Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Razor on March 26, 2010, 11:04 AM
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Hi Guys,
Ok, last night, being in a lazy mood after a very long day at work, I decided to order the family a takeaway :o
I ordered from this place http://www.indianoceanonline.co.uk/ (http://www.indianoceanonline.co.uk/) This place has a number of awards and I believe was held in high esteem with the Curry Council. Now, the last time I used this place was way before I became a member of this site and my memories of their food, was that it was excellent!
However, what I had last night (Lamb tikka Jal Frezi) was less than impressive. It was watery thin, very bland and to be honest, a disappointment. My wife and children had CTM, again, they were very unimpressed, leaving most of it for the dog, (who by the way, seemed to enjoy it ;D)
I turned to my wife and said, "this place has gone downhill" she said that my Curry's (CA's really ::)) were far better.
Now, my wife is no 'curry connoisseur' but she does know what she likes, and she didn't like this!
It then occurred to me that we may be being at bit too harsh on ourselves. Our biggest critics will undoubtedly be ourselves but what do our family and friends think about our food. Has anyone ever tried out a 'blind taste test' on our friends, comparing our food with a restaurant dish?
After a couple of years as a member here (most of it, purely as an observer :)) I believe that I have picked up a wealth of knowledge that would make what I cook, comparable with a lot of the TA's and BIR's.
Now I'm not suggesting for one minute that I am a 'complete curry chef' but I am saying that my food, could pass as a BIR dish, to someone that didn't know otherwise and I'm sure that would be the case with most of us here.
We are always in search of 'the taste' but who's to say that we haven't found it? We spend many years, tweaking and perfecting our style, ingredients and methods, making tiny steps along the way to perfection but the 'eureka' moment either passes us by or we never seem to have one! But, if you can remember your first attempt, and then fast forward to where you are now, and bang, that would be your 'eureka' moment.
This post is not a 'knee jerk reaction' to having a substandard curry, it's something that I have felt for a while. We went out with friends a month or so ago and we went to a fantastic restaurant. I actually give it rave reviews on the forum but, when I sit back and really think about it, the food was good but it wasn't the best I'd had either! The evening was excellent, the restaurant was brilliant, the service was fantastic the food was good but, if I was served the very same food back in the 80's when a curry house was somewhere to get a bite to eat and not a night out, I wouldn't have been so enthused.
I'm not suggesting that we are there, and I'm not suggesting that we should stop looking to improve but, what I am saying is, I think sometimes we are a little harsh on ourselves and we are definitely our worst critics. Let you family and friends critique your food, I think that way, you will get a more accurate understanding of where you are in your quest!
Ray
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Hi Razor, i feel the same way, i went to the local Indian restaurant a few weeks back and watched them make my Dupiaza, i never really learned anything, other than they use their own spice mixes. And the naan bread was gorgeous, which i think is an understated ingredient to a good curry.
I have said myself on here that i can cook a better balti than my local, and when family have come round for a curry, they have all said the same thing, that it was the best they had had, well my granddaughter said she actually prefered the white curry to the red curry but then she is only 2, and was on her second plate full.
Ive had eureka moments, when ive said "thats it,its pefect" but then the following week have not found it, but then so do all restaurants, one week good the next not so good.
I am self critical, and believe it or not im modest, but i don't see any reason not to be honest with myself.
When i was a babby a wagon wheel was massive and a curly-wurly was 2 feet long, our tastes and memories alter with time too.
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When i was a babby a wagon wheel was massive and a curly-wurly was 2 feet long, our tastes and memories alter with time too.
Ha! Those darned manufacturers have duped you then P&J! They WERE massive way ;) back then! THEY have shrunk them and led you to BELIEVE that your tastes and memories change with time! The darned things are tiny now! :P
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Hi Peterandjen
Wagon wheels were massive back in the day and a can of pop had to be held with two hands hahahaha.
I regularly make my best mate a 'takeaway' he gives me a fiver for it, not that I want his money, but he feels if he treats me, he can ask again :-\
He swears, what I cook for him, is better than anything his local does, and who am I to argue ::)
Bt the way, toblerones used to be a metre long back in the day as well ;D
Ray
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I think you make good points here Ray. I guess a lot of us (me included) are both very critical and seeking some kind of perfection that we might never reach.
As a result I focus 100% on the sauce flavour and don't faff around with nice extras like pilau rice, nan breads, bhajis etc. I just make a chicken, lamb or vegetable curry and eat it with plain basmati rice. Once I'm really happy with the curry sauce I'll move onto the extras.
Last night's curry was very good indeed!
Those Wagon Wheels and Curly Wurlys sure look smaller!
Paul.
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yeah and im not even going to mention spangles.
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I am a newcomer to cooking BIR but not to cooking. It is always easy to be critical about things. But I have always compared my curry skills against that of my favourite BIR. So I am, so far anyway, permanently disappointed. Don't get me wrong, we've enjoyed many good home cooked meals, but that BIR something is always missing.
Having been introduced to this site very recently, I have been forced to re-think my entire perception of curry. Doing so means I have approached the subject with a completely open mind, but have found myself making silly assumptions and have to keep reminding myself to remain open minded.
Given the amount of processes that exist in the BIR kitchen, we will invariably struggle to find that truly authentic BIR flavour. That does not mean we can't create a dish that is equally as good. Infact, given the changing face of BIR/TA curry and the ever increasing use of pre-made pastes etc., I would consider that the attention we give recipes, is probably far greater than that of your average modern BIR. It therefore stands to reason we will produce a better end result.
The IG Chef recently mentioned to me that they took the best bits from various different regions to produce their menu. We are doing a similar thing, picking all the best bits we learn from our quest. They produce some of the best food I have ever eaten in a BIR, surely we can too.
:)
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Absolutely Axe,
The thing with BIR cooking is, in theory, it should be simple! They are, after all, running a business, they are not going to over complicate things. Everything that they do in their kitchens will be simple, methodical and almost mechanical. Im pretty sure that they don't have any michelin star standard chefs working in these places, although they will be very good at what they do. It's more than likley that they are all related in one way or another, and learned their craft from spending a few months in the BIR kitchen.
If you cooked your favourate dish, 30 times a day, day in day out, how good do you think that would make you as a chef, probably excellent IMO. And that, to me is where they have the advantage, that's all. I wouldn't say that their food is any better than ours though.
Axe, I am absolutely convinced, in a month or so, understanding how dedicated you appear to be, you will reach a point where you are creating dishes that all your family and friends will love MORE than their local BIR, but YOU will be the only one thinking that there is something missing (and there probably won't be anything missing at all)
Ray
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Its quite funny you know, he we are discussing our progress and ability ever in search of the secret and yet everytime I visit IG, they insist it is easy and there is no secret!
I have to keep reminding them that it maybe easy and well known to them, but to us its a bloody mystery! :D
I have come to consider that it is easy, as you say, it has to be easy and quick to cook or they wouldn't do it. I just have to identify all the individual processes and work out how they fit together properly.
With the help of IG and the wealth of experience on here. I hope I can give something back. Being able to cook a meal for family friends that is liked as much if not more than their usual BIR or TA would certainly be an accomplishment.
:)
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The experience described by Razor is one I can relate to. I often find myself thinking, "that was nothing special", or " I could cook that just as good if not better" when I am eating out whether it be Indian, Chinese or Italian. I don't think of myself as being any kind of super chef but I can cook. I am happy with the level that my curries are at now and I enjoy cooking them. This site is a genuine treasure trove to curryholics like me.
I remember the 1970s when Naan breads were the size of a table for 4.
I remember when Cadbury's Creme Eggs were the size of melons.
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very much agree on all that's said.
i am sure there is no secret we just need a better handle on those processes. there is considerable variation within BIR land which makes our task that much more difficult.
it's been said before but for me i'm aiming top notch BIR - not the average which is unfortunately is in most towns in high numbers. top notch is very rare and as we know well worth that extra mile both in the car or our personal efforts.
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Jerry, i'm with you on this, I want nothing more than to be able to reproduce the food that comes from my favourite restaurant.
I have formulated an opinion whilst being here, that curry falls into two brackets.
Old School which is, as I consider, the top notch food you mention. Perhaps following the more traditional Bangladesh style of restaurants.
New Wave which is now the generalised cook from a paste modern take on cooking TA.
Would you consider this as an appropriate statement?
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Axe , if when you say ' paste ' you mean the Pataks type of paste from a jar then I don't think you would find any T/A using much of that , but there are two types of cooking when it comes to Curry's , your usual BIR style using a pre - made Base Sauce and then there's the traditional Curry which is made ' from scratch ' where Onions , Tomatoes ,etc are cooked down at the start of the Curry to make the Sauce , this type of Curry is usually found in the top class Indian Restaurants like this -
http://www.myristica.co.uk/ (http://www.myristica.co.uk/)
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Axe , if when you say ' paste ' you mean the Pataks type of paste from a jar then I don't think you would find any T/A using much of that
I take it that this is what Axe means. I think there are many using such pastes nowadays emin-j (from the numerous reports of seeing them in BIR kitchens), Dipuraja (Dial a Curry) obviously being one of them. And I would agree with Axe. Use of these commercially prepared pastes and ingredients is far more prevalent nowadays than it was before the 90s (when they were commercially far less available, if at all).
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emin-j yes I do mean Pataks. Perhaps its my miss-conception of what BIR means, before I arrived on this site, I had never heard the term BIR.
Forgive me if i'm wrong but I understand BIR to mean restaurants that cook Indian Cuisine in a way associated to a typical British Indian Restaurant. This is far different to a restaurant cooking Indian Cuisine in a Traditional way, or TIR for want of an abbreviation.
So on that basis, I divide BIR into two categories, old school and new wave. The latter lending themselves to commercially available pre-made alternatives such Pataks Paste etc.
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Jerry, i'm with you on this, I want nothing more than to be able to reproduce the food that comes from my favourite restaurant.
I have formulated an opinion whilst being here, that curry falls into two brackets.
Old School which is, as I consider, the top notch food you mention. Perhaps following the more traditional Bangladesh style of restaurants.
New Wave which is now the generalised cook from a paste modern take on cooking TA.
Would you consider this as an appropriate statement?
Sorry Axe it was the word ' Traditional ' that threw me there ;)
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Axe,
i do agree totally on the BIR classification - old school & new wave. i don't think it's just down to paste either - much depends like anything on the people behind the BIR. the one's with the passion are the clear leaders.
i know what emin-j is getting at too - these i call posh BIR's. u need very deep pockets to visit them. we have one in warrington (the cottage). it's a very busy place don't get me wrong it's just not for me.
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Hi All
just want to add my tuppy pennyworth.
from what I have read in this forum, I have to agree with all that has been said in this thread I would guess I would be well satisfied with any dish you guys prepared the same as I am sure any I made.
I was lucky in the sense that as a fridge engineer I have worked in many a curry house so saw first hand how things where done and how secretive they could be if you asked questions, used to make me laugh as sometimes they would throw me out of the kitchen for 10/15 mins while they did certain things but I did see quite a bit and it was much as we all do, nothing that special.
I think the difference comes in when it's home made and again Ive been in homes where nanny makes the meal she is normally 70+ and speaks very little english, loads of stainless steel tins or jars filled with her mixes, very little info from her (only big smiles) but you do see what she is doing.
so don't knock yourselves, I think your doing a great job.
fridgdoc
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fridgedoc,
i can relate fully to this. i knew an Italian chef briefly a while ago - no secrets but on the ingredient front had skill in combining and cooking them that u ordinarily would not take sufficient notice of eg browning onions.
anyhow reason for post given u're experience. 2 things always in mind of BIR's - fridges full of base and rooms full of spice. would appreciate u're thoughts on both. my thinking being that somehow in processing and storing base they do something that's not obvious at home. the owner of my local TA always say we won't master the taste down to spice. he's not clear on whether this is down to the smaller volume (of base) we produce or the greater variety of spice they have to use.
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I am a newcomer to cooking BIR but not to cooking. It is always easy to be critical about things. But I have always compared my curry skills against that of my favourite BIR. So I am, so far anyway, permanently disappointed. Don't get me wrong, we've enjoyed many good home cooked meals, but that BIR something is always missing.
I've changed my opinion on this recently and may be more in line with Razor's thinking. I find that much BIR output is nothing special and I'm sure that most of the recipes on this site produce food which is t least as good, and probably better. For most BIRs output, I don't detect any special BIR flavour at all. I'd go as far as saying that many chilled food dishes are better from supermarkets, with the exception of food which really needs to be fresh, like naan bread.
This leaves the exceptional BIRs, but they are are now few and far between. It's like any field - there are always experts, who may be hard to match, e.g. you might be able to sing, play an instrument, do cake icing or plaster a wall - but can you produce results which match the top professionals in those fields? It's never easy.
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Hi fridgedoc, to my mind that proves there are trade secrets closely guarded as it forms the backbone of there business. It also displays evidence that there are preparations that are closely guarded, done in the afternoon / daytime. Its significant that none of the you tube videos ever show chefs doing these preparations. instead they just show the chefs cooking the final curry. presumably these demos dont risk revealing these secrets.
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In response to the original question of the thread , the harsher the better as far as i am concerned ;D its the only way to really achieve a perfect clone , i believe it can be done without insider knowledge, i swear i am getting closer every month. its really just about playing around with the spices, and key ingredients. we are not missing any key ingredients.
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George, unfortunately my quest for cooking BIR has only just started, so I am quite a way behind you guys. As a family, we rarely order in anymore. This is largely down to ever changing restaurants and TA's. The many offerings we have around us, simply don't offer food to the standard we have had in the past.
The trouble is my curry history is largely based on two restaurants. One which sadly closed after many years of service and the other the Indian Garden. Both of which have given me a discerning palette for curry.
I agree with the sentiments towards the less exceptional restaurants, no matter how we refer to them. Up until only recently (My Onion Bhaji Quest) I would have struggled to truly say my cooking could exceed the quality of these BIR's. But the IG Kitchen Demo and my IG Breakdown recipe have proven to me that this is indeed possible.
That missing something? Well perhaps that's another topic but I do believe it is just a matter of identifying the right pieces and putting them together in the right sequence. It is not a specific flavour that you can add from a spice jar. Infact, this is another topic and I will start one for it.
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to my mind that proves there are trade secrets closely guarded
But you could also consider that perhaps they are doing something that regulation says they are not meant to or hiding a process they would rather people did not know, like the amount of colouring being used, or the use of a paste etc.
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to my mind that proves there are trade secrets closely guarded
But you could also consider that perhaps they are doing something that regulation says they are not meant to or hiding a process they would people did not know, like the amount of colouring being used, or the use of a paste etc.
My thoughts too. The secrecy could be more to do with hiding 'dubious practice rather than creating the magic.
I also agree with you DD that it's good to be harsh on ourselves, it keeps us on our toes but, I don't want to be the mouse on the mouse wheel, continuously running round and round with no conclusion
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Are we being too harsh on ourselves?
Yes I reckon so , I have two T/A within 1/4 mile of me and they can produce really nice Curries ( Madras ) but they also produce crap Curries some nights so any ' Secret Processes ' don't always work :-X I consistently ( and many members on the forum no doubt ) make a better Madras Curry than any of them so I don't think I am going to learn much from them ::) BUT there is a Bangladeshi T/A that is a 25mile round trip by Motorway from me and I just cant touch their flavour , never a bad Curry so their is more to learn ( their Bhajis are crap tho :( )
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For most BIRs output, I don't detect any special BIR flavour at all.
Yup, any special flavour and aroma that was there in the past is now truly dead and gone as far as I can tell, in my locality at least.
you might be able to sing, play an instrument, do cake icing or plaster a wall
Hey! Have you been spying on me George? I can sing, play the ukelele, ice cakes and plaster like a pro! Uncanny! :o ;D
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Hey! Have you been spying on me George? I can sing, play the ukelele, ice cakes and plaster like a pro! Uncanny! :o ;D
You must be a skilled individual indeed! I can't sing or play any musical instrument whatsoever. Any attempt at fancy cake icing would look very amateur, as did my attempt at plastering a wall.
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hello all, aint been on too much last couple of months. i work away from home and been more away than home, too damn busy.
I finished off the last portion of my base 2 days ago so its base making time again. I love this part of making a curry, a flick through all the base recipies, decieding which to try this time, reading the reviews of the base ect.
i know what my favourite base is so far but wont bother saying, we all have our own ideas. And this is just the point everyone likes diffrent bases and taste, as much as i wouldnt eat a korma someone else would swear by it.
We appear much of the time to be running around in circles missing the big picture ie do i personaly like it. Ive had such diffrent taste and quality of a madras in 100s of bir's that ive come to the conclusion there realy is no elusive taste to be found.
every recipe and base and spice mixture on here pretty much has the same standard items, then on top we give our own twists, im sure this is the same in any bir. We cant see the wood for the trees.
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Love the common sense Jimmy - a wonderful antidote to some of the more mystical posts that appear from time to time.
It ain't magic it's just cooking.