Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Malc. on March 30, 2010, 12:36 PM
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Seems we keep discussing the idea of that 'missing something' in different topics so I thought i'd start a topic for it.
So, what is that missing something that we all keep mentioning?
The idea of it being a flavour that can be added from a spice jar is just not something I could I agree with. Infact, quite the opposite. The recent IG Demo on the OB is proof positive of this and suggests that the missing something is more likely to be a process of some kind. Of course we do have to be using the right ingredients to start with, but identifying how they are put together is the key.
Some of us have been told by chefs that you can not produce this at home. This also lends itself to the theory of process. Referring back to the OB Demo, the consistency and appearance of the onion prior to cooking, was due only to the process in which it had been worked. 15 KG of onion being churned over and over in a large pot, gently massaged the onion. By the time it was ready for cooking it had become soft and pliable but retained most of its structure. Then add to that the first cook, for speed and bulk production.
You simply won't see that in any recipe for an Onion Bhaji and no chef would ever consider it to be written into a recipe if asked to write it. They would simply break the recipe down to a quantity more suited for a home kitchen. The essential processes now missing, the finished result, a Bhaji quite different to that of the restaurants. Of course, now we have identified that, we are able to produce the same bhaji at home.
So, in my mind, the objectives are to establish just what ingredients exist in the BIR kitchen and how they are processed.
I have spice cupboard full of authentic and traditional spices, but alot of these seem to be devoid in the BIR kitchen. I then find other spices that are missing, such as the Panch Puram, Shahi Jeera and Javitri and I am sure I still have others yet to identify.
The processes include the much talked about base, the spice mix, garlic & ginger paste, tomato puree, pre-cooked meats and veg and the final cooking, etc. Some of which I had been aware of prior to coming here, some not. But essentially, they all come together to deliver that 'something missing' that we keep talking about.
Given the scale and number of processes involved, is it really feasible to achieve this at home?
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Axe, mate, if you look through the forum you will see that there have been so many similar threads generated over the past 6 years.
I'm sorry to say that you're unlikely to uncover anything new by raising the topic yet again.
The only real way forward is not for us to continually speculate and throw in all manner of contradictory opinions (which is what they are) but for us to capture real observations, of real BIR chefs, in real (top notch) traditional BIRs. Otherwise, we will continue to run around in circles for time immemorial....
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I think IG is our best bet yet for moving forwards. We have established they cook good curries and they seem very happy to share. We also know exactly what is in their spice mix. Now we need to know what goes into their base sauce and then how they cook a basic curry (like a Madras).
To do this you will need to grill them down on every little detail:
What is their proprtion of garlic to ginger in their gg paste. Do they just use fresh blended with a bit of water or is anything else added (i.e. oil, or use roasted garlic, or some spicing).
Tomato puree - exatly which brand do they use? Do they do anything to it before it goes into the curry (i.e. simmered with spices, watered down - if so what %)
Pre-cooked chicken - how do they do this? Any spices cooked with the chicken can impact the final dish.
I'm sure I have missed out some important bits. If anyone can think of any please post. Am I right they are happy for you to go back soon for another demo?
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I think IG is our best bet yet for moving forwards. We have established they cook good curries
Have we Chris? How so?
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Forgive me CA but I was under the impression that there was a need to discuss it. I've seen comments in quite a few recent topics that suggest this. I started a new topic to prevent Razor's thread being derailed.
The idea of the topic is to address the processes being used in the BIR, not secret ingredients. This is something that I have learnt will make a difference to both flavour and texture in our recipes.
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Axe , Possibly one of the problems is whether we would all agree that for example a Curry made at your T/A has ' The Taste ' and even if we followed exactly a recipe from them we would all have different views on the flavour.
I think we all have our own idea as to what we want a good Curry to taste like but again it probably varies from person to person so unless we all send out samples to one another of our favourite T/A Curry I don't know how we can ever find that 'Holy Grail '.
I do believe you need the right Base Sauce plus fresh Spices and fresh Garlic / Ginger to give you the best chance.
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Yes, I do understand, differing palettes is always going to be a problem. I certainly don't want to flog a horse for the sake of doing so. I know too well, how a tedious a repetitive subject can be. Especially when there is no clear definitive answer.
One of the things I face coming to this forum, is trying to wade through all the information. First, you have to find it and then you have to make sense of it whilst clicking on all the various links within the topic. It can be quite overwhelming at times.
What I am hoping to glean from members, is their experience of BIR Kitchen Techniques in advance of my next Kitchen Demo. With a better understanding, I can cut to the quick any questions I have for the chef. As Chris mentions above, pertinent questions can really help and I must thank Chris for advice given previously.
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I think the best posts are as you have done Axe spending time in a BIR kitchen , your Bhaji Demo was spot on ;) we need more of these ' kitchen visits ' and forum members including me ) need to be more inquisitive when they go to their local T/A and even ask outright if you can watch your Curry being cooked , I did and he said ' Yes :o ) going into detail like you have with the Bhaji's is far better than all the guess work and the same questions being asked over and over again ::)
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Well as always, I will endeavour to do what I can on that front. :)
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even ask outright if you can watch your Curry being cooked , I did and he said ' Yes :o )
The takeaways I frequent still look at me as if I'm going to rob them! :'( ;D
Asking for a kitchen demo just doesn't seem doable.
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even ask outright if you can watch your Curry being cooked , I did and he said ' Yes :o )
The takeaways I frequent still look at me as if I'm going to rob them! :'( ;D
Asking for a kitchen demo just doesn't seem doable.
Perhaps it's cuz you look like a mad axe man ;)
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I thought like you Secret Santa, that my local would never let me in the kitchen to watch, but i asked and they couldn't have been happier, personally i think its because they dont have anything to hide and want to show that.
The most important thing i have discovered in my search for a proper ruby murry cooked at home is that you seem to have to use a lot more oil/ghee than you would usually and then you dont serve the food until the oil has seperated from the dish.
I was wondering if this could be an indication of the spices having reached the correct level of cooking?
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The takeaways I frequent still look at me as if I'm going to rob them! :'( ;D
Asking for a kitchen demo just doesn't seem doable.
That's more to do with you being a man of dubious aspect and sorry footwear Satan :P ;D
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That's more to do with you being a man of dubious aspect and sorry footwear Satan :P ;D
A man of sorry aspect and dubious footwear would be closer to the mark! ;D
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Axe,
i feel we don't do enough of this. there are clearly members who aren't interested and that's up to them.
the processes are as u say a key part to this jigsaw and as far as i've read we don't have any common concensus. i have no problem with what others preferences are - it's about putting all our thoughts down and letting the individual members be the judge of how useful it is to them.
it also matters not what an individual places food tastes like - it's what u can learn from it that counts. it's often more important to know what not to do too.
i'm happy to privately discuss this further and also equally happy to start at the 1st process and take each in turn.
the trouble is u have no measure of how interested the greater membership of the forum are. i certainly believe some are only interested in the answer and not the journey. i know that just relying on an answer is not enough - it's like having a map with the edge u want torn off.
it's a key point for me as i now find myself posting less due to this growing perception rightly or wrongly.
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Im really intersted in all the cookery processes relating to curries, equally as interested in the spices and ingredients used, so interested that i cooked and ate 7 balti's in 8 days quite recently, and the answer i got from this was that, i had a couple of eureka moments, 2 of the 7 curries had everything i was looking for. The other 5 were just bloody good meals.
From this i deduced that if i cooked curries everyday, or worked as a curry chef in a restaurant i would with constant practice, be able to produce a wicked balti most of the time but occasionaly i would do something slightly different and the result wouldn't be as good.
The opposite if you will of what happens to me now, occasionally i make a bang on curry because i hit on the right techniques/heat and spices, and the rest of the time i miss something.
Ive reached the stage now that i know, whatever i do, the curry i produce will be bloody lovely either way. So ive given up looking, i simply cant cook and eat enough curries to become perfect, so will settle for enjoying the experience and being happier when i have a eureka moment.
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The average chef in a BIR or T/A must do between, say, 50 and 100 dishes per shift which is probably all I do on average in a year so it's no wonder they get the techniques off to a T while we end up striving to find the elusive 'secret'.
Regards
CoR
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Jerry, you make some good points about most members not being involved in the journey. Just wanting the end result. How many members are there now?
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My reservation is that it will probably be less of a journey and more like another tedious trip around the same old block.....
I suggest you at least check these threads before you embark upon your journey:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3951.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3951.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2220.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2220.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=200.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=200.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3634.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3634.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4209.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4209.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=191.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=191.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3183.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3183.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1484.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1484.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4011.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4011.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=939.0.... (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=939.0....)
...I am sure there are plenty more.....
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My reservation is that it will probably be less of a journey and more like another tedious trip around the same old block.....
CA,
i with u 100% on this - the last we want is to end up as we normally do.
we would need to approach in a different manner - just present our individual thoughts and discuss them accepting that we "collectively" won't agree but at least the options are presented for members to use as they wish. u're ability to sumarise the findings is all we need and a bit of tolerance.
to avoid the usual round robin on how we should approach - i'm happy to set down my thoughts on a particular process which others can add and comment on for u to sumarise.
it's got to be work a go.
for me what we are looking to achieve is the envelope to each process that is derived from our collective experiences.
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which others can add and comment on for u to sumarise
Hmmmmm, I'm not too sure about that Jerry! :o
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CA,
i too share u're trepidations. what we need to do is to draw out all members views or at the very least gain their thoughts on what is put forward as best approach (closest to BIR).
this for me and i'm sure for most is checking for gaps and making sure i/we have not unwittingly fallen into any bad practices or missed a trick.
on the method for identifying and detailing the "processes" i'm thinking starting at the end ie cooked curry and working back applying, "what, when, why and how".
i'm realising it's not going to be easy. cooked curry gives me:
1) sauce
2) texture
3) spice
4) meat
some ingredients fit easily into a category but i'm struggling on where to put tom puree as an example - is it to do with sauce or spice. same for g/g paste. i think i'd put them both in the sauce category but i'm not sure.
but i guess this is what it's all about - improving our understanding of the why. my thinking being i feel we know the what and the when and knowing more of the why should define the how.
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Perhaps you should be rather thinking more in terms of (BIR):
1) Taste?
2) Smell?
3) Appearance (colour and texture)?
Tomato (fresh, paste, puree, powder, pasatta, or whatever), in my opinion, gives colour and taste.
Garlic/ginger, in my opinion, gives taste and smell.
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CA,
i'll have a bit of a go at the method and see if it's likely to help ie define the processes.
the choice of word should not matter but picking the closest should get to a result faster.
i'm not sure a the mo which type of word is the best to go for. the word needs to easily fit with answering the what & why.
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Appearance is one I have always considered to be very importance. Looking very closely at the finished dish can identify alot about it. What components are in it and how they might have been treated.
I refer to the IG Tomato Puree as an example. They fry Garlic in plenty of oil until golden then stir through Tomato Paste, adding water at the final stage to bulk it out. This process alone creates an essential part of the finished dish.
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I refer to the IG Tomato Puree as an example. They fry Garlic in plenty of oil until golden then stir through Tomato Paste, adding water at the final stage to bulk it out. This process alone creates an essential part of the finished dish.
It is interesting axe as to why they 'doctor' the tomato paste like this. It's quite clear that many BIRs are doing this but I have to wonder why? After all, in this case for example, the garlic could go in at any stage of the final curry cooking but they choose to 'force' it into every dish that uses the tomato paste (nearly all?).
It just seems a bit unnecessary to me.
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Perhaps there is more to it than meets the eye. The flavour imparted to the tomato may not be as coarse as you think or adds that certain something to the depth of flavour. Freshly cooked garlic will taste different to roasted garlic for instance. The same thing is probably going on here.
Just as the Ginger & Garlic paste is different to the raw ingredient. Now when I say this, I refer to the uncooked blended Ginger & Garlic paste. I am unsure whether the BIR does this for time saving or whether it is due to the chemical transition that takes place. One would like to think the latter is more agreeable but in all likely hood, it is just a lucky break on the first school of thought. However, to get the best out of garlic prior to cooking it, it should be bruised or gently crushed and allowed to sit for 20 mins. so by turning it into a paste, they change the make up of the ingredients. this becoming another process that is not necessarily the breakthrough 'missing something' but is an essential process to the finished dish.
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i've tried the technique out but it's not working.
we need to pick out the individual process as Axe has started to do and discuss them in detail.
the fried garlic in the tom puree does suprise me too - the fried garlic slither is a key taste for me in quite a few dishes but like Secret Santa it amazes me why force it to all. perhap my want on the process front may explain more behind the apparent madness.
my want is on why follow: oil, g/g, onion, puree/spice.
for me it should be oil, onion, gg/puree/spice ie 3 steps not 4.
ps i use the ashoka pre cooked g/g but this has no bearing but i do rate the pre cooking as a process.
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Perhaps there is more to it than meets the eye. The flavour imparted to the tomato may not be as coarse as you think or adds that certain something to the depth of flavour. Freshly cooked garlic will taste different to roasted garlic for instance. The same thing is probably going on here.
Just as the Ginger & Garlic paste is different to the raw ingredient. Now when I say this, I refer to the uncooked blended Ginger & Garlic paste. I am unsure whether the BIR does this for time saving or whether it is due to the chemical transition that takes place. One would like to think the latter is more agreeable but in all likely hood, it is just a lucky break on the first school of thought. However, to get the best out of garlic prior to cooking it, it should be bruised or gently crushed and allowed to sit for 20 mins. so by turning it into a paste, they change the make up of the ingredients. this becoming another process that is not necessarily the breakthrough 'missing something' but is an essential process to the finished dish.
Knowing the ratios of the garlic to oil to tomato paste to water would help clear at least some part of it up - any help on that, Axe?
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Domi, this will hopefully be something I can answer when I next visit the IG to see the base gravy being made. But it would be best guess for now i'm afraid.
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Thanks Axe ;) it'll be interesting to know how much of a punch the garlic makes :)
Maybe another thing to consider is the frying of cumin seed in with the onions, some do, some don't..it's something I always do when using onions in the final dish (dopiazas/baltis etc). The frying of the onions is another thing, some just soften the onion, some fry till golden, others caramelize...which would you consider the best option?
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One of the things that going to the IG Kitchen has taught me, is just how much goes on in the back ground. The most important thing I have learnt, is not to make assumptions.
I like my onion cooked through, but you won't get the textural balance if it is cooked too much.
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Something that has been on my mind regarding process is a particular smell that I have noticed. I noticed this the first time the IG Chef came to our offices. I couldn't put my finger on it but it smelt like he'd just eaten a good quality smoked bacon sandwich (don't laugh). This same smell I noticed lingering in the restaurant when I went there one morning to see the owner.
The next time I smelt this was when I attended the kitchen demo when it was much stronger and finally again yesterday when the owner came to our offices. I still can't put my finger on it but it smells very similar to an Inglenook log fire roaring away.
I can only assume that this is from a process performed in the Kitchen. So I immediately think of a smoking process, but for what? Do they smoke certain spices before use or is it meat or chicken that they smoke? Are they using a smoking at all or could this smoky smell come from cooking certain spices?
Has anyone else experienced this or have an idea of what process might be creating this smell?
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The only thing that immediately springs to mind is the tandoori oven, Axe...could it be the charcoal they use or may it be cooked forearm and singed arm hairs? lol
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Domi, that's a very good point I hadn't considered that. Would they use charcoal in a commercial kitchen though? Excuse me being naive.
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Hi
Axe, I would say it's a combination of all the kitchen processes, tandoori being the prominent one, those bits of burnt chicken etc. Also it says more about cooking habits and the wearing of every day clothes in the kitchen.
Regards
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Apparently they do..."Fuel for this fire is provided by charcoals lining the bottom of the structure. In order to produce temperatures approaching 900 degrees Fahrenheit (480 degrees Celsius), employees maintain a long vigil to keep the tandoori oven's coals burning all the time." Though I can't say that all do. ;)
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I'll have to find out, I thought it would be gas powered with Lava Rock rather like a BBQ.
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Both types are available and used. Your average BIR will almost certainly use a gas fired one. The coals take up to 2 hours to get to the right temperature. I imagine the posher more traditional BIR's will use charcoal ones though.
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What I don't understand though, is why I have only just noticed this smell. I don't ever recall having smelt it in the restaurant during service. Perhaps like many things I have come to learn, I just wasn't ware of it or even looking it for it. But it is interesting to learn that some BIR's use Charcoal.
This is something, I definitely won't be able to re-create at home. :-\
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What I don't understand though, is why I have only just noticed this smell. I don't ever recall having smelt it in the restaurant during service.
Hi Axe,
I notice in your first post about the smell that you mention smelling it on the chef in the morning or otherwise out of service times...could they be times that the chef has been clearing out/setting up the tandoor that has made the smell somehow more noticeable? I'm not saying that's the case but I'd guess that the other cooking/preparation processes throughout the day/night may drown out/ dissipate the smoke-like aroma? :-\
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It could well be and its definitely something I aim to find out. Perhaps they use the Tandoor to precook certain meats. The Tandoor for certain, was not fired up when I visited for the Bhaji demo and by the time the other cooking processes had started, the pilau rice process especially, the aroma's had all but engulfed the smoky aroma.
I have also taken a mental note of when certain processes are being done as well. They only have a small kitchen and with 3 or 4 people in their, you have to be polite. ;) So perhaps different processes are done on different days for this reason. For instance, they make base (garabi as they call it) Monday and Saturday, the Onion Bhaji demo I had was on Thursday and the Pilau rice was being prepared too. Which produced some very interesting aroma's along its way.
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Ok. I know I'm a newbie here but I've been a keen recipe follower for a while. I use UB's base and CA's recipes. Tonight I carried out the utimate test, I made a chicken madras and ordered a chicken madras. My missus was in on the test too. Tne dishes looked almost identical but the most notable taste differences were a definite tea / leafy taste which my other half describes as fenugreek after getting her to sniff a variety of ingredients. The other taste which I found stood out was a definite taste of black pepper and a bitter tase of something else. Can anyone explain further?
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Two points...
1. Experience.
Let's not forget that most of us only make a handful a month and are still relative novices at the game. My local takeaway,for example,has just promoted a young guy(who's been around the kitchen 3 odd years) to apprentice chef status.The basic training alone will take him a year under the eye of a Masterchef who's been doing it 40 years or more.To watch this old guy cook in front of you one might think it looks easy-he knocks out superb curries in less than 10 minutes-whilst cooking pakoras,making naans,serving chips and cheese and dealing with pissed and obnoxious punters. His lifetime experience makes it look so easy.Fact is it aint!.Years of know how are invloved.
2. The Psychology.
When you've worked away for hours in the kitchen your're already familiar and possibly immune to the spices/smells. But when it's just handed to you by a delivery guy as you're sat home with a few beers and DVD then the sheer walk-in factor from your local take away probably makes a bigger impact on your senses than you might think had you been around your kitchen own cooking alll day...
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Excuse me,
dealing with pissed and obnoxious punters.
I resemble that remark ;D
Ray :)
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cooking pakoras,making naans,serving chips and cheese
Remind me not to visit that restaurant, sounds very traditional, LOL. :P
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mmmmmm, Chps 'n' cheese ......larve it ;D
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Axe,
i get the same smell that u get in the street or as u enter an open kitchen TA. if this is the smell u refer then for me it's from frying the curries. mine lingers for about 3 days.
Dirk,
the bitter taste in madras could well be tamarind (see Secret Santa's chill sauce).
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Jerry,
The smell is definitely more of a woody smoky aroma, I suppose if you add into the mix, frying onion and spices it has sweetened it up. Its certainly not an offensive smell but it is very noticeable.
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cooking pakoras,making naans,serving chips and cheese
Remind me not to visit that restaurant, sounds very traditional, LOL. :P
eeh! you've not lived till you've had cheesy chilli chips, Axe! They're not very BIR though...
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Not very BIR at all. LOL
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Hoping to return to the IG soon for the base demo, I have come to realise that I need to learn a little more about what procedures exist in the BIR kitchen. This will allow me to capitalise on the time I have there and ask the right questions.
Of course, all of my research so far has been based on the meals I want to cook and it has also made realise just how little I know about BIR. So I have searched through the forum trying to build a list of all the possible procedures that exist, prior to the final creation of the dishes themselves.
Thinking over what I have seen in the kitchen so far and what I have found on here, it didn't take long before I realised just how big a list this might be. But I have to start somewhere so have listed below what I currently know and understand so far.
Base - The forthcoming kitchen demo should answer all the questions.
Spice Mix - The IG SM is already listed but what is the curry powder being used ingredients, brand, etc.
Garlic & Ginger Paste - Recipe and procedure
Tomato Puree - Recipe and procedure
Onion Paste - Recipe and procedure
Pre-cooked Chicken - Recipe and procedure
Pre-cooked Lamb - Recipe and procedure
Pre-cooked Potato - Recipe and procedure
Pre-cooked Mushroom - Recipe and procedure
Naan Dough - Recipe and procedure
Let me know what's missing and i'll add it to the list. I have left things like marinades for Tikka / Tandoori as this is more final recipe than pre-made procedure. But if I get the chance, I will ask about Masala's for this.