Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on January 20, 2010, 07:52 PM
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i've been trying to pin point where my gaps are for a while now - in the past i could pick out differences (with my BIR TA) and apply a scatter approach to finding what was wrong.
gut feeling is that it's spice mix or recipe or ingredient related.
for inspiration i've been going through the malik video with a fine tooth comb. to make sense of it i need to be able to work out (or be pretty sure of what all the ingredients are).
there are 8 off that i'm struggling on:
A8, 17:52, B6, 18:42 - ?? tub from below
B4, 14:47 - ?? Methi?
B6, 19:15 - ?? lump
C1, 0:53 - ?? (jar_17)
C4, 17:40 - ?? herb
D1, 17:17 - ?? (jar_21)
D1, 17:17, D2, 19:27 - ?? (jar_22)
D2, 19:27, C2, 11:03, C6 21:03 - ?? (jar_15)
the video's are in link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0).
notation: A8, 17:52 - A refers to video A, 8 refers to the 8 th dish cooked and 17:52 the time the unknown ingredient is added.
any help appreciated.
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Jerry i accept that some bir use the odd extra ingredient or 2 (eg cashew paste) but i dont think we are missing any major ingredients which will suddenly bridge the gap. I think many recipies on this site are just not very advanced or developed. After a year of trying i have finally got rid of an unwanted flavor in my madras, and found a new method which is a step closer, but not a true replica. No extra spices were introduced, but it tastes so much better. Actually i reduced and removed some spices. If i keep making gradual improvments i am convinced it will at least match some bir madras i have purchased. Personally i dont think copying chefs spice mixes is very helpful in learning about using spices. I recently dropped the use of the DD spice mix which i highly rated for 2 years. Making up your own spice mixes is better. Instead of looking for new spices i am finally learning how all the typical spices work, in combination with other inregients, so far with encouraging results. I must admit though i am intrigued by the amount of unfamilier spices i see in asian supermarkets.
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I'm sorry DD, but can you please be more specific about what you mean?....
I think many recipies on this site are just not very advanced or developed
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What do you mean by that DD?
After a year of trying i have finally got rid of an unwanted flavor in my madras, and found a new method which is a step closer, but not a true replica. No extra spices were introduced, but it tastes so much better. Actually i reduced and removed some spices.
What do you mean by that DD? Please be specific?
If i keep making gradual improvments i am convinced it will at least match some bir madras i have purchased.
What "gradual improvements" are they DD?
Personally i dont think copying chefs spice mixes is very helpful in learning about using spices.
Please elaborate? Which "chef's spice mixes"?
I recently dropped the use of the DD spice mix which i highly rated for 2 years. Making up your own spice mixes is better.
Why is is better? What have you done that they have not done?
Instead of looking for new spices i am finally learning how all the typical spices work, in combination with other inregients, so far with encouraging results.
What an earth do you mean by that?? :-\
I'm sorry DD, but that must rank as one of the most diffuse posts on this forum ever! :-\ (no offence Mikka! ;))
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HI CA, what i mean is that a real bir recipe (base + a madras to go with it) must have been gradually developed over many years (possibly handed down through generations) this is why they are commercially viable, and taste much better than home cooked curry. I feel many recipies on this site are not as developed in comparison to this benchmark. I am not saying they are not good recipes, as they are very enjoyable. The chef at my local even clearly stated that you need to make tiny changes to recipies to improve it step by step, over many years. After many years it will develop in taste. Even an 8th of a tsp of tumeric can change a recipe final taste. For me thats part of the missing stages i am working on. I am trying to get to know all the key ingredients (spices, tomato, fesh coriander, garlic paste, tom puree etc) tiny chnages too the amounts of any one of these can make significant differences to the final curry. Its hard to give examples, as its best explained by just doing it yourself. I found that my madras was tasting strange when i added lemon. It turns out a year later that this was due partly to the safron base, and the tumeric in the spice mix. now i have a new base i am testing, and make a new spice mix, and the issue no longer occurs. for me it was a breakthrough. finally i got rid of a taste that had bugged me all year. its still not perfect, but much better. my new recipe still has some issues, but it will be fun working out how to fix them.
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HI CA, what i mean is that a real bir recipe (base + a madras to go with it) must have been gradually developed over many years (possibly handed down through generations)
Oh please! Do you REALLY think it's that complex and subtle!?
I feel many recipies on this site are not as developed in comparison to this benchmark
I still don't know what you mean by this? Are you saying that something is still "missing"? If so, what?
Even an 8th of a tsp of tumeric can change a recipe final taste
Do you REALLY believe that DD?? I don't!
now i have a new base i am testing, and make a new spice mix, and the issue no longer occurs. for me it was a breakthrough. finally i got rid of a taste that had bugged me all year. its still not perfect, but much better. my new recipe still has some issues, but it will be fun working out how to fix them
Obtuse DD :-\ Please can you be more specific? :-\
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DD/CA,
very much appreciate your help. i'd love to explore this as much as we can.
i think what's going through my mind is what DD is trying to say. that is - u have to gain experience to cook like the BIR chefs we aim to emulate.
interesting on DD's spice trial - i have it in my mind to do the same (starting with Mikka's mix).
i'm not sure that we aren't missing ingredients though.
all i'm asking is have a quick look at the video and tell me what u think they are using. where this all comes from is asking my local BIR chef about chilli sauce - he blew my socks off when he said he used it and made his own. i fully expected a big NO NO.
i know we have g/g paste and bunjarra. in terms of sauces: masala, south indian, chilli. the question is for me - is there anything else. cashew paste sounds good. does anyone know of anything else.
ps my gap is small. it's certainly not down to base, nor technique, or equipment - hence my belief that it must be ingredient in some fashion - either not known or not in the right proportion.
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Jerry, i hear what you are saying about the missing ingredient. I have tasted good bir madras that i swear are made from all the usual ingredients. they have more mastery of the ingredients though. the top notch bengal curry houses do get a taste which i cant fadom out. there could be the odd 1 or 2 missing ingredients with those.
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have a quick look at the video and tell me what u think they are using
Jerry - I took a look at 5 or 6 of your mystery ingredients. It's near impossible to say intelligently what any of those are.
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Josh,
thanks - i'd pretty much come to the same. i was just hoping it might just switch on someone's grey cells.
for info this is a list of what i think all the rest of the ingredients are (including the unkowns):
? Tub from below
?herb
base
coconut flour
chilli sauce
cream
fresh coriander
g/g
ghee
jar 17_? (almond powder best guess)
jar15_?
jar21_?
jar22_? (pataks best guess)
jar_23? (green chilli paste best guess)
lemon dressing
lump_?
Mango chutney
meat
methi_?
mushroom
onion paste (jar_24)
oil
onion
red paste (masala)
spice
sugar
tom puree
vegetables
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::) here we go again !
I have found it's so important not to burn either the Garlic / Ginger or the Spices which is easily done , also the amount of Salt is critical to get the best flavour , we have all the recipes and ingredients it's just down to technique and practice . :)
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Salt is an issue yes.
Now then how much salt do you serve yourself per dish please?
It's just that I've heard so much about how important salt is yet what I see put in the average base is more than minimal.
I beg to differ on technique and practice also Ermin. I've done it every way upside down and backwards. Heck if I were on the game I'd have earned a fortune.
So then.... You are saying your dishes are perfect? Exactly the same as a TA? Mine aren't but they are pretty damned close and I'm adding different things. I don't think it is about point A for most cooks who are proficient, its about point B. The Exit and an end to the doubt.
It's a stew, made faster for the restaurant trade. It isn't rocket science and Chefs are inventive and secretive about what they put in their food. Ask KFC if you can have their special recipe yeah? Anyone can cook chicken, only KFC know what spices they use. there are plenty of other examples too.
There is nothing what so ever wrong in experimenting with food providing you know a little of the outcome.
Yes here we go again. No change, same result.
Best regards.
::) here we go again !
I have found it's so important not to burn either the Garlic / Ginger or the Spices which is easily done , also the amount of Salt is critical to get the best flavour , we have all the recipes and ingredients it's just down to technique and practice . :)
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I found that my madras was tasting strange when i added lemon.
That's because you added lemon! ;D
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the question is for me - is there anything else. cashew paste sounds good. does anyone know of anything else.
The one thing I have noticed from watching the real BIR chefs on the takeaway streams is that, with korma, CTM, and pasanda, they use vastly more sugar, coconut, and almonds than any of the recipes on this forum do.
The East takeaway, for example, uses two heaped chef's spoons of almond powder in the pasanda. That's about 16 TBSP!
For the korma it's even worse. At least a heaped chef's spoon of sugar there, that's 8 TBSP! :o I can't imagine how they can use so much sugar without making people puke. It makes me wonder whether the sugar isn't JUST sugar, but maybe something extra added in with it? ???
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emin-j,
all i need for u to say is that u know of no more ingredients than what i've listed. salt is in the list. i don't need this to be drawn out - it's a sort of 1%'er but would open up my range of dishes.
Secret Santa,
i have a few conclusions myself but i want to watch a few more of the video's before deciding - the knowledge on the extra unknown 8 off ingredients would have just helped fill the picture a little clearer.
on what u've seen - i totally agree - lot's of c.flour and sugar. the other key thing for me is they used 2 techniques to cook whereas i only currently use the same technique for all - i intend to experiment on the next base.
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Hi secret Santa, i know not everyone adds lemon to madras, but i know 2 bir chefs that do. When you get the lemon and tomato puree right, its spot on. the lemon must be barely noticable. just enough to bring out the flavor of the tomato and give a slight sweet and sour effect. the sweet obviously comes from other ingredients. lemon and lime is an important bir ingredient, not to be discarded. in my humble opinion ! anyway enough of my preaching !
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Hi secret Santa, i know not everyone adds lemon to madras, but i know 2 bir chefs that do. When you get the lemon and tomato puree right, its spot on. the lemon must be barely noticable. just enough to bring out the flavor of the tomato and give a slight sweet and sour effect. the sweet obviously comes from other ingredients. lemon and lime is an important bir ingredient, not to be discarded. in my humble opinion ! anyway enough of my preaching !
Takeaway from up the road from me actually serves madras with a slice of lemon in it, and its lovely!!.
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Salt is an issue yes.
Now then how much salt do you serve yourself per dish please?
It's just that I've heard so much about how important salt is yet what I see put in the average base is more than minimal.
I beg to differ on technique and practice also Ermin. I've done it every way upside down and backwards. Heck if I were on the game I'd have earned a fortune.
So then.... You are saying your dishes are perfect? Exactly the same as a TA? Mine aren't but they are pretty damned close and I'm adding different things. I don't think it is about point A for most cooks who are proficient, its about point B. The Exit and an end to the doubt.
It's a stew, made faster for the restaurant trade. It isn't rocket science and Chefs are inventive and secretive about what they put in their food. Ask KFC if you can have their special recipe yeah? Anyone can cook chicken, only KFC know what spices they use. there are plenty of other examples too.
There is nothing what so ever wrong in experimenting with food providing you know a little of the outcome.
Yes here we go again. No change, same result.
Best regards.
::) here we go again !
I have found it's so important not to burn either the Garlic / Ginger or the Spices which is easily done , also the amount of Salt is critical to get the best flavour , we have all the recipes and ingredients it's just down to technique and practice . :)
Hi Mikka , I use 1 - 1 1/2 teaspoons of Salt per portion ( final Curry ) I stir in 1 tsp then taste the Curry to See if any more Salt is needed , it really brings out the flavour.
I have concentrated on Madras for the past year as this is our favourite and have tried various Base Gravy's and I am using the Saffron Base at the moment.
I use the same amount of Spices every time I make our Madras but have noticed how the flavour changes from being a little ' bland ' to knocking spots off our local T/A and I am pretty sure this is down to the time spent cooking the Garlic / Ginger plus the Spices , it is a fine line between frying just right or frying for too long which will spoil the taste of your Curry , I have cooked so many Madras Curries now I can tell what the Curry is going to taste like now by the time I have taken to fry the G/G and Spices , my best Curries are the ones where I don't think I have fried it enough :-\ if that makes sense ??? this is the technique I mentioned and this is where a good Chef will get it spot on ( most of the time ) Liked your Vid by the way Mikka just think you need more heat from your Gas .
Regards.
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1 - 1 1/2 teaspoons of Salt per portion
Wow. I've found that more than 0.5 tsp of salt kills a single portion curry.
How much do others use for salt?
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How much do others use for salt?
Farrrrrrr less; maybe 0.25tsp per person (plus what's in the base)
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i can really relate to what emin say's in his last post.
i've found the same as josh ie 0.5 tsp is the max. i've tried going upto i think 1 tsp. it's quite a surprise - the initial taste is real glum but with time it changes and improves (i reckon about 5 mins is needed).
i've settled on 0.25 tsp as a good balance.
ps, anymore ingredients to add to the list
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Hi Josh
The amount of salt I currently add is none!
Thats because I over salted the last batch of SnS base I made. Only salt I had at that time
was Coarse Sea Salt crystals and I added 1 desert spoon to the base not realising how
much more concentrated it was ::) Normally however I only add about 1/2 tsp
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I believe a teaspoon of salt is about 5 to 6 grams. Don't forget the medics advise only 6 grams of salt per adult per day.
I find half a teaspoon per portion is plenty and tastes about right to me.
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I agree salt does bring out the flavours in dishes when cooking, but when its used its used for "salting to taste" i believe everybodies tastes are different and each restaurant therefore is going to have a different flavour, subtle but different.
That goes for all seasonings/spices, thats why when you go to someone elses favourite restaurant, that they absolutely rave about, you usually come away disappointed and revert back to your own personal favourite.
I think we choose restaurants/takeaways because they serve our own particular sense of taste, we dont just walk into the first one we see and find its excellent, we usually wander around trying different ones over a period of time until we get that eureka moment.
And i dont care what anyone says cornflour is used purely as a thickening agent.
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I believe a teaspoon of salt is about 5 to 6 grams. Don't forget the medics advise only 6 grams of salt per adult per day.
I find half a teaspoon per portion is plenty and tastes about right to me.
Just weighed a teaspoon of Salt and it came out at 4 gms , I find anything less than about 1 tsp makes very little difference to the taste of the Curry it's only when I get to a tsp measure I can start to taste the flavour change . I would add my portion size is more than my local T/A . ;D Have you seen how much Salt goes in on the East Indian or Malik Video's :o that ain't no 1/4 or 1/2 tsp ;) And while on the subject of measures ( sorry to go a bit off topic JerryM ) when do you see a BIR Chef use a level tsp of this and a level tsp of that - you wont , if you want your food to taste like a BIR you need to cook like one but I do understand without the skill of a BIR Chef picking up 1/4 tsp of Salt accurately on a Chef's spoon ain't gonna be easy ;)
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Hi emin-j, I just measured out 1 teaspoon of Saxo table salt with my measuring spoons and poured the contents onto my digital kitchen scales - I got 6 grams!
I don't like over salty curries - above a certain threshold it starts to take over the taste for me. I guess we have different taste thresholds for salt.
I wasn't having a pop at you - I just think we should be aware of what we are putting in our curries and the likely effects it can have on health.
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So let me get this straight? Derek who said salt is VERY important is not saying how much he puts in? ;D
Everyone else has a range of half a tsp to 1 and a 1/2 tsp. Is this correct? I see about 2 tsp going in the main meal each time they cook on video lol! ;D
Ok a better question:
WHAT TYPE OF SALT do you use? I typically use Kocher or Sea Salt. There are alternatives to salt too but I won't go there right now. No its not artificial.
Cheers.
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Hi emin-j, I just measured out 1 teaspoon of Saxo table salt with my measuring spoons and poured the contents onto my digital kitchen scales - I got 6 grams!
I don't like over salty curries - above a certain threshold it starts to take over the taste for me. I guess we have different taste thresholds for salt.
I wasn't having a pop at you - I just think we should be aware of what we are putting in our curries and the likely effects it can have on health.
Hi PaulP , your teaspoon is 50% bigger than my teaspoon ;D I have Digital Scales too :P ;)
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Much, much worse....!!!
I use my nose and tongue! :o
Hi PaulP , your teaspoon is 50% bigger than my teaspoon ;D I have Digital Scales too
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u all need to get u're specs on - u clearly haven't watched the video enough - there are in fact very few dishes when salt (bin "8") is actually dipped into.
what i'd like to do is get some meaningful and useful information from the video's.
to complete this task i'd really appreciate u're best guess at what these (8 off) ingredients are or what ingredients (even pastes etc not just raw ingredient) u know of that are missing from the list. if u don't know of any then please just say so. most of the 8 off seem to be 1 off ingredients. some like jar_15, jar_21, jar_22 appear to be common to various dishes and are consquently the key ones for me.
ps mickdabass clearly has impeccable vision on the subject of salt pointing out that u don't even need any at dish cooking if it's already in the base (there is a previous post on the subject).
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many thanks to Secret Santa - i've just been watch some what appear to be v.recent jafflong video http://www.kitchenstreaming.com/play.php?vid=129 (http://www.kitchenstreaming.com/play.php?vid=129).
could not resist adding the above link down to the salt.
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Much, much worse....!!!
I use my nose and tongue! :o
Hi PaulP , your teaspoon is 50% bigger than my teaspoon ;D I have Digital Scales too
To weigh stuff with? No way am I eating at your place Mikka! ;D
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just to add a bit more by way of example.
today i made the lasan marinade and used mustard oil for the 1st time.
i am well sold on the stuff and feel it's a key BIR ingredient used probably more than we appreciate.
it's therefore the type of thing that i've clearly been missing and needs to go on the list above.
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have added the raw malik data in case it's of any use. i've not completed the exercise but it will give u a good idea of what i'm trying to do.
Nb the file is a spreadsheet ie "xls" and i had to change the file extension to jpg to get it to load. just use save link to download it and change extension back to xls.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/de96545b27ea62ffe94311dafc47b0c6.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/de96545b27ea62ffe94311dafc47b0c6.jpg)
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i am well sold on the stuff and feel it's a key BIR ingredient used probably more than we appreciate.
I totally disagree Jerry! This is a perfect example of where and how we are all too often being led up the garden path! :-\
Mustard oil may play a significant part in traditional Indian cooking, but not in BIR cooking. As far as I'm aware, mustard oil is not even allowed to be sold for human consumption in the UK (hence the labelling).
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CA,
i can see the label too and find it very difficult to come to terms with it.
i do feel it must only be used in small amounts as it's very powerfull stuff and u only want a subtle taste.
i got some on my hands and the flavour remained pretty much all afternoon - that flavour for me speaks BIR in volumes. it's the complete opposite to methi - which does nothing really for me yet it quite clearly is another key ingredient for most BIR chefs (not all though).
i obviously need to taste the tandoori chicken - which appears more like tikka recipe marinade.
the other trouble for me in not knowing traditional cooking is how to use it - other than in marinade. would u add a little to base for example.
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Hi Mikka, i normally use 1 tsp or less of rock salt per curry. has to be rock salt ! although i doubt this is as much as real bir use. i have seen them use a lot more, and almost a half chef spoon of spice mix ! they dont faff around with just a tsp of spice mix like many of us do
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Jerry is right it is mustard oil, the stuff was labelled "for external use only" in the early 90's, thatrs why bir's taste different today.
I think indian cooks still use it only on the sly because they dont want to be closed down for using an ingredient labelled unfit......
Spices of india sell it.
Most indian supermarkets/foodstores stock and sell it, most people in Bangladesh still cook with it.
A recipe told to me by my mate John who cooks and has cooked the best bir balti i have ever tasted....
Take a couple of onions and frey the f**k out of them, until they turn into a brown sludge, then add your spices and mustard oil and fry that together for 5 mins, add this mixture to your stock.
He also says that all this s**t about not browning your onions is b*****s, his words.
I can already imagine the kind of replies this will recieve lol.
And no Im not asking John to post here, he's computer illiterate and wouldn't waste his time, you'll just have to take it as said as i do and put up with it.
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whats the issue with mustard oil, its sold every where in brighton , i broght some. still not used it yet though.
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Mustard oil is the ingredient that gives that missing taste everbodies looking for.
Ive known about it for years but always thought it was a wind up, mainly due to the fact that is is labelled against internal use, but recently every top chef has started using it again, gordon ramsey, jamie oliver madder jaffrey......
Be carefull if you try and brown your onions, its not a simple task as ive just found out.
Too high a heat and they burn. which tastes bitter.
What your looking for is that hot dog/burger van onion thats soft, brown and sweet.
Once you get to that stage its just a case of mashing em up with your spoon.
Its a quite lengthy process and you have to stand by and watch all the time.
The mustard oil is going to have to be experimented with as far as volumes are concerned, John told me only to use a tsp of it as its strong.
Yet i have a recipe that calls for 4tbsps in a rogan josh that serves 4.
So on we go.
Oh and it enhances the flavour of your spices also.
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what i meant was , why is it considered unfit? i will google it ? who is this google chap anyway ? ;D :D
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Mustard oil is the ingredient that gives that missing taste everbodies looking for.
A bold statement that I don't agree with,
it doesn't give the missing taste that I'm looking for,
Mick
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Thanks Derek. I agree they pour the darned stuff in there on that wide flat spoon don't they. Thing is it doesn't taste salty, Yes you know its there but its not like 4 TBS salt on chips for example. That is offset by spices.
@ Peter.
Yes be careful with this stuff. (Mustard Oil). I ruined some Lamb but ate it owing to adding too much. Yes it has a place but it isn't everything like I was told. ;)
**** I'm closing in on what I'm looking for as regards taste now. I cooked a NEW base with some different ingredients and based on what we all know. Tastes pretty good really and to be honest if the base sauce doesn't taste good then what is the point of adding it to a meal?
She'll be comin round the mountain when she comes........................... ;D She'll be comin round the mountain when she comes........................... ;D
Ain't cookin fun!
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For me Mustard oil is for sure not the missing piece of the jigsaw. i do think it has a place and for sure it's something i've been missing. i'm thinking sort of 1 tsp max in marinades. i put 45ml in the lasan recipe so still waiting on this but it just seem too much for me. i think a touch in base is something i'm also going to try.
DD,
not tried rock salt - i just use cooking salt - i do use use rock salt in none curry cooking - is it really worth trying in curry.
Peter,
where are u suggesting to use "browning onions" (caramelised) - in base or in the dish. i have tried it in base before and i guess bunjarra is the same at dish frying stage.
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Mustard oil is the ingredient that gives that missing taste everbodies looking for.
Groan! ::)
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Tastes pretty good really and to be honest if the base sauce doesn't taste good then what is the point of adding it to a meal?
Except that it doesn't seem to work like that Mikka. There are plenty of people who have reported on the taste of real BIR bases and several have said that the taste is nothing special, and yet they like the final curry made with it!
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I used mustard oil way back almost 30 years ago when I bought my first curry book (Harvey Day) and as I recall it had quite a strong flavour. This is not something I associate with BIR. I imagine there's little likelihood that BIRs use mustard oil not least to keep costs down.
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Hmmm... I've not read the other posts here but isn't the obvious answer we don't know otherwise they wouldn't be missing?
I don't think I'm missing anything for my goals. My curries now are as good as the best takeaways around here (I've been using CA's recipes recently and they're excellent). I just feel I need to fine tune my technique to get consistency in results and expand my range of dishes.
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Ok this is what i have done today, i slowly fried 2 onions right down until they were very dark, it took about 40 mins of slow frying.
Then added this.
balti masala paste mix
4 tb Coriander seeds
2 tb White cumin seeds
2 2-inch pieces cassia bark
1 ts Fennel seeds
2 ts Black mustard seeds
4 Cloves
1/2 ts Wild onion seeds
1/2 ts Fenugreek seeds
1 ts Dry fenugreek leaves
10 Dry curry leaves
1 ts Green cardamom seeds
1/2 ts Lovage seeds
And fried with a couple of tsps veg oil and 1 tsp mustard oil for 5 mins.
This paste was set aside and 1 tbsp of paste added to the normal amount of garlic/ginger and fresh onion for my stirfry, along with the usual few ladles of sauce to finish off.
It made, as far as im concerned the best Balti i have ever had.
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Oh dear me.
So everyone is happy? I mean with what they cook? I'm not but I'm a damned strip nearer after today. In fact I'm willing to throw down a towel to any Indian Restaurant Chef provided that I know what the courses are?
I AM WILLING TO LOSE but.................... In some areas I will win.
Tired of sharing secrets because there isn't one.
Use your nose.
Anyway that bet is on.
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Bobby,
i understand exactly what u say. where i was coming from is what 1 yr on i can watch the malik video from i guess a far more experienced stand point. i feel i can work out pretty much all the ingredients they are using (as u rightly say known from this site).
there are these few that i've not got a clue on (other than perhaps the dreaded pataks). all the hope was that it might just jolt someone into perhaps getting a resonable guess at something.
i'm not sure what i'm searching for - i can't decide if it is common to all or dish specific. i think it's probably common. it could well be spice mix (this is probably my belief) but i needed to discount ingredient 1st.
from what u are saying and from the absence of any new leads i think it must be down to spice mix. having said that i kind of gell along the lines of peterandjens paste - that's the sort of thing i had in mind.
the spice mix hit's me as my local TA chef will not talk about it full stop - yet there are Oodles of mixes on the site.
all the best.
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i have been using an adapted version of the old smelly kd base recently. i really would advise it, as its very close to cooking with the real bir base i once purchased. the texture of the final curry is exactly like a real bir. i also believe it will be more suited to adding half a chef spoon of spice mix per curry. (like real bir do) a tsp of spice mix per curry is all you can get away with , using safron style bases. lets face it many members have posted new base recipies in the last year, but they are still closely resembling the safron base. Its about time we all realised the safron base is a time waster. if none of us are happy with our curry, and we all use safron derivatives, it just illustrates how crap that base is. my local bir would never use it, i know that for sure. it would really take the edge off there curries. there own base is bland and thin and pukey, but boy does it deliver a stonking madras. :P
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how many very thin unusually bland bases do we have on this site? there is an odd lack of bases which fall into this category. i know of none, and i have tried 8 at least.
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Have you Kris Dhillons sauce from the new curry secret, thats about the blandest one ive tried.
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admins base was the first one i tried, its much more spicy than any others ive found, infact just as it is some would consider it too hot for say making a korma or even a bhuna.
still after experimenting, even with my own version i have to say so far for me the base does give me my best final madras to date, which is why ive just made another batch.
the thing i see missing from my curries is the intitial lip sting of the chilli you get when you take your first mouthfull, my chilli allways seems too deep with momentary lapse before i feel the heat. Any restaurant ive gone to always has this initial sting in its curry.
maybe we are all correct on technique and spices its just perhaps are using the wrong brands or types.
Maybe we should all go out to the takeaway, bring our curry back and do a picture and taste comparison and debate on here. perhaps we could disect or re-engineer and all come to a conclusion.
Im waiting for the day when we realy have this written down and correct.
perhaps we can set a takeaway date for all on here to have such a debate?
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no i have not tried the latest kd base. how does it differ to the old one?
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the thing i see missing from my curries is the intitial lip sting of the chilli you get when you take your first mouthfull, my chilli allways seems too deep with momentary lapse before i feel the heat. Any restaurant ive gone to always has this initial sting in its curry.
Wow, this shows the difference in people's taste.
I regard the deep delayed taste/effect of chilli as a success, something to strive for. An initial lip sting tells me the chef doesnt know how to prepare chillies properly or they're using bad quality or strong powder.
If using fresh chillies i deseed, wash and soak in warm salty water to get rid of excessive harshness and get a more rounded flavour. So if you want the opposite i suppose you shouldnt do any of that! That way you should get the stinging sensation you get when you go to the loo or scratch your eye after handling chillies.
As for using chilli powder, which most places seem to use over fresh, try buying a cheaper/stronger brand rather than a quality one made from kashmiri chillies.
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Its odd but i find all the best bir madras have very little heat, and minimal chilly. i found the lower class bir use alot of chilly in madras to cover up the lack of taste. getting the right heat is sooo simple. just play around with different combinations of 1) chilly powder 2 or 3 tsps 2) green chilles chopped with extra chilly powder or 3) red and green chillies mixed and chopped , and no chilly powder. its usually green chilly that gives the bir heat you sound like you like
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DD,
i not sure "bland" is the right word unless that's what u mean - i'd call it moorish as opposed to soup. the real BIR base i got from my local TA (free i'd add - straight out of the pan in front of my eyes) was certainly not bland.
i think i know what u are getting at though - it was very different to how the std bases turn out. but u can get to it - the amount of oil, onion and thinness are critical. the staggering thing for me was that although the real BIR base is "thin" - it's not watery for sure.
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@Derik dansak, sorry i wouldn't have a clue i havn't tried the old one but if its anything like the new one its a bit bland.
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lets face it many members have posted new base recipies in the last year, but they are still closely resembling the safron base. Its about time we all realised the safron base is a time waster. if none of us are happy with our curry, and we all use safron derivatives, it just illustrates how crap that base is.
I don't get on with the Saffron base myself, but that is a load of rubbish. Saffron follows a very similar recipe to any good base I've tried. I just don't think it's great. On your next point, many of us are happy with our curries, myself included.
How are the more recent bases Saffron derivatives??? ??? After Saffron, SnS's derivative SnS June 2009 (Saffron's recipe refined with great results), Bruce Edward's, Ashoka's and CA's are the only popular bases that sping to mind. Other than SnS' June 2009 base they have NOTHING to do with Saffrons base.
In fact, ingredient and method wise, Saffron's base is incredibly generic and not dissimilar to any good base on this site (albeit slightly lacking IMO). It's absolute nonsense to suggest that the reason that people are not producing great curries from our recipes is because since Saffron, all of our base sauces are a derivative of a lacking base.
If that were the case why wouldn't we all be evangelising quality bases posted before Saffron? There were better and more popular bases on cr0 before Saffron, and there are better and more popular bases on cr0 now, not that this greatly effects people making sub standard curries. I've knocked out a few quality numbers using Saffron. It's good enough to do the trick.
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i have been using an adapted version of the old smelly kd base recently. i really would advise it, as its very close to cooking with the real bir base i once purchased. the texture of the final curry is exactly like a real bir
I know many members started with, and rate, Kris Dhillon's base, but I always found it (and her main curry recipes) distinctly lacking compared to other bases (and main curry recipes) available. I certainly never found the taste an/or texture to be anything like I've ever had from a BIR.
i also believe it will be more suited to adding half a chef spoon of spice mix per curry. (like real bir do)
But doesn't Kris Dhillon also specify using only small amounts (i.e. a teaspoon or so) of spices in her main curries? Half a chef's spoon is about 6 teaspoons isn't it?
a tsp of spice mix per curry is all you can get away with , using safron style bases
I think you can "get away with" adding as much, or as little, as you like and find acceptable to your pallate DD
lets face it many members have posted new base recipies in the last year, but they are still closely resembling the safron base
I think that is only correct in so far as the Saffron base, just like other bases here (available before or after the Saffron base) are anyway pretty similar because they have the same origins i.e. some combination of sources like Kris Dhillon, Bruce Edwards, Pat Chapman (etc) and restaurant observations.
Its about time we all realised the safron base is a time waster
I have to say that's a bit harsh DD! It (and other bases) is quite capable of producing very acceptable BIRlike curries, even if some subtleties may be missing compared with the best.
if none of us are happy with our curry, and we all use safron derivatives, it just illustrates how crap that base is
I think that's simply wrong DD. I believe many members are happy with their curries.
my local bir would never use it, i know that for sure it would really take the edge off there curries.
How do you "know for sure" DD?
there own base is bland and thin and pukey
I'm sure we shouldn't be aiming for that DD! ::)
Nevertheless, I do feel that something is still missing to enable us to reproduce top notch BIR curries. What specific suggestions do you have for the base then (other than the above statement which, sorry, I find somewhat ludicrous)?
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how many very thin unusually bland bases do we have on this site? there is an odd lack of bases which fall into this category. i know of none, and i have tried 8 at least.
I can't think why we would ever wish to produce a curry base which is "unusually bland" DD, other than that being how you (and others) might define what your (their) BIR uses? :-\
What, otherwise, is the point or rationale for it? It's like saying a good stock is a tasteless stock which would be, in my opinion, total crap. :-\
What it might suggest is that some BIRs can produce "stonking curries" without a good/tasty base?
Anyway, what would you suggest regarding making "an unusually bland base" DD? I can suggest a few things (like boiled and pureed onions, with no, or minimal, other spices, for instance)?
Off topic, I know, but I suppose it begs the question as to why BIRs use a curry base (here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4029.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4029.0)) and, particulalry, what constitutes a good curry base (the subject for a new topic?)? I've also used the term "bland", to describe a curry base, but I think I really mean "subtle"; with no particular taste dominating the others. For sure it should add something to the taste/smell/texture; otherwise, why bother?
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I regard the deep delayed taste/effect of chilli as a success, something to strive for. An initial lip sting tells me the chef doesnt know how to prepare chillies properly or they're using bad quality or strong powder
I agree with that Chinois. I think it is very easy to get "lip stinging" (just chuck chilli, of whatever type, in) but much harder to get a balance of heat also in the mouth and at the back of the throat. I believe pepper(corns) and ginger play a part in the latter.
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i'd love to get back on post.
however just in short i made KD1 for yrs before joining the site - i've never made it since. the new version KD2 is the same. don't get me wrong it's a very good base - it's just not up their now with the best.
i also feel the technique to cooking base is equally important as the ingredients.
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CA, i was not endorsing the whole of the kd book. just the base. I too never got on well with the recipies for the curries. But i have been pleasantly suprised with re visiting the base. In conjunction with all the new techniques i have picked up in the last 2 years since first using that book. In retrospect it probably suits my own style of cooking, largely copied from my local bir. namely, adding all the oil at final curry making stage. That could be why it seems to work better for me than safron base. I was possibly being a little harsh about the safron.
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Ive been using the Saffron Base for the past few weeks and find it a very versatile base I make Madras and Korma with excellent results , I would think this is just the sort of base a BIR would use.
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namely, adding all the oil at final curry making stage. That could be why it seems to work better for me than safron base
the saffron base (and for me any/all) don't have to have bags of oil in them - in fact for me less than 10% of the onion wt (ie 100ml in 800g onion) is as much oil as u need to leave in the base.
it would be impossible to cook for me without adding "most" of the oil at final curry frying stage too.
ps DD - given your current preference on the KD1 type of base u should try the CRO2 base - some real learning to be gained from it.
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does anyone know of an existing list of ingredients (other than above).
see the trouble is the search button on this topic don't really help.
there must be some things (ingredient, paste etc) that members used that are not listed.
or is that the list above is - the definitive list of all u need to cook BIR.
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Thanks jerry, any tips from old school members like you are always welcome !
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So you have to have been here a few years to be taken seriously? ;)
Jerry.
I did a search on this forum for Black Cumin. Results made up just one page which I found astonishing. ::)
This is why I'm still headed towards more traditional methods too. If you are not trying the whole batch of spices, cooking with them, seeing how they interact with other spices and oils how on Earth can you hope to cook a BIR curry?
On the nail Jerry, nice post.
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DD,
why i suggested it is that it's essentially onion only and produces red oil. i for a good while thought this was the madras way. i came to a dead end on it and now swear by yellow oil.
Mikka,
black cumin - emm. a friend in an Asian store told me which one to buy - the black variety. it is very good.
ps have added photo:
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/d2963cc30c2bca9d91923cf52a86ddbc.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#d2963cc30c2bca9d91923cf52a86ddbc.jpg)
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Hi Jerry. No this is what I have and use in various dishes. Look at the tails on the end. This is BLACK Cumin seed.
(http://www.savoryspiceshop.com/images/kalajeera.jpg)
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I agree Mikka: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2439.msg21149#msg21149 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2439.msg21149#msg21149)
Jerry's look like white cumin seeds to me.
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Oh hi Cory.
Do you use it and what in please?
I agree Mikka: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2439.msg21149#msg21149 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2439.msg21149#msg21149)
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Do you use it and what in please?
Garam Masala
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I use it whole in pilau. Better than regular cumin.
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Better than regular cumin.
A stronger and potentially more overpowering taste though I find (and more expensive).
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Mikka,
thanks for the photo - i clearly ain't got the black cumin and feel i need to give it a try. i ain't got the normal cumin either - there were 2 varieties in the shop and the difference was plain to see (perhaps a better brand of white cumin).
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You sure they are not fennel seeds Jerry (note the stripes)? :-\
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2b725ff36664648402155394e99038e1.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2b725ff36664648402155394e99038e1.jpg)
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Hi jerry, so where does the yellow oil come from? i assume its from the base oil reclaiming.
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CA,
i use fennel a lot. the cumin is cumin. u're quite right the photo is not good enough. I've looked at them this morning and note that the fennel is bigger and has more light and green contrast. the cumin is quite dark in comparison but not black - more a brown.
DD,
the colour of the oil is from reclaiming. i'm not exactly sure what makes the difference in colour but i think paprika and tom's/puree have a big part. if u look at maliks their oil is not red - it's what i call yellow (the colour it looks when it's on a spoon). for a long time i thought the red oil (like u get on u're TA tray) was what was needed in the base and produced the better tasting dish. i also thought that it was better suited to madras etc related dishes. i now realise that it's at dish frying stage where the colour of the BIR oil changes to what we see in the TA carton. if u look closely the oil in the carton is yellow whilst the oil in the dish is red (not for all dishes of course i guess korma would not be red for example).
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hi guys thought with all the talk of defining what the missing ingredients are has anyone tried e-mailing the owner of Maliks to ask if he could tell us the ingredients on show? there are no secrets as it is all on camera!
regards
gary :)
ps this is just a thought
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parker21,
i think SnS emailed them in the past without success. i was hoping we might have got a list of "mayby's". if we could get such a list to go with what we know it might just prompt a reply.
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Following on from gary's suggestion, better still, why not GO there, BUY and TRY their curries (and determine if they are actually any GOOD) and ASK them what the missing ingredients are. I imagine they would be only too happy to allow you to watch them cook your order!
I'm still troubled/amazed/astounded/perplexed....I'm not sure what the correct word is....that people are putting SO much effort into these curry webcams without having a clue what the curries taste like! And how anyone can possibly determine (with any certainty) what one white/brown/red/dark/light coloured ingredient is from a cam is totally beyond me. It seems like complete (and unnecessary and probably unhelpful) guesswork to me :-\
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CA,
i do have it on my list to do. it's going to be more like summer when i get there as our reason for visiting stoke is purely down to waterworld.
i know what u're saying on ask. trouble is my local TA is the best u'll find anywhere. i am very good customer and this would be the placed to help me if any BIR would. i remain very sceptical - on answering our needs - we are too close for comfort in a nutshell.
i also agree there is a limit to what can be gained from cams. the trouble is we have very few lines of enquiry open at the mo. as i say i can't really pinpoint what my gap is. given that most of what i do is from u it would be interesting in how u would describe your gap or is the ingredient list definitive or not.
if at least i can close the door on ingredient then i will know (i am pretty sure) my gap lies with spice mix and i need to take u're aka and follow Mikka's idea of a spice trail to better understand the intricacies.
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For me there is one huge missing thing. namely the smell that real TAs give off. especially the good bengual ones. i have never had a smell like that in 4 years of trad indian cookery, and 2 years bir cookery. when you remove the lid off your TA, bam it gives off a unique unmistakable odour. what the hell is that? a vegetable? surely it cant be from a dried spice? or can it? its not the base, as i have purchased real bir base from a top bengual bir. and my curry tasted the same as normal. oddly they had pumpkins in the bir kitchen i visited? although i doubt its significant.
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DD,
i am pretty sure the smell is down to smoke in the cooking which is down to heat. i have never been able to get the smoke in my kitchen. there is a chef and a stand in chef at my local TA - u know who's cooking well before u pass through the doors.
on the dried spice - i know it sounds wacky but i'm going to try Mikka's idea of tarragon next week. who knows but if u don't try. pumpkin is defo not BIR for me but each to there own.
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yes good idea to try tarragon. there are numerous other spices in many indian grocers i am curious about.
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yes good idea to try tarragon. there are numerous other spices in many indian grocers i am curious about.
I was a member of Pat Chapman's Curry Club when Bruce Edward's articles came out and as I recall the chemical analysis he got done on a Vindaloo contained some tarragon.
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For me there is one huge missing thing. namely the smell that real TAs give off. especially the good bengual ones. i have never had a smell like that in 4 years of trad indian cookery, and 2 years bir cookery. when you remove the lid off your TA, bam it gives off a unique unmistakable odour. what the hell is that?
Have you never got the smell when you've left a curry for later or when you've returned to your house after a while? I got whiffs of it when i was cooking every stage of the last curry i did with reclaimed oil. I even got it when i was frying only onion and green pepper in that oil. I tipped the pan so the vegetables came into contact with the direct heat which helped.
Granted it's not as strong a smell but i really think if i cooked a few curries, bagged them up with some naan and popadoms etc and took them to someone's house who hadnt been cooking they'd think it smelled the same as a BIR.
Eating some of my curry later makes me realize 'i done well'
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Hi chinois, yes i get the odd waft of bir in my kitchen, but not quite the same as that from some of the top notch curries i buy. i will try the spiced oil approach some time soon. although i am loathe to go down that road, as it adds more preparation to an already long list of stuff to do each week. (base, garlic puree, spice mixes, marinades, feck !! ) you know the drill ! so i wont bore everyone !
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Hi chinois, yes i get the odd waft of bir in my kitchen, but not quite the same as that from some of the top notch curries i buy. i will try the spiced oil approach some time soon. although i am loathe to go down that road, as it adds more preparation to an already long list of stuff to do each week. (base, garlic puree, spice mixes, marinades, feck !! ) you know the drill ! so i wont bore everyone !
Derek i dont do any more work to get my spiced oil, it's a natural byproduct.
If i make caramelized onions or bunjara i'll add lots of oil at the end and stir it in. Then if i precook some onions/peppers for a balti/dupiaza i'll use that oil and then return it to the caramelized onions. Then i use some of it to make the base, again reclaiming it and returning it.
I dilute it each time with fresh oil or ghee so i have enough to go round but it's so strong it's fine.
This time i marinated my lamb (shoulder, with bone) in lots of oil and a bit of tomato puree and chilli powder and even before i cooked it the oil tasted nice. So i took quite a lot out and started my spiced oil stash with that. By the final curry i cooked that session it'd been used about 5 times but even the first use was noticeably good.
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I have a feeling the reason a lot of restaurants reclaim oil is financial. Indian food needs a lot of oil to cook well and oil's not that cheap any more. Also restaurants are required to have fat disposed of, which often incurs a cost.
For a restaurant it makes sense to use the oil that's floating there on the base and a byproduct is that its flavoured already. I imagine that's the reason chefs arent often honest about it. They think it would be frowned upon as recycling food.
Keen, questioning chefs will have looked into it and have made their own minds up but a lot of what happens in BIRs is 'learning by repetition'. If your teacher did it like that, you do it like that. If the menu never changes it's not a learning/inquisitive work environment.
(This culture is similar in most english kitchens BTW, just in case a racism-flag-waver was about to pounce on their keyboard)
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there are numerous other spices in many indian grocers i am curious about.
DD/Stephen,
there's going to be some humble pie if tarragon does work out.
what are the "other spices" u're thinking of. i can ask at my local store as he is pretty clued up on what the owners buy.
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there are numerous other spices in many indian grocers i am curious about.
there's going to be some humble pie if tarragon does work out.
By whom and why Jerry?
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I would be very surprised if tarragon turned out to be the missing piece. I've never seen it mentioned in any Indian recipes and a google search revealed that it isn't used much in India even though a type does grow wild.
Last night I had a lamb korai from a new local restaurant/TA (The Saffron, Waterloo, Liverpool) and it was very nice and had the aroma and flavour that I think we are still looking for. I couldn't detect any tarragon at all. I tend to agree with others that there is something about the oil to be discovered yet.
Paul
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It could always be poppy seeds, they're apparently quite addictive. Also they're used in indian cookery.
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I would be very surprised if tarragon turned out to be the missing piece.
I agree Paul, unless you're tying to make a curry flavoured pizza topping! But I'm willing to eat humble pie! I would be absolutely ASTOUNDED if tarragon was the "missing ingredient"
For me, what is "missing" (still) is as follows:
- the depth of flavour
- the intensity of smell
- the savouriness
There is NO WAY, to my mind, that these things are addressed by adding tarragon, pumpkin, poppy seeds, cherries, mango chutney, lemon juice, chilli sauce, cabbage, or anything similar.
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Hi folks.
Pretty damned cold here with the storm 'n' all and outside cats are cold so I hope that two hot water botties help them some? (Hope so). >:(
Anyway, Tarragon.
Yeah it works. Not as good as would have hoped and let's not forget the "Personal taste" thing from our favorite TA's. I'm not totally convinced either but I'm willing to at least try something different, there is more to come on this but perhaps not here.
@ Cory. What is your favourite Ozzy restaurant and why?
Just because you see someone flash fry a dish and though you may watch for many hours you'll never truly know what went into the dish despite what you are told.
Life's a journey, so is cooking.
All is good in both.
Cheers.
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CA,
Derek Dansak suggested he had a few ingredients on his mind - i was interested what they were. my thinking always being that it may not be directly an answer but it could unfold additional clues.
for example i'm currently pondering onion seed and mustard seed. both i've used before but i'm beginning to think (no one has added a new ingredient except poppy seed) it may be just down to how we use what we already know.
the humble pie is that i tend to detect across the forum a tendency to poo poo ideas straight off without trying them. if the answer was so visible then we would not be here.
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Anyway, Tarragon.
Yeah it works
What do you mean by "it works" please Mikka?
Not as good as would have hoped
And what did you hope for?
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the humble pie is that i tend to detect across the forum a tendency to poo poo ideas straight off without trying them. if the answer was so visible then we would not be here.
Jerry,
I hear what you're saying, but I feel that this frequently recurring statement that "you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it" is pretty much total nonsense. It is totally impractical (and undoubtedly misguided) to go and try every hair brain idea put forward on the forum.
I would like to think that sensible people would rather use their experience, knowledge and intuition to determine which suggestions are worthy, or not worthy, of pursuing. I think to blindly try new ingredients (e.g. tarragon, poppy seeds, etc) simply because an Asian store sells them, or simply because an untried and untested BIR with a webcam uses them, is, to me a rather futile (shotgun) approach.
We should also bear in mind that Asian stores primarily supply the needs of the local Asian community and will therefore reflect traditional Indian cooking needs as much as, if not more than, BIR cooking needs. So, to my mind, there are plenty of red herrings to be had in an Asian store.
Regarding "gaps", I am not clear what you think mean by them? But, for me, the "gap" is the difference between the taste, smell and texture of my curries compared those of the best BIRs (which is where I want to be). It is not necessarily an arbitrary "gap" in my knowledge of spices and/or cooking technique (which, I get the impression, it is for you?).
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By the way, please add mustard oil to the list (and onion seeds, mustard seeds, lemon juice and waxy potatoes)
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i have ruled out worcester sauce
If I'm not mistaken, I thought you (and Jerry) spent months promoting its use DD? I think because your favourite BIR uses it in a madras? Why have you now ruled it out? :-\
It's actually one of the more promising suggestions (i.e. savoury, sweet, tamarind, molasses) to my mind!
(PS: The quote from DD was from another thread but it better belongs here)
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CA,
your definition of gap is exactly as mine.
i am already sorted on lemon juice (must be dressing) and waxy pots (optional ingredient for the discerning - i just use normal pots when in the spec).
the "knocking" does affect your mindset both as a group and individually. it personally makes me think, "why bother" to help members. there are ways of making suggestions and constructive comment that don't have to slice the member in 2.
alas my brain only works on the shotgun approach and i don't see any better method being of interest or offerred.
i quite agree on the asian store and red hearings. the trouble is that one of them that i visit a lot has a catering isle.
don't get me wrong i'm a very happy chappy - my curries are very close (as u must know). if u can picture a massive plum of smoke and a garage full of smoke then u understand how i can be so happy.
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your definition of gap is exactly as mine
I'm not certain that it is Jerry? What attributes would you say you're missing in your curries? Being clear about these should help you become more targetted and selective in your approach.
the "knocking" does affect your mindset both as a group and individually
I understand what you're saying Jerry. Equally frustrating, for some members I'm sure, is when we appear to go round and round in circles, clutching at straws, retreading and rehashing old ground and getting nowhere, in particular, fast (I say this because I know that several long standing members have withdrawn from the forum because of it)
Most frustrating of all, I'm sure, is when conjecture is often put forward as hard fact (I'm no doubt also guilty of this!).
Nevertheless, I don't think that vigorous critique should be confused with, and misinterpreted as, "knocking". There are some things that members know, or strongly suspect, are plain wrong. And they should say so, I believe.
alas my brain only works on the shotgun approach and i don't see any better method being of interest or offerred
There are many alternatives being offered, not least of all to get into your local BIR and find out first hand.
i quite agree on the asian store and red hearings. the trouble is that one of them that i visit a lot has a catering isle
Many do and cater for several groups of punters and restaurants.
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hi chinois, sounds like a nice bit of oil reclaiming going on in your kitchen. good effort mate.
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so why did i drop worcester sauce? good question. As i learnt more about the taste i was after, i could taste it was taking me further away from the taste i want. leaving it out was an improvement for my madras. however it took a few months to discover this as it is tasty stuff. but not bir madras style, to be honest. hopefully new members can read this an not make the same mistake. WORCESTER SAUCE IS NOT PART OF THE MISSING TASTE OF TRUE BIR MADRAS. there are better ways to sour a curry. eg lemon.
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Has anyone tried golden syrup? This is used in a couple of traditional Chasni recipes and apparently is used a lot in Bangladeshi cooking. My favourite BIR is run and owned by Bangladeshi's and the make the best Pathia I have had. I will be trying syrup in my next Pathia.
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I'm not certain that it is Jerry? What attributes would you say you're missing in your curries? Being clear about these should help you become more targetted and selective in your approach.
the definition being " "gap" is the difference between the taste, smell and texture of my curries compared those of the best BIRs".
where i am is that i'm sorted on the smell and texture. my gap is in the taste - describing it is not that easy other than flavour is lacking. i will try and put it into words next time i do a side by side. the only example i can come up with is the recent experience with mustard oil - it sort of brought the dish to life.
where i've got no direct BIR comparison say 976bar's kashmiri then i'm totally satisfied with my dish. i can even swap the spice mix from say bassar to kushi and it still tastes very good.
when i compare other dishes say admins jalfrezi or ashoka bhuna korahi there is something just not quite right. given the korahi recipe is from a BIR then i very much agree i'm in the right ballpark but something is just leaving me short of the best BIR.
i personally think there is something added to the spice mix which sort of brings the dish to life. msg does this too but it's not what i'm missing. adding the garlic & ginger powder was a step in the right direction. i also add 1/4 tsp of all purpose seasoning (re Secret Santa's suggestion). this has been a step in the right direction.
i think i listed what i'm going to try elsewhere but list again for completeness:
fry cardamom
crushed red chilli
bunjarra @ end
msg
onion seed
mustard seed (did not like taste when eaten raw)
black salt
mustard oil
UHT milk
white/black cumin.
i also intend to make u're tikka but adding mustard oil. i think the carryover of the tikka into the dish may sort the masala type dishes but not for the more spice related dishes ie madras. i am sorted on plain curry sauce though (thanks to Secret Santa).
i've even asked my wife who agrees there is difference but she can't put any light on it either. she and the lad like mine better but u know as i do we are after BIR and nothing else will do.
if it's not spice mix then it's oil. i feel i could improve my reclaimed a little but again pin pointing what's needed is worse than peering into spice mix.
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WORCESTER SAUCE IS NOT PART OF THE MISSING TASTE OF TRUE BIR MADRAS. there are better ways to sour a curry. eg lemon.
I'm going to ignore the bit about lemon ;D but that aside I'm certain BIRs do use Worcester sauce in 'some' of their curries. But almost certainly not in the madras as you say. I've seen a bottle of Worcester being used in Malik's (via the webcam) but I couldn't tell what the curry was.
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No Corry you first please if you would?
"@ Cory. What is your favourite Ozzy restaurant and why?"
As to what I had hoped for? Something different! ;)
Anyway, Tarragon.
Yeah it works
What do you mean by "it works" please Mikka?
Not as good as would have hoped
And what did you hope for?
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No Corry you first please if you would?
"@ Cory. What is your favourite Ozzy restaurant and why?"
"Hungry Jacks" cos it's cheap and tasty.....and "the burgers taste better at Hungry Jacks" ;)
....but, if you're asking about Indian restaurants, I don't have one. Why? Because whilst some Aussie Indian restaurants are OK (though many are dire!), and serve quite enjoyable food, the curries taste nothing like decent BIR curries. They are not, therefore, something I wish to replicate...far from it.
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No Corry you first please if you would?
"@ Cory. What is your favourite Ozzy restaurant and why?"
"Hungry Jacks" cos it's cheap and tasty.....and "the burgers are better at Hungry Jacks" ;)
.........it takes two hands to handle a whopper!.............apparently...do they still use that ?
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.........it takes two hands to handle a whopper!.............apparently...do they still use that ?
I'm not sure I've seen that one....advertisers do have an amusing habit of getting themselves into a little strife though ;D
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Hi secret santa, yes i was careful to specify madras only, as i know it is used by some bir. And i new someone would put in there two penny worth, tee hee ! although i can say the bangledesh bir, i frequent has no worcester sauce in the kitchen. do you use it still?
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OMG! :o
You cannot find a single Indian Restaurant that you like? Come on Cory. I know what you mean about it seeming different but I have to say I find that just,.......... well odd.
I've seen people knock food over here but you have to look, learn and find out. They are there, just have to find them.
I do agree about the cost however. That's a major deterrent if there ever was one.
For me I'm on herbs, or 'ERBS' as they call them here. Without going into it too much I'm working on an additive that I can add to the main dish (Vindy) to make it like what I get from a TA. I'm not far off frankly there are four components and I haven't a clue what the fourth is!
Highly annoying but I've found three so far. Hope that clears things up. ;D
Go look for one. Can't believe you cannot find one single place that has good food?
"Hungry Jacks" cos it's cheap and tasty.....and "the burgers taste better at Hungry Jacks" ;)
....but, if you're asking about Indian restaurants, I don't have one. Why? Because whilst some Aussie Indian restaurants are OK (though many are dire!), and serve quite enjoyable food, the curries taste nothing like decent BIR curries. They are not, therefore, something I wish to replicate...far from it.
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i had TA this week and was quite pleased. i need to do side by side before deciding further.
my thoughts were that the balance or proportions are different.
more chopped onion. i use 1 chef per portion and probably need to x2
more garlic. i use 1 htsp g/g paste. again x2 or even try adding extra garlic. need to revisit pre fried.
less tom puree. i use 1 tbsp. need to use say 1 htsp.
very subtle spice mix. i use ~ 1tsp and need to try say 0.5 tsp.
slice of tom. i never add but always find. need to do same.