Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: tempest63 on August 27, 2022, 08:28 PM
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I saw this on https://www.quora.com/Why-do-restaurant-curry-dishes-taste-better-than-home-made-curry and thought you guys may find it interesting.
Sunil Godithi; Ex-CEO Three Bowl Diners Pvt Ltd.Author has 450 answers and 629.3K answer viewsUpdated 3y
Wow!!! So many answers…
My background: worked in Mexican, American, indian and New Orleans style restaurants. Owned, managed and consulted. Did some high end catering too.
Let’s start with the myth’s.
Myth #1: Secret ingredients… no such thing. Every restaurant will use their own standardized recipe for consistency. Before standardizing them, a lot of taste testing and experimentation happens to get some uniqueness and optimum taste. That doesn’t mean any great secrets. It’s usually quantity differences more than unique ingredients. Or substitutions like cream for yogurt or vice versa.
Myth #2: High heat. This only speeds up the final assembly point in Indian cuisine. This makes a huge difference in Chinese cuisine. BUT HEAT CONTROL is a total different subject. One cannot be a good cook without mastering all the elements of heat control.
Myth #3: great great grandma’s recipe. This is 99% of the time a marketing gimmick. Even if it was someone’s grand mother’s recipe, it still needs to be deconstructed for easy on the fly service demands of a restaurant. So it’s no longer the same recipe.
Myth #4: MSG. Yes it has become a standard and overused ingredient in Indian restaurants in last 20 years or so. But I tasted great food at Indian restaurants 35 years back when it was used only in indo-Chinese cuisine. I actually think the taste profile has deteriorated after it became popular and especially cos it’s overused.
Myth #5: Other ingredients like soda / bicarbonate etc. Yes, they are used sometimes in restaurants… it’s not so much for taste but speeding up the cooking process or presentation. If done correctly, customers should not be able to tell the difference.
Now the reality.
#1: Technique, every aspect is handled by professionals, who probably spent more than a few years learning proper techniques. From selection of ingredients to cutting, to timing, to prepping and to heat control. Usually supervised by professionals who have multi decade experience under their belt. Cooking is a craft. Presentation part is the art. You can usually see this difference between any craftsman and weekend dabbler. I’m sure everyone here knows of a grandmother or aunt who can cook one curry or some special amazing dish. That comes from years and years of doing the same thing (and learning to control natural variables like vegetables, spices and meats).
#2 Slow and long cooking: most of the base sauces are cooked for multiple hours to get the depth and richness. cooking onions till they literally melt into a gravy consistency makes a huge difference. Same goes for tomatoes. Ask any Italian, they’ll tell you a good marinara sauce requires at least a couple of hours of cooking to making those tomato flavor pop. Makni sauce is just indian spicy version of marinara if you break it down to its essence. Same goes tough meats too.
#3 Temperature : one of major difference between eating at home vs a restaurant is almost a mantra in restaurants. “A la minute”. The food has to be on the customers table within a minute of cook putting it up on the pass thru counter. When you taste hot food hot, perception is more favourable. At home, your chicken curry sits in the hot box for an hour or two before you eat it. That’s another reason why a take out curry doesn’t taste as good as while eating at a restaurant. Another often repeated mantra in restaurants is “hot food hot and cold food cold”. You get the point.
#4: Fats, Heat, Marinations, Nuts (this actually should be part of technique section above. But I made it separate cos lots of people mentioned some of these points in their answers)….
Fats: Yes, restaurants use more oil or butter or various fats in their cooking. Fat is the primary career of spices used in Indian cooking. One of basic technique of getting max flavor from spices is called “Blooming”, that is, sauteeing spices in oil for few seconds. Oil is also one of fundamental heat transfer mechanisms in cooking besides steaming (heat from vapor to ingredient), boiling (liquid mostly water or stock to ingredient), grilling/baking (air to ingredient.. direct vs indirect versions). Using the right amount of oil and right technique (sauté, deep fry, poach etc) for cooking ingredients and right heat etc is what a cook learns… TO GET THE BEST FLAVOR from what ever he/she is cooking.
Everyone’s seen the 2 finger deep oil on top of curries, right? Well, there is history for that phenomenon. In the old days of no refrigeration, this was one of the health practices. That layer of oil protected the meat curry from spoiling. AND the cooking techniques evolved to bring the best taste with that much of oil… so for best taste in Indian food, you need to cook in lots of oil… THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU END UP EATING ALL THAT OIL. Historically, cooks would either drain of the excess oil to use in other ways or the serving style (ladles dug deep into a pot and pulled up full with curry such a way that there is no space for oil on top) used to naturally drain off the oil. Other personal pet peeve is fear of deep frying. If done correctly, this method results in less oil in your dish than if you pan fry same dish.
Heat: control of heat is the second most difficult thing to teach a new cook. When to cook at high and when to simmer etc. lots of answers here about how restaurants use high heat burners and that’s the secret… what they don’t talk about how much and how vigorously the chef stirs or shakes the pan and ingredients… restaurants have high heat cos they have to finish dish in under 15 mins or so. But all the shaking and stirring you see is how the cook manages the heat.
Marinations: we hear lots of talk about how long restaurants marinate their meats or kebabs. And how every cookbook author suggests marinating over night and stuff. Here’s the secret. Only super popular selling items are marinated for long duration in restaurants. In catering orders, yes most cooks marinate for a while. But in restaurants, maybe tandoori chicken is marinated but all the other 100 variety of kebabs are not marinated for 36 hours in super secret sauces. The technique used is called double marination. First marinade is basically simple essential ingredients like salt, and ginger garlic. Then when the specific order comes, they mix that specific spices in a little yogurt and marinate the meat for maybe 1 hr (for fast moving items) to 0 hrs (for rare or slow moving items).
There is related technique for par cooking meats so they can be cooked within that 15–20 min window. example mutton, pressure cook with salt, pepper and ginger garlic. And keep ready. Brining is another such technique. If this part of prep is done correctly, you get juicy, falling off the bone type of chicken or lamb in your curries. If done incorrectly, we get dry and cardboardy meat pcs.
Nuts: restaurants use a variety of thickening agents. Like ground pastes of cashews, almonds, and other nuts. Slurries of besan, maida, corn flour etc. That is not a secret cos traditional Indian food techniques include them. Most home cooks use them too. Again difference could be the skill of the cook.
Last point is, time factor. Most home cooks skip few key steps to save time and then wonder why the dish doesn’t taste as good.
To pull together all the points above, let’s take a look at making of Hyderabadi biryani.
Point 1: Professionals NEVER ever cook without “Birista” , that is , deep fried onions. Most home cooks skip this step or don’t fry the onions the right way.
Point 2: professionals slightly vary their supporting ingredients based on meat they are using. Ex: meat tenderizer and more mint for lamb. Chicken may get a little extra dose of fat whether in form of oil, butter, koya etc. maybe rose water for chicken but kewra water for mutton. Maybe saunf powder in chicken vs extra powdered cardamom powder for mutton… things like that.
Point 3: make sure there is enough liquid in the pan. Pros add ghee mixed with hot water, milk with saffron etc on top of rice before sealing. Getting the right quantity to add is the skill.
Point 4: pros add whole lot more chopped mint and coriander leaves. Usually this 2 times what normal home cook adds.
Point 5: once sealed, cook on high heat till steam and pressure develops before starting the “dum”. And then the experience kicks in to know for how long to do the dum. Generally pros handle large quantities most of the time, so even they screw up when you ask them to cook small quantity. Most common mistake by home cooks I see are not cooking till full steam generation and then “dum” for proper time
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Another reply on the same site.
Madhav Kushwaha
Chef At his own KitchenAuthor has 247 answers and 1.6M answer views3y
Well as a foodie I had this question for a long time in my mind. I have always tried cooking everything I ever ate at any restaurant by myself. But the taste was never even nearby to the restaurant dishes.
So, when I came back Nepal I found out one of my friends was in the restaurant business. Luckily, he invited me to his restaurant for the lunch and the food was damn tasty and I decided to ask him the question which had been running in my mind for a long time. He told me about some of the techniques he uses at his restaurant to enhance the taste of the food.
Here are the few reasons which he told me and some acquired by myself that make a restaurant curry dishes or any other dishes taste better than homemade.
British Thermal Unit (BTU) of Stove:
The gas stove which we use at home has BTU of somewhere around 10000 to maximum 20000 and the food gets cooked slowly.
While the gas stove at the restaurant has BTU ranging from 50000 to 150000 which emerges high heat and foods get cooked fast and sooner. At high heat, the spices taste gets enhanced.
2. Combination of Spices
Whenever we cook any curry or any other dishes at home, most of the time we use the same regular spices.
But at the restaurant, they use the combination of spices to enhance the flavor of the dishes. Also, they have some unique combination of spices for the dishes which rarely anyone tries at home.
3. Use of Taste Enhancers
It is a fact which cannot be denied by any restaurant owner that they don’t use it. Almost every restaurant uses taste enhancers to enhance the taste of the dishes they serve you. Some common taste enhancers are Monosodium Glutamate and Acid’s Sodium salt which makes the taste of any dish finger licking tasty.
It is one of the major factors the dishes at a restaurant tastes better than homemade dishes.
4. They are cooked by Professionals
Last but not least, the dishes we eat at the restaurant are prepared by the professionals and we all will agree to this.
Whatever the ingredient or taste enhancer one might use, but there comes a big difference in anything done by professional and a normal person.
The professional chefs are trained to prepare the dishes at a restaurant in a specific manner with the exact amount of ingredients. They know very well when to keep the ingredients and how to cook them.
Hence, it brings a big difference in the food cooked at the restaurant than at home.
These were some reasons which I found out of my curiosity in the process of learning to cook and try different restaurant dishes at home…
Hope you like it…
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Thanks for a good morning read T63, but;
Post 1 Myth #2 and post 2 point 1 are in direct contradiction.
I've never used, or seen a recipe in BIR or traditional Indian, that uses MSG. Chinese for sure.
What combinations of spice have we never seen in Indian Hotel style which is the basis of restaurant cooking? There are professionally trained chefs demonstrating the gravies online.
Consistency isn't difficult.
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Yes this is written by an American and has not much bearing on BIR cooking here in the UK. In particular his assertion that food tastes better when it's served after a minute of being cooked and is not as good when home delivered because it's cooler by that time. BS. With curry, eating it straight away when it's too hot overloads the taste buds, so letting it cool actually makes it tastier. Not impressed.
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This thread seems an appropriate place to continue the conversation.
Santa, I don't think we're being duped by the restaurants and T/As cooking large batches of dishes the previous day, although some T/As that use warmed bain marie style presentation and service may very well do this. It just seems that restaurants are able to obtain that fully developed flavour and aroma on the spot. They all probably do prep either in the morning or the day before or earlier. While we should probably try to avoid turning this into the missing 5% or secret ingredient discussion, it would appear obvious that something is going on. I don't like to quantify it as 5%. I don't believe there is a missing secret ingredient.
You could see the kitchen in a bain marie service T/A I used to frequent a decade ago where the front of shop staff would call out for more of a particular dish and the cooks would start to prepare it. I suppose it's possible they were just reheating, and I can't be sure. Most restaurants though, I'd suspect are cooking dishes on demand. There'd be too much waste otherwise. No doubt there are different business models.
Robbo, I do think that sensory overload (inured as you put it) is a contributing factor. I experience it but it isn't the cause. I've cooked some really good dishes (and some shockers) and I'm still convinced that the dishes cooked and prepared in business settings are somehow extraordinarily different. Even my good BIR style dishes are better the next day, and I often feel that they still aren't up to par in comparison.
I doubt we'll ever know. We now have people (industry insiders) giving us the picture on YouTube like we never had 10 years ago, but it hasn't really changed this common feeling that still niggles away at me.
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I have to agree about the secret ingredient not existing. We’ve all seen multiple videos shot inside British Indian restaurants and that chefs use the spices we all know too. I have to think there’s something in the heat of the stove but I suspect most of the ‘real-deal-ness’ comes from simple technique and timing. Look at all the videos of chefs just scooping spices from overhead bins with their chef spoon. Compare that with me using carefully leveled measuring spoons. I’ve never been inside a restaurant kitchen but, probably as with any dish, it’s better when cooked by a chef, no matter how talented the amateur.
Robbo
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probably as with any dish, it’s better when cooked by a chef, no matter how talented the amateur.
I would say "often, but not always". My chicken with chilli & black bean sauce is said by all members of my wife's extended (Chinese/Vietnamese) family to be better than any restaurant version, yet I ate a (cold) fried egg cooked by our head chef recently and, even cold, it was better than any egg I have ever fried.
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** Phil.
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Chefs throwing in un-measured amounts of spice scooped up onto the end of a chefs spoon just illustrates (to me anyway) non-critical volumetric control. It matters less exactly how much you put in with any precision than it does which combination you use, the timing and other factors like avoiding scorching etc. Obviously, there are limitations to this statement. Take for example the use of spice masala or pastes and timing. If you go about cooking a whole curry dish and then right at the end throw in a bit of spice, you won't have a good dish. If you add the spice to frying onions, garlic, ginger etc, and cook it with oil, tomato and / or gravy, those flavours will create the curry to which you then add, or in which you then cook, the main ingredients. The difference will be chalk and cheese.
I don't think it is difficult to emulate the operations of the video chefs as much of it is in real time or with very little editing. We can all pretty well copy these procedures, see how much spice they use and when they add ingredients, when they adjust heat, how long to cook between stages and so on. The dishes produced are usually pretty good and I'd imagine a fair replica of the presented recipe. Sometimes it's easy to see that the listed ingredients say 1 tsp of X spice when you can tell that there is actually more being used. What is frustrating is when they show you something and tell you that in the restaurant kitchen for served meals, they do it differently or use a different ingredient which isn't disclosed.
This may well be a thing more evident over here but "bought" curry from an "Indian" food outlet usually always seems to be richer and more flavoursome and aromatic than anything I usually produce at home. I thoroughly enjoy my dishes, but they just aren't the same. Sometimes I think to myself, that's it! What did you do different? Then I doubt whether it is really better or not. I know I'm not alone with this.
One possibility could be the quality / freshness of the spices they are able to obtain due to their higher turnover. Perhaps buying commercial quantity packages is key to obtaining the best quality and freshest spices. I guess you could go and buy a set of new (fresh???) spice packs and do side by side comparison with what you already have in the spice cupboard. Cook the exact same dish with old and new spice to see if it changes much.
Phil, I think anybody can have a dish that they've perfected if they spend the time and are passionate about it. For me it's a pasta bake that my kids call Lasagna, but it isn't Lasagna as it uses small pasta instead of sheets. I have done it with sheets but it's just better when I do it my way and I usually use pasta shells or spirals. The original came from a recipe I've since lost but it was based upon a home-made Napolitana sauce and something similar to Macaroni Cheese. Very messy in the kitchen with 3 big dirty pots, the baking dishes and utensils for cooking, but my family love it. I just do it by feel now and it never fails.
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If you go about cooking a whole curry dish and then right at the end throw in a bit of spice, you won't have a good dish. If you add the spice to frying onions, garlic, ginger etc, and cook it with oil, tomato and / or gravy, those flavours will create the curry to which you then add, or in which you then cook, the main ingredients. The difference will be chalk and cheese.
What about the balti paste recipe (link) you posted recently? I thought you said it's good for improving a dish lacking in flavour. Don't you add it at the end, a bit like garam masala? If so, the paste will end up semi-raw. Thank you for the paste link, by the way. I thought it looked good and it's something else I intend to try.
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If you go about cooking a whole curry dish and then right at the end throw in a bit of spice, you won't have a good dish. If you add the spice to frying onions, garlic, ginger etc, and cook it with oil, tomato and / or gravy, those flavours will create the curry to which you then add, or in which you then cook, the main ingredients. The difference will be chalk and cheese.
What about the balti paste recipe (link) you posted recently? I thought you said it's good for improving a dish lacking in flavour. Don't you add it at the end, a bit like garam masala? If so, the paste will end up semi-raw. Thank you for the paste link, by the way. I thought it looked good and it's something else I intend to try.
Actually no George. I've cooked a few lamb curries from supposedly good recipe books that have been less than expected. What I do is fry out a bit of balti paste in my multi / pressure cooker and then toss the lamb curry in, under pressure for 15 - 20 minutes. That usually fixes it.
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I have to agree about the secret ingredient not existing. We’ve all seen multiple videos shot inside British Indian restaurants and that chefs use the spices we all know too.
You're right, there are many videos around now, but they represent the lacklustre curries from the nineties onwards. And, yes, anyone can replicate those from recipes on this forum so there's no secret ingredient. But compared to the curries I had in the very late seventies and early eighties, well the 90s onwards curries are poor in comparison, lacking both the aroma and unique flavour they used to have back then. It isn't just me saying this by the way. My friends from back in that time all agree and bemoan the generally awful standard of today's curries and long for that missing taste and aroma.
Now you're right in the sense that there are no literal secret ingredients but that doesn't mean there are not ingredients that were used back then that have fallen out of use and so we are unaware of, which makes them sort of secret ingredients. It's no coincidence that curry quality dropped from the early nineties on just as a proliferation of curry houses occurred and the increased competition forced budget cutting so as to remain competitive and stay in business. Something had to give and unfortunately it was the quality of curry.
To be honest, it's somewhat galling to have to read with regularity someone on this forum claiming that there's no missing 5% or whatever when they mostly don't even qualify to comment as their curry eating experience only goes back two or three decades. Think of it this way, say your only experience of eating cheese is those Frankenstein American burger cheese slices. So that's your reference level. But I've eaten a quality extra-mature cheddar cheese which, for arguments sake, let's say is no longer available. How do I convince you that there was a better cheese and convey to you just how lacklustre that burger cheese is in comparison?
So I'll tell you, as fact, that from experience there is either a missing ingredient or ingredients, or a missing technique, or some combination of the two, to obtain curries as they used to be. And, no, it ain't beer!
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One possibility could be the quality / freshness of the spices they are able to obtain due to their higher turnover. Perhaps buying commercial quantity packages is key to obtaining the best quality and freshest spices. I guess you could go and buy a set of new (fresh???) spice packs and do side by side comparison with what you already have in the spice cupboard. Cook the exact same dish with old and new spice to see if it changes much.
The right way to do it would be to buy the spices whole and as fresh as possible and grind them just before making the curry. I did this some forty years ago now and made a side by side comparison with pre-ground but fresh spices and I couldn't detect any distinct difference in the finished curries so never fresh-ground spices again. And really, as long as you're not using spices that are months old, I just don't think freshness is an issue.
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I agree the takeaways today seem to pale in comparison to how I remember my first dishes back in the UK in the late 70’s and 80s. My dad introduced me to chicken madras, keema pilau rice, onion salad and popadoms at the age of 10 in 1977. (I’m 54, been eating curry more than a couple of decades). I never was disappointed in a curry in my early years but when I visit the UK these days, I often get a vindaloo I think is just ‘meh’. It’s doubly disappointing because I only visit once a year (not in the past almost 3, thank you Covid), and I really, REALLY look forward to BIR and to have it less than anticipated is a killer.
Indian dishes will always be a staple for me, but my days as Indian(a) Jones and the Lost Whatever are long gone. I just accept that I can cook a decent dish and occasionally, very occasionally I get a result that could’ve come from a takeaway.
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Well, I have to say that last night was one of those rare occasions when everything just fell into place, and I was able to produce a first-class dish. I did nothing out of the ordinary, followed a recipe and then my instinct and the result was superb. Nothing missing on this one. It's happened before, albeit rarely and I still scratch my head and think, how does this happen.
I cooked Chicken Tikka Masala using Misty Ricardo's Volume 1 recipe with no exceptions or omissions aside from not using red food colouring and the very last addition was my own instinct. The Chicken Tikka I used was the last of the Sunil Singh Chicken Tikka I'd cooked in the Tandoor a few days ago and the base gravy was MDB's Balti gravy. Once the dish was fully prepared and on "keep warm" under a lid, I sprinkled it lightly with new fresh Kasoori Methi. The finished dish was lacking nothing that I'd normally hope for in a restaurant dish. I doubt it will be better today.
Now I just need to find out what it was in cooking this dish that I'm not doing in the others. Is it the almond and coconut meal?
Santa, I agree with you about the spices. I was just trying to consider what could be contributing factors. I've taken to grinding my own Cumin and Coriander seeds and I find that I prefer it to the fine powder.