Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: telecaster445 on December 02, 2009, 08:30 PM
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I've read many articles here on members getting the fable toffee hit, at various and sometimes unexpected times. There is no doubt that the smell that eminates from a BIR kitchen often bears no resemblence to home.
there is a technique to this that can be replicated at home, by (as you would expect) doing the same as in a BIR kitchen. The 2 magic secrets are heat and movement of the pan.
if you can't get extreme heat at home on your stove, you will find this hard.
If you were to watch the local chef, he will add gravy on top of spices to prevent burning. So as all the spices are cooked, he will have a very high heat and rapidly moved the frying pan back and forth (in a sliding action), on the high gas. Now this has to be done quickly and when the pan is not too full, to prevent slopping on the stove. The action of this will cause flames to engulf the pan. This is fine and is needed. It is at this point that the aroma is released.
Try a dry run with onions, garlic/ginger paste, then a spice mix of your choice (but not dry), add either gravy of 4 tablespoons of water. Remember, movement induces flames, equals toffee aroma. Let me know how you get on.
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Interesting telecaster445.
I assume this requires a gas stove?
Mine is a ceramic glasstop, but I do know it gets VERY hot. May be a moot point if you're suggesting the flames are the key.
I've had success in getting the toffee aroma (I think I have anyway) by simply vigorous stirring on high heat after adding the spices to the oil/garlic/puree for about a minute.
-- Josh
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Yes, if you can get high heat and vigorous pan movement you are well on the way. Take a glance in A BIR kitchen and you be sure to see flames. The flambe is the time the aroma really comes to life.
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telecaster445,
a pet subject for me and always looking to learn.
i spent ages mastering the toffee art using dry spice only (only oil & spice i mean) to learn as u say some liquid is also needed to avoid the potential to burn.
in switching to my high heat stove one of the differences i found was that i can't smell what we call that toffee aroma (i think the rest of the smoke/heat overpowers the nose). i know the process must happen just the same though.
interesting for me is the suggestion to move "shake" the pan. this i haven't tried as it immediately flames. i currently play chicken and leave the pan undisturbed for typ 60 secs once the oil, g/g, spice, tom puree, 1 chef base are in and mixed. i check around the rim to make sure it's not burning as this stage is prone to getting black debris - which u don't want for sure.
i will give the movement idea ago next time - many thanks
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my gas stove will not go high enough to have flames licking over the edge , like the big boys do. Will a normal gas stove on full heat suffice for this toffee technique? or is it essential to have those flames in the pan?
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This idea that BIR chefs deliberately cause the pan to flame is a myth. In fact wasn't that one of the myths we already scotched in our BIR myths post?
That's not to say that occasionally one of the pans won't ignite, but they are not doing this deliberately - unless, that is, there happens to be a publicity shoot going on.
Now, is this one of the reasons that todays curries aren't as good as yesteryears? Did they always flame the pan in the past?
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Well in my opinion SS years ago they didnt use a big cooker range
they used to use four burner domestic gas cookers so i would say no they never flamed
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i've still not fathomed what event, circumstance or ingredient produces the smokiness. i do know that i find it hard now not to get it.
from this my observations are:
1) u don't need to flame the pan
2) the flames do have to wrap around and just over the rim
3) the heat has to be much higher than a 3.0kw domestic gas hob
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Jerry, the chef i know said he doubts you can get the taste without the ummff of a real gas burner. so this all makes sense, thanks. The best workaround i can do, with my gas cooker, is to pump up the heat to full (once all the base is in) and blitz it all for 3 to 5 mins. Dramatically drying out the curry. it always results in a curry which tastes less home made. and a lot closer to a real takeaway. high heat and lots of oil and salt seems essential. but you all know that ! ;)
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Guys I had a TA from my local last week,it has an open kitchen and you can see clearly what the chef is doing though not all of the ingredients. As you would expect the use lots of short cuts like pre cooked rice that they stick in microwave to heat, pretty poor chicken ticka and precooked chicken held in what seems to be hot water as it comes out of the pan pure white. Anyway he puts in a little oil and what must be ghee then in goes the garlic/ginger paste, the tomato puree and whatever his spice mix is and he stirs it in with the back of the spoon. He then leaves it on what seems to be high heat for a few minutes. I feel it will surely burn but he seems relaxed with this approach the as he adds the meat followed by the base he begins the movement and stirring but in this case no flame though others times there can be it doesn't seem to matter too much. he produces acceptable TA though I would want freshly cooked ticka in a good BIR. PP
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Interesting PP. The last time i was in a bir kitchen (my 10th demo) i made a point of looking at the heat going into the madras he was making. i will never forget this: For between 5 and 8 minutes it was vigouresly bubbling away at very high temp. small bubbles were rapidly breaking the surface, and the whole thing was furiously bubbling. There base is about as thin as you can get. out of 20 bir madras from different bir, there's is easily the winner nearly every visit. there base is unique, and closely guarded secret. its a bangledeshy bir btw. they seem to be the best type. all the food is very mild but loaded with toffee taste. very subtle spicing. I have given up trying to replicate there style, as i make better progress when i just experiment for fun. I am convinced these bir recipies are handed down through generations, and to some extent are secret.
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I now believe that the fast reduction of the first ladle of base and subsequent scraping and stirring helps to create the smokey flavour and I find the toffee aroma is present at this stage.
As I posted elsewhere, I now mix up oil, base , G&G, spice mix, tom puree, chilli at the start of cooking and reduce the first lot of base so there is virtually no water showing.
At the same time some of the base is catching on my wok and going dry and brown - I believe that the onion in the base is caramalising when this happens and it has to be rapidly stirred back in.
I've definitely got more of a BIR flavour since adopting this technique.
I hate to admit it but until this point I was using teflon non-stick pans and now would not recommend this to anyone trying for BIR curries.
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I assume this requires a gas stove?
If you have a non-gas stove, perhaps you could try using a match, a bit like with Xmas pudding.
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I find the ' Toffee ' aroma appears just as the Garlic / Ginger / Tom Puree / Spices ( fried in that order ) get to certain level of frying and if fried for much longer will burn :o that's when I add the first ladle of base , I only use a standard Gas Hob but the largest burner if put on full would overcook the contents of the frying pan very quickly and I also don't think it necessary to flambe a Curry and after watching my Madras being cooked at my favourite T/A without Flambe or even heat more than a domestic Gas Hob is capable of producing and the flavour was awesome :)
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The best workaround i can do, with my gas cooker, is to pump up the heat to full (once all the base is in) and blitz it all for 3 to 5 mins.
this has been said before by quite a few others. i must admit - It when in and straight out for quite a while.
"add the base a little at a time" (sort of chef spoon ~ 60ml or say 1/2 ladle 75ml) - it's a workaround that make help on the hob - the intent being that the hob can keep the temp up without dipping.
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perhaps you could try using a match, a bit like with Xmas pudding.
I'm not sure what you mean by that George? Would you please explain?
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perhaps you could try using a match, a bit like with Xmas pudding.
I'm not sure what you mean by that George? Would you please explain?
It was a tongue in cheek comment, following the earlier question about whether it could be possible to get flames to hit the pan if you only have an electric hob. Warm Xmas pudding is sometimes doused with brandy and then ignited for the visual effect as well as a bit of extra flavour.
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Actually now you mention it that sounds awesome :o ;D
It was a tongue in cheek comment, following the earlier question about whether it could be possible to get flames to hit the pan if you only have an electric hob. Warm Xmas pudding is sometimes doused with brandy and then ignited for the visual effect as well as a bit of extra flavour.
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The constant scraping of the sides of the aluminium pans as the chef cooked in front of me at The Ashoka was explained to be critical and it was a feature of the TA chef working last week in my local.PP
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It was a tongue in cheek comment....about...Xmas pudding is sometimes doused with brandy and then ignited
Hmmmm, NOW I understand (I thought that's what you were getting at :P)
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I've had flames hit the pan :o but that was after my first phaal :D I wont go into detail ;)
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Secret Santa
I don't think the flames are intended, but are a by product of needing to cook at speed (and therefore high temp.). There is some chemical reaction as the liquid rapidly evaporates. this happens most effeciently during flambe. Watching the pros, they often have anumber of pans on the go at one time. they can't all be flaming and some are just bubbling rapidly. however, when chef turns attention to a particular pan, then he'll get the big spoon in and agitate the pan (often causing flames). A simple test at home on a very high heat confirms this is possible, just using onions, garlic, spice mix and small amount of water. remember that water in hot oily pans is not a good mix, so expect a reaction (of a flaming variety). Get your nose ready for that toffee!!
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after 2 years of bir cooking i am getting a very rich dark toffee taste. with time i need to learn to make this more mild, then i will be identical to a real bir. i think its subtle changes to technique that lead to this taste developing. i still need to learn more to make the taste more mild, like real bir do. i believe its technique improvement and small changes to recipies that are the key
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Derek I couldn't agree more with you. The slightest knock here and there and the whole concept is changed. I'm working on something to make this a little clearer for folks today hopefully.
I'd appreciate any and all input once I have it posted. Good for you on the taste and wow factor, its really hard to get there isn't it.
after 2 years of bir cooking i am getting a very rich dark toffee taste. with time i need to learn to make this more mild, then i will be identical to a real bir. i think its subtle changes to technique that lead to this taste developing. i still need to learn more to make the taste more mild, like real bir do. i believe its technique improvement and small changes to recipies that are the key
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Hi Mikka, yes there is not much margin for error. my main question at the moment is how do bir achieve such a mild toffee taste, without being bland.
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my main question at the moment is how do bir achieve such a mild toffee taste, without being bland.
DD,
i did not pick up on your initial post. i presume when u say "toffee" taste u mean the taste associated with the "toffee" smell which isn't toffee at all but the best way so far anyone has come to describing it (being the BIR smell).
this is starting to sound complicated - so i'll concentrate on what i think the answer is.
the "toffee" smell is the smell of the spices frying in oil, tom puree and water (or a little base). i find this is the trickiest part of the cooking. too little and the spices don't come into their own "bland". too much and u get black debris around the pan and a very dark curry.
i look for when the water has almost gone but "emulsification" or "lumpy mass" has occurred. if in doubt i always aim to under cook. i use the spoon on the inside of the rim to check on how the water is doing.
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i presume when u say "toffee" taste u mean the taste associated with the "toffee" smell which isn't toffee at all but the best way so far anyone has come to describing it (being the BIR smell).
Oooooh, you've got to be careful there Jerry. The smell that I am personally trying to replicate is the one you used to get when you opened the door to the delivery person. It was totally, unmistakably, BIR.
Now, I haven't had a delivery in yonks, so I don't know wheteher it would be the same, but I do know the toffee smell ain't what I'm trying to reproduce (although I can do that too).
Equally some will argue that the smell they want is the one they get when entering a BIR, again for me that used to be different, and again not what I'm after.
The only thing that's really clear to me is that we all have different ideas about what the BIR curry "smell" and "taste" is that we are all apparently trying to reproduce.
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Cardboard boxes?
Sounds nuts doesn't it? Same thing here, it's just like a trash smell you back for. It's an odd smell!
Are we eating rotten food? I doubt it but there is something really big what you've said SS.
The smell that I am personally trying to replicate is the one you used to get when you opened the door to the delivery person. It was totally, unmistakably, BIR.
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A trash smell. Exactly.
Next time I make curry base, I will include some old socks to see if that helps produce the trash aroma. I wonder if they will blend though...
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Oooooh, you've got to be careful there
Secret Santa,
i'm well pleased your on the ball. it dawned on me after posting that i have an additional smell (the walking in smell). there is of course a 3rd smell the cardboard.
in short what i was trying to be clear on is that the "toffee" smell is not toffee. it's just the best way that anyone has come up with so far of describing the smell - the smell being when the spices are frying at optimum temperature (and i think pretty much cooked).
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Hi Jerry. by toffee taste i mean that delicous almost sweet taste you get sometimes. its in the oil as well. i always know when my curry has turned out good, if i can leave it to cool for an hour, come back and it still tastes sweet and moorish. at the right temperature, and using the right technique, the garlic, tom puree, spices, pepper slithers, onion, and possibly a bit of methi,seem to combine to make a toffee taste in the oil. in my opinion anyway. i am sure i get it more since going to gas. simply because its so hot. the technique of adding extra water and reducing may help get this taste. but you know that already ). I believe an overly strong or thick base may reduce this taste. so base is important. its seems to happen much more with decent fresh base. frozen base is convenient, but never as good. I am with Bruce on that one ! ;D
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DD,
i'm happy to stick with toffee too as the describing word - i can't get any better single word for it either. i'd add that i don't have to wait for it to cool - i'm sure the water has a big part - i'm able to have mine very thin and for defo has to be fresh. i get a lot of smoke too - this is also important although i've not worked out why.
forgot to add - i can't actually smell the toffee smell anymore (since leaving my 3kw kitchen gas hob) although i know it must be happening - the smoke overpowers.
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Hi guys,
Im currently going through the CA recipes using his "masala" and "base". This toffee smell that you guys talk about, I pressume you mean the "spice hit" at the frying stage?
I can't really say that it smells like toffee to me but I think I know what you mean. To be honest, I've tried fast cooking and slowboat cooking with CA's recipes with identical results at the end, that being, an excellent finished dish, with the right amount of oil, and that sweet BIR smell and taste.
With that said then, I'm convinced that we don't need to achieve the "toffee" smell to get the taste. I also dont believe super high heat and rapid frying is key either. If you look at the burners in a BIR kitchen when they are on full blast, yes, the flames wrap around the pan, but actually how much flame is hitting the base of the pan? I'm sure that we have all seen the chef crank up the heat, add the oil, garlic and ginger, then leave it un-attended for a good 2-3 minutes. Try that on your own hob and I guarantee burnt garlic and ginger.
As for frying spices to release their oils, you should, without a doubt, add them dry to the oil OFF the heat, then return to a low flame. Again, no nead for nuclear rated burners here!
Frying/evaporating the base, a chef's spoonful at a time, is for me, where tha BIR taste is achieved. That is when I smell the familiar BIR aroma that you get when you walk into the restaurant.
Just my 10 penneth of course ;D
Ray
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But your nose is what you eat in matter of terms. If something you prepare doesn't smell very good you just ain't gunna eat it.
I think this is way more about content than anything else to be honest Razor. That and how you deal with meat, spices and oils.
I found the same too by the way. I hope some folks don't go opening restaurants because covers will not last long. Much to learn yet.
Best.
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I agree with Razor on the ' not so high heat ' that the BIR Chef's use , even when they turn up the heat the flames are very lazy and when you see how long they sometimes leave a Curry unattended that cannot be that high a heat IMO :)
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Guys I had a TA from my local last week,it has an open kitchen and you can see clearly what the chef is doing though not all of the ingredients. As you would expect the use lots of short cuts like pre cooked rice that they stick in microwave to heat, pretty poor chicken ticka and precooked chicken held in what seems to be hot water as it comes out of the pan pure white. Anyway he puts in a little oil and what must be ghee then in goes the garlic/ginger paste, the tomato puree and whatever his spice mix is and he stirs it in with the back of the spoon. He then leaves it on what seems to be high heat for a few minutes. I feel it will surely burn but he seems relaxed with this approach the as he adds the meat followed by the base he begins the movement and stirring but in this case no flame though others times there can be it doesn't seem to matter too much. he produces acceptable TA though I would want freshly cooked ticka in a good BIR. PP
I've also seen chefs leave a pan with spices being fried on super high heat for what seems like an amazing long time. I feel sure I would burn my spices if I try the same thing. Makes no sense to me unless the water in the tomato puree is protecting the spices.
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Try it sverige, its all in the technique, which comes from practice. Until you burn your spices how do you know whats over or under cooked. If its burnt bin it , start again until you get the taste you search for
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Sverige,
may be of help. you will certainly know when spice is burnt - tastes horrible. its also very easy to do.
i use the 2 methods of spice frying depending on how i feel. on the same heat i count 11 secs for the dry method (frying spice in oil, burnt at 15 secs) compared with the liquid method at 1.5 mins where i add 1 off chef spoon of liquid (for me base 60 ml, the puree is also in the pan).
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Hi all,Just to add Spices don't really burn in oil they cook, Spice burns when they sticks to the bottom of a hot pan, it's the pan that burns the spice not the oil ;)
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halogen hob + onions + lots of oil + tomato puree = caramalisation and toffee aroma. Try just frying the tomato puree in oil and you should get that smell too