Curry Recipes Online
Supplementary Recipes (Curry Powders, Curry Paste, Restaurant Spice Mixes) => Supplementary Recipes Chat => Topic started by: artistpaul on October 06, 2009, 09:29 PM
-
Following on from a post a few months ago by Haldi regarding his use of old oil, here are my observations
Hi Haldi
A perfect post
( I posted something similiar a while ago but it seemed not to click with members? )
AND its something Ive been doing for many months now too, even before I read your post.
Im living in Turkey now but have been cooking Indian and Asian food for years
I ALWAYS make my base from 50% Old oil & 50% new
I get mine from a Fried Chicken fast takeaway joint here, just when its getting nice and dark in colour, just before they get rid of it
Exactly like you do.
Ive no problem getting BIR taste now EVERY time
And to answer this question or comment I see from other members re your original post '' Im sure Indian Restaurants dont go around Chicken Takeaways etc scavenging waste / old oil '' the answer is easy - they dont have to,
All Indian restaurants have a deep fat frier for doing Bhagies, poppadoms etc = this is their source of old oil
Members cannot replicate this oil at home as its the sheer volume of cooking that does the trick.
Dont believe me? Try cooking fresh oil for long enough yourself with enough food items in a batch of oil & see if you can get it to turn almost black. I dont think so. It will have turned rancid from age before that happens.
Old restaurant oil is relatively young and thus fresh, its the volume of cooking that does the business to the oil.
Just try it and you will see.
Just dont take or use old oil that has had fish cooked in it aswell, that WONT work
Smell it, if its savoury and turned almost black, its perfect
Dont be skeptical, first try it, then report back!
-
Hi Paul
I haven't tried it but I am very open minded when it comes to trying new ideas. The problem for me is that I have cooked in a BIR kitchen and had a private lesson by the head chef who answered all my questions. One of the first was whether they use fresh oil or if the use old stuff from the fryers. he sounded almost offended that I had asked such a question. They only use fresh clean oil in every stage of the process.
Now that's not to say that old oil trick doesn't work. My theory is that the BIR taste comes from an almost burnt taste. In the case of the BIR (and those with 8 KW home burners) that flavour is achieved by the flames licking up the sides of the pan and semi-flambeeing the curry. I think using old oil does the same job but without the need of such a powerful burner.
The most important thing is that you have a method that works for you and hopefully will work for other members if they give it a go. I dont have a big burner at home so I'll be giving this a go as soon as I can find a source of oil!
-
There must be a way of making oil that has some of the right properties at home? some members must have oldish oil from all those bhajis? we need some confirmation. what about old chip oil. i have plenty of that.
-
If this forum cannot agree and replicate or disprove this old oil theory then whats the point of it all? i have no experience of making bhajis and popadums as i have been too busy with madras, rogan josh and jalfrezzi etc. i think i need to learn how to make them , and then start building up some old oil for testing purposes. how many members have tried using old oil they have managed to produce at home?
-
If this forum cannot agree and replicate or disprove this old oil theory then whats the point of it all.....how many members have tried using old oil they have managed to produce at home?
Hi DD,
There are several existing threads on replicating the oil.
Here's one of them (with links to others): http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.0)
I believe it can be "synthesised, why not?!
In fact I am busy filtering some right this very moment. It appears promising (i.e. it smells and looks good). If you hold onto your horses, for a short while, I'll post a photo and the procedure I used to make it (in the thread I referenced). :P
-
Guys I love the fact that we are all on the search for the Holy Grail and that we continue to find all manner of ideas to get us closer and old oil does make sense to me.
Like Chriswig I had the experience of being in the kitchens at The Ashoka with the head chef who showed me everything. He only used a little oil from the top of the base sauce or from the bunjarra.
The other night back in The Glasgow area I had a Dopiazza from my local TA that has an open plan layout so you can more or less see everything.
The chef uses an aluminium pan that has just been used for another curry however he didn't seem to use oil he started with the garlic/ginger paste and tomato paste with a little water from a pan of pre cooked chicken. I assume there is enough oil in the paste to get things started.
As we also know having some flame licking around and constantly scraping the burning sides down into the curry adds flavour and smell too.
I also noticed a huge plastic tub of Khyber brand Ghee though didn't see it or any oil going into my dish that night. Cheers Panpot
-
My theory is that the BIR taste comes from an almost burnt taste. In the case of the BIR (and those with 8 KW home burners) that flavour is achieved by the flames licking up the sides of the pan and semi-flambeeing the curry. I think using old oil does the same job but without the need of such a powerful burner.
I agree with this. when i tried the old oil it was not jet black (pretty dark brown i'd describe it as) and i'm sure not as good for the job as what haldi & artistPaul have used (i used oil from my 2nd fryer which is used to cook bhajis & chicken).
what it did do was have a stark effect on the finished dish. i felt i almost got a double helping and was not good in anyway at all. i actually hated the taste. it was nothing like BIR.
I do feel using curry gravy oil for cooking does add an extra depth. it's not essential though if all the other pieces of the jigsaw are in place - this week i'd run out of curry oil and used olive oil for the 2nd time - not bad at all. not top notch but not bad.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/oldoil002_1.jpg)
-
I'll post a photo and the procedure I used to make it (in the thread I referenced). :P
Posted here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg34667;topicseen#msg34667 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg34667;topicseen#msg34667)
-
Not trying to be a party pooper here, but oil that that has been reheated many times times changes chemically and can become EXTREMELY unhealthy.
We all know that saturated fat is (generally) unhealthy; trans-fats (i.e. hydrogenated vegtable oils), VERY unhealthy; poly-unsaturated oils (eg sunflower), are to some extent "a-healthy" (neither good nor bad); and mono-unsaturated oils (eg olive) relatively healthy.
However, the normally 'neutral' polyunsaturates such as sunflower oil become very bad for you after only being heated to smoking-point ONCE, let alone on countless occasions!
The 'healthy-ness' ranking of the various oils and fats changes markedly when considering whether or not they have been heated!
I have read that olive oil does not become particularly unhealthy after heating, so I may be tempted to try Jerry's suggestion of using it in curry; I've only been put-off in the past by reports that it does not taste good in curry - although I use it all the time in 'Med' type food such as spag bol etc. Jerry's report that it is OK gives a new light on this.
At present I use groundnut oil for curry: it's 'cold healthyness' ranking puts it slightly below olive, but healthier than most; and according to the scientific literature, heating does not have quite the negative impact on it that it does on sunflower oil, for example.
Now I enjoy deep fried BIR stuff as much as everyone else on here, and I'm sure many are aware of what I've said above; but it is worthwhile knowing about this.....
-
From what I've read the post above from adriandavidb is correct.
The relatively healthy poly-unsaturates can turn nasty when repeatedly heated. These oils include sunflower and canola (rapeseed) which are cheap and popular.
I'm no health freak being a smoker and drinker but I won't be adding to my bad habits by using ancient takeaway oil.
PaulP - off for a smoke now ;)
-
Hi again everyone.
Im happy my post has at least been taken seriously ;D
Just a few points to clarify matters having now read the various members posts
Firstly I add the old oil is to the base only.
I start a fresh curry in the pan using fresh oil, as some members have also observed being done in various commercial kitchens
In previous posts, other members have often observed chefs adding excess oil scavanged from finished dishes back into the base saucepan.
So, same result as making Base with old oil from the outset surely?
And thats a good reason why sometimes commercial kitchen curries can have an off day taste wise, as the base may be too new & hasnt yet had or had enough old/ scavenged oil added back in.
Finally, one member mentioned that even reheating oil once is dangerous, surely all chip shops would therefore being breaking health & safety laws as they change their oil usually only on a weekly basis.
Lastly using old chip oil as another member suggested definitely does NOT work and will produce a disgusting taste.
-
You guys are undoubtedly correct but, from my point of view, if that's what's required to truly replicate BIR curries then I'm game to try it!
At least (worst case) I'll only die trying! :P
As you say, it's a personal choice and we can all make an informed decision about it in the end..... :P
-
Many Thanks Cory Ander
Yes give it a go, its def gonna change your curries for ever!
BUT BUT BUT I meant to add.......................
I ALWAYS use Panpots Ashoka Bunjarra Onion Paste in dishes which require it or / and use the excess oil from the jar of Banjarra to start a curry sometimes ( not necessary for Kormas etc ).
This paste was and is a revelation to the search for the extra missing 5% we all searched for over many years
TOP MARKS TO PANPOT
RESPECT MAN ;)
Use Panpot's paste ( in the particular dishes its needed ), old oil as Ive described and you have curry bliss on your plate, truly.
-
i have given it a go and by all means give it a go yourself - it may do it for u. it's a clear no no for me. the oil i used had cooked nothing more than bhajis and fried chicken - i can not be a million miles away from the full spec stuff. it was close enough to give me a clear indication.
in short if u can cook somewhere else to u're kitchen ie smoke & mess are not a problem then invest in high output burner.
-
just been thinking a bit more on this subject.
i saw at the time of the malik webcam black oil going into their base. i believe other BIR's do the same. we don't know for sure how good malik's output is but everthing suggests a clear yes vote. i am also pretty sure 99% that my local TA does not use it.
when i tried the black oil - i used the recommended 50:50 black:fresh. this was too overpowering for me. i do feel i get the result i'm after using the high output stove and hence don't intend doing anymore on the black oil. however for those relying on their kitchen hobs then there might be some gain to be had in using a lower proportion - something more like 15:85. who knows. it's just a thought.
-
I am very happy with my Curries ( sNs base & Madras recipe ) easily as good if not better than the few T/A's we use so no intention on using old oil but good luck to the ones who feel this is ' The Way ' ;)
-
I am very happy with my Curries ( sNs base & Madras recipe ) easily as good if not better than the few T/A's we use so no intention on using old oil but good luck to the ones who feel this is ' The Way ' ;)
My curries turn out perfect every time, exactly like a takeaway curry and I would never consider using old oil. For health reasons it is very bad for you. I think that some people may have seen chefs using it in takeaway's because it is easy to use, rather than having seperate containers for keeping the oil in, they can just skim some of the top of the fryer each time and then top that up each day.
Not all curries that you can get from takeaways are healthy for you and they are not all made with the exact same ingredients. You can go in to two different takeaway's a couple of doors away from each other and order the same meal and they won't both taste exactly the same but they both may taste fantastic.
Once you have mastered how to make BIR curries you are going to be eating them for many years to come, so you may as well try to make them as healthy as you can and then you can eat them for a few years more.
-
we don't know for sure how good malik's output is but everthing suggests a clear yes vote. i am also pretty sure 99% that my local TA does not use it.
How do you work that out? That "everything suggests a clear yes vote"! Unless I've missed several posts, then I don't think anyone has posted any kind of review or feedback at all on Maliks, have they? Their curries could be as awful as several local places I know.
Also, I'd be fairly certain there's quite a lot going on at your local take away which they might not be very keen to tell you about, so I'd be sceptical about your 99% confidence rating.
-
How do you work that out? That "everything suggests a clear yes vote"! Unless I've missed several posts, then I don't think anyone has posted any kind of review or feedback at all on Maliks, have they? Their curries could be as awful as several local places I know.
I agree George, to my knowledge nobody has tried anything from Maliks and reported back! Could be total crap for all we know! Or brilliant, of course! :P
-
the observation on maliks is purely down to customers continuing to traipse through their door. i quite agree u need to taste to be sure but stoke is not a happy place for me despite them speaking the lingo. i like to go in and come out. i do keep meaning to do a drive past but the inclination's just not their.
the observation on my local TA is down to taste. i know what their base taste's like. i also know what taste the black oil brings.
-
Guys just a small point. The Ashoka chef suggested that we consider substituting olive oil for the margarine when making the base sauce for health reasons. Personally I would like to but have yet to take the risk in case it effects the taste though he didn't feel that it would. He repeatedly stated that at home he would use more expensive and healthier options while cooking eg red onions and olive oil. Cheers PP
-
the observation on my local TA is down to taste. i know what their base taste's like. i also know what taste the black oil brings.
Yes, but that's different to knowing what goes into those elements. A simple example might be salt. I'd wager that most BIRs use a lot more salt than most of us would be happy putting in at home, so we probably cut it down ' to make it healthier' and yet we don't think about that every time we go to a BIR for a takeaway or sit down meal. Another example is anyone who says they don't like pineapple or something and so leave it out. I bet they've had BIR Dhansaks and other dishes with pineapple included which the same members thought were delicious. BIRs are, as yet, almost totally unregulated. They don't have to provide analyses of ingredients, like supermarkets do.
PS your conclusions on Maliks are totally irrational on the basis that it must somehow be good just because they haven't gone bankrupt!
-
i dont think this old oil idea is correct, just for the sheer fact the restaurant wouldnt be able to produce enough old oil for curries. as curry uses a fair amount of oil and will be the biggest selling item, i cant see how old pakora and bhaji oil would keep up with the demand to keep a uniform product. infact i doubt there would be more than a few deep fat friers of the stuff a week, which would hardly be enough for all the curries they would sell in that time.
-
jimmy2x,
real good point. it also stacks up for me with the thought of only using a small amount of black oil in proportion to the rest of the oil.
has anyone tried using less than the prescribed 50:50 ratio.
Panpot,
i've used olive oil twice now at frying stage and it was very good. far better than expected. i see it working just as good as your chef says in base. i'd keep a little of the marg though as this does magic for me.
-
i've used olive oil twice now at frying stage and it was very good
Personally I tried it once (was out of veg) and found it added completely the wrong flavour for Indian food. I relegated olive oil to the "never try again" list.
Maybe though if you use significantly less oil than you would for a finished curry you might get away with it. But 5 tbsp of olive oil floating around ruined the dish for me.
-
The Ashoka chef suggested that we consider substituting olive oil for the margarine when making the base sauce for health reasons.
I assumed that the margarine was in the base to impart a particular "creaminess" to it? I can't see that substituting olive oil for it would achieve the same?
-
it also stacks up for me with the thought of only using a small amount of black oil in proportion to the rest of the oil.
has anyone tried using less than the prescribed 50:50 ratio.
I'm not sure this was ever "prescribed" Jerry? I understood that Haldi just chose to do this because he witnessed his BIR adding "some" used oil and "some" fresh oil to their base. And guessed it to be about 50:50?
-
CA,
yes the marg adds that creaminess for me and the olive oil won't cut it the same for sure.
the idea of using less of the black oil came from the fact that it produced overkill in taste for me when i tried it. as u know from the smokiness post - i (and i am sure u) don't need the black oil. i don't intend to use it.
where i was coming from was that if u're unable to use a high heat burner (down to the smoke and mess it produces) u could try a smaller proportion of the black oil. it may work but it may not. i have learnt a lot from haldi's posts and the success reported niggles me that there must be something there. i consequently believe there must be potentially 2 pieces of jigsaw that fit this particular gap.
-
I remember watching a cooking program years ago with an Indian chef (can't remember name of program or chef) but olive oil (at that time) was a big no no, to strong a flavour. How times change when chefs are now saying it's ok to use.
About the old oil issue, I have mentioned somewhere on this site before about the owner/chef of a restaurant I frequented telling me that 'burnt oil' was used in the gravy (base sauce) and dishes. I never got to find out what he meant by 'burnt'.
Cheers