Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: chriswg on July 19, 2009, 10:16 AM
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I have just been reading through a lot of the old base sauce and vindaloo recipe archives and there is a recurring theme that has been touched on a number of times but never really explored in any great detail. With all the member here trying and experimenting with different permutations of ingredients and cooking methods you would think by now someone would have hit on the perfect recipe, but it hasn't happened. Everyone here is constantly changing their ideas trying to get the authentic BIR taste and smell.
What I have noticed from personal experience and from a number of other reports is that the Indian chefs themselves can't recreate the BIR taste at home. If they cant do it, what hope have we got? Obviously the taste is achievable in their restaurant kitchens so maybe what we should be looking for isn't a magic ingredient (that we all deep down know doesn't exist otherwise someone would have uncovered it by now), but rather something that they have there that we don't have at home.
Some have suggested burners with enough power to get super high heat, but surely the spices, garlic, ginger etc would burn too quickly? Maybe its down to the fact the base sauce keeps simmering for about 10 hours a day and is presumably kept for a couple of days at a time? I have certainly sometimes had runny bland curry's from my favourite BIR one day and then a thick really tasty one from the same place a few days later. I put it down to getting a dodgy sous-chef that day, but maybe it was down to the batch of base sauce being fresh that day. Certainly when I have had a bad Vindaloo, my wifes CTM has also been poor but when mine is excellent, hers has too.
Maybe there is another element we are failing to see? Maybe the taste is only achievable when cooking the base vast quantities. A carvery roast beef is always much nicer than a small joint cooked at home.
I honestly believe is we can crack the cooking method then the ingredients are much less important (as with the onion bhajis IMO).
Jerry and CA, as usual it would be great to hear your conflicting thoughts on this subject. It would also be great to hear if anyone has simmered their completed base sauce for 6 - 8 hours after blending to see if that makes any difference.
I'm going for a Rajver base and Vindaloo this evening so I am contemplating making the base at lunch and simmering it all day. I also have a very powerful wok burner on my range cooker so I'll have no problem achieving the high heats that the BIR's get.
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chriswg,
u don't do things by halves.
i must admit i never feel myself and CA have conflicting views. CA has far better english and is well ahead of me so i always listen to what he say's. the number of what i'd call crucial posts are all by CA and that for me say's enough.
"Indian chef's can't recreate at home" - there are quite a few ideas on this conspiracy:
1) to do with the batches of base and how they work their pots (dregs start the next etc)
2) adding chip pan/bhajis oil
3) burner (and i'd add mess in u're kitchen)
4) scaling down from big pots
the longest i think i've simmered base is about 6 hrs. i've also tasted real BIR base. i know it's not down to the longer the better. i stop at around 3 hrs and certainly no longer than 4hrs.
i do swear by my high heat stove but realise having tried the slowboat approach it's not crucial for everyone. i'd also add that u can't cook in your kitchen at that heat (big extract needed for the smoke). the slowboat gets u very close but it does not produce the smokiness (depend if u need it though - even my wife can tell the difference though). not being a pooper but i don't think u're wok burner will do it unless it's around 7kw. i don't know for sure where the cut off is. i know 3 kw is no good. i know the stove is around 8wk and more than enough.
the other big area for me is consistency. my last BIR TA madras was not as good as norm yet cooked by the No1 chef. i find everything needs to come together exactly right and just a very slight variation can have a big effect. i'm starting to think (other than ease) this is why BIR chef's use sight to measure by. i've given using spoons my best shot but still find inconsistency. measuring by sight is not that practical at home though i feel.
recipe refinement is the only other thing on my radar. some of the site's recipe are very close to BIR (blind folded u'd be hard pressed to tell). most are good but would benefit hugely from that extra mile.
the rajver i do like (in my top 3). i'd thought about making the vindaloo but never done so as i would be cooking only for myself as opposed to the family who just about sit well with madras hot. will look fwd to your results.
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It's a good question Chris, and one that's been asked many times before.
My view is that, until we can get an answer to the question from some pukka BIR chefs (i.e. "why can't you reproduce these curries at home?"), then we will always be speculating, going around in circles, and retreading old ground.
So my challenge to everyone is to ask their local BIR owners/chefs the following questions (in the most diplomatic and surreptitious way, of course!):
- can you reproduce these curries at home?
- if not, why not?
- what is it that you need from the BIR to do so?
They may also not know the answers of course! Mainly because they may not have ever considered them.
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hi chris
when you make a base make it the day before you intend to cook with it, i know the restaurants very rarely use the new made base unless they have too, hence the reason a bland curry. the reason i say this and correct me if you think i'm wrong, the spices need to cool to relax and the sugars from the veg also enhance their flavours when cooled. tonight try this when you have made the base taste it, use it tonight to cook your vindaloo. then cool and refrigerate and tomorrow taste the base cold, you will notice the flavours and smell of the sauce has sweetened and you could eat it as it is, and the sauce will have thickened as well. it is just like people say their curries taste better the next day the same reason!
regards
gary
ps i love vindaloo ;D
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The very fact that I (we all) struggle to produce a consistant curry - whether good or bad is evidence enough to me that it is ALL about technique as opposed to "the secret ingredient." Perhaps some members have perfected their technique but don't bother to disclose this - judging by the fact that there are over 9000 members to the site, there are only a very small proportion of people who actually contribute to this site.
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The very fact that I (we all) struggle to produce a consistant curry - whether good or bad is evidence enough to me that it is ALL about technique as opposed to "the secret ingredient." Perhaps some members have perfected their technique but don't bother to disclose this - judging by the fact that there are over 9000 members to the site, there are only a very small proportion of people who actually contribute to this site.
I seem to remember Bruce Edwards stating base got better the longer it was kept before use, up to three days as I recall? My best efforts have often been with 3 day old base ,albeit kept in the fridge.
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I agree with mickdabass that it is down to technique.
The wife and I had a Madras from our 2nd favourite T/A last night and it was awful >:( It was so bland it was no more than base plus a bit of Chili powder.
When I arrived to collect my Curry ( pre ordered )I had to wait twenty minutes as they were so busy ,it is also a restaurant and it was manic :o I don't believe they used any less ingredients but rushed the cooking of my Curry which gave a poor result. :'(
I have regularly made better tasting Curries than even my favourite T/A ( confirmed by my Curryholic family who use various T/A including my favourite and that was with the sns base and Madras recipe when I first joined the forum ,although my favourite T/A make a very nice Madras with less ingredients in their Base and Curry.
At the moment I am trying to replicate the taste of my favourite T/A using the ingredients and method they use ( I watched my Curry being made in their kitchen )at the moment I'm struggling :'(
But to answer your question IMO I don't think there is any ' magic 'Spice we are not using just that we need to perfect our technique.
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It's a good question Chris, and one that's been asked many times before.
My view is that, until we can get an answer to the question from some pukka BIR chefs (i.e. "why can't you reproduce these curries at home?"), then we will always be speculating, going around in circles, and retreading old ground.
So my challenge to everyone is to ask their local BIR owners/chefs the following questions (in the most diplomatic and surreptitious way, of course!):
- can you reproduce these curries at home?
- if not, why not?
- what is it that you need from the BIR to do so?
They may also not know the answers of course! Mainly because they may not have ever considered them.
Words of wisdom from CA, as usual! I agree that this thread looks like being the latest re-run of previous thoughts already thrashed to death. I'm sorry to say I disagree with Chris that these issues "have never really explored in any great detail." God save us from going round in circles for the n-th time! I agree with you, CA, that the best way forward is an entirely fresh approach.
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we need to perfect our technique.
emin-j,
would encourage u to post here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0) i feel i've eventually got sorted but struggled too. yet i still feel further discussion would be helpful to us all.
ps will chk if my posts are upto date
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Thanks everyone for your posts. This argument has obviously been raging for several years but it is a shame there is still no definitive answer to the perfect method.
It would be great if a few people could quiz their local chefs with the questions CA suggests. I'm sure the answers are within our collective grasp. I'll see what answers I can get from my local TA next time I pop in.
My vindaloo yesterday was extremely good. I opted for a CK recipe and it was simple yet really nice. I made a few changes to the base recipe. Mainly I heated 300 ml of oil in the pan and added the spices to it when it was hot. I figured this would release more flavour from the spices as well as flavouring the oil for later reclaim. I also used a combination of fresh peeled tomatoes and a tin of chopped tomatoes. For my personal preference I think it needed at least 15 fresh tomatoes, not the 6 I had.
The other thing made the base better than my previous attempts was using a hand blender in the pot and not over blending. In the past I have always read it should go in a blender for at least 5 mins to get a totally smooth sauce. I thought having a bit of texture to the sauce really made it taste more authentic. I also simmered it for a good 4 - 5 hours in total then skimmed off the oil.
As previously suggested I have tried it today, and yes, it definitely tastes even better. It was a bit bland yesterday but the flavours are really starting to come through now. I think that should be an essential point to all recipes, at least a 24 hour rest period after making it before use.
The final curry wasn't hot enough for me despite adding 6 - 7 tsps of hot chilli powder. It would have been mild for a Madras, so I definitely have some learning to do with the final part but for me, I don't think I'll have any need for a better base.
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we need to perfect our technique.
emin-j,
would encourage u to post here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0) i feel i've eventually got sorted but struggled too. yet i still feel further discussion would be helpful to us all.
ps will chk if my posts are upto date
JerryM , The point I was trying to make to chriswg is if your favourite T/A cant always get it right it's most likely down to the Chef rather than a 'secret ingredient '.
I believe we all use basically the same ingredients and can all produce a Curry as good as your local BIR and if your local T/A sold you one of YOUR Curry's you would probably say ' it was fantastic '. ;)When will we stop looking for the ' Holy Grail '
and get on with the cooking (http://www.picpiggy.com/smile/animals/animal0028.gif) (http://www.picpiggy.com)
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the chef at my local always gives me the freshly made base , and comments "this will taste best". this is when he has a pot of old base, and a pot of new base, next to it. therefore fresh base is his preference, over 2 or 3 day old base. hope that puts an end to that myth, that old base somehow improves over time. its nonsense.
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DD - how do the curries you make compare when you use the BIR base, and when you use any of the ones off this site?
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I have just had some interesting chats with 2 Indian head chefs. I work as an IT recruitment consultant so I have access to thousands of CV's and luckily there were a few Indian chefs on there complete with mobile numbers and email addresses.
So first chef said he didn't think it was possible to perfectly replicate the BIR taste at home. This was mainly down to the large quantities they were making not working as well when scaled down to home cooking. He thought the base sauce (Curry King Vindaloo Base and Sauce recipe) sounded very good although he would usually use potato instead of carrot. He thought fresh base sauce was better than old stuff but they would usually use a batch for up to 48 hours.
The second chef was even more helpful and apparently runs cooking classes in Bristol twice a month - www.myristica.co.uk. Although in his current job he is cooking posh indian food rather than BIR style, his previous experience was all BIR based.
He thought with the right ingredients and method it is perfectly possible to get the perfect curry at home, but it takes a lot of practice to get it right. He ran through the main 5 base sauces of traditional Indian cooking. The main one was our standard base in which he said they would use 10kg of onions and 3kg of fresh plum tomatoes along with the usual extras. He also said in India they only use red onions as the white or Spanish onions can taste too sweet. They also have a tomato based base sauce which is basically just tomatoes and onions, then there was a green base which was coriander based, a white base (cant remember what was in that one) and a very dry base. They would use scoops from each to make up the dishes. A Madras for example would 2 scoops of onion base and 1 scoop of tomato base (along with the other spices).
He confirmed that fresh base is better than old base so that myth is comprehensively dispelled now.
He was also nice enough to give me some onion bhaji tips which I'll get working on and post if they are better than my current version.
The final tip he gave was to add a sprinkle of chaat masala on the dishes before serving. This can be on everything from a CTM to a potion of Onion Bhajis. I've never tried the stuff before so I cant comment, but I'll be getting an order in soon.
I have an email address for both of them so I'm sure they would answer any specific questions anyone might have.
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Hi josh. its a question I have often thought about. basically the real bir base was thinner and more grimmy tasting. greenish in color. not a pleasant taste. a neautral tasting grennish veg soup. i often wonder if there was some unusual vegetable in there, such as ocra. this base was nothing like any of our bases. however the good news is, it did nothing to improve my curries. the bases on this site are closer to being quite tasty curry soups, almost edible on there own. the real bir base was not something you would want to eat more than a spoon of. the real bir base certainly did not add a special toffee flavor. so you can all relax!! i dont purchase there base regulary because it made no real difference. they cant sell you anything to get the taste, because its all down to preparation.
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although he would usually use potato instead of carrot.
I wish you had asked him why!
Also I think you need to be careful when you use the term "base" here. The tomato "base", white "base" etc. are, I believe, pastes and not bases (unless you tell me different). There's nothing unusual there, all BIRs do this to some degree or other.
The final tip he gave was to add a sprinkle of chaat masala on the dishes before serving. This can be on everything from a CTM to a potion of Onion Bhajis.
This is what's done in traditional Indian/Pakistani cooking and it, at least in my experience, is not used widely in BIR dishes, and expecially not as a condiment to be added at the end.
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chriswg,
real good investigative work.
my local TA only use 1 off base for all. unlike DD i found their base to taste v.good and now feel i replicate it following much trial and error (it's the adapted CRO2). the nearest as spec base recipe on the site that i've made is the saffron. as DD say's there's something about the texture - being very thin yet full. i've experimented and settled on high onion content as a way of achieving (i use more onion than most site recipe). i've experimented too with potato but would not substitute it for carrot. by all means add potato in (as per saffron).
i am convinced as Secret Santa says in that most are pastes not base as we would understand it.
for info the KD1 defines Chat masala, "ready mixed preparation of salt and spices used for "chats". Its available from Asian and Pakistani grocers in small boxes. i've not used it (and would probably say i don't see a need).
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chriswg Just about to book my cooking class at the Myristica ;)
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emin-j,
the web site does not say much about the course other than 3 hrs on sat'd.
do u have any further details on what it covers. it sounds like the idea maybe for several visits over time.
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I know it covers Onion Bhajis! I'm in negotiations with my wife to go on one of the courses soon. maybe all 3 of us should book on the same course. I imagine between us we could get answers to all the questions we need to know!
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emin-j,
the web site does not say much about the course other than 3 hrs on sat'd.
do u have any further details on what it covers. it sounds like the idea maybe for several visits over time.
JerryM here's a more informative link http://www.myristica.co.uk/S%20P%20E%20C%20I%20A%20L%20S
Basically you make a starter ,main course ( chicken tikka massala )but i have asked to make a Madras ;D and a desert, after about 2.5hrs of cooking we all sit down and eat what we have cooked plus a 1/2 bottle of wine ' on the house ' ;) price is ?50 individual and ?80 for a couple ,I have my Son and Two Daughters plus myself to book for.
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I know it covers Onion Bhajis! I'm in negotiations with my wife to go on one of the courses soon. maybe all 3 of us should book on the same course. I imagine between us we could get answers to all the questions we need to know!
chriswg Luckily i am in Bristol and it's just down the road for me 8)
i have asked if i can cook a Madras rather than the usuall Chicken Tikka Massala they cook on the course. :D
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emin-j,
thanks for extra link (which i'd missed).
it sounds real good value and covers just what i'd want. bristol is a long way by car for me but will check out day rtn prices.
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for info the KD1 defines Chat masala, "ready mixed preparation of salt and spices used for "chats". Its available from Asian and Pakistani grocers in small boxes. i've not used it (and would probably say i don't see a need).
i been thinking about this a bit more and intend to buy a packet of chat masala.
i've picked up on a sort of "seasoning" difference in the dishes from my local TA. i think it could be something like the chat masala or maybe seasoned salt (aromatic salt: 100g salt, 1 tsp all spice, 1 tsp cinnamon). given that i already use salt i'm not confident though. i also don't associate all spice with BIR.
to back up my suspicions i find that i always have to drink water during the night after a TA but not when i've eaten well more of my own cooking. i don't feel it's msg although it could be and i guess i will have to try it too.
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it sounds real good value and covers just what i'd want.
Call me a sceptic but I wouldn't be so sure. They mention 'classic' cooking and making naans while the main dishes cook. I wouldn't be surprised if they dig out some recipes for normal Indian cooking, rather than show how to make their usual BIR fare.
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for info the KD1 defines Chat masala, "ready mixed preparation of salt and spices used for "chats". Its available from Asian and Pakistani grocers in small boxes. i've not used it (and would probably say i don't see a need).
i been thinking about this a bit more and intend to buy a packet of chat masala.
i've picked up on a sort of "seasoning" difference in the dishes from my local TA. i think it could be something like the chat masala or maybe seasoned salt (aromatic salt: 100g salt, 1 tsp all spice, 1 tsp cinnamon). given that i already use salt i'm not confident though. i also don't associate all spice with BIR.
to back up my suspicions i find that i always have to drink water during the night after a TA but not when i've eaten well more of my own cooking. i don't feel it's msg although it could be and i guess i will have to try it too.
JerryM , you gotta use the oil from your Chip Pan mate haldi has found the Holy Grail so dont worry about the Spices , I just cant stop thinking about watching the Chef at my fav T/A he only used the basic Spices except the Spice mix which he makes himself and made a delicious Curry. :'(
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emin-j,
thanks for the kind words.
i think the seasoning is more targeted at recipe refinement (a different piece of the jigsaw). the more i cook myself the more i feel i can sort of analyse my local TA dishes. there is a definite "salt" related difference in the taste. it's not down to salt alone though as i've tried a range already. i don't feel it's spice related either hence my current interest in minimal spicing (i aim to reduce the spice in the next base and also in the curries).
it could be msg but it's not like the thirst u get from a Chinese so i'm not convinced it's it either.
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Hi JerryM
It's interesting what you say about the salt. I find that to get a decent BIR flavour I have to add a decent amount of salt to the curry I'm making. But the problem is that when I taste the curry the next day (cold) it's far too salty, and yet I don't notice this when I first eat the curry hot!
I think MSG must play a part in this and I'll probably try some, with an appropriate reduction in salt, in the near future to assess its effect.
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Secret Santa,
this is niggling me as i feel i can't progress until it's sorted (it's one i may even have to ask my local TA).
i've tried a range of salt from 1/4 tsp to around 1 tsp per potion. we have settled on 1/4 tsp. the taste in the cooked dish does change in the 1st 5 mins when the salt taste seems to come through stronger ie we could go up a little and get closer to BIR say 1/2 tsp. nevertheless though the difference compared to my local TA is not down to salt alone.
i'm going to try the aromatic salt as the allspice is a fav and could well fit the bill with the cinnamon. i reluctantly also feel i've got to try the msg in a small way - i don't want Chinese TA syndrome for sure.
after that i'm stuck. given that most eating houses use far more salt than we would at home (i base this on pizza and lasagna experience) then i don't see how it can be anything else. i can't even see it being down to brand of salt as i use cheapo cooking salt and don't see maldon salt in a BIR somehow.
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Secret Santa,
i've bought some msg - very surprised by the taste not what i expected (not salty). i've also read up on the existing posts and as a result not that confident of significant improvement.
anyhow i have the msg, aromatic salt & black salt lined up to try.
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very surprised by the taste not what i expected (not salty...
Yeah, it only works its magic when it's added to the other ingredients.
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Urrrg. Give the Black Salt a miss...
Every time I've used it it has stuck out like a sore (and smelly) thumb.
Chaat Masala is about as much as I can take of the stuff
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i'm now sorted on the "seasoning" difference.
i used msg for the 1st time last night and did not bother with the aromatic salt or black salt (i may try them at some point for interest).
i'd noticed in a few dishes from my local TA (certainly not all) a different taste to my attempts at reproducing them. the difference not being down to ingredient or spice. all i could explain the difference as was "seasoning" yet i've tried varying salt and that is not it.
the msg effect is quite striking. u only need a very small amount (i used a pinch) and feel next time i will use less and even count the no off crystals. i did get up in the night for water but not to the extent from dishes from my local TA.
the effect is like what a loud hailer does for sound. i'm think i can now reduce the amount of salt i use (and probably other ingredients) without a loss in taste.
for something i'd previously discounted i've done a complete u turn. it's not for sure for all dishes though. i made a kashmiri curry and it did not work in that for example. one to try out and experiment with over a few dishes.
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MSG is a strange product as it doesn't taste Sweet, Sour, Bitter or Sweet which are the 4 main areas that our tongue breaks down tastes into. Instead it is the essence of the 5th (relatively unknown) taste Umami.
Courtesy of Wikipedia:
Umami is one of the five generally recognised basic tastes sensed by specialized receptor cells present on the human tongue. Umami is a loanword from Japanese meaning roughly "tasty", although "brothy", "meaty", or "savory" have been proposed as alternative translations.[1][2] The same taste is also known as xiānw?i (traditional Chinese: 鮮味; simplified Chinese: 鲜味 literally "Fresh Flavor") in Chinese cooking. In as much as it describes the flavor common to savory products such as meat, cheese, and mushrooms, umami is similar to Brillat-Savarin's concept of osmazome, an early attempt to describe the main flavoring component of meat as extracted in the process of making stock.
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just a word of caution on the msg. i've tried it a few times now and think even more that it's use is very limited - only for those dishes on the chefs special list.
i've now tried it in madras and did not feel it works well at all.
i intend to try it in korahi or jalfrezi next. my real objective is to use it in a sylhety or maybe even pathia.
it seems to work well with tom puree and coriander but not with coconut. i'm not sure how it will work with green pepper.
u only need a very small amount - i'm currently putting a 2 finger pinch on the palm of my hand and then pinching 1/2 of it.