Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: Cory Ander on December 08, 2009, 12:02 AM
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Topic started by 976bar and moved to here by CA
From 976bar:
I know we all rant and rave on about using base on this site, because it is a site trying to achieve that BIR taste. BUT, do BIR's use base because it is the commercial way to make great tasting curries economically?
If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?
I for one maybe just like Domi have made fantastic tasting curries using ingredients without even the hint of a base sauce......
I'm not knocking base and today just made a batch of CA's for the first time and will be trying it out next week.
But I wonder if it would be any different if money was not the object here........
From CA:
If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?
I think it's more to do with TIME 976bar. I think that the traditional BIR method of making curries (using a base, precooked meat, etc) is so they can turn out a range of curries QUICKLY (rather than, or more so than, cheaply)
From 976bar:
If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?
I think it's more to do with TIME 976bar. I think that the traditional BIR method of making curries (using a base, precooked meat, etc) is so they can turn out a range of curries QUICKLY (rather than, or more so than, cheaply).
If thats the case Cory, why do these so called "posh" restaurants as you call them manage to turn out quantity, quality curries without using base?........ They do cost a bit more, but no base...... :)
From PaulP:
We're going a bit off topic here but I think the use of the base is to improve the quality of the finished sauce. I believe this is due to the large proportion of onion in the base and I'm not sure how you would achieve that without blending cooked onions.
I've tried a lot of traditional Indian curry recipes and the sauce has always seemed a let-down.
From 976bar:
We're going a bit off topic here but I think the use of the base is to improve the quality of the finished sauce. I believe this is due to the large proportion of onion in the base and I'm not sure how you would achieve that without blending cooked onions.
I've tried a lot of traditional Indian curry recipes and the sauce has always seemed a let-down.
Paul,
Try my Kashmiri Chicken Masala and also my Nepal Chicken using Mango, and a few others on here from other contributors. Believe me there are some fantastic curries to be made without the need of base.
Once again, I am not knocking base in any way, I also use it all the time, and made a batch of CA's on Saturday which is in the freezer and has not been used yet, but given time at the weekend I will be there bashing out BIR curries. However, it has to be understood that just because base is not used, it doesn't mean to say that it is not of restaurant quality. The Nepal Chicken is served by one of my local BIR's. Go take a look at "The Bombay Brasserie" in Kensington, London, a posh restaurant I think CA called it, but one of the most famous Indian Restaurants in London, that cook fresh Indian Cuisine without base.
I made a garlic chilli chicken on saturday using the last of my Safron base and a recipe from here, which was demolished by all :) I usually get some left over for the next day but alas not this time! :(
So, all in all I am extremely pleased I found this site, it has taught me so much over the past 2 - 3 years, and thank you to everyone who has contributed, but we must all remember that not all great curries derive from using just base.......... :)
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we must all remember that not all great curries derive from using just base..........
I would think that no one would disagree with that 976bar. It's just that all great "traditional British Indian Restaurant (BIR)" curries are made using a curry base! ;)
By "traditional BIR", I mean those Indian restaurants that proliferated, in Britain, in the 1970s and 1980s, and which were predominately Bangladeshi owned and run.
In my opinion, "traditional BIR" cooking is typified by the use of a pre-prepared curry base (and other pre-prepared ingredients, such as meats), and by other cost/time saving ingredients and techniques, in order to bang out a relatively wide range of curries, relatively quickly, at a relatively low cost.
Of course I should have said that time=money too.
On the other hand, "authentic" Indian cooking does not make use of a pre-prepared curry base (the "curry base" can probably be considered to be done, "in situ" i.e. when making the curry) and makes more use of exotic ingredients (e.g. whole spices and freshly roasted and ground spice blends) and techniques (e.g. marination, slow cooking, etc).
I have never done a comparison of volumes, costs and delivery times of "traditional BIR" restaurants versus "authentic" Indian restaurants, but I suspect the latter would always be slower and more expensive than the former; albeit equally delightful.
It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).
Upon reflection, I think the answer to your original question ("If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?") is "yes"! If time and money (and the Western pallatte!) were not factors, I think they (i.e. Indian restaurants) certainly WOULD use different techniques....and undoubtedly use a more "authentic" Indian cooking style. It is pretty well known that many restaurant staff generally prefer to make and eat their own dishes, using different ingredients and techniques, rather than the dishes on their menu.
"The Bombay Brasserie" promotes its food as "authentic Indian flavours transformed into a contemporary gourmet experience"....using "exotic international ingredients and traditional techniques".
Yes, to my mind, it is a VERY "posh" Indian restaurant (they even say "Sir Anthony Hopkins, Will Smith, Prince Charles, Tom Cruise, Mick Jagger, Nicole Kidman, Goldie Hawn, Tom Hanks, Bruce Springsteen, Mel Gibson, Danny DeVito and Sir Elton John are just some of the famous faces that have become fans of Bombay Brasserie over the years!")! Curry leaf scallops on tomato chutney starter anyone (for around 11 quid)? Or how about duck with kumquat and ginger chutney (for only 22 quid :P)? No? Then what about apricot and potato cakes with yoghurt and taramind chutney? And not a madras, vindaloo, phal, jalfrezi, rogan josh, etc, in sight! They even garnish their curries with CHERRIES and STRAWBERRIES ffs......! :-X
This restaurant is a clearly differentiating itself from the more "traditional BIRs" (from which it is about as far removed as you could possibly get!). I'm pretty sure more and more Indian restaurants will do so, as palettes and demands change, and to capture niche markets (not to mention the rich and famous with very deep pockets! ;)).
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It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).
Deep pockets have nothing to do with it. I personally am here because I enjoy working with others to recreate the grubby, fleck-wallpapered BIR fayre curries. Until the day when my tastes change for kumquat and scallops in my curry (when I am dead and buried) I will continue to work towards the perfect Madras, CTM, Vindaloo, Bhuna, Naan, and Pilao that I kindly remember my days (and late nights) in the UK for!
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originally by CA
It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).
I think newer members are trying to recreate the curries they buy now rather than the ones from yesteryear that original members are striving for, which are two completely different animals. I tend to pay far more attention to posts by George, Haldi, CA, SS, Stew et al who are devoted to the old BIR taste (since that's what I strive for).... I can make the modern versions, in fact I can make better tasting modern versions than alot of the BIRs but I can't get a consistent old-style curry flavour :-\ I also think that often people think that recipes are being slated for not being up to scratch, but the criticism is merely that they're not traditional BIR - it's just that people are at cross-purposes :)
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Oh come on CA, you can't tell me you haven't rolled into a BIR late at night, after having a skinfull, and not demanded a " duck with kumquat and ginger chutney" to go...and don't spare the chilli, Abdul!
Man, you haven't lived. ;)
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Indians like sauce just as much as we do. They create it in a pan using basic elements all day long at home.
The problem arises when you have 30 or 40 sittings in the evening. That is where base sauce helps but it isn't needed really so long as you know what goes where and when. If you don't of course then its just much more simple to create a sauce to which everything can be added in short notice.
BIR is a term. It doesn't mean GREAT cooking. It means that there is a system. That system is here too and in restaurants world wide. Though they differ I'm sure in some respects.
One note from this thread is VERY TRUE.
Creating something from years ago is nearly impossible. Yes people cook to what they know now and providing they capture it they will be able to pass that on. Hopefully with places like this that will be a possibility in years to come?
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This is a super thread because it recognises the value of non BIR curries. I agree with CA's comment that the commercial need to produce curries in volume has driven the need to produce "standardised" recipes by rote.
I have a small collection or Indian or curry recipe books from the 60s and 70s and none of them mention curry bases. All the recipes in these books describe cooking curries from scratch starting with cooking onions (and usually garlic and ginger) in oil, adding the masala (spice mix), browning the meat then adding various liquid ingredients, e.g. tomatoes.
Indeed these books are not even attempting to describe BIR curries. They are promoting traditional home style cooking. They are none the worse for that. They are just different.
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I often wonder whether the BIR curry base was invented for the UK market by Bangladeshi/Pakistani chefs or whether a restaurant in Bangladesh/Pakistan would use the same technique for fast cooking.
One thing is for sure - it would be impractical to make a BIR base without a blender. From this perspective is cannot be seen as traditional Indian cooking.
I've tried (over many years) cooking Indian food as per the usual: Fry onions, cardamom pods, cloves, bay leaf, cinnamon etc. add spices, fresh tomato etc. I've never cooked a dish like this where the sauce tastes as good as one using a base sauce, and I'm not mad keen on eating whole spices either.
For me the BIR base sauce technique I learned from this forum has transformed the dishes I can make and I don't think the technique should be considered second-rate compared to traditional Indian food.
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From the horses mouth as it were this is exactly what happened as I understand it. They do it here of course too and since this is a multicultural society in every sense of the word it varies from place to place. That said there are some places where you can tell its from the same descendancy.
I often wonder whether the BIR curry base was invented for the UK market by Bangladeshi/Pakistani chefs or whether a restaurant in Bangladesh/Pakistan would use the same technique for fast cooking.
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originally by CA
It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).
I think newer members are trying to recreate the curries they buy now rather than the ones from yesteryear that original members are striving for, which are two completely different animals. I tend to pay far more attention to posts by George, Haldi, CA, SS, Stew et al who are devoted to the old BIR taste (since that's what I strive for).... I can make the modern versions, in fact I can make better tasting modern versions than alot of the BIRs but I can't get a consistent old-style curry flavour :-\ I also think that often people think that recipes are being slated for not being up to scratch, but the criticism is merely that they're not traditional BIR - it's just that people are at cross-purposes :)
Domi,
Being 50 years of age, I cut my teeth back in the 70's in Indian Restaurants and have loved curries from that era and would also love to re-create them. I'm not absolutely convinced that they used base back in those days, the craving just was not there like it is now for the british population for them to make a "mass base sauce" like today. I think it was more of an Indian traditional idea converted for western tastes.
Certainly today, when you consider that BIR is the most popular dish across our nation, then the need for a base is very important. But like most people on here I have not found that 70's/80's taste for years now....... and I certainly can't create it, thats why we are all here.
Yes Cory, I do agree with you, this site is based on creating that original BIR taste and I think we have strived to do that since the day this site started, but to be honest, we are always close, but never there......
That is not to say we should ever give up, and I think this is the only site in the world that will ever accomplish that with all our members, and please all keep the contributions coming.
However, whether it is a traditional BIR we are achieving or not, then all contributions, whether they be BIR or traditional should be more than welcomed.
You never know, someone might pick up a traditional one day and fathom a way to make it back into one of those 70's or 80's classical tastes.......
I certainly hope so :)
Keep up the good work everyone, I've visited other sites, but none are as good as this :)
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I also think that often people think that recipes are being slated for not being up to scratch, but the criticism is merely that they're not traditional BIR - it's just that people are at cross-purposes :)
Yes I think you're right there Domi. I haven't made all the recipes on this site, but of the ones that I have, I've been very disappointed. Not, as you say, because they are really bad curries but, because they pale into insignificance with what I used to get at the BIRs.
And also, like you say, they do come very close to what I can now get in BIRs but I find these curries unexceptional at best.
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I often wonder whether the BIR curry base was invented for the UK market by Bangladeshi/Pakistani chefs
I can answer that one. It's not a BIR invention.
I have a book (which I can't find at the mo...I bet some bugger's half inched it!) which is a housewives cookbook from South Africa from about the 50's I think. It is by Bangladeshi women though, and sure enough in there is a recipe that is as close as you'll get to a BIR base sauce.
It has a name, which I forget at the moment, and it's use, surprise surprise, is for making a quick curry!
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I dunno folks?
All I see is "BIR" when its just a delish curry. One Lady I know pratically gave me the ingredients for her personal version. She's not a curry house. My mate had a enormous pot on the stove when I went round years ago. Never bothered to ask, why would I?
The "BIR" is just a word. It sometimes throws you off the real scent, (Pardon the pun), the sauce and meat. I'm not cooking "BIR'S" I don't think truly I ever have? I'm just trying to mimic what I get from an Indian restaurant, wherever that might be?
I'd be very interested in seeing that recipe Santa. If you've a mind to post it?
It has a name, which I forget at the moment, and it's use, surprise surprise, is for making a quick curry!
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I'd be very interested in seeing that recipe Santa. If you've a mind to post it?
It has a name, which I forget at the moment, and it's use, surprise surprise, is for making a quick curry!
I can't find the damn book just now but I've remembereded the name of the sauce, it's called a daag.
Here's a few links that might help:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/ (http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/)
http://www.gourmetindia.com/Sauces-gravies-t254.html&st=40 (http://www.gourmetindia.com/Sauces-gravies-t254.html&st=40)
http://www.recipeskerala.com/Dishes/Main_Dishes/Main_Dish_Recipes/Daag%20Curry.htm (http://www.recipeskerala.com/Dishes/Main_Dishes/Main_Dish_Recipes/Daag%20Curry.htm)
http://twosistersandfriends.blogspot.com/2009/04/daag-curry-base.html (http://twosistersandfriends.blogspot.com/2009/04/daag-curry-base.html)
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I'm sorry but this made my day. ;D
Forever and a lifetime I've had these moments.
Had my satchel stolen a few months ago, I bet they are the same creeps. ;D
DAAG? Now that sounds a good lead. Thanks SS.
I'm only joking about the days and sorry for laughing but it was funny. ;D
Cooking is fun isn't it. ::)
I can't find the damn book just now but I've remembereded the name of the sauce, it's called a daag.
Here's a few links that might help:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/ (http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/80626-daag-curry-base/)
http://www.gourmetindia.com/Sauces-gravies-t254.html&st=40 (http://www.gourmetindia.com/Sauces-gravies-t254.html&st=40)
http://www.recipeskerala.com/Dishes/Main_Dishes/Main_Dish_Recipes/Daag%20Curry.htm (http://www.recipeskerala.com/Dishes/Main_Dishes/Main_Dish_Recipes/Daag%20Curry.htm)
http://twosistersandfriends.blogspot.com/2009/04/daag-curry-base.html (http://twosistersandfriends.blogspot.com/2009/04/daag-curry-base.html)
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I can't find the damn book just now but I've remembereded the name of the sauce, it's called a daag.
SS, there's a recipe for Daag in 50 Great Curries of India by Camellia Panjabi is that the one you mean?. I made it once and wasn't impressed.
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currymonster, that's definitely not the one I mean. The daag though is open to interpretation, just like the base sauce, so you're going to get good ones and bad ones. The only point I'm really making is that there were daags around well before the BIR and there are daag recipes that look remarkably like base sauces, therefore the BIRs did not invent the base sauce technique. It's a housewives trick for making a quick curry.
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As 976bar mentioned and I have wondered myself , do you think it possible that back in the 70's Indian Curries were not so popular as now so there may not have been a need for a Curry Base and the flavour of the 70's Curries may have been from a ' Curry from scratch method ' ? Perhaps this is why we can not seem to recreate the smell / flavour of the 70's Curries because we use a ' short cut recipe ' Base Sauce . :-\
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do you think it possible that back in the 70's.....may have been from a ' Curry from scratch method
No, most BIRs (at least the ones I frequented in the late 70's and 80's) still made their curries using a curry base.
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getting a bit off post but South African's really do know how to cook.
they also can't be that far off the curry trail.
our neighbours are SA. the samosas, bhaji etc are up their with the best. they know their spices too.
they also know non curry cooking. sorry but don't know the name but they cook oxtail as a sort of casserole - oxtail the word gets me running for cover yet the taste is to die for.
i'll ask them about daag.
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back in the 70's Indian Curries were not so popular as now so there may not have been a need for a Curry Base and the flavour of the 70's Curries may have been from a ' Curry from scratch method
emin-j,
the lack of popularity was down purely to personal perception. i for one was forced into my 1st restaurant (sit in the cold car was the alternative).
for me i'm 100% sure they were made from base.
curry from scratch is a recent ploy by restaurants to extract extra cash for the dream of something better. fleeced is my word for it. top chefs may well be able to pull it off. i have a 60? bill for 3 from a couple of yrs ago which set my mind at rest.
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do you think it possible that back in the 70's Indian Curries were not so popular as now so there may not have been a need for a Curry Base and the flavour of the 70's Curries may have been from a ' Curry from scratch method ' ?
According to Pat Chapman, "formula curries" (i.e. those using a curry base and other pre-prepared ingredients) were pioneered in the late 1940s:
"Many of our 'Indian' restaurants operate to a formula which was pioneered in the late 1940s. In those early restaurants, a way had to be found to deliver a variety of curries, without an unreasonable delay, from order to table. Since all authentic Indian recipes require hours of cooking in individual pots, there was no guarantee that they would even be ordered.So cubed meat, chicken or potatoes, dhal and some vegetables were lightly curried and chilled, and a large pot of thick curry gravy, a kind of master stock, was brewed to medium-heat strength. To this day, portion by portion,on demand, these ingredients are reheated by pan-frying them with further spices and flavourings. At its simplest, a Medium Chicken Curry, that benchmark of middle ground, is still on many menus, though sometimes disguised as Masala, and requires no more than a reheat of some gravy with some chicken"
This is from Pat's website which can be found here: http://www.patchapman.co.uk (http://www.patchapman.co.uk)
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curry from scratch is a recent ploy by restaurants to extract extra cash for the dream of something better. fleeced is my word for it
You pays your money and you takes your choice Jerry, I'm not sure "fleeced" is the right word!
They (i.e. "Indian" restaurants generally) are simply differentiating themselves by going with a more "traditional/authentic" style of Indian cooking (i.e. less formulaic, without a base, etc), more regional (i.e. regional Indian rather than specifically Bangladeshi) and more diverse menu variations using more varied and fresher ingredients. They can then charge more for their dishes which are generally slower and more costly to prepare. I'd do the same if I were in their business!
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i'll ask them about daag.
i asked about daag. not heard of it. the only suggestion was dhal which being lentil is not what we would be interested in (in terms of curry base).
i did not speak to the boss - so might find more but not looking good (they do have relatives back in SA).
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Guys,
I can't quite recall where I heard or read this, but I'm sure that the Indian term for base sauce is also referred to as 'Garab or Grabbi'?
I have seen a stream on youtube whereby they call their base a Grabbi.
I have an old Indian cookbook which is from the late 50's written by Savitri Chowdary. All traditional fayre here with no mention of any base sauce!
Ray
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Many Bengali owned/operated outlets call the base sauce garabi or grabbi, pronounced gar-rarbee,,
it stemmed from Bengali's who struggled with the English language trying to say "gravy"
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Achmal,
Many Bengali owned/operated outlets call the base sauce garabi or grabbi, pronounced gar-rarbee,,
it stemmed from Bengali's who struggled with the English language trying to say "gravy"
I'm sat here, pronouncing gravy in a very strong Asian accent ;D and I think what you say could well be spot on.
Until anyone can come up with a better explanation to the name, I'm going with this one ;D
Ray
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This sits well with what I thought I heard the IG Chefs saying, it certainly sounded like 'garabi' but I wasn't sure.