Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: emin-j on July 05, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Hi All,
Made my Saturday night Madras last night following the same recipe I had from the T/A Chef as in my previous posts.Last nights Curry was the second Madras I have made using the recipe ,the first ( last week )was delicious :)This weeks was not quite as good and the only change from the original recipe was 1 extra teaspoon of Chili.The Curry tasted too rich which made it a little sickly tasting ( still eat it tho ;D )A couple of points perhaps you might like to comment on -
1, I think I may have cooked the Curry for too long ,perhaps this is what caused the 'over rich 'taste ?
2, I use a Wok for my Curries but the Chef at the T/A used what looked like an Omelette pan :o and he had no spitting and popping like I get ( my Hob and surrounding area looks like a Curry Bomb has exploded ::) )The Chef had no 'flames' whilst cooking as has been mentioned on the Forum and it seemed a very relaxed ,clean ,and quick method of cooking.My Question is - It seems that ' Hotter the better ' cooking temperature is the way to go , but I'm not so sure :-\ Your thoughts please.
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emin-j,
real good question and it will be real interesting to get members views.
on No 1 - i've read in number of posts that members struggle(d) on consistency and would have to say i was a tad sceptic. i now know in experiencing it myself that u can get quite a range of product whilst believing yourself that u've done everything exactly the same.
i don't know what the answer is i'm afraid - only i think simply down to experience and practise. i say this as the range on my curries are gradually closing. my only thought is that with practise/experience u can start to spot early when things are starting to go wrong and make changes. for example the thinness of the base despite calculation and best diligence does have variation and this for me has a big effect on the output.
on the over rich taste - it could be down to over cooking if the sauce "condensed/evaped off" too much. i've also found the amount of tom puree has quite an effect.
on No 2 - there is both "slow boat" and "hot" ways of cooking curry. at my local TA the resident chef uses the hot approach and u can tell before entering the shop that he's in residence. the stand in chef uses the slow boat. it took me by surprise that there's not that much difference in the taste. the hot method just has the edge for me but the slow boat would do the same for probably an equal number of people ie it's just down to what you're used to.
i do feel the "omelette" pan is better than a wok - certainly for the hot method but probably not that critical for the slowboat. i have both but only use the wok for CTM (so i can make a few portions at a time).
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Thank's JerryM ,your replies are allways helpfull and interesting ;)
Compared to how quick the T/A Chef cooked my Curry I had my Curry in the Wok for too long ,I think your spot on when you said the Curry had condensed and I was left with an 'over rich ' tasting Curry.
I did read that a Wok was the best pan to use for a Curry but I might try just a frying pan next time :-\ Asda have a nice stainless pan for ?9 - ?10 :-\
PS I find the Wok gets very hot at the centre of the base and it is easy to burn the Garlic at the start of cooking.
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emin-j,
for info on "hot" cooking i'm done in 5 mins max of which 3 mins is the evap off (the base is thinned with water). on the slow boat i'd say 7 mins max. the difference being the base doesn't need to be thinned and the spice cooking "emulsification" for me is then around 3 mins c/w 1 min at hot (i don't stir during this part). i generally tend to find it's time to stop cooking when the surface starts to crater with steam pin holes. i've also started to cook the garlic as the oil heats up aiming to undercook as it cooks/frys again when the tom puree and spice is added.
i'm not sure on the st st pan (i don't think their that good on heat transfer). perhaps try any of your existing pans first. mines cast steel but BIR's tend to use ali.
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emin-j
Most curries that I cook, are cooked in less than 10 mins and that is a on a baulk standard gas hob.
I use a spun steele wok that I have seasoned over time with use. Mine is 270mm, just over 10 and half inches in old money. It is suitable for one person curries, possibly two at a push.
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Hi emin-j
The trouble with chilli powder is that it tends to thicken the curry, so the more you like it hot the more chile powder is added. This is not good if added at the frying stage along with other spices, as the curry becomes too thick too soon.
Can I suggest you try one (or all) of the following:-
1) Add the chilli powder towards the end of the cooking time - not at the frying stage. Chilli powder and paprika do not require the same degree of frying or heat that other spice powders (cumin, turmeric, etc) need to release their full flavours ...
2) Use a hotter chile powder - therefore less of it.
3) Substitute the required 'extra' chilli powder for real chilies (chopped or whole) added at the frying stage.
Regards
SnS ;D
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Thanks Guys ,
JerryM . I think I'll try the missus frying pan for the next Curry :)I know what you mean about the Garlic ,I put the Garlic into the oil just as the oil started to ' shimmer ? 'and it almost shot out of the Wok :o I guess that was too hot.So I started again and as you placed the Garlic into the oil within seconds of the Wok going on the hob.Going back to the T/A Chef his gas ring was about 8" diameter but not fierce and he didn't have any of the popping and mess that I make ;D
qprbob . I think my Wok is the same as yours ,a spun steel but 12" dia ,they sure do get hot !
SnS. Point noted about the Chili Powder ,I'll try putting it in later rather than with the other spices .
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Going back to the T/A Chef his gas ring was about 8" diameter but not fierce and he didn't have any of the popping and mess that I make
this was something that i came across recently at my fav TA. the main chef does what i call hot cooking "popping and mess" (which i've felt best suits my taste). they have a stand in chef who cook's completely different "slow boat" the flames are very lazy and no mess. the dishes in taste are surprisingly similar albeit u can tell the difference in methods (and the smell in the shop and street).
for me in switching between the methods i have to make the base much thinner (add water) for the hot cooking.
what i'm getting at is the thinness of the base is surprisingly critical to suit both method and ingredients.
on the garlic i find it cooks while the pan's off the heat and i'm adding the tom puree, spice etc and this needs to be factored in - hence why i add before the oil heats up.
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emin-j
Yes the spun steele woks, they get very hot and hold their heat reasonably well. As JerryM pointed out, I put my garlic/ginger in the oil and cook as the oil heats up. You know full well that Garlic can go from being just golden, to burnt in a blink of an eye.
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Hi JerryM ,
I did notice that the base the Chef used at the T/A was thinner than the one I make and It was effortless for him ( practice makes perfect eh !)I also tasted his base ( he did looked surprised when I pulled a teaspoon out of my pocket ;D )
It was a yellowy colour where my base is more orangey and I could taste Onions and Coriander and that was it ,quite bland really ???
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Just a small thing,did the curry taste a bit sharp i.e. the back of your through seems to get a bit acidic?any one else come a cross this ?I never use much chillies powder when making hot Curry's it is a myth use fresh chillies instead its a better sort of heat without that sour taste.
Andy
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emin-j,
i've found that it's best to work on the sort of "safe" side initially by adding "too" much water - the only downside is that the evap off takes longer. u can then start to reduce the extra water and eventually u get a feel for how thin a base should be to suit your own cooking style. i think some members have even said that they keep a jug of water by the base during cooking which is the same but u're then having to react as opposed to plain sailing.
i've added link to my observations on real BIR base for info. the colour was "green/yellow/brown" and very much along what u experienced http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329)
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Just a small thing,did the curry taste a bit sharp i.e. the back of your through seems to get a bit acidic?any one else come a cross this ?I never use much chillies powder when making hot Curry's it is a myth use fresh chillies instead its a better sort of heat without that sour taste.
Andy
Hi Andy,
No sharp taste in the Curry ,I have tried fresh Chilies ,dried Chilies ,and Chili powder but to be honest couldn't really taste any difference ??? and when I watched the Chef at my favourite T/A make my Madras he used Chili powder and his Curries are delicious ;)
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emin-j,
i've found that it's best to work on the sort of "safe" side initially by adding "too" much water - the only downside is that the evap off takes longer. u can then start to reduce the extra water and eventually u get a feel for how thin a base should be to suit your own cooking style. i think some members have even said that they keep a jug of water by the base during cooking which is the same but u're then having to react as opposed to plain sailing.
i've added link to my observations on real BIR base for info. the colour was "green/yellow/brown" and very much along what u experienced http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329)
Link not working for me JerryM :'(
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emin-j
i got the real BIR base as part of the CR02 base development which got archived a while ago. have added the notes i took at the time below and a pic.
"I've now got the CR02 base as good as I wanted and having only a few ideas left felt I needed the real McCoy to take the development further. the BIR base taste certainly took me by surprise ? it's not what I expected.
Observations:
Colour - yellow brown
Texture - quite coarse thickish consistency (will almost soft peak) yet runny
Vegetable taste - onion, carrot and possibly potato
Spice taste - minimal spice certainly nothing sticking out, a hint of chilli and possibly ground coriander.
Oil - very little oil with a little yellow coloured oil on the surface and a few specks
Taste - Very smooth, mainly of onion, not salty, sweet or sour. A definite slight hint of something though which is difficult to put your finger on.
Smell - onion and a hint of this -something?
Best guess on what's not an ingredient:
fresh coriander
cumin
paprika
fresh, tin tomato or tomato puree
stock
garlic or ginger
green pepper
coconut
ajowan
ghee
Conclusions
It's a bit like a thin runny soup. It's not exactly the same as any base that I've tried from the site - they all seem too "deluxe" in comparison. The closest is the saffron but thinned.
The trouble is on a blind taste test against the bases I've tried from the site I'm sure I would not pick out the real McCoy. The difference between the base and the finished TA dish in terms of taste, colour and smell is stark and massive. You would swear you were being duped if you had not seen with your own eyes.
Given this I can't believe that the base is where we need to be looking given the site's bases are really "deluxe" and should therefore be producing fantastically curries on a like for like cooking basis.
I've got 10 off (ice cubes) goes at searching for the "something" but need to reformulate the CR02 to get to a closer starting point.
many thanks to Derek Dansak & Haldi for the inspiration."
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Well done JerryM are you into forensic science ;D I can see how you study this and how your minds working ;)Don't we have a Chemist on the forum who could analyse some base ;)
Seriously , I remember the words of the boss of the T/A he said " If the base is not right the Curry will not be " he went on to say they use the same base in most of their cooking.When I think how bland the base tasted this is probably why they can use it in so many products as it wont force any unwanted flavours into say a Korma.
I will be making another base tomorrow and remembering the ingredients he told me I need to find a recipe as close as possible.
Onions
Carrot
Green Pepper
Green Chilies ( small amount )
Fresh Coriander
Ginger ( small piece fresh )
no mention of Spices ( I should have asked :'( )
The colour was very close to your photo JerryM. ;)
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What? No garlic!
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emin-j,
for info this base was how the forensic science turned out http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0).
ps Must have garlic as Secret Santa says. i've also tried x2 on the garlic recently following a suggestion in another post and feel it's a good tack to follow.
the question on the spices would be very interesting. i've tried a selection of "simple spice", curry powder, mix powder/Spice Mix, garam masala in various combinations. i've settled on simple spicing only.
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JerryM ,
I ended up using a RAJVER recipe for my base which used almost the exact ingredients as the T/A ,but I did leave out the Tom Puree and the 1 Tbs of Chili Powder.I wanted to try to end up with the same colour base as the T/A ( yellowy/green )and a sorta bland taste . I am beginning to think it's easy to overdo the Spices ( and especially Garlic )if it goes into the base and the Curry :-\
I made the base this afternoon and to be honest when it all boiled down it didn't look to appetizing :o but when I blended it all together it looked just like what I remember the T/A looked like and the taste was very similar too ,just like a very very weak Curry Sauce with the flavour of Onions and Coriander ( very mild )and just a couple of seconds of the 2 Green Chilies that went in.I'll get back to you tomorrow night when I make my Curry with the results ::)
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What? No garlic!
Hi Secret Santa , no Garlic in the base only in the Curry ,perhaps this is what makes it very versatile in the T/A (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-confused-smileys-423.gif) (http://www.bonsaitreeguide.net/)
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Emin-J, your local takeaway that you refer to, seems friendly enough to ask them for a portion of their base.
That would be a good way to compare yours with a proper head to head (tasting the base only).
No tomatoes or garlic is quite a departure from the usual base recipes we've seen so far...
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Emin-J, your local takeaway that you refer to, seems friendly enough to ask them for a portion of their base.
That would be a good way to compare yours with a proper head to head (tasting the base only).
No tomatoes or garlic is quite a departure from the usual base recipes we've seen so far...
Yes joshallen2k I don't think they would mind :-\ Yes I was a little shocked at the ingredients of the base after what I had used previously ,but all the meals from the T/A are delicious ;)I, like most members on the Forum have spent many hours researching ( and cooking ) ::) to find that 'certain taste' that you find in many T/A and when I stood there and watched the Indian Chef make mine and the wife's Madras Curries with simple ingredients and a simply made base I reckoned this was the way ( for me )to go. I cant believe a T/A would make Base / Curries using such a list of ingredients and complicated cooking methods like some are on here :'( My T/A has shown me you can make a delicious Curry with the basics but it is all down to personale taste at the end of the day I suppose ::)
ps - we put Garlic and Tom in the Curry tho dont we ;)
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Oh and when you (hopefully) get a portion of base, test a bit of it with the Madras recipe you got, to see how close to BIR it is.
I always remember a comment that Haldi brought up some time ago: he said that a homemade curry using restaurant base was 100% BIR quality.
Looking forward to see how you get on.
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emin-j,
the rajver is a base i know well and love to bits. it's an interesting choice for the building blocks of your base though as it's what i'd call complex spiced. i'd be interested in what changes u've made particularly on the spicing.
i'd add that i know there is a threshold for a base to produce a top notch curry. once passed the threshold then it's impact on the final dishes is limited to a certain extent. i've been revisiting my fav bases recently now that i feel i'm sorted at cooking stage to make sure this was the case. so far i've made the rajver and saffron both producing top notch curry. surprisingly no better or worse than my adapted CR02 base (no tomato either).
i guess what i'm saying is it's all about the thinness and balance not necessarily down to specific ingredients although i do believe the proportions to be important ie carrot for example.
the no garlic in base is a real suprise and maybe down to personal preference or more probably cost. i tried taking ginger out of base for example but have now added it back in. garlic could be along the same lines (it is in normal cooking but i guess u don't add it twice though - meaning u know when it's not there but not necessarily when it is). in fact i've recently started to x2 the garlic.
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emin-j,
the rajver is a base i know well and love to bits. it's an interesting choice for the building blocks of your base though as it's what i'd call complex spiced. i'd be interested in what changes u've made particularly on the spicing.
i'd add that i know there is a threshold for a base to produce a top notch curry. once passed the threshold then it's impact on the final dishes is limited to a certain extent. i've been revisiting my fav bases recently now that i feel i'm sorted at cooking stage to make sure this was the case. so far i've made the rajver and saffron both producing top notch curry. surprisingly no better or worse than my adapted CR02 base (no tomato either).
i guess what i'm saying is it's all about the thinness and balance not necessarily down to specific ingredients although i do believe the proportions to be important ie carrot for example.
the no garlic in base is a real suprise and maybe down to personal preference or more probably cost. i tried taking ginger out of base for example but have now added it back in. garlic could be along the same lines (it is in normal cooking but i guess u don't add it twice though - meaning u know when it's not there but not necessarily when it is). in fact i've recently started to x2 the garlic.
JerryM , The Rajver base I used listed 2dsp of Turmeric,1dsp Chili powder ,1dsp ground Coriander ,1dsp Cummin ,1dsp Garam Masala but as I did not want any ' heat' from Chili powder in the base I left this out.
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emin-j,
very similar but slightly different to the rajver i use (as spec:1 tbsp turmeric, 2 tbsp currypowder, 1 tbsp chilli powder - see below, 1 tbsp coriander, 1 tbsp cumin, 1 tbsp garam). when i look at this spice i can't believe that it would work but it does (i've tried it in some bases and it doesn't work). in the base the spice is around 4% by volume (3.2L finished to which i thin to 4.0L with water) and for me at the top end of the desired range.
i feel it important to put a little chilli into the base. on the rajver it calls for fresh green chillies and powder - i limit it to 1 tsp worth of either.
link for info : http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2041.0.html
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2041.0.html)(i picked out the recipe from the text and can add it to the end of the post if u need).
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Hi JerryM ,I think the rajver recipe I found was from another site (http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/free-scared-smileys-398[1].gif) (http://www.smileyshut.com/Smileys/Smiley-Huts-Free-Scared-Smileys.html)
probably one of the early recipes. As you know I have been trying to find a base recipe the nearest to the T/Aways using the same ingredients and the rajver seemed close ,unfortunately I didn't get the list of Spices that goes with the T/A base :( so I used the Spices from the rajver base ( except the Chili Powder )I did put in 2 green chili's as per the recipe and you can just taste them in the finished base.I did taste the T/A base ( twice ;D )and could only taste ( just ) Onion and Coriander ,It was very thin and yellowy/green in colour.
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emin-j,
i like u're style.
keep us posted on how u go on.
i make the adapted CR02 base most of the time as although it was aimed at replicating BIR i ended up adding in some of my preferences from other recipes ie the coconut block. i'm currently trying to get my top 5 down to say 2 but it's proving difficult. i've recently revisited the rajver & saffron and have the ifindforu and Ivan Gough's left to re try.
so far although the rajver and saffron are very different the finished curry was impossible to decide on. in fact too difficult without doing a side by side which i've done previously. if i can't decide i'll just rotate for a while.
the reason for trying to cut them down is purely for ease - i like to be able to just chuck everythin in almost from memory.
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JerryM ,
Made my Madras tonight and I think I f*$%^d up >:( In my attempt to keep the base thin I think I over diluted it :-[Although the flavours were there and the colour was right it was obviously to watery.I could have kept it on the heat for longer I suppose to steam off some of the water but the Rice and Bhajee's was ready and the Mrs was starving ::)so I served it up.The Mrs doesn't like Curry to rich so she reckoned it was fine , but soon as I had the first taste I could tell straight away what the problem was >:( Ah well life's a learning curve . :-[
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emin-j,
it's happened to me - i just keep it on the heat longer.
to get it right i started putting the un thinned base (300ml) into a jug and then adding extra water for ea curry and adjusting the water until it cooked well (ie enough water to cook but not too much to evap off).
depends how much u're into maths but i also try to add a bit of simple calculation to it. i aim for a "thinness" of between 55 & 60% bulk veg in the finished base (based on the wt of the onion etc in the base c/w the finished volume).
for some reason i have your base in my spreadsheet and it seems to fit the bill fine (1650g bulk veg in 3.0L finished base giving 55%).
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Couldn't wait until next week so going to make another Madras tonight ;D Made a visit too a Asian Supermarket this morning wow ! paradise ! everything you could wamt ! all the Spices in all makes ,fresh greenery ,and bought a lovely frying pan just like the T/A ;D
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Made a visit too a Asian Supermarket this morning wow ! paradise ! everything you could wamt !
I love going there too. Such a little adventure. It's quite sad how much I enjoy it. Although that said, it probably doesn't compare with UB and his sniper's eye for nan bread accommodating garden furniture!