Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: emin-j on December 14, 2009, 08:48 PM
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Hi All ,
Looking back through previous posts even back to 2005 it's easy to see that the same Questions , Recipes , and Idea's are still being tried or asked and we are almost in 2010 :o I am a relative newcomer to the Curry Scene and really enjoy the forum but to me it seems we are getting nowhere and just chasing our tails :-\ Has the elusive BIR ' taste ' been achieved ? Can anyone honestly say their Curries are as good if not better than their T/A ? I have concentrated for the past Year only on Madras and very recently Chicken Korma ( thanks to George for Korma recipe ;) ) and on many occasions my Madras Curries have bettered my local T/A but not quite matched our favourite T/A , can anyone list any Positive points that they have learned in their quest for BIR perfection ?
such as -
1. Do you need to Flambe a Curry to achieve ' the taste ' I think not and that is from experience in my favourite T/A kitchen watching my Madras being made also backed up by Spice as Nice 's recent kitchen experience plus much time spent by me watching Malik 's and East Indian T/A 's webcam.
I think we need to start putting down some ' definite's ' rather than clutching at straws and after 5 - 6 years surely we have The answers ???
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Looking back through previous posts even back to 2005 it's easy to see that the same Questions , Recipes , and Idea's are still being tried or asked and we are almost in 2010 :o
That's very true EminJ. I think it is largely to do with the continual arrival of new members to the forum and/or the BIR curry cooking scene. Hence the many repeated questions and "retreading of old ground"
I am a relative newcomer to the Curry Scene and really enjoy the forum
Q.E.D. EminJ! You will find that the topic of THIS thread is, in fact, an often repeated topic too! :P
but to me it seems we are getting nowhere and just chasing our tails :-\
I'm not sure that's strictly true eminj. There are a lot of repetitions, and circular debates, for sure. However, I'm sure many members (particularly "novices") have learnt heaps from this forum and that their BIR curry making abilities have improved, no end, as a consequence.
I suppose more "experienced" members reach a limit with what they can achieve and, therefore, experience some "frustrations" with "ongoing progress" or apparent lack of.
I do agree that, without a breakthrough of some sort (which, for me, would be the contributions to the forum of a proficient BIR chef, or two.....or, better still, working side-by-side with a proficient BIR chef, or two) many of us may have reached our own personal limit.
Has the elusive BIR ' taste ' been achieved ?
I can honestly say that I can produce the taste and smell of a BIR curry...I'm sniffing it on my shirt now, in fact! ;)
Can anyone honestly say their Curries are as good if not better than their T/A ?
I can honestly say that, in my opinion, my curries (and a range of them) are up there with many BIRs...but, to my mind, are not up there with the best (this is where my personal limit is at, right now...I want them to be up there with the best)
Can anyone list positive points that they have learned in their quest for BIR perfection ?
I think answers to this question would be very interesting. I'm sure, for most members, they would be numerous.
I think we need to start putting down some ' definite's ' rather than clutching at straws and after 5 - 6 years surely we have The answers ???
That's a laudable aim emin but, as you've probably recognised, members of this forum (and I suspect any cooking forum) cannot agree on hardly anything!
I suspect there ARE no definites, only opinions! For instance, I believe the "myths" document is a myth in itself! :P You will ALWAYS find someone who disagrees! That's in the nature of cooking, perhaps? ::)
It seems to me that we each have our own experiences and opinions and use those as the basis for cooking our curries. I guess it is the refinement of these opinions, techniques, etc, through discussions on this (and other) forum (s), that constitutes the learning that members gain from this (and other) forum (s)?
So "Are we there yet?".......I suspect many members have barely begun, some are well on their way, some have arrived at their own personal destination (which, I might add, are many and varied) and some will continue to strive to arrive at their own personal destination...
Would be very interesting to see others' views......
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I'd pretty much agree with CA's response.
I too would say my curries are as good as many I've had from BIRs, but not as good as the best.
But that's where it get's subjective. For example, Secret Santa is adamant on recreating a 1980's curry (which I for one have never had). Others are of the opinion that the no-base, "nouveau" Indian cuisine is what they are seeking to recreate, and prefer that particular taste.
We can't even agree on what goes into a base!
I also agree that the next breakthrough will be from a BIR chef or two as a regular, open contributor to CR0. A number of members seem to be having success with building relationships and having them share. Maybe its time to take the ask to the next level. (Spice-as-nice?) I've even suggesting that a PAID engagement might be an option.
I found a website for the Bangladeshi Restauranteurs Guild: http://www.gbruk.org.uk/ (http://www.gbruk.org.uk/)
Malik's videos etc give us some gleaning of info, but not a single member in a 50 mile radius has been able to ascertain whether their curries are good or crap!
-- Josh
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If I may? ::)
Just because a recipe is posted it doesn't mean that particular recipe will be liked by everyone. Are we there yet? I'm not, I want absolute perfection, absolute, nothing less.
I trust most people think they could walk into a job at a restaurant judging from replies? I couldn't. But I will perfect 7 dishes this year to my tastes.
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I trust most people think they could walk into a job at a restaurant judging from replies?
That seems to me to be a bit of a strange comment/interpretation Mikka? I don't think Josh is suggesting that and neither am I!
What I was trying to suggest is that, for me personally, I feel that I need to work AND LEARN from BIR chefs to further develop my BIR cooking skills. After all, there is only so much one can acquire from reading about how to do practical things (whether they be sports, carpentry, curry cooking, etc, etc......)
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:) On the contrary I think Josh pointed out some good things and I agree with them too. I think I did ask some time what dishes were said to be as good as or as good as can get so newcomers could be forwarded to them straight away, even me too. (I know this is a gray area).
So could we? I have a preference for bases from what I can tell at the moment, so only a quick look through will tell me these days if I should try it but its not so easy for new people. I'm just trying to cook damned good Indian food regardless of heritage frankly so my thought process on it changes which makes it a little more difficult, I don't have a BIR for instance...
Hmmm Having thought about that I'm wasting my time here then ;D
No worries but as above I think it would help new people.
That seems to me to be a bit of a strange comment/interpretation Mikka? I don't think Josh is suggesting that and neither am I!
What I was trying to suggest is that, for me personally, I feel that I need to work AND LEARN from BIR chefs to further develop my BIR cooking skills.
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Thank's for your replies Guys all very interesting ;)
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I just want to add that I've tried a lot of recipes and probably 80% of them are in fact really good. ;) From here in particular there have been a few but two of note.
I liked CA's Vindaloo and Bruces base, Which I prefer at the moment because it allows for movement in spices. There are others too which I cannot recall at the moment? I like my own food tremendously and I think I pull it off so far as I can tell but there is still something not right with the final product.
It's not that I am not cooking it properly. A minute here or there doesn't matter so long as you don't burn anything or overcook your meat produce, it's something I am not adding now. That's all there is to it. Something simple, something that I know but I cannot nail it. For my final personal Vindaloo to be correct I have to find what it is that I'm not adding?
I cooked what I thought was a stormer last week. Heck it was good! ;D
But placed next to theirs... Well you get where I am coming from on it? The wrong vinegar? Perhaps.... Hot Mango Chutney defo delivers a punch. I'm looking for something small now but very big by comparison. Next week could see me cracking it having thought a little about it.
Anyway long and short. YES there are some DAMNED FINE curries on here that should be recommended to people, and personal choice will always be prickly.
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Malik's videos etc give us some gleaning of info, but not a single member in a 50 mile radius has been able to ascertain whether their curries are good or crap!
i really don't like stoke (that's the fc - football club). i will make an effort though to get the car to malik's without the family suspecting. it'll be over the hols when i annually visit my beloved homelands.
as for the post is it the royal we or the individual we that's being sort. there's a big difference for me.
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Hi JerryM ,
My post came about by following links in a couple of threads and then realizing the links were going back to 2005 ! And the info then was still current info now :o It just got me thinking in the last five years have any real steps been made towards ' the taste ' , but as CA rightly pointed out , many individuals Curries have improved greatly in that time .
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I can honestly say that I can produce the taste and smell of a BIR curry...I'm sniffing it on my shirt now, in fact! ;)
Really!?
I find that hard to believe, unless you're leaving something out in the recipes that you've posted recently.
They're nice curries, and I like them, but they aren't even close to having the taste or smell that I'm after. They match current BIR standards but, that's little comfort to me as I find current BIR standards lacking.
How can I explain this?
Imagine that you own a mini car. It's a great little car and it does everything you want it to. I on the other hand have owned a Jaguar XJS. Now there's no doubting that they both get you from A to B, they both have four wheels, and they keep you warm and dry on your journey. The problem (we pretend) is that you've never seen a jaguar XJS and I, because of my lack of engineering skill, can't build one to show you just what you're missing.
So, I have the double frustration of not only not being able to drive the Jag any more because it isn't available, but I also can't build one either, to show you, because of my lack of knowledge.
That for me is the difference between new BIR curries, which your recipes match, and old style BIR curries.
So when you say you can reproduce the taste and smell of BIR curries, I can only repeat what you once said in response to one of my posts...B*ll*cks! ;)
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So when you say you can reproduce the taste and smell of BIR curries, I can only repeat what you once said in response to one of my posts...B*ll*cks! ;)
How can I explain this?
Well, face it SS, given that you haven't even seen my car, never mind driven it, you're really not in a very good position to tell are you! ;)
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Sad...........
It's about food.
I'm not interested in who thinks who is the best? I'm interested in who wants to talk about Indian food cooking and how it could get better!?
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I'm interested in who wants to talk about Indian food cooking and how it could get better!?
Ummmm, but Mikka, it IS about food! It's about defining "the taste" (and SS appears to be saying it is different things to different people...and it's changed over the years....and I agree) and about obtaining that "taste".
It is also consistent with EminJ's original question about whether anyone can achieve that "taste". Alas, few of us are really able to adequately verify what others claim...unless we sit down and eat what they produce!
So where's the problem? :-\
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I agree CA.
Looking at pictures and recipes is one thing. Seeing a video is another. Actually tasting someone else's efforts is the corker isn't it.
I wish I were nearer some of you. It would be fun to get together and hammer out what each of us like and work on the math to get it done. Oh well. ;D
It is also consistent with EminJ's original question about whether anyone can achieve that "taste". Alas, few of us are really able to adequately verify what others claim...unless we sit down and eat what they produce!
So where's the problem? :-\
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I used to worry (how sad ;D ) that we would not get the real bir taste. however recently i tried about 10 different madras from all the ta,s in my area to work out how varied real bir madras can be. i concluded that many are well within our reach. I also concluded that many bir produce almost the same product(madras) , with the same flavour, and hard to tell apart. its just a matter of time until we stumble upon the right recipe to get that subtle tomato tangy taste which seems to be present in real bir madras. the average bir madras is nothing extrordinary. many i tried were little more than a standard tomatoey onion , pepper style base (the old KD base) with light coriander spicing, and a hint of garlic. i think the safron base may have an inbuilt issue, which is that it is not good, at producing a nice underlying tomato flavour in a curry. i believe the original KD base from her older book is much better for a nice tomato bir madras flavor. over xmas i will test this theory, that the kd base is indeed better at tomatoey style madras. the safron base is very good at all other curries, but not madras i believe. I am sure in the next 1 to 3 years we will be much nearer to our goal. I know i am not that far off now, producing curry which is often fresher and more tasty than real TA's. but not identical i must admit.
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I used to worry (how sad ;D ) that we would not get the real bir taste. however recently i tried about 10 different madras from all the ta,s in my area to work out how varied real bir madras can be. i concluded that many are well within our reach. I also concluded that many bir produce almost the same product(madras) , with the same flavour, and hard to tell apart. its just a matter of time until we stumble upon the right recipe to get that subtle tomato tangy taste which seems to be present in real bir madras. the average bir madras is nothing extrordinary. many i tried were little more than a standard tomatoey onion , pepper style base (the old KD base) with light coriander spicing, and a hint of garlic. i think the safron base may have an inbuilt issue, which is that it is not good, at producing a nice underlying tomato flavour in a curry. i believe the original KD base from her older book is much better for a nice tomato bir madras flavor. over xmas i will test this theory, that the kd base is indeed better at tomatoey style madras. the safron base is very good at all other curries, but not madras i believe. I am sure in the next 1 to 3 years we will be much nearer to our goal. I know i am not that far off now, producing curry which is often fresher and more tasty than real TA's. but not identical i must admit.
Nice one DD , unless you have a side by side Curry tasting session I don't think there's any reliable way of comparing home cooked Curries to T/A Curries. ???
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i agree mate. it takes a brave man to do a side by side comparison ! or a foolish man !! ;D if i ever make a good replica, i will know instantly. it will be one of lifes great moments ;)
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I'm 99.9% sure our bases are as good as the average BIR. Lots of people here have tasted a restaurant base and reported it to be very similar to ours. Essentially no matter how many videos you watch or recipes you read they are almost all based around boiling up onions with a bit of extra veg and adding spices. The result is usually a thin lightly spiced onion soup. The key is in the cooking. If it was easy everyone would do it. The truth is most of the head chefs have been cooking curries for 20 - 30 years and will have been learning about spices since the age of about 3. They all cook by eye and instinctively know when to add which spice or garlic without burning it all. When I add garlic to hot oil it is usually black in about 30 seconds and needs to be binned and I start again. I'm not convinced there will ever be a Eurika moment when everthing suddenly comes together. I think practice makes perfect and most of us need about another 15 years practice.
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I'm 99.9% sure our bases are as good as the average BIR. Lots of people here have tasted a restaurant base and reported it to be very similar to ours. Essentially no matter how many videos you watch or recipes you read they are almost all based around boiling up onions with a bit of extra veg and adding spices. The result is usually a thin lightly spiced onion soup. The key is in the cooking. If it was easy everyone would do it. The truth is most of the head chefs have been cooking curries for 20 - 30 years and will have been learning about spices since the age of about 3. They all cook by eye and instinctively know when to add which spice or garlic without burning it all. When I add garlic to hot oil it is usually black in about 30 seconds and needs to be binned and I start again. I'm not convinced there will ever be a Eurika moment when everthing suddenly comes together. I think practice makes perfect and most of us need about another 15 years practice.
chriswg , I think you would need to find what you consider your favourite T/A then use their Base and Curry recipe exactly to stand any chance of replicating it , I do believe you can not mix different Base's with different Curry Recipes for the best results.
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I did that with Zaffrons and my base is identical to theirs plus I know the ingredients in the Madras are the same as they use, plus I watched it being made. The first one I made came closest, the ones since seem to be floating further away. I wrote down everything at the time and published the recipe but I guess the method I saw was hard to put in writing.
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DD,
it's an interesting thought. for info when i made the kD1 base i always added x2 on the tomatoes ie 2 tins. i'm not convinced (although i've not explored it) and will keep it in mind (ie to revisit KD1 with what i know now). in the KD the tomato does come through stronger down to the absence of other veg.
i'm currently having good success adding chilli sauce (ashoka south indian garlic). i'm just getting a tad double hit from the vinegar (in the sauce) and lemon juice (added at cooking). i'm being very picky though - it's a near as dam it there. i'm hoping the chef at my local TA might just help.
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My post came about by following links in a couple of threads and then realizing the links were going back to 2005 ! And the info then was still current info now
emin-j,
i've found these early posts tantalising too - as u say still current now. where are the people now or more important how are their curries - MarkJ for example he seems to have got very close. Pete seemed to know quite a lot too.
for me the biggest pleasure is the smell in my garage which lasts for about 3 days after cooking. simply brill on a monday morning at 7.00 am.
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My post came about by following links in a couple of threads and then realizing the links were going back to 2005 ! And the info then was still current info now
emin-j,
i've found these early posts tantalising too - as u say still current now. where are the people now or more important how are their curries - MarkJ for example he seems to have got very close. Pete seemed to know quite a lot too.
for me the biggest pleasure is the smell in my garage which lasts for about 3 days after cooking. simply brill on a monday morning at 7.00 am.
Hi Jerry , Yes at times it seemed from those early posts they had the answer to ' the taste ' but 5-6 years on we seem not much closer if any ??? OH ! and that smell Jerry , lasts for three days , in the living room , bedroom , wardrobe , best shirts ;D ;D
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if i ever make a good replica, i will know instantly.
DD I couldn't agree more. None of this 'oh I definitely had a hint of the taste in this one', or 'I definitely caught a brief waft of the smell in this one'. Nahhh, when (if) I get it right it will be there, bang in your face, no disputing it.
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I can honestly say that I can produce the taste and smell of a BIR curry...I'm sniffing it on my shirt now, in fact! ;)
I find that hard to believe, unless you're leaving something out in the recipes that you've posted recently
I presume, from your above statement, that you have tried my recipes SS? If so, is there anything that YOU have left out (of either my base or my main dish recipes) such as my spice mix and/or my spiced oil?
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Secret Santa, CA,
with some hesitation i feel a need to explore this a bit. the jag and mini analogy works real good for me. it's quite deep and needs thinking about but i think best describes where i'm at too - in the mini. mine has wide lowish profile tyres and few more extras - it's particularly quick. i get the BIR smell all the time (only in the garage) and i know this must be the same as CA (i've followed his instructions).
i don't feel it that helpful to say where the mini is in the BIR hireracy - it's clearly not at the top. i've been trying to pinpoint gaps to produce a step change. i can't find any. CA's use of the best is relevant - i only like 1 TA in warrington (like DD i've search and relied on word of mouth - there are many poor imitations of the real mc coy these days).
the jag i know to be Bangladeshi. the trouble is for me i can't fathom where the gaps are other than recipe refinement in some way.
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I guess what we need is an Indian chef watching us cook our curries to pinpoint exactly where we are going wrong. Or maybe we set up a CR0 meetup group and invite (or pay) a chef to come along to give demos. I'd be happy to pay 20 - 30 pounds to get this solved once and for all.
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Now were getting somewhere ;D
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I'd be happy to pay 20 - 30 pounds to get this solved once and for all
Ditto.
If I was in the UK, I would have tried that a long time ago!
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Not here again :-\
That won't happen. It's been tried before time and time again. Distance and time off are just too large factors.
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DD I couldn't agree more. None of this 'oh I definitely had a hint of the taste in this one', or 'I definitely caught a brief waft of the smell in this one'. Nahhh, when (if) I get it right it will be there, bang in your face, no disputing it.
Hey SS,
I disagree. There are degrees to everything. If you were trying to replicate a BIR curry using one recipe with a standard base / main from this site and another using a recipe for Scones, I'm pretty sure you'd say that the recipe from this site had the taste / smell of a BIR to a huge degree! It's not a true or false situation but rather an incremental process.
Cheers
BB
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That won't happen. It's been tried before time and time again. Distance and time off are just too large factors.
I don't agree. It just takes one (reputable) member to identify a willing BIR, go in with a camera, notepad, and a set of pre-defined forum-agreed goals/questions and get the job done. And enough knowledge to call bullsh*t if we're being led down the wrong path.
It doesn't need to be a group grope. Money buys most things these days.
It would need to be defined "typical" top-drawer BIR. No nouveau-cuisine, or regional oddity.
At the end of the day, the issue may in fact be an insurmountable one - like volume.... but at least we'd know.
One thing got me thinking the other day. JerryM made a comment that our web-enabled collective knowledge may be greater than any individual BIR.
-- Josh
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DD I couldn't agree more. None of this 'oh I definitely had a hint of the taste in this one', or 'I definitely caught a brief waft of the smell in this one'. Nahhh, when (if) I get it right it will be there, bang in your face, no disputing it.
Hey SS,
I disagree.
And I disagree with your disagreement! :P
1. I used to have curries from BIRs in the 80's with a very special taste and smell.
2. Somewhere in the early nineties that taste and smell gradually disappeared from any of the BIRs I visited.
3. None of the curries I've made from this site have the taste or smell (including CA's made to spec)
4. I know the taste is still around somewhere, and I haven't just lost my sense of smell or taste, because I had a bombay aloo at a BIR over a year ago with a slightly toned down but very definite same taste as the 80's curries. Strangely none of the other curries (it was a buffet) had the taste and none, including the Bombay aloo, had the smell.
So for me it really isn't just a matter of degree as you suggest. In truth, to pick up on your analogy, the curries on this site and current BIR curries may as well be scones for all they achieve towards my idea of the taste and smell.
And, as a summary, for me the BIR curry smell is not the spices hitting the hot oil, it's not the first ladle of base hitting the pan, it's not the smell as you enter a BIR, it's not the smell as you walk past a BIR, it's not the smell of your own kitchen or clothes after a curry making session. It IS (or I should say WAS) the smell of the finished BIR curry. It was strong, and unmistakable. It no longer exists! :'(
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We probably have the answers on the Forum josh we just need to get them all together in the right order . :)
Cancel that , just read SS post :'(
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Cancel that , just read SS post :'(
;D
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None of the curries I've made from this site have the taste or smell (including CA's made to spec)
Have you actually made my curries totally to spec (i.e. using my spice mix...not BE's or another...and using my spice oil...not oil from the curry base, deep fat fryer, skimmed from a curry, or another)? If so, perhaps "technique" is more important than I have, so far, given it credit for.
I ask so that I am (we are) perfectly clear about what you've actually tried and not tried (cos therein might lie some answers!)
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for me the BIR curry smell is not the spices hitting the hot oil, it's not the first ladle of base hitting the pan, it's not the smell as you enter a BIR, it's not the smell as you walk past a BIR, it's not the smell of your own kitchen or clothes after a curry making session. It IS (or I should say WAS) the smell of the finished BIR curry. It was strong, and unmistakable. It no longer exists! :'(
But surely the smell of the final curry is created by the former processes (e.g. frying the spices and adding the curry base) SS? And I imagine the smell (and taste, for that matter) that is developed is not quantised but is on a continuum.....unless something (ingredient and/or technique) is drastically amiss! :P
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Secret Santa,
much appreciate u explaining further.
yesterday ~ mid afternoon my wife took me to a supermarket (as she does most friday's). nothing special about that.
walking thought the carpark my nose immediately starting twitching. BIR.
as we got round the corner there were revellers coming out. the restaurant had never been open at the same time as i'd been in the carpark. on the way back i spotted the extract which faces into the car park. that smell is BIR for me.
i've know the Dilshad since ~79 ish and have eaten their regular ever since. i will ask next time i'm in. i can't for the life of me think of what could have changed. their curries have evolved over the period but not that much. i also know the owner of a place in warrington since the early 80's (but have not been in for quite a while). he would tell me for sure and i keep saying we should revisit.
ps Jenson Interceptor would be my jag.
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But surely the smell of the final curry is created by the former processes (e.g. frying the spices and adding the curry base) SS?
A truism if ever there was one!
My point is that whatever these processes are that create the taste and smell that I am after I am unable to recreate them, as evidenced by my failure to date, despite decades of trying, to make even one curry that comes even close!
My secondary point being that as I have tried many of the recipes on this site and none of those produced the taste or smell either, that for me at least, the taste and smell are a lost treasure.
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There is a two tier system of quality with bir cooking. We should have matched a average bir madras by now. The finest may always remain a mystery. of the ten different bir madras i tried recently , 2 were in a different league to most, stunning! . with many unrecognisable flavors and tastes which i know will always elude me. most of the other 8 madras were made from typical ingredients we all use. The fact none of us have managed to emulate even a middle of the road bir madras, can only mean 1 of two things. 1) we cant cook well enough yet. 2) we have all relied too much on the "someone else will work it out for me " attitude. Its just down to getting to know the key ingredients and spices much better. because i work long hours, and commute long distance, i have little time for putting in the long hours of experimenting to get that taste. If more of us adopted the approach of CA, and actually posted new material we might crack this. I will post my efforts in the new year. I intend on doing some new trials over xmas.