Curry Recipes Online
Curry Photos & Videos => Curry Videos => Topic started by: vinotinto on March 30, 2010, 01:40 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/video/2010/mar/30/birmingham-balti-triangle (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/video/2010/mar/30/birmingham-balti-triangle)
May find this useful. Despite the journalist copying the cooking with the chef to guide him, he still thinks the chef's is better - so technique playing it part
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Now that is a very interesting video indeed. Thanks very much for finding and sharing.
Best
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"tomato powder"....interesting....
Andy Munro is supposed to be a bit of a Balti guru I understand.
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Did I miss something or did they not put any base/gravy in it?
Confused
CoR
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How weird, my 8 ball pool partner is called Andy Munro :)
I'm not suprised, the chef's balti was better, his technique was far superior IMO. I don't think the the guy handled the pan very well, it was obviously too hot for him (as it would have been for me too)
I bet he would have done much better with a wok!
Good link though :)
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We need someone like Andy Munro on this forum as we are sadly lacking in Balti expertise.
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I wish id not seen this link now, i just read the replies to the video and am now homesick lol.
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Did I miss something or did they not put any base/gravy in it?
Yes, they seem to have missed it out (despite the huge pot of it sitting there)
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I think the restaurant were keen not to give away too many secrets!
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take me home too.
u learn something everyday - i'd not realised that they actually cook the dish in the serving bowl - despite seeing with my own eyes that chef must have asbestos hands.
definitely interesting the variation in taste between the 2 dishes - clearly technique/experience has it's part 2 play.
interesting that the chef seemed to purposely set fire to the onion. i think the chef then adds more oil from the tin on the stove - would make sense as the fire is burning the oil off.
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the more i think about this the more things don't add up - mainly the cooking in the balti pan.
i have steel pan similar to balti dish but a bit thicker material - cast steel as opposed to pressed steel.
i can't keep the base of the pan black ie seasoned. when i add base this "deglazes" the bottom and sides part way up (essential to the taste for me too). so the bottom and lower sides are always metal colour. all the balti dishes i've seen after eating from them are black. if i re season the pan it's soon metal colour again.
on the flaming of the onions this happens now and again but i try to avoid it knowing that the oil will be lost "too early and too much". i've also not detected any real difference in taste when the pan flambes. i'll give it a try though for a longer period like in the video (and specifically for the onion cooking) and then add extra oil to make good what's lost.
i do follow the practise now of adding the base in stages (chef spoons) as opposed to ladle fulls and believe this is important in keeping the pan heat up.
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Is an item I've been looking for. I'm sure the major stores sell it here in the US but I've not seen it as yet. This is why I found that bit interesting frankly. It's come up in a lot of searches, mostly to do with traditional cooking but at odd times with restaurant fair too.
For me anyway this could be the final chink in my Vindaloo spice compound with onions. Of course until I get some and try it I won't really know.
"tomato powder"....interesting....
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Mikka,
I'm sure that I have heard paprika decribed as tomato powder. I know it's not, but I have heard it decribed as that.
Ray
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That's a realy good point Ray.
When I open a jar of Paprika I get some of what I'm looking for. Do you remember the Hula Hoops Tomato version?
It's that kind of thing for me? It's so strong but other places seem to have it in differing levels. I've tried Paprika with various things, it could be it but it isn't for me at least. I'll go look this weekend and nab someone, drag them around until I get a packet. ;D
Not tried it of course. Hopefully I'll have some results, I'm really on the nail but one more thing. Exciting stuff cooking isn't it.
Thanks Ray.
Mikka,
I'm sure that I have heard paprika decribed as tomato powder. I know it's not, but I have heard it decribed as that.
Ray
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Tomato powder:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tomato-powder.htm (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tomato-powder.htm)
http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/tomato-powder (http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/tomato-powder)
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i tried out the chef's method of allowing the pan to flame and leaving it to go out naturally.
i made 3 off curries and feel i'm going to have to explore this a tad more. it raises more questions than it answers.
the oil on it's own won't flame - it only flames when water is added. i could not get it to flame just by adding chopped onion - i needed to add water and woosh.
curry 1 and 3 flamed much better than curry 2 - all 3 were on par but curry 2 was a league up having smokiness.
my previous experience suggests that allowing the pan to flame has no effect on the taste - which is not what the video suggests (i think maybe - i'm reading too much into the video perhaps).
what was unusual was that i was not aiming for smokiness on these 3 off curries (ashoka balti butter masala) as they are in the category of CTM/Korma which don't need it (the ingredient plays a bigger part in the taste of the dish).
i'm going to have to do a repeat to better understand what's going on.
the one thing i did notice was that the onion cooked out much better (easier - i used medium cut onion slices which normally would have taken a tad more cooking than fine chopped that i normally use) - i think this is perhaps down the the intense steam generated at the same time as the smoke when the pan flames.
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does anyone know what happens when salt is added to onion. clearly water forms on the surface of the onion - has this been drawn from the onion itself or from the atmosphere.
also does anyone have any BIR info on whether they do "treat" chopped onion in some way before using at dish frying stage ie salted or par boil as examples.
i've tried salt and salt+lemon juice leaving the onion overnight. the salt seamed to improve the cooking. the salt+lemon juice did not seem right in terms of taste. i need to try in curry to be certain.
i managed for the 1 st time to get a pic whilst cooking (i did not matter if the onion burnt). the onion + salt certainly gave flame everytime i added.
Onion + Salt Overnight (onion actually has slight coating of water)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5ba636711fef92be0436f33f5ca12c2d.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#5ba636711fef92be0436f33f5ca12c2d.jpg)
Salted Onion cooking
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/236804fb0c86f382f83df3de3b330013.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#236804fb0c86f382f83df3de3b330013.jpg)
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Did I miss something or did they not put any base/gravy in it?
You could see it in the final dish but any mention and footage was obviously edited out! How predictable. I wonder what else they left out.
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I bet he would have done much better with a wok!
I bet there's not a single 'Balti' chef in the UK who actually cooks n a small little balti dish. It would never be practical. They all cook in a standard (large) pan and just transfer it to a balti dish for serving and theatrics.
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Hi
Jerry, salting the onions draws water from the onion in the same way as with tomato.
Regards
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Jerry, salting the onions draws water from the onion in the same way as with tomato.
Spot on, which is why salt is used to cure and/or preserve meat, fish etc.
I would doubt that chopped onion is treated in such a manor in the restaurants. All the flavour and sugars are locked in that moisture.
PS Are you cooking in your garage?
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commis/Axe,
many thanks for reply on the salting. as u've probably know i can't really put my finger on where my gap is - i'm tending to think it's down to a need for recipe refinement. but of course i'm interested in all things that i've not come across or would never of thought of - Axe's garlic in tom puree is a real good example. it's the sort of thing a BIR would do without realising that it's a critical process.
when i saw this video i was surprised that the chef allowed the flame to continue. it's one thing doing it for show but another when u are cooking. i was also surprised at the timing - after the onion had gone in. my pan flames only after the addition of water in some way - usually base (i add a small amount with the spices). if i was to be picky i'd also say that my chopped onions are not quite cooked as good as BIR (too firm).
2 possibilities came to mind from the video - BIR coat the onion in water or apply salt. the coating being needed as onion dries out relatively quickly after being prepared. i'm still not sure which or even if either of them is right. i know the salting sounds wacky but it did cause consistent flaming but so does the coating. the salted onion after cooking did taste closer to BIR. i don't think it's the flame but the stream coming from the water seems to give the onion cooking a head start.
i'm going to try both the salting (only very small amount needed - i used pinch for 2 off onion) and the coating next time i have base.
it just seem's to be a bit of mileage hear for me.
ps Axe, yes been using garage for a while now
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Hi Jerry,
Just another observation re salting onions, it makes them extremely difficult to caramelize them!
Ray :)
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I didn't know that Ray, interesting observation.
Jerry, as with alot of things perhaps the answer is a little more obvious. A little like the OB Demo, the onions are prepared way ahead of service and sit for oxidising for a while. This will help to soften the onion up, prior to it being used. Also, when you chop your onions and leave them to sit, break the layers up to allow the air to get in between them.
The only other thing I can think of is the onion itself. I know the IG buy onion in 25kg Netted Sacks. They are your basic market onion and fairly young in growth.
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Ive read somewhere that if you add salt to onions it stops them browning too, but it would be good for drawing out moisture i suppose, also it helps them soften faster when cooking.
Ive tried alsorts to speed up caremlising onions, nuking em in the microwave for a few mins helps, but it always ends up with a long slow affair in the frying pan.
Also if you add pepper to frying onions it makes them sweeter, strange i know.
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The problem with onion is that contains an awful lot of natural sugars that can burn very easily if cooked on a high heat. So they take a long time to caramelise properly.
I remember watching one of the BBC2 Open University Cooking Chemistry programs about making Onion Marmalade etc. They described all the processes that take place by adding certain ingredients like vinegar which help to change the composition of the sugars etc. I can't remember it exactly but it was very interesting.
Perhaps the answer is as simple as a squeeze of lemon over the onion. Being an acid it might help to both soften and draw on the natural sugar in the onion. I know Lemon is used to stop some fruits from osidising when prepared, such as apple. Maybe it works in a similar way for onion?
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Thanks, I really enjoyed that! Tomato powder eh? I have to play with that!
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Tomato powder eh? I have to play with that!
I don't think it'll make much difference BB. This was discussed not long after the forum started if my memory serves!
Haldi (Pete) was told by one of the takeaways that he got a recipe from that they used tomato powder, but we decided they probably meant paprika because it sounded odd.
Well perhaps it was tomato powder after all!
Anyway I still think it's one more unnecessary twist in the BIR tale.
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Perhaps they use tomato powder in place of tomato paste/puree? Google returns some interesting descriptions for tomato powder.
http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/tomato-powder (http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/tomato-powder)
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the onions are prepared way ahead of service and sit for oxidising for a while.
Axe,
i take it from this that IG don't do anything to their's. do they cover them as i've noticed they go dry quickly in open air.
ps i'm not looking to caramelise - just cook through enough to leave a tad crunch - just like in the BIR dish. it maybe that i just need to cook for longer - i was not sure how true the 7 min cook in the video was but i currently cook in 5 mins. i also think they cut finer and more consistently at ~3mm c/w with more like 5 mm for myself.
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Jerry it might be that you have too much heat in the pan. 2 mins cooking might be all the difference you need. It will certainly make alot of difference to the onion.
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Axe,
i think the heat is right (gut feeling what my local TA use). what it would mean though is that the base is not as thin as it should be. going to be quite interesting as i intend to try out a few of the ideas when i next have base - salted, splash of water to coat, leave to sit, my std cut & use.
gut feeling is that my local TA generally cook in 5 mins. the majority of maliks dishes using onion are cooked in 3 to 4 mins with only a few at 6 mins and these appear to be when they've forgotten about them.
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Axe,
just a thought.
just been watching Dipuraja's biryani video. in this he heats the oil and adds fresh onion - no flame. exactly what i would find happen if i did same. the flaming must perhaps be down to a balti difference perhaps.
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Looking at the video in this topic I notice a couple of things. The pan is sittign pre-heating on a low flame. Prior to the onion going in there is no smoke from any oil. The onion is added and a lot of oil smoke is seen. Does this suggest the onions are soaked in oil to start or is that they just react with the very hot pan and oil in it before hand.
The one thing you do understand, is that the pan is very hot and holding alot of residual heat. Once he places the bowl of onion back and returns to the Balti dish, he stirs the onion in the oil and the flame is turned up full. The dish does not flame until this point. This is due to the oil vapour being ignited by the flames licking over the side of the pan.
You also notice that in the reporters attempt the flame is left low all the way through. This is important to note as the dish only flares when he adds the tomato and he tilts the pan away to stop being splashed by the spiting fat, which then flares in contact with the flame.
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Axe,
what i've experienced is that the oil on it's own is very difficult to set fire too - even when it's really smoking. put a little water in the pan and whoosh the flames are instant.
if u put fresh cut onion in - it won't flame. let some salt do it's work or refresh them in water and u get this flaming everytime u add to the pan - even at much lower oil temp.
it may well be that this is a "nothing" on the BIR trail. i'm going to give it a little bit more of a try when i have base just to make sure though. if most BIR don't do anything to their chopped onion then it must be just a balti thing - maybe gives the onion a tad more of a fried taste.
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Hi SS
We need someone like Andy Munro on this forum as we are sadly lacking in Balti expertise.
I have sent Andy an email, asking if he would care to join the forum. He has his own website http://www.balti-birmingham.co.uk/home (http://www.balti-birmingham.co.uk/home)
I will let you all know on his response (if I get one)
Ray :)
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I have sent Andy an email, asking if he would care to join the forum.
Good stuff Ray. I hope he joins as it would be great to get some balti tips.
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yeah being a brummie baltis are where its at
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I've asked at 2 off Asian stores about "tomato powder" - both said it's what they call paprika.
i haven't read the previous posts but it's a dead end for me in terms of BIR.
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Hi Jerry,
I've also heard of paprika being described as tomato powder, I know and you know, that it isn't but a lot of asian cooks do refer to paprika this way!
Ray :)
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i gave this "setting fire to the onion" a bit more of a go last week. it was a bit disjointed for me as my main focus was on comparing Dipuraja's "all in" cooking method with the hot method.
gut feeling is there is no mileage to be had in further investigating onion flaming. we could not tell any difference in the final dish - onions flamed c/w onions fried hot but no flame.
i did find that if u coat the onion with too much water "a splash" the pan won't flame for quite some time (i guess the fire service could have told me that). this suggests to me that salt is used by the BIR in the video. the salting produces a slight coating of liquid on the surface of the onion - which does flame very easily.
why they would do it is quite baffling.