Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: flavorjunkie on October 06, 2010, 07:52 PM
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I would be very interested in what others think of the following...
When cooking spices it is a generally accepted fact that they release their flavours much more readily in oil than they do in water. This will have an impact on the making of curry base sauces and also individual curries.
Consequently, if a base sauce recipe calls for the spices to be included with all the other ingredients, including a quantity of water, it ensures that the release of flavour from the spices is inhibited. This may be why base sauce recipes often include a lot of oil. This will help the flavour release but does have a health impact in that we are probably consuming rather more oil than is good for us. In addition, when an individual curry is made, the style of cooking will impact on whether the dominant flavour comes from the base sauce, from the spices or a combination of both.
If a lot of base sauce is added and the spices are added to this, then, as previously mentioned, the spices will be cooking mainly in water with the consequent inhibiting of flavour release. This will mean that the flavour of the base sauce may well dominate the spices and therefore the final curry. If, on the other hand, the spices are initially cooked in oil and their flavours fully released and base sauce is gradually added as the cooking proceeds then the flavour of the spices may well dominate over the base sauce.
Many restaurants, along with their own base sauce, will use their own spice mix that can vary little from one curry to the next thereby almost ensuring that most of the curries on offer taste very similar. Add to this the fact that they use the same precooked meat in most of their curries and it becomes obvious why most of their offerings are similar. I experienced this recently when I visited the same restaurant 4 nights in a row and selected a different curry each time. The menu descriptions appeared very different but they basically all tasted the same.
There will naturally be exceptions to this with variations from restaurant to restaurant and area to area. No doubt different chef's cooking styles will also come into play, but the general principle appears reasonable.
I have therefore adopted a cooking style that uses a minimally spiced base sauce, with less oil than normal, and the same precooked chicken in all recipes. I cook different mixes of spices in oil to begin with and then, usually, gradually add base sauce as the cooking proceeds, along with the other ingredients. The result is a large variety of curries that are cooked BIR style but are very different in final taste. It suits me fine.
What do you think? Is it nonesense or does it have some mileage?
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good post flavourjunkie
It didn't strike me as nonsense at all.
I suppose it got me to thinking about the base with the least spicing which would be an onion puree, perhaps with garlic and ginger, perhaps not. Take that to its extreme and you have the one-off, baseless curry as cooked in Indian homes. I wonder if you have a bit of a crossover between that and mass produced curries?
The best of both worlds perhaps?
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It makes perfect sense to me, and also supports Kris Dhillon's methodology which uses very little spice in the base sauce at all (Stage-1: onion, garlic, ginger, water, salt; Stage-2 : Stage-1 + tomato, turmeric, paprika, oil).
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I have therefore adopted a cooking style that uses a minimally spiced base sauce, with less oil than normal, and the same precooked chicken in all recipes. I cook different mixes of spices in oil to begin with and then, usually, gradually add base sauce as the cooking proceeds, along with the other ingredients. The result is a large variety of curries that are cooked BIR style but are very different in final taste. It suits me fine.
What do you think?
I'm sorry, but your paragraph above doesn't make much sense to me. Please could you re-write it to make it clear what you're suggesting. Do you have one base sauce and various spiced oils, or what? How much spiced oil do you add to each resultant curry to vary the flavour of each, and when? Or have I misunderstood, especially as you say you use less oil than usual? I'm sorry I'm so confused.
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George,
Sorry for any confusion :(
I typically use only one base sauce. This is used to make all my curries.
I do not use spiced oil as such, but, normally, initially cook whatever spices I am using in about 1 tbspn of oil to release their flavours. Depending on the actual curry I am making I will then add say 40 ml of base sauce and then gradually add the rest of the base sauce and other ingredients throughout the cooking process. I find this produces very different flavours rather that everything coming out much the same.
Does that make more sense?
If you are interested you could see it in more detail on my web site, although I am not trying to promote this here. It is a site dedicated to cooking for 1 person and has a section devoted to takeaway styled curries that is quite comprehensive.
You can find it at www.cook4one.co.uk/c2 (http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2)
In addition there is a menu page at www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/rm.html (http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/rm.html).
Alternatively you could go to www.cook4one.co.uk (http://www.cook4one.co.uk) and negotiate from there.
The C41 base sauce is the one I usually use although there are others described.
It may appear to be very similar to the KD2 version, but this is entirely coincidental and I could go on for ages describing how it evolved, but that's another story.
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Hi Flavourjunkie,
This post would be right up Jerry's street and once he picks up on it, I'm sure that he will offer you some very sound opinions, based on his extensive experimentation of all variables.
I get exactly where your coming from with regards to most dishes on the BIR menu almost having the same flavour.
Here's my theory, and I know not everyone will like this theory (SS) ;)
Most run of the mill BIR curries are "formula" recipes, all using the same base, same spice mix and same precooked meat. This will inevitably produce the same familiar flavour throughout their range. For example:
Plain Chicken Curry;
1 tsp garlic/ginger paste
300ml base,
3 tbs veg oil,
1 tsp spice mix
1 portion of precooked meat.
Turn this into a Bhuna by adding an extra
1 tsp spice mix
1 chopped onion
1 chopped tomato
1 portion of precooked mixed peppers
and reduce the sauce until quite dry.
Turn this into a dupiaza by adding,
1 extra sliced fried onions
0.5 tsp chilli powder
pinch of sugar
1 tsp garlic/ginger paste
Don't reduce the sauce as much as you would for the bhuna.
Turn this into a Jal Frezi by adding extra;
1 tsp chilli powder
5 fresh green chilli's
1 tomato quartered
0.5 tsp of black pepper.
Ok, so these are not exact recipes but I'm using these stepped changes as examples of formula curries. Does that make any sense?
If you are using the same base and precooked meat in all your curries but you are changing your spice compositions to suit each curry style, then you are not really following the BIR style, albeit that your final dishes may be amazing. The trouble is, most of the BIR around the country, want to churn out dishes, with as little effort as possible, and make as much money as they can, hence the invention of formula curry dishes. Sad but true. Whereas what you are doing, is really defining each dish by giving it it's own masala, which is a far more complicated way of doing things, but will produce a very unique flavour to each of your dishes.
Just picking up on your comments with regards to the base, Axe and myself were discussing this a while back and I decided to knock up a batch of, onion, garlic, ginger and turmeric base, nothing else. The colour was vile, the smell wasn't great either. With that said, I cooked my standard madras with it, doubling the amount of spice mix that I usually use, adding slightly more tom puree than normal. What I ended up with, was a reasonably good quality madras, not quite as nice as my standard recipe but good nonetheless. Unfortunately, I didn't bother to continue with the experiment, as it had already answered the question, can a base consist of very few ingredients and still be a useable base? and the answer was a definite YES IT CAN.
It's a very good post FJ and deserves some interesting debate.
Ray :)
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This post would be right up Jerry's street and once he picks up on it, I'm sure that he will offer you some very sound opinions, based on his extensive experimentation of all variables.
Aren't any other opinions as highly regarded in your opinion? God help us.
I agree with flavourjunkie's thinking and it fits with a certain strain of thought mentioned here many times, over many years, i.e. to keep the base sauce quite neutral, bland and almost boring, in order to produce anything from a korma to a phall, later. Any other approach makes less sense, in my opinion. I could never understand how anyone could judge a base by regarding and tasting it like soup, as if it's a finished product in its own right.
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I could never understand how anyone could judge a base by regarding and tasting it like soup, as if it's a finished product in its own right.
Hi George
I'm not sure it is wise to impose any limits of what should or should not be measured, judged or assessed, surely doing that would only impede progress?
What if a genuine base were found to be intriguing and very tasty in its own right, surely that is worth discussion?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.msg46178#msg46178 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.msg46178#msg46178)
Regards
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George,
Aren't any other opinions as highly regarded in your opinion? God help us.
On the contrary George, I hold many peoples opinions in high regard. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing to experiment as openly as Jerry does and publish their findings. I don't expect everyone to agree with each others opinions or even like them for that matter but that is what the forum is about, expressing opinions, offering advice or another view on a topic, which may help someone out in the long run.
Personally, I don't like your "obvious" opinion of Jerry, criticising his grammar or suggesting that, if his opinions are of value to the rest of the members, then we are in trouble, but you, don't see me having a dig, do you?
The rest of your post in this topic is fair enough but unfortunately, you choose to open your post with a presumption, that is way off the mark BTW, and close your post with yet another dismissive view on how people judge their/a base. It's their opinion George, not yours, leave them to it, please!
Finally, I would like to apologies to FlavourJunkie, for reactively going off topic. Like I said before, I hope the rest of this topic receives the debate it deserves.
Ray
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Razor,
Your comments about my style is exactly true.
I have never intended to 100% replicate any given curry from any given restaurant, but wanted a whole load of curries that were distinctive and delicious (my opinion of course and that of other curry lovers I have cooked for ;)).
So they may not strictly follow true BIR and that's why I called them restaurant style meaning that they may use a traditional slant but are cooked quickly in BIR style ie with base sauce and precooked meat. There never seemed much point to me in cooking loads of curries (50 odd at present) that are all just variations on a theme as your post correctly observed.
As to them being complicated, I feel that they are in fact fairly simple, but well worth any extra effort that may be required.
Maybe this debate will go beyond what I ever expected. ;D
Rest assured no offense has been taken. 8)
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Flavourjunkie, I feel you have been a naughty boy here and have got us caught up in a potentially good post with the real reason having us hook up to your site. If you haven't forgive me but I will find it hard to believe. This is a cheap tactic used by countless wannabe Internet traders to infiltrate onto forums to drive traffic to their site and their affiliate earning process. Years ago this site was manipulated by another naughty boy who caused havoc and ran off with some really good contributors to set up a rival site that was ultimately there to make him money even if some of those folks can't see it or won't admit it. I think asking if we would want to get in touch privately to get the details would have been better but I for one am pissed that you have taken advantage of our passion for our forum and it's contents to do the spiv thing. Not impressed by you but do love the responses you have got. I would like to see you withdraw your site. I have a number that I would love to promote to you all too but would never dream of it even if you now all asked me for them because is in my humble opinion totally unacceptable. PP
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Maybe I am being naive, but that site just looks like a regular fansite to me.
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Hi FJ,
Rest assured no offense has been taken
Thanks for you understanding.
Ray :)
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Maybe I am being naive, but that site just looks like a regular fansite to me.
Me too! Can you make money from this type of site?
Ray :)
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I too thought FJ's site was just a "hobby" site with no commercial aspect.
In fact I felt a bit sorry for him for cooking for one all the time! Billy Nomates and all that.
Paul.
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Sorry for any misconceptions.
The site is purely for personal interest. There are no adverts and absolutely no revenue from it. You could call it a hobby site but I'm not sure I'd call eating a "hobby".
I only posted the address in trying to answer George's questions and it was the easiest way to give a complete answer.
When I found myself, a few years ago, in the position of having to cook for myself I had a problem - very little cooking experience, fed up with eating frozen food with most recipes for 4 persons and I got fed up with making 4 portions - eating one and freezing 3.
So I had to figure out how to cut recipes down. I just wanted to share what I could with others in the same position.
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I have to say, that I've been browsing your site for a bit and it's pretty impressive. Might give a couple of those recipes a go, as I always cook for one.
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I'm not sure it is wise to impose any limits of what should or should not be measured, judged or assessed, surely doing that would only impede progress?
I agree that nobody can impose limits or control what anyone else does. Progress might be impeded if some folks look up to so-called experts, only to find they may be seriously misguided, and not so expert after all.
I welcome flavourjunkie's input and I don't even see his approach as over-complicated. It strikes me as what some of the best BIRs are likely to do.
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I may have jumped the gun here and may well be wrong in this case. I do feel strongly about this given what happened in the past. I like many others have invested a great deal of time and energy into our forum Ove the years and have promoted it when ever I get a chance. I will always pick up on this kind of thing and would stop participating as a matter of principle if others were condoning what I am clearly concerned about and felt I was wrong in wanting to protect things this way. I am prepared to accept that others have endorsed flavourjunkie's site as being OK and so I am sorry if I have been wrong this time. I am also prepared to accept that my views may belong to a minority of one and if so I will sadly move on now and let the majority if they exist do what they will with this wonderful resource but I couldn't in all
honesty continue to participate. Sorry PP
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I may have jumped the gun here and may well be wrong in this case. I do feel strongly about this given what happened in the past. I like many others have invested a great deal of time and energy into our forum Ove the years and have promoted it when ever I get a chance. I will always pick up on this kind of thing and would stop participating as a matter of principle if others were condoning what I am clearly concerned about and felt I was wrong in wanting to protect things this way. I am prepared to accept that others have endorsed flavourjunkie's site as being OK and so I am sorry if I have been wrong this time. I am also prepared to accept that my views may belong to a minority of one and if so I will sadly move on now and let the majority if they exist do what they will with this wonderful resource but I couldn't in all
honesty continue to participate. Sorry PP
Hi Panpot
By the end of your post, I could not tell if you are saying that you are throwing in the towel so to speak?
If this is the case, please don't do that! - you are not in a minority! - you are a member of a forum where the over whelming majority feels very passionate about the site and its mission and will respect your concerns!
EDIT: Sorry to slightly OT the original post - have slapped self on legs ;)
Regards
Russell
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Sorry PP, but I need to pick you up on this, just to get it straight in my mind.
I am also prepared to accept that my views may belong to a minority of one
That couldn't be further from the truth PP. I, and I believe many others share your passion for this site, and if anything or anyone was doing anything to the detriment of this great site, I would also vehemently voice my opinion, as you have done.
and let the majority if they exist
Of course they exist, just look at the amount of post counts certain members have. Ok, I don't think any of us really take the "spice master" or "Curry god" tags that go with our post counts seriously but surely that must show how passionate certain members are?
You was absolutely correct in confronting FJ about promoting his own site, but probably went about it the wrong way. That's fine, you were big enough to acknowledge that in your last post in this thread. With that said, the tone of your post still comes across (on screen) as if your still upset because a few of us have come to the conclusion that FJ's site is nothing more than a "fansite" and of little threat to cr0. On reading it, I also share SP's fears, that you are suggesting that your going to call it a day, as an active member on this great site.
PP, if that is the case, then I for one, and I'm sure I speak for others too, would be very sad to see you go. The Ashoka recipes have been a revelation to many a member on here, and all your hard work in bringing them to cr0 has been much appreciated by all.
Please don't let a misunderstanding influence your participation here. It's just one of those things, lets move on!
I am also sorry to go off topic (once again) but I need to let PP know that he is not alone in wanting to protect this great site.
Ray :)
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Can anyone lend me a tenner till Friday?
Sorry, off topic... ;D
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http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/sb/c41vindaloo.html (http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/sb/c41vindaloo.html)
Went straight to the vindaloo; potatoes and vinegar.
Noooooooo!
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http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/sb/c41vindaloo.html (http://www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/sb/c41vindaloo.html)
Went straight to the vindaloo; potatoes and vinegar.
Noooooooo!
I can see why you'd be appaled by thye inclusion of vinegar but what's wrong with potatoes?
We could debate why potatoes got into the dish in the first place but if it ain't got spuds in it, it ain't a BIR vindaloo!
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I can see why you'd be appaled by thye inclusion of vinegar but what's wrong with potatoes?
To be honest, I can't even see why V-C would be appalled at the inclusion of vinegar : approximately 10% of the hits for "vindaloo" returned by Google also contain the word "vinegar", so it's by by no means unknown for vindaloos to include this ingredient. Kris Dhillon writes in her most recent book "Traditionally, a combination of clear and dark vinegars is often used to make vindaloo", Dave Loyden has it in his recipes for vindaloo (with the alternative of lemon), and doing a search on CR0 for vinegar within the vindaloo sub-forum also throws up about eight hits ...
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SS I never put spuds in and have rarely eaten them in BIRs.
Chaa006
I wasn't appalled, it's just the first thing I look for in a recipe book, if a vindy has vinegar then it ain't BIR mate. :)
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SS I never put spuds in and have rarely eaten them in BIRs.
Hmmm, I don't know what to say about that other than every Vindaloo I've ever had has had one or two pieces of potato in it. ???
In fact it's often the only way, other than the diffrence in heat, that you can tell it's a vindaloo and not a madras.
I don't think you're UK based are you? Are you referring to what vindaloos are like where you are?
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To be honest, I can't even see why V-C would be appalled at the inclusion of vinegar : approximately 10% of the hits for "vindaloo" returned by Google also contain the word "vinegar", so it's by by no means unknown for vindaloos to include this ingredient. Kris Dhillon writes in her most recent book "Traditionally, a combination of clear and dark vinegars is often used to make vindaloo", Dave Loyden has it in his recipes for vindaloo (with the alternative of lemon), and doing a search on CR0 for vinegar within the vindaloo sub-forum also throws up about eight hits ...
Yes but that's all based on authentic Goan Vindaloo Phil. BIR curries have never (in my experience) had vinegar or, for that matter, any souring agent (like lemon dressing) in them.
It always winds me up when I see lemon or vinegar added to vindaloo but that's because I'm used to old style BIR curries.
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SS
I'm from Merseyside originally, have lived in Oz for two years. I've had a few vindaloos with spuds in but the majority didn't. You can tell a vindaloo from a madras in two ways depending on where you are;
Eat in; waiter brings it to you and tells you what it is.
Take away; the word 'Vindaloo' will be written on the lid of the carton.
I think it's probably a regional thing, not many places I've been to put spuds in a vindaloo... (though do in all the places in Oz and they're awful).
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SS I never put spuds in and have rarely eaten them in BIRs.
Chaa006
I wasn't appalled, it's just the first thing I look for in a recipe book, if a vindy has vinegar then it ain't BIR mate. :)
Hi
From time to time, I have read on this forum that people find it an outrage that a recipe suggests adding a splash of vinegar to a BIR vindaloo - this reaction puzzles me.
The KD, Under Cover, CA recipes for example, not to mention several others all specify that vinegar is used? what should be used in its place?
A Vindaloo is my favourite, and it should be hot, garlicky, tomatoey and bitter. I think when you have had a proper vindaloo you should feel dirty, wrong and a little damaged. A little squirt of lemon juice just will not create that!
BTW, never ever had a Vindaloo from a BIR that did not have some potato in it?
cheers
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I can vouchsafe that none of the vindaloos I have eaten in Merseyside, Manchester or Bolton have had vinegar in them; a few have had potatoes, sure, but not the majority by a long shot. To me a vindaloo is just a seriously spiced up madras.
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The KD, Under Cover, CA recipes for example, not to mention several others all specify that vinegar is used?
That would be my opening argument for why vinegar should not be used!
A Vindaloo is my favourite, and it should be hot, garlicky, tomatoey and bitter...
In your opinion! I'd agree on the hot and garlicky and disagree vehemently on the tomatoey and especially bitter.
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Out of curiosity, SS, when cooking vindaloos what recipe do you use?
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Out of curiosity, SS, when cooking vindaloos what recipe do you use?
Whichever one I use it doesn't feature any souring agent and is low on tomato and has some spuds in it. ;D ;)
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Out of curiosity, SS, when cooking vindaloos what recipe do you use?
Whichever one I use it doesn't feature any souring agent and is low on tomato and has some spuds in it. ;D ;)
But is it one off this site (and what base do you use with it)? I cannot remember the last time I had a vindaloo, but all this talk is giving me a hankering for one. ;D
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i don't think there is a vindaloo recipe on the site or anywhere on the www. CA's is the closest i've come across. it does have vinegar in it though - like Secrete Santa i don't think it's used in the BIR version (of course i have no knowledge to back this up only my taste buds).
i don't see vindaloo as a supped up madras. it's very different. very little tom puree and probably a harder frying of the spices to give a darker appearance. if there is vinegar then it's very little - i'd put money on lemon dressing.
the lip burn and my attempts at stuffing more chilli powder into a portion tell me fresh green chilli must be a major part of the dish.
also we once asked in a restaurant what made a phall so hot - the chef sent out a plate of those smaller variety of the green chilli.
the potato is irrelevant to me too - adds nothing to the flavour - just a talking point (somehow the heat intensifies within it).
i think Panpots ashoka North Indian Garlic sauce may move us closer towards the BIR dish yet it contains yes "vinegar". something i plan to work on in the future.
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The KD, Under Cover, CA recipes for example, not to mention several others all specify that vinegar is used?
That would be my opening argument for why vinegar should not be used!
A Vindaloo is my favourite, and it should be hot, garlicky, tomatoey and bitter...
In your opinion! I'd agree on the hot and garlicky and disagree vehemently on the tomatoey and especially bitter.
Hi SS
Please tell me where you live (roughly I mean) so I can ponder if there may be some regional trend that differs to mine in the SE.
Several of my favourite TA's and restaurants in the SE in particular Surrey & Hampshire serve their Vindaloo as a completely different beast to a spiced up madras. Now - I'm not saying a spiced up Madras is wrong - far from it, sounds delightful! but I personally have come to know through years of love for the Vindaloo that it to my taste buds is a bitter and hot beast with more tom puree at least (I think) than a Madras and definitely some kind of souring agent. MY fav local TA just 100 meters away also adds something like Aniseed to theirs - it is so bitter and lovely :)
If you would be good enough to suggest a recipe for me to look at that is even somewhat close to your idea of a Vindaloo, then I would appreciate that for educational purposes if nothing else.
Regards
Russell
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To me a vindaloo is just a seriously spiced up madras.
That's what the Bruce Edwards recipe for Vindaloo is - a Madras with extra chilli powder and optional potato.
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Exactly, it's like Razor said in a recent post, they only really serve one curry it's just that they vary the chilli contant and use different ingredients to make them different. Most of them are just a variation of the basic chicken curry.