Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on May 06, 2009, 08:13 AM
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here's hoping on this.
i've adapted Georges post below (original here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3095.msg31286#msg31286 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3095.msg31286#msg31286))
The myths document and the related discussion thread helps get u started - probably the 1st 95%.
It a list of best guesses, hunches or whatever on possible myths.
It's not a done deal as it appears difficult to get passed the 95% mark ie close the last 5% gap.
Ingredients and approaches can not be definitely written off.
The question is how do we collectively close this gap.
One leg/option would be :
More emphasis on tried and tested recipes (i.e. on what works for sure) rather than lists of what doesn't work (e.g. ingredients in isolation) and long lists of work in progress, interim reports, minute by minute diaries, etc. e.g. we can't say whether it's best to brown the onions as a generalisation or whether almond powder should ever be used. It all depends on the specific recipe.
What does everyone think on the way fwd.
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anyone tried citric acid. they sell it in indian grocers. could be useful?
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missing 5 percent? umm i feel its a missing 30 percent. there is so much taste and smell in a real bir madras that i cant account for. i dont get any of those bir smells coming from my kitchen. lets hope we get some break throughs this year. i am busy trying out new spice combinations.
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missing 5 percent? umm i feel its a missing 30 percent. there is so much taste and smell in a real bir madras that i cant account for. i dont get any of those bir smells coming from my kitchen. lets hope we get some break throughs this year. i am busy trying out new spice combinations.
Hi Derek
If you really think you are always 30% :o off the BIR taste on a Madras, I guess you're probably either consistentally using wrong or inferior brand ingredients (or perhaps old spices), or you need to analyse/revise/practise your cooking methods ....
Which bases with which Madras recipes have you tried so far?
Regards
SnS ;)
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The question is how do we collectively close this gap. What does everyone think on the way fwd.
My suggestion is to focus on individual dishes, notably chicken madras, perhaps, rather than make blanket statements which might appear to rule individual ingredients or techniques in or out of the whole kitchen.
I still reckon we need a get-together to 'calibrate' our efforts, including a few curries from a good BIR as a sort of reference point for tasting. Then, at least we'd get a rough idea of whether we're all talking about anything like the same differences or shortcomings. We might even think that some people are on a different planet, and that their views could be disregarded!
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Hi Sns, i appriciate your help, however the basic BE style madras recipe with safron style base does not taste anywhhere near a true bir madras. i have tried hundreds of techniques and tweaks and varied bases, and nothing comes near my locals divine madras. i think its naive to think you can join this site make safron base, add some spice mix, chilly garlic paste (etc etc) and practice your technique over 6 months and it will = true bir madras. why should it, when its essentailly a method which we all know does not work. else we wouldnt be having this debate now. this forum is great at creating an acceptable mid week bir style curry. but when i buy the real thing and see and smell it being cooked in the bir kitchen, i realise its a lot more than 5 percent thats missing. its probably years of skills those head chefs are using to get that taste. a closely guarded secret it seems. anyway the exact percentage is not important is it sns? we all agree that something is missing.
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i realise its a lot more than 5 percent thats missing. its probably years of skills those head chefs are using to get that taste
I don't doubt there's still room for improvement but I simply don't buy the argument that it takes years of experience to cook a great BIR curry. If we ever get an accurate recipe for a first class dish, then I'm sure any of us could recreate it any time we want.
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I'm in total agreement with DD's post above. I never have, and I doubt I ever will replicate the BIR curries of old. I also agree with George's post, this talk about needing years of experience just doesn't hold water. If you watch the videos from maliks and East live takeaways, there's nothing there that I/we can't do, and indeed are already doing.
Technique and years of learning aren't the secret, it's all about the ingredients.
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I doubt I ever will replicate the BIR curries of old.
I'm confident you could, at the very first attempt if given an accurate recipe from that era, with ingredients and method stated to a similar level of accuracy as found in, say, a Delia Smith cook book. There's no doubt in my mind that most of us could 'deliver' if simply given a good recipe.
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My suggestion is to focus on individual dishes, notably chicken madras, perhaps, rather than make blanket statements which might appear to rule individual ingredients or techniques in or out of the whole kitchen.
i certainly don't want us all arguing on this one - there is a gap and likely quite a variation across members. i think it best just to focus on the above suggestion.
is anyone interested on giving it a go. i'm certainly in and would welcome George's thoughts on how we go about it.
i'd add that i made CK's madras last night and it was very very close. and my bland statement i feel is something we need to address as "very very close" is the best i can do in terms of description but at the same time pretty much meaningless to others. we need some kind of barometer perhaps.
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there seems to be 3 things missing (30 percent !!). 1) a tangy acidic burnt flavor 2) a turnipy onion soup flavor, 3) toffee flavor. i wonder if 1) is from garlic cooked high heat on proper gas cooker??. i only have electric cooker
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real assistance from real bir chefs is the most logical answer. bouncing ideas off them might reveal some new leads. there has been no real bir input since ashoka.
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Hi Sns, i appriciate your help, however the basic BE style madras recipe with safron style base does not taste anywhhere near a true bir madras. i have tried hundreds of techniques and tweaks and varied bases, and nothing comes near my locals divine madras.
Perhaps it is your 'local's divine Madras' that is unique? After all, what is a 'true BIR Madras'?
Having tried many Madras's from many restaurants and TA's over many a few years, I know I can produce a Madras equal to or better than many of them ::) (using the SnS June 2008 Base).
There are of course a few exceptional restaurants where their 'special' (and probably unique) methods/ingredients also produce a 'divine' tasting Madras which I cannot match, although it is questionable to whether this is really a 'Madras' in it's 'original' BIR form (whatever that may be?). :-\
Some Madras dishes (and others) I've tasted from BIR's in the 70's 80's 90's and 00's have been really crap, despite coming from well established BIR premises - so it would appear that there are many versions of this dish - as there are for all other curry dishes.
Even Indian recipe books will have large discrepancies in the ingredients/methods used to make a particular dish and subsequently the resultant tastes will differ - despite being classed as the same!
This may be due to regional differences or simply the chef's/author's preference, I don't know ... but they are different.
If all recipes/methods were the same, we would only need to buy one Indian cookbook and use just one Indian restaurant!
The same goes for BIR - one chef's version of a curry will be different to another. There is no 'Generic' recipe (unlike MacDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc ..)
Nowadays, who is really qualified to say what is a pucker Madras or what is not? We can only aim to reproduce what is essentially meeting with our own particular taste preferences.
The fact that a Madras cannot be produced with the same taste/smell/colour/texture to your local Madras (or anyone else's local), does not mean that the recipes/methods used are wrong - just different.
Regards
SnS ;D
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very true sns. i have tried 5 or more traditional madras recipies from varied trad indian cookery books. all are nice in there own way. some have cocunut, some dont. some have tamerind, or star anise some dont. i will make your base as it looks good. its so similar to a base i have developed myself that i already know its good and bad points. i only buy ta's from the best bir, else i feel ripped off. so i am probably a bit too critical of my own madras. i am sure mine is better than most standard bir madras. especially when i have fresh base, and fresh chicken stock etc + reclaimed oil.
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............ fresh chicken stock etc + reclaimed oil.
Oh no - not another reclaimed oil merchant :o ;D ::) ... but that's another topic ..
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lol, actually i am too lazy to be a re claimed oil mercahnt ! i dont think its that important, but can be a quick boost to flavor if you have some available. my local bir ta thinks its not useful at all.
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while i am here :) anyone know how to get that smokey burnt flavor.
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Only joking ... from discussing this with some older BIR chefs, back in the 70's (good old days), I gather they used to reclaim the oil from the base gravy.
However, the stock was made up using cheap old broilers (ex-egglaying hens) with the addition of extra oils (fat). :P
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while i am here :) anyone know how to get that smokey burnt flavor.
Chipotle paste ;)
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good reading for sure.
i'd been giving the subject some thought today (waiting for paint to dry - really).
i think i've answered my own need - technique (CA is right on another one for me).
i feel i've got all the pieces of the jigsaw - the trouble is they don't always fit exactly as they should. why?.
i made CK's madras last night it turned out the best curry i've made to date. i then made my own version of madras but it turned out below my norm and appeared worse than CK's. this just could not be true so i made another portion of CK's - yep worse than mine but importantly very different to the 1st one i'd made and now where near as good.
i always set out to cook in exactly the same manner. i measure all the powders in advance and try to get all the pastes the same by sight. i now know my stove is at the same temp each time. so why the hit and miss - it's got to be technique.
i don't feel anyone can help as i can't pinpoint myself where or what is changing - it's just something i will have to practise at. what i do know is when my garage is smoking after cooking the curry will hit the mark.
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forgot to add.
i do agree with George that we could in general improve recipes and hence the interest. a collective approach would be more likely to yield better results than individually.
i don't know whether that improvement is in the ingredients or spice or quite likely both
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a collective approach would be more likely to yield better results than individually.
I agree. A collective approach in many fields often produces greater results than the sum of the individual parts.
I remember that Cory set up a sort of R&D thread on testing various attempts at Madras or something but it seemed to attract very little interest, which seemed a shame. I must confess - I never tried it.
Perhaps we need to decide on which is the closest/best Madras so far (SnS recipe maybe) and move off from there, in trying to make it even better. I still reckon that a get-together (taste calibration session) would be fun and useful but nobody seems interested in that, either.
I've asked a few friends if they think standards have gone down since the early 80s and they don't seem to think so. I agree. Not every BIR produced great-tasting food then, and they still don't. Then, as now, you had to know where to go. Another suggestion of mine is to put more effort into building up the list of the very best BIRs, in the review section of this forum.
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ok george i am sold on the idea. can someone provide the link to the ck madras. shall i use the sns base also.
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Not every BIR produced great-tasting food then, and they still don't. Then, as now, you had to know where to go.
The trouble is that even the worst BIRs have their own loyal following who think that their curries are perfect - finding a general consensus would be hard I would imagine, but I do like your get together tasting sessions...sadly I doubt anything will come of them if history is anything to go by.
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hi domi i too would love the thought of a tasting session, but the problem is that if you made it central uk then most peeps would have to travel 200 miles or more. if you made it regional ie kent/sussex/surrey/london go to one location and then post observations and midlands etc scotland, wales and so on. therefore cutting down the mileage/costs/inconvenience etc. i know CK and UB and chinois are realatively close to me down here in the weald of kent, so maybe that would be possible. and if peeps are able to get to the chosen location for each region because they can travel the long distance then that would be good too! so lets get it moving!
lets all get our heads together and start tasting ;D
regards
gary
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My best curry times were early 80's. Sure there were bad restaurants, but even these produced the 'taste' and the 'smell'. They were not unique. I ate in London, Brum, Scotland, etc. All had that taste and smell. But now, It's bloody gone, kaput, disparu!
Half the problem here is that those members that can 100% reproduce their local's madras, or even better it, have only been eating curries for less than 10 years.
Anyone can make the crap that is served in today's BIRs, if my experiences are anything to go by.
Now, Domi & George, why would I want to get together to swap notes with ppl who haven't got a bloody clue what real BIR curries taste like and that, judging by the satisfaction factor with the recipes on this forum, is 99% of the people here!
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I remember that Cory set up a sort of R&D thread on testing various attempts at Madras or something but it seemed to attract very little interest, which seemed a shame.
I feel it did attract interest - the trouble being reluctance to go outside the box and a tendency for pinickerty posting. It turned out not worth the hassle which this could easily do.
i feel this attempt should be limited to say 5, 10 or so members who wish to take part and post in a controlled post. it being only open to posting for those members, everyone else having view only. a separate post could be created for all members to add their views.
i also like the idea of the get together and regional sounds ideal. i'm not sure we could carryoff given as Domi points out the success of previous attempts. i'm thinking SnS's BIR trip which i feel would have taken out much of the agony for what was little money.
George's ideas on getting going sound fine. we just need a little thought on the process and how we evaluate.
for me something along these lines: stick to one agreed base, have a control, keep it simple ie CK's madras, score simply on yes /no closer to BIR as each derivative is cooked by the group working on say a 1 mth cycle.
it's looks as if we're going to have to cajole Secret Santa along.
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My best curry times were early 80's. Sure there were bad restaurants, but even these produced the 'taste' and the 'smell'. They were not unique. I ate in London, Brum, Scotland, etc. All had that taste and smell. But now, It's bloody gone, kaput, disparu!
Sounds like you need a time travel machine not a curry cookery forum huh? live and hope i suppose.
one persons perfect madras is another's awful and everything in between doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying tho thats the best bit! is for me any how, Curry on :)
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Sounds like you need a time travel machine not a curry cookery forum huh?
All those interested in forming a time travel group meet here last Thursday...
;D ;D ;D
CoR