
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/86f3d179d26d308070f467533880ef7a.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#86f3d179d26d308070f467533880ef7a.jpg)
976bar Kashmiri
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/364bdcd2e0ac0c1caed5eb583e8c3057.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#364bdcd2e0ac0c1caed5eb583e8c3057.jpg)
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Paprika comes from pepper. Tomato powder comes from ... err ... tomatoes!
George,
it's exactly as you say. i'm only going on my experiences of asking for "tomato powder" in 2 off asian stores - both led to paprika. what i'm getting at is if tomato powder does exist in the asian cooking world what is it called.
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Jerry as you probably know we've been down the tomato powder route a couple of times before now.
It first got mentioned by haldi a few years ago when he reported that the chefs at the takeaway he was able to get a into referred to the paprika as tomato powder. ???
After some debate it was finally decided that it really was paprika that they were referring to and not actual tomato powder.
Now I distinctly remember doing a quick Google search at the time and finding a few suppliers of real tomato powder but having repeated the exercise just now I can't find even one amongst the usual online suppliers. Unless you want a few hundred kilos of the stuff that is! :o
Anyway, I really think this is a bit of a red herring. I honestly doubt that it will, if you can find it, turn out to be a 'secret' ingredient.
I'd bet that the red colour you refer to in the madras is down to extra tomato paste, lashings of Kashmiri (or similar bright red) chilli powder and, although you personally doubt it, red food colouring.
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Now I distinctly remember doing a quick Google search at the time and finding a few suppliers of real tomato powder but having repeated the exercise just now I can't find even one amongst the usual online suppliers. Unless you want a few hundred kilos of the stuff that is! :o
Ee, tha's not bin tryin' lad : look'ee ere (http://onsalenow.org.uk/?p=s&sch=details&store=186&prod=1898638). Furst 'it, that wurr ...
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JM,
Back when I asked in the Asian store what the red powder was the only name they used was tomato powder, and it is obviously a different animal than paprika. It is actually made from spray dried tomatoes. You can buy it on-line but it is dammed expensive. Whether it would make any difference to an actual curry is speculative in my opinion.
Something else they always had in the store were unlabeled plastic bags filled with three spices. Each spice had been scooped in, one on top of the other, in what looked like equal amounts. One was red, one yellow and the third was brownish. When I inquired as to what the mix was, they simply said, curry. Unfortunately I didn't ask what the spices were so that's not going to be much help to you.
I do believe the heat from a 70's madras came from using green chilies as opposed to red chili powder. To my mind they give what I describe as a dry heat and I can only reproduce that old time taste sensation by using them. No chili powder I have tried offers the same experience. That said I never did see any green chili in the sauce so maybe it was made into a paste?
Jerry. Can you confirm that the sauce of the seventies was so thin you literally couldn't scoop it up using a piece of chapatti. That's how I remember it, but at the time I'd probably had a gallon of cider beforehand and a paracetamol breakfast the morning after....oh happy days.
Steve.
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Something else they always had in the store were unlabeled plastic bags filled with three spices. Each spice had been scooped in, one on top of the other, in what looked like equal amounts. One was red, one yellow and the third was brownish. When I inquired as to what the mix was, they simply said, curry. Unfortunately I didn't ask what the spices were so that's not going to be much help to you.
I would hazard a guess of chillies, turmeric and cumin.
Jerry. Can you confirm that the sauce of the seventies was so thin you literally couldn't scoop it up using a piece of chapatti.
I think that by the time you got to the "curry" end of the spectrum, the sauce was fairly insubstantial, but the opposite end (Bangalore phal) was anything but, and was at times likened to eating chilly puree :-) So I would hazard a guess that both vindaloo and Madras had body, but not necessarily the body which we associate with them today.
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I would agree with your guess of chilies, turmeric and cumin. They seem the obvious choice.
When it comes to the consistency of the sauce from back then, well, from a standard curry up to a phal the sauce remained the same....thin. Only the heat varied. The was no difference between the madras I ordered, or the phal my friend had (the one and only time he did). This seemed to be the norm throughout the eat in/take away curry houses in and around the town where I lived (Accrington)
But each establishment had it's own unique taste and everybody had their favourite one. Mine was a small TA, that, if you hadn't have known better you would have sworn it was an empty condemned shop. But boy, could that guy turn out a great madras, and it was the cheapest in town.
Steve.
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Secret Santa,
i very much agree - i'm not looking for tomato powder. i am convinced in BIR terminology it's paprika.
stevepaul,
you could be right on the use of green chilli. i don't know enough about it yet having not used it as much as i'd like. i know it was used in phal and am convinced it was used in vindaloo too. a restaurant gave us a plate of the green chillies on one occasion when we asked what made the curry so hot. the chilli part of it is fine tuning for me - i need to get the basic taste working 1st.
my experience is that the curry was not thin - a friend actually had chapatii in place of rice quite often - we had not discovered naan at that point. the madras was very deep red - i think down to either paprika, more tom puree, caramelised onion or cinnamon bark. other than the colour the only other distinct feature was an understone of green cardamom. it really was an onion gravy converted into curry. very smooth and moorish.
i have 1 off portion of base left and intend to up the paprika and puree to see if they have the desired effect.
i think i need a more potent base also to help out. the reclaimed oil was poor which tells a lot about the base.
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Hi Jerry,
I have been watching this thread with interest, wondering what ingredients would have been available back in the 60's and 70's, and to be honest, it's pretty much the same as what is available today, especially for a base sauce.
I think if we are looking for the missing taste in ingredients, we may be going down the wrong path?
I'm beginning to think it's more to do with the cooking and the quality of the equipment!
Yeah, for sure, the top notch places would have had the big, industrial style burners installed but I can't help wondering what the little places had? Maybe one or two domestic cookers?
What was the calibre of the chef? Was he an accomplished Indian curry chef, or a family member who needed to be in employment to stay in the country? All of these things must have an effect on the end dish.
Could it be that the curries of old wasn't as good as they are today, technically? They were certainly hotter, we know that but was they better? Admittedly, my curry eating didn't really start until the 80's but even then, it was something that you ate, after a night of ale, not something that you did on a regular basis like, Friday night, fish suppers" I know that some of the more established members crave the old style flavour but could it be based on a romantic notion, that it was better back then?
Listen to some of the members recollection of the old style curry "Much Hotter" and "A much thinner sauce" not to mention "They were much oilier back then" Do any of these descriptions really make us believe that the curries were better back then?
I think the only way that we will ever crack this, is if we find ourselves an 80yr old retired Indian chef, who is will to give up his knowledge for the good of this forum....not going to hold my breath on that one.
Incidentally, I did a web search to see if there was anything that could shed some light on the subject. There wasn't, but some members will be pleased to know that we get a mention on Wikipedia;
Curry house cuisine at home
The popularity of curry houses in Britain has encouraged a number of publications aiming to show how the curry house cuisine, as opposed to authentic Indian cuisine, can be recreated at home. Notable publications are Kris Dhillon's book "The Curry Secret" which was first published in 1989 but has been reprinted as recently as 2008. Dhillon reports having had experience working in her own Indian-style restaurant before publishing the book. In contrast, Bruce Edwards published a short series of articles in 1990 based mostly on deduction and experiments in trying to recreate his experiences as a restaurant customer. The series consisted of three articles published in the Curry Club Magazine. Edwards published a follow-up series in the same magazine three years later, using information he had since learned from a behind-the-scenes look of an Indian take-away restaurant. Edwards' articles are still used as a reference by members of the online forum "Curry Recipes Online", where he has also informally published a few brief further follow-ups.
Ray :)
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Being Scottish I can personally vouch that the old style curries had a secret ingredient called Scotch Mist.
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... a secret ingredient called Scotch Mist.
Would that be what they call uisge beatha in the Gaelic ?
** Phil.
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Razor,
much appreciate your thoughts. it's always usefull to step back and ask those arkward questions.
we're they better in the 70s - for me no with the exception of vindaloo. the madras was quite different and i think the bhuna although i've little experience of this.
was it after beer - a small yes. we were lucky to eat out at least 3 times a week. sunday afternoons were the fav and at least one of us was driving.
the cooking and the equipment for me today is crucial. at this 70s game i'm really sort of ball park - can i get anywhere like and then fine tune.
i too am convinced that most of the ingredient we have today existed then but in it's original form ie no pre made mixes. i don't believe you could buy tandoori masala. whether you could get it mixed for you i don't know. you certainly could for curry powder and not just one type of curry powder they would adjust it to your own tastes.
as an example on the ingredient front - take fresh coriander. this would have been grown in the UK as it does today. it would not have been available out of season. so for me this is not a 70s ingredient. i'm trying to approach the search along these lines.
the other side to this is that by forcing myself to go off the path i know to work i'm hoping to take on learning that i would otherwise miss. it's potentially a win win.
the big thing to crack 1st is the colour - without this the recipe is far too far off the track. i think the best description is more like crimson - it's certainly not a red or a hearing.
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the big thing to crack 1st is the colour - without this the recipe is far too far off the track. i think the best description is more like crimson - it's certainly not a red or a hearing.
The more I think about this colour issue, the more convinced I am that they were using Tandoori Red (a powdered food colouring possibly no longer available for reasons of suspected (or even proven) carcinogenicity). I certainly had some in my cupboard at that time -- a rather large jar, in fact ! Allow the powder to escape, and everything it touched became indelibly stained crimson ...
** Phil.
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Phil,
you're a star for sure. upto now i've resisted using any colouring. i would not have expected it to exist back then - amazed.
i'll have to have a little hunt to see what's available.
why this is so important is that it closes a door on the existence of an "unknown" ingredient.
many thanks.
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I wish I knew where mine has gone, Jerry : I could post you some if I knew. Unfortunately we've moved house twice since those days, and I fear it was thought too dangerous to bring with us : not from the carcinogenicity aspect, you understand, just from the risk of it escaping during the move and staining every one of our belongings crimson red for all eternity !
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i had enough with a little water to make 2 off portions out of the 1st batch of base.
i was cooking for myself and was able to up the chilli towards madras strength.
i added 0.5 tsp of paprika to both dishes
i upped tom tom puree aiming for sort of x2 (2 off heaped cutlery teaspoons, in wt 92g in total or 46g per portion).
i upped green cardamom seed to 8 off husk per portion.
in dish 2 i added 1 dipped cutlery tsp of lyle's black treacle.
Observations:
the addition of paprika is needed but amount may need reducing. the seeds from the cardamom husk are about right. they need grinding better (my grinder is not that good on small amounts). the addition of black gold was good but needs reducing (and may go in the base down to difficulties of handling).
Going forward:
1) need to try out caramelising either in the base or in the dish. i think i'm leaning towards the base.
2) time to add in some green chilli
3) time to add in the juice from cooking chicken (to the base, re jb post)
4) need a tad of food colour
dish 1 LHS dish 2 RHS
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8d9757c59e1d715638f532feea56ff22.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8d9757c59e1d715638f532feea56ff22.jpg)
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Phil,
the importance is your identification of it. finding an equivalent today i'm quite confident on.
many thanks
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hi jerry have you tried using kashmiri chilli powder in your madras as this would give the red colour without the heat of just normal chilli powder which would be a blend of different chillies and normally hotter. if you watch the episode of "in search of perfection" hestons' perfect chicken tikka masala. he visited the moti mahal in new delhi on his quest to find the origins of the above dish ( he gave up his search with confusion) but went into the kitchen to see how they made it. first was a garlic and ginger paste then sprinkled heavily a mild bright red chilli powder he said this gives it its colour, the yoghurt marinade was added after marinating for 24 hours.
hope this helps
kind regards
gary :)
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... a secret ingredient called Scotch Mist.
Would that be what they call uisge beatha in the Gaelic ?
** Phil.
Actually no Phil, though I must admit I am partial to a drop or two of malt. Scotch mist is an expression that means "nothing." I suppose it's my way of saying this is a forum about cookery and not alchemy.
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Actually no Phil, though I must admit I am partial to a drop or two of malt. Scotch mist is an expression that means "nothing." I suppose it's my way of saying this is a forum about cookery and not alchemy.
I know, it was meant as a joke, but sadly there are no <joke> tags in BB code !
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no worries Phil
sl
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An urrainn dhut bruidhinn n
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An urrainn dhut bruidhinn n
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Argh, of course : do dheagh shl
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Argh, of course : do dheagh shl
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parker21,
thanks for idea on kashmiri chilli powder. i use this quite a lot. i have it and the deggi mirch. both are top notch chilli powder that i like a lot.
the 70s chilli taste is just the same as today's plain chilli powder ie nothing special just more of it. the "crimson" colour i am now certain is down to food colouring alone.
i feel enough of the mist has cleared to enable a 2nd go without feeling that it would be a waste of time. going to be a while down to the time of year - season to be jolly (home pizza and curry TA / eat in).