Curry Recipes Online
Curry Photos & Videos => Pictures of Your Curries => Topic started by: Mikka1 on November 14, 2009, 02:24 PM
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Dinner was pretty good really. The oil smells dark and potent. It definitely makes a difference but doesn't add that enormous aroma/flavour that I get in my Vindies sadly. :(
I did try a small batch and added some Mango Chutney also Mango spice pickle. Neither again did the trick. Square one again but all is not lost. The oil is worth the effort in making though the aroma might put you off at first it smells what it looks like, old oil. It's not of course.
I've noticed that Paprika added to very hot oil sometimes gets near what I'm looking for and I now suspect as some have said its less not more in terms of spice powders provided you've got your marinade correct?
I used CA'S chicken (precooked). My oven won't go down to 150 only 170 and to be honest the aroma was great in the oven but when the chicken hit the fat it mostly tasted of ginger which added a slight vinegar tart flavour. Eatable but not fantastic. I'll reduce amounts of Ginger, in the GG paste also add Tamarind pulp to the marinade next time which is one part of how I prepare my lamb.
I'd love to have a go at the chicken with onions method in precooking next time to see what that brings? Thighs no problem and I really do think that its all about the meet.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2f7ccf230f671c37554d8ebd205ff0b7.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2f7ccf230f671c37554d8ebd205ff0b7.jpg)
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I used CA'S chicken (precooked).
Not mine, Mikka, I think you might mean PanPot's?
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Sorry CA. Yes you're right. ;D
Not mine, Mikka, I think you might mean PanPot's?
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I cant see the pic mikka :-\
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I cant see the pic mikka :-\
I can see it chinois. Maybe it's your browser settings?
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I cant see the pic mikka :-\
I can see it chinois. Maybe it's your browser settings?
Aha, i can see it now! I thought when i checked the reason earlier mikka's images were hosted on another site and i guessed that was down or had been moved. None of that seems to be true so i'll be quiet now. Google chrome doesnt like images on this forum at the best of times.
Well mikka that madras looks really tasty even if it wasnt a success! I'm getting hungry and i had a CTM and korma for my dinner. I'm with you on the ginger - i find it a really difficult freeking ingredient that doesnt seem to like being cooked. The last base i did i used a ratio of about 1:3 g/g and it worked well. I know we seem to be in the minority and most traditional recipes dont have ratios that low either so i dont quite understand.
As for mango chutney, i find a tbs really works for BIR flavour. It's tempting to use it in most dishes but i have to control myself or i'll only cook one dish every time!
I've been realizing a lot of sugar-based ingredients get me to a BIR flavour. Ketchup, evaporated milk, sweet chilli sauce, a spoon of sugar. And all just after the spices so they caramelize a bit. I've noticed mint sauce in quite a few recipes too, the difference between it and fresh mint being the amount of sourness, saltiness and sweetness. I dont think it's a coincidence.
My distinction of BIR compared with traditional indian would be that sweetness is a crucial seasoning/taste. And then when you have a dish that is mainly sweet, like CTM, korma, pasanda or ceylon the best restaurants balance it with a bit of sourness (i think lemon is the best for BIR). You shouldnt be able to taste the lemon but it should stop it being cloying/sickly sweet.
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y distinction of BIR compared with traditional indian would be that sweetness is a crucial seasoning/taste.
Strange. I did a bit of a test with this weekend's Madras. I had four pans going... one with no lemon but with 1.5tsp sugar, one with bunjara with lemon but with sugar, one bunjara but no lemon or sugar, one usual (tsp lemon, tbsp bunjara, no sugar)
For me, the one with lemon and bunjara, and without sugar was far and away the winner. Personal taste I'm sure. Interestingly, more to the lemon than to the bunjara.
No idea if that had any value for the masses, but a personal step forward (no sugar, keep the lemon... bunjara adds something, but I wonder if the add is worth the work)
-- Josh
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I thought when i checked the reason earlier mikka's images were hosted on another site
And you'd be correct chinois (you're not going mad after all!) :P I also notcied that and moved it to the cr0 hosting site, but it was still visible here, nevertheless.
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I'm with chinois here. I find that sugar (in whatever form) enhaces the taste tremendously. The secret is, I guess, to use enough of it to enhance the taste without making the dish overly sweet.
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The secret is, I guess, to use enough of it to enhance the taste without making the dish overly sweet
Weird. I used just over tsp and found the sweetness noticeable. And not in a caramelized onion sort of way.
Funny thing is, I actually like CTM and Korma... for the sweetness.
Like the tart hotness in a Madras. Not sweet.
Damn... too bad we could not do a cr0 members curry-off...
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The secret is, I guess, to use enough of it to enhance the taste without making the dish overly sweet
Weird. I used just over tsp and found the sweetness noticeable. And not in a caramelized onion sort of way.
Funny thing is, I actually like CTM and Korma... for the sweetness.
Like the tart hotness in a Madras. Not sweet.
Damn... too bad we could not do a cr0 members curry-off...
I think adding the sugar (or chutney/ketchup etc) early so it cooks rather than just dissolves makes a difference. I find it contributes to the taste more. As for bunjara, i havent added it late enough times to know the effect.
Good work on the 4 pan test Josh - the result is what i'd imagine. To me a madras isnt right without lemon, even though a lot of BIRs do it that way. I know what you mean about the bunjara. I like it on its own and i do use it but it doesnt make much of a difference. I have often used quite a bit more that the recipe suggests, which is nice although doesnt really recreate specific BIR dishes. I still like the principal though as caramelized/fried onions are a beautiful thing.
I agree that a madras should be hot, savoury and sour, but they do have quite a bit of sweetness too IMO.
As mentioned before, i almost always use a squeeze of lemon when adding sugar.
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Good input Chinois. I've been adding sugar to Madras like a seasoning or bunjara - right at the end.
Maybe I should experiment more by actually cooking with it - i.e. after the spices have fried and right when adding the base. Perhaps with the spices/methi/salt as well.
I also agree (sorry SS) that lemon is critical to what I have experienced as a Madras. I made one last week and sat down to eat it, and was immediately like "s**t"... noticed right away I forgot the lemon.
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To me a madras isnt right without lemon...
And to me, if it's got lemon juice in it, it's not a madras. But then I'm old school.
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I also agree (sorry SS) that lemon is critical to what I have experienced as a Madras. I made one last week and sat down to eat it, and was immediately like "s**t"... noticed right away I forgot the lemon.
Well judging by the number of people that seem to put lemon in a madras on this forum, I do seem to be in the minority in not using it.
All I can say is that no BIR madras I've ever eaten (up until recently) has had any hint of sourness, lemonyness, or any other attribute that would give away the addition of lemon juice.
It seems to get worse however, people are now saying it needs both lemon AND sugar! WTF? It's a madras for god's sake, not a toned down pathia! ??? ::)
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Secret Santa,
i've been a real stick in the mud too on this one. i'm sure there was no "lemon juice" in the old madras.
however i've started putting a touch (squirt) of the lemon dressing and i'm well sold on it. scary as i'm ending up putting it in pretty much all dishes.
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hey guys, its good to know that i am not alone in adding lemon to madras. for me madras should be hot and sour and garlicky lemoney, with a little coriander leaf + stalk. and lots of tom puree is a must. i have ruled out worcester sauce, sugar, coconut, too much tumeric, (tumeric is for boona) ghee is a no no for madras. thats in my opinion! i know there are many versions of madras.
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however i've started putting a touch (squirt) of the lemon dressing and i'm well sold on it. scary as i'm ending up putting it in pretty much all dishes.
Although I still wouldn't use it myself, I reckon if you must use some 'lemon' then the lemon-dressing variety is acceptable (barely) as it's a different beast to pure lemon juice.
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for me madras should be hot and sour and garlicky lemoney, with a little coriander leaf + stalk. and lots of tom puree is a must.
Leave out the extra tomato puree and you've described a vindaloo!
thats in my opinion! i know there are many versions of madras.
True enough, but where do you draw the line? For me when you make a vindaloo, and call it a madras, you've well and truly put your size 12 firmly over that line.
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as i say i'm sold on the lemon dressing but it's got to be very subtle - u would not know it was there but u know when it's not - a little squirt is all u need.
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as i say i'm sold on the lemon dressing but it's got to be very subtle - u would not know it was there but u know when it's not - a little squirt is all u need.
Yes no-one knows there's lemon in the curries we order or the ones i make. It's only a little bit for seasoning and is added before the end so its flavour enhances rather than dominates.
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Hi SS,
Am I wrong in thinking that the only difference between Madras, Vindaloo and Phall is the quantity of chilli powder used, and I dont mean like the traditional vindaloo which uses vinegar and potato?
Also, has anyone tried substituting sugar for clear honey. I do at the "adding the spice stage" and it really helps in getting that toffee aroma and just seems to give the dish a nicer ??? sweetness than sugar!
Ray
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Razor
As far as I understand that is the case, and if you check out Bruce Edwards' article Curry House Cookery, you'll get a bit more info. Some BIR Vindaloos add in potato but that's not do do with the spicing.
I don't know what other members think but I've found that Scottish BIRs use more spicing than English ones, so for example our Madras is stronger, i.e. nearer to Vindaloo level of spicing than you might find in England.
I think, like all cookery, even BIR has regional variations and customs.
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Hi Stephen,
Totally agree, there are definately regional variances. I think that's where most of the debates arise from on this site, one mans tater hash, is another mans pan of scouse lol.
Just the history of the BIR throws up quite a debate. The brummies will claim it was there that it was popularised, Glaswegians will no doubt claim like wise. I know here in Manchester, the Rusholme BIR's will tell you that it was them that kicked it off in the early days! All adds to some great debate!
Ray
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Razor,
madras, vindaloo and phall (to a lesser extent - it's quite close to vindaloo) are very different - too much to just be accounted for by chilli. i've only really felt we have madras recipes on the site. i've not come across a proper vindaloo (as per BIR) - it must be a dark colour and probably made with vinegar. i have it on my mind at some point to use the ashoka south indian garlic sauce as a foundation for sort of merging with CA's vindaloo (best i've come across).
on the sugar/honey. i don't use sugar at all. i do use honey in butter chicken and it is well underrated as a BIR ingredient.
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Also, has anyone tried substituting sugar for clear honey. I do at the "adding the spice stage" and it really helps in getting that toffee aroma and just seems to give the dish a nicer ??? sweetness than sugar!
Ray
I havent tried that but can imagine it works well. I was told to use golden syrup for chinese cooking by a cantonese chef in England and it works well. Better than honey in my opinion because the taste is less obvious.
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Hi Jerry,
madras, vindaloo and phall (to a lesser extent - it's quite close to vindaloo) are very different - too much to just be accounted for by chilli.
I think you are probably correct with regards to Madras, Vindaloo & Phall these day's. I guess I'm still stuck in the 80's when a curry was only eaten after a couple of gallons of beer ;D
With that said, the chef from the Kushi book does suggest that this is the case. Wether or not he is really revealing is restaurant secrets, or just selling his book, he only knows!
Ray
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Hi Chinois,
I havent tried that but can imagine it works well. I was told to use golden syrup for chinese cooking by a cantonese chef in England and it works well. Better than honey in my opinion because the taste is less obvious.
It does work well IMO and with regards to the taste, you don't really taste the honey, it just adds a sweetness that isn't sugar if that makes any sense? The one thing that was missing from my curries was a certain sweetness that I wasn't achieving by using sugar, honey took me closer to "that taste" lol
Ray
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Razor,
i've sort of still got my heart in the 80's as this was a time when we frequented BIR's.
i feel things are starting to get more dumbed down in terms of hotness. friends who would never contemplate a vindaloo hot are now eating it regular. when u taste it u know it's just not vindaloo but u can't tell anyone that.
all the best. i do have it on my list to get to an old style vindaloo but have a few urgent recipes 1st (sylheti and bahar). CA's vindaloo does get u very close as long a u close u're eyes.
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madras, vindaloo and phall (to a lesser extent - it's quite close to vindaloo) are very different - too much to just be accounted for by chilli.
That certainly matches my experience Jerry. I would have been offended in my curry eating hayday if the only difference were the number of tsps of chilli they added to make the difference. No, it used to be a very definite change of spicing and different amounts of tomato puree. And definitely not a hint of any sourness by the addition of vinegar or lemon juice to any of them.
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Just read this on another website. You guys have probably heard this before but an interesting read nonetheless, especially for a novice like meself :)
VINDALOO
The widespread belief is that Vindaloo owes its origins to Portugese colonial India, where it was traditionally a Potato, Pork and Vinegar curry from Goa. I suspect Vin related to Wine or Vinegar and Aloo is Indian for Potato. In Indian restaurants today, the term Vindaloo is really indicative of the strength or heat of the curry. It usually has diced potatoes in the sauce along with the chosen meat or chicken. However, I can?t ever remember seeing pork as an option. I wonder why? Vindaloo is ?hotter? than a Madras.
However, more informed opinion shared with me states tha Vindaloo originated from Vindalho which is derived from vinho or wine (vin is French so that is not the right word) and alho which is garlic. Not aloo as no one spoke Hindi in Goa during the Portuguese regime. Potatoes are added to alleviate the piquancy of the dish. A lot of vinegar was used so people say the VIN could have come from vinagre. But even so the local wine or feni is still added in a good vindalho which is always made of Pork. Other vindalhos appeared on the scene because Hindu and Muslims do not eat pork.
Interesting I think!
Ray
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Secret Santa,
exactly it for me too. that difference in spicing is something i continually ponder. i think it will be harder to crack even than madras. i'm no longer certain on the vinegar/lemon front though.
the only part i don't like of a vindaloo is the use of potato - we always asked for it to be left out.
very different amounts of tom puree unless masked out by the other ingredients in the vindaloo.
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temporary patches like sugar or honey or golden syrup dont stand the test of time, from my experience. they are essentially only patches. the bir chef i know sees sweetness coming from ingredients like fennel, tomato, onions, not sugar. for me its a big step back adding sugar to e.g madras. try getting the sweetness from other ingredients , its alot better flavour.
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Hi Derek,
I cant ever imagine a BIR chef using honey as a matter of course, just the expense alone would rule it out. I just experimented with it and it give me a marked improvement from where I was at. I agree, the natural sugars from onion and tomato is definately the way forward I just wonder how the bir's do this as it would prolonge the cooking time! I assume then, that it must be a pre-cooked thing such as Panpot's Bunjara?, another thing that I haven't mastered lol.
Oh well, the quest continues :)
Ray
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hi razor, yes banjurra paste is great stuff. i made some last week. i also let the onions in the base pre cook for a long time in some oil to bring out the sweetness, before adding the rest of the base ingredients.
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Hi Derek,
That's interesting as I just usually boil the onions with the rest of the ingredients. So how long would you suggest frying the onions for and in how much oil before adding everything else?
I am currently using the Kushi base which requires 1kg of onions. It's quite a versatile base which can be used for most curries except Korma but I wouldn't say that it is "sweet" to the taste. Maybe your suggestion of frying the onions first will give it that sweetness in the background?
Ray
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the only part i don't like of a vindaloo is the use of potato - we always asked for it to be left out.
Oh, that's definitely down to personal taste then because, even though we know it shouldn't really be in there, I love the potato in a vindaloo.
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I was told by my local chef why there are a couple of chunks of potato in a Vindaloo,
Its so the waiters can tell the difference between a Vindaloo and a Madras when the dishes leave the kitchen,
Just a thought.....
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Ach mal,
That actually made me laugh out loud ;D No disrespect meant. That would be so funny if that was true lol
Ray
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Razor/DD,
the onion frying is something i've never really felt worth the effort http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3366.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3366.0), http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698). i have used it Ivan Gough's AIR and have done a few trials. i use a lot more oil in the base (to reclaim) and feel it does the same trick providing the simmer is long enough (2 hrs). i also feel the bunjarra adds that little touch of caramelised onion too.
i guess DD must sort of make "hot dog" onions and then start the base for real. it would be interesting to know more about why DD makes time for the extra effort.
ps which is the kushi base - can't recall it yet i use the mix powder quite a lot (it's 1 of 3 i keep stocked LB & aka being the other 2).
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i just fry the onions in 3rd of a cup of oil for 15 mins then commence the rest (spanish onions) . i dont cook the other ingredients that long after. the whole base is done in an hour. with a handblender for speed. it just brings out the natural sugars in onion. i dont use sugar or any similar stuff for curry. i want a truly authentic bir curry. not some anglosised version with sugar and worcester sauce.
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i want a truly authentic bir curry. not some anglosised version with....worcester sauce.
Ah, sorry Derek, I think it must have been adriandavidb and/orJerry that says their favourite BIR in Gatwick uses it in their madras then?
PS: but BIR curries ARE anglosised versions of Indian curries DD! ::)
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yes they are CA, but i sometimes feel some members anglosise them a stage further still. But thats a personal taste thing , obviously. Some bir are packed every week yet i dont enjoy there curries. These are the ones that push anglosising indian curry to the extreme. it pays well, but i hate there curries. i can tell some members here like that approach. and emulate it in there curries. obviously it comes back to a personal preference again. in many ways it adds more interest to the forum, if some members go off on different tangents to others. its all good
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CA,
not a place for me gatwick - not with ringway so close.
i am guilty though of sometimes adding worcester sauce to madras. the last time is probably over 1 yr ago. i note that it is high in this Japanese umarmi thing though.
i intend getting to sylheti some time this yr and have worcester sauce on the list to try out (from Mrs Balbir sing's book i think).
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ps which is the kushi base - can't recall it yet i use the mix powder quite a lot (it's 1 of 3 i keep stocked LB & aka being the other 2).
Hi Jerry, it's from the "Authentic Balti Curry" book. Actually, someone may want to move this but here goes!
Recipe moved to recipe section here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4283.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4283.0)
Hope that helps Jerry, it took me fekin ages to type :(
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Very interesting recipe Razor.
Nice one. ;)
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Very interesting recipe Razor.
Nice one. ;)
Thanks Mikka but not my recipe, it comes from the "Authentic Balti Curry" cookbook. I just posted it for Jerry as he was asking about it.
Ray
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Razor,
thanks u're a real star. i like the look of the base and it has quite a few interesting areas for me. i'll have a look in more detail but am pretty sure i'll give it a go.
many many thanks.
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Hi Jerry,
I've tried a couple of different bases, SS's, KD's and the BE ones but I always end up back with this one for some reason. I think it's because I use the Kushi spice blend, they must just compliment each other as you would expect. It's quite versitile but if your thinking of using it for a CTM, I personally would leave out the chilli powder! Likewise with the Kushi spice mix.
Interestingly, The Kushi restaurant don't use this base for their Korma, they have a specific base that they use for Korma's alone!!
I bet your gonna ask me for that one now arn't ya ;D
Ray
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Ray,
no. we're not into korma's.
i've tried quite a few bases and feel i can see what this base will taste like (very good for sure). there are few interesting parts which caught my eye. the proportions and total amount of whole spice, the inclusion of mace, the proportions and total amount of spice mix.
i've used mace before when i used to make my own garam. it's a sort of medicine taste and i'd been thinking of adding it for a while now to pep up my oil. i'd also been thinking of x2 the whole spice (i use 4 bay, 4 cardamom, 1 off anis, 2" cinnamon per base). i've also come to the conclusion that i don't feel curry powder and garam work well in a base - i prefer individual spices. this base will test this theory. i've not tried methi in base before. i also prefer nowadays cinnamon c/w casia although i've used casia for many years. i also still use casia in non curry cooking as sometimes it's just what u need.
i'll have a good look at the how the base compares this morning in terms of oil, onion etc.
i do rate the kushi spice mix and that wraps it up for me - top notch base nothing less. i hope to make next w/e to spec.
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Hi Jerry
Just to point something out before you give this a go, most other bases I have done have a tomatoey note to them whereas this doesn't. It's quite a strange taste to describe but the books author describes it as tasting "soapy". I wouldn't describe it quite like that myself and I don't think he is doing himself any favours with that decription, but you certainly know that you have used whole spices in there.
Which gets me pondering, once again, what is the difference between Batli & BIR? Is it the addition of whole spices in the base and the considerable variety of spices in the spice mix? Still haven't worked this one out yet ???
Ray
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Ray,
anything for me with a tomatoey note is no good. wholes spices are an essential for me.
i think the difference is down purely to spice mix and ingredients in the dish. having said that who knows for sure. i would relate casia more to balti than cinnamon so there could be slight differences in the base too. we had balti from our local TA this week very different to what u get on alum rock road though. both are very nice just different.