Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Spottymaldoon on March 07, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Here is a theory about this "BIR" flavour, which seems so elusive in the hands of home-bound chefs, genuine Indian mothers and grandmothers and in recipes concocted by people such as Madhur Jaffrey, Kriss Dillon, J. Sainsbury or Fred Tesco!
Do the restaurants use some forbidden and deeply secret ingredient? Just as we watch a conjurer intently as he performs his trick, never able to see what he does that makes the difference; so we watch a BIR chef and attempt to duplicate his motions without the longed-for success. My previous best ever curry, made after reading this forum, missed the mark I was aiming for.
BIR curries are swimming in oil. The gravy medium IS oil. The taste is imparted to our mouth via oil (and is so intense!). OK, this oil may be concealed (disguised) in the thick base which is composed of mostly reduced onion and tomato, but oil is the medium in which the cooking took place and water was excluded (or at least highly controlled) so far as was possible.
Almost always, we use water for our cookery. The water extracts the essences from the ingredients (inefficiently), brings them to (approximately) 100 degrees C and does the heat exchange that is needed to cook the meat and the veggies at that temperature. Sure, we may start out frying but ultimately the meat and the veggies get simmer-cooked in water at the stated hundred degrees and with predominantly water interfacing the meat & veggies.
My opinion is that the BIR difference is tied to oil cooking vs. water cooking.
Suppose we substituted oil for the whole process? I tried as follows:
Fried onions till golden brown, fried garlic/ginger pur?ed in oil, fried those spices which can stand frying without losing their aroma, fried tomato paste (NOT crushed tomatoes because they will contain too much water) and, keeping the whole awash with oil at a temperature above 100 degrees (but never so hot as to carbonize or burn badly on the bottom), finally I slow fried the meat and whole veggies at close to 100 deg., adding the more vulnerable spices right near the end. Doing it this way I accomplished two vital things (1) cooked at a temperature above 100 degrees C which got a 'smoky taste' into the oil from the onions (2) then efficiently extracted the essential oils of the spices with an oil medium and transferred it to the meat and veggies via oil interface - and, finally, the flavours dissolved in the oil (which were able to go into the meat far more easily because they were much more concentrated in the oil than they would have been in water) and then the same flavours hit the mouth via the oil medium with such a huge TASTE compared to our water-cooked curries!
I'm not totally satisfied but I felt this was a quantum leap (for me anyway). I should have liked more smoky taste and I would have liked more aromatic spice bouquet, like cardamom especially, but the taste was the closest I have ever managed (in 1000+ attempts) and it was only a first go.
After cooking this way, you can by all means skim off oil for re-use, just as the restaurants do - and the recycled oil of course makes the next curry even tastier. Because there is a lot of reduced onion and tomato paste in the sauce, the extra oil is less easy to see, more easy to hide! But of course it is there and it's none too healthy either ? I suggest that is why oil cooking is kept as a secretive technique and those who enquire come away with a recipe guaranteed to do water-cooking. That also is why you shouldn't eat too much of this stuff and why Mdm. Jaffrey is so healthy.
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Spotty,
really like your style. the theory behind it all has got to be one of our best opportunities for mastering the art.
we need to include a further leg to the picture on the observation, "BIR curries are swimming in oil". yes many are but the best restaurant curries i've tasted aren't. for sure the oil is the medium but "adding more" certainly isn't the whole picture.
i remain very interested in the theory as i feel it might just improve technique and ultimately consistency and flavour. please outline a bit more why u think the smokiness came from the onions. i don't know where the smokiness comes from hence the interest. nothing that i've experienced suggests that it comes from the onions either in the frying during dish cooking or pre frying as the initial stage of making a base.
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Jerry said:
the theory behind it all has got to be one of our best opportunities for mastering the art.
we need to include a further leg to the picture on the observation, "BIR curries are swimming in oil". yes many are but the best restaurant curries i've tasted aren't. for sure the oil is the medium but "adding more" certainly isn't the whole picture.
i remain very interested in the theory as i feel it might just improve technique and ultimately consistency and flavour. please outline a bit more why u think the smokiness came from the onions. i don't know where the smokiness comes from hence the interest. nothing that i've experienced suggests that it comes from the onions either in the frying during dish cooking or pre frying as the initial stage of making a base.
Jerry:
Thanks for entertaining my theory.
Let me expand a little and also try to answer some of the points you raise.
But could I first ask, has anybody here tried to consciously cook a curry with oil predominating?
I am adding more oil for the valid scientific reasons I am re-stating below, and I am saying that you can't get BIR taste unless you contrive some way to do your cooking in oil. Water cooking produces lovely non-BIR curries but we complain:
(1) no BIG taste!!!
(2) no smoky taste
(3) the spices still taste and smell raw (eg. garam masalla-ish)
(4) the taste hasn't got into the meat - it's like a Sainsbury's TV curry!
The fundamental point I am making is that essences, bouquets and flavours (including the smoky one) have to be transferred from the raw ingredients, deep into the meats, whole veggies and the sauce and I am saying that it is the oil that is doing the bulk of this transfer (chemically, because the partition coefficient of these taste components is much greater in oil than in water). Furthermore, on this site we have talked a lot about the need for high temperatures at certain stages of the cooking - some have used burners that look as if they came off a fighter-jet! If you exclude water, which limits your upper temp. to about 100 degrees, then you can get high temperatures without a huge burner.
I thought initially that if you cook throughout in oil then you'll end up with crispy deep-fried meat, but you don't - it remains soft and tender. Also, I didn't mention that I added a can of thick coconut milk at the end of my curry - that is mostly water and it becomes emulsified with the oil and further conceals the presence of the oil. I have seen that done in BIRs too (including my absolute best ever which was Muthus in Singapore) but I suggest there is always more oil in there than we like to believe!
On smoky taste, and following my theory still, no, it's true, I can't prove it comes from the onions but as you cook with the oil technique, there is a continual light carbonizing on the bottom of the pan, after the meat goes in especially, and you need to keep scraping this or you'll have a burned bottom. I suggest that this light carbonizing is the source of smoky taste.
What I can assert is that I have a curry here, made by following the above, which is by far the closest I have ever come to BIR - smoky taste as well, I sniffed it just now! AND, the taste is deep in the meat.
Spotty
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I think a lot of people agree, the oil does it
One chef I spoke to, said some curry houses, only use oil spices and onions in their base.
I've not seen that so far, but the oil is definitely the carrier of flavour
I buy a veg curry sometimes
The veg used is frozen, but the curries are very tasty because they cook with curry gravy oil.
And this oil has nearly all the taste
I'm glad you've had some sucess
Some people feel the Ashoka recipes give a 100% result
They rely on the oily fried onion paste
Have you tried them?
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Spotty,
thanks for reply - much appreciated.
i too am convinced the oil is key. i don't believe u need to totally exclude water - in fact i believe it helps.
i'm totally sold on the light carbonising. this is what i first noticed on using the chef spoon (the handle's more flatter than my home spoons so the yellow "oil/carbonising" is more (very) visible). if u taste it u know it's got something about it.
it's good that u've been able to start to get the smokiness without high heat burner. i've not been able to do it on my 2.9kw hob.
i still don't know what it is that produces the smokiness. i've managed to get it with tom puree and spice alone ie without onion so it may be down more to the process than ingredient.
the onion paste for me is a piece of the jigsaw only.
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Spotty, old chap, many thanks. I?ve always known (sort of) that oil is the key ? or perhaps one key amongst others.
A breakthrough comes, sometimes, not in an Archimedes moment of inspiration but in a confirmation of an idea that comes from a source that you believe has credibility. Your scientific rationale for the cooking medium of oil has that credibility (although I did have to look up ?partition coefficient?).
I also need your thoughts ? and anyone else?s ? about the base gravy in Kris Dillon?s new book which substitutes olive oil for plain vegetable oil (at a ratio of 50%). The conventional wisdom has always been that olive oil is anathema because of its strong flavour but she recommends it because it eliminates the pervasively strong cooking smells.
Full disclosure: I haven?t cooked it yet so I can?t comment. Any thoughts?
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I asked to buy oil, or anything they could offer, to get that taste, and they said there is nothing to sell to help with that. they said its all about preperation, technique, and a life time of erradicating certain flavors in a curry and improving the good flavors bit by bit over many years. i believe this. i have seen their oil, and it is just veg oil. i have purchased there base, and it is a very plain greenish veg stock with virtually no spice. Its a lot plainer and less spiced than safron base. cooking with their base made no improvement to my curry. it certainly had no trace of any illusive taste. although we all think we are spice gods, its bull :-X, WE ARE NOT. we are merely just at the starting gate of this quest. i am sure some bir do use flavored oil more than others. but my local bir gets the taste we are all after, and they just use veg oil.
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I am with you there DD, I have tried hundreds of recipes and techniques, with spiced oil or without and while there are subtle differences nothing simply adds the taste. I know some restaurants don't reuse oil some do so to me that can't be the key, it is all skill and practice I am sure, given how many currys a chef would make a night they would likely master the art a lot quicker than us part timers. Saying that I think mine are restaurant quality, do they have the taste, I can't be 100% sure as I am to much of a critic but I know I would prefer one of my own to over half the BIR's in my area and thats good enough for me.
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Hi CK, its reassuring to hear someone else shares this belief. I do use spiced oil, but after reading your comments, i think i will focus more attention on the balance of spices and ingredients and technique in the future. For me, this is the way forward. Although i do also think spiced oil is a solid start for a tasty curry. But as you say, not the missing taste. We are all aiming very high. Its likely that good bir chefs are natural cooks, coming from families of chefs, that pass down secrets over many generations. so we should not be too hard on our selves ! The head bir chef at my local is 18 years old. he must have learnt to cook great bir cuisine from an elder, surely? :)
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i think i will focus more attention on the balance of spices and ingredients and technique in the future. For me, this is the way forward.
me too. i can use same ingredients and "same" technique and get completely different results. i thought other people who have said this could not be right but i now know they are - another 10 yrs eh!
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There is no turning back now Jerry ! ;D
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agreed ;D
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There is no turning back now
just taking this in a bit more it amazes me how far we must have all travelled since joining the site. the collective knowledge and help makes such a difference.
i bought the KD book when it 1st came out (i guess 1990 ish). it's only in the last year since joining that i've really started to travel in style. simply brill!
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I asked to buy oil, or anything they could offer, to get that taste, and they said there is nothing to sell to help with that. they said its all about preperation, technique, and a life time of erradicating certain flavors in a curry and improving the good flavors bit by bit over many years. i believe this. i have seen their oil, and it is just veg oil. i have purchased there base, and it is a very plain greenish veg stock with virtually no spice.
Derek,
So you have plain (unseasoned?) vegetable oil. The base is like a "very plain...vegetable stock". And the "secret" is supposedly in the "preparation, technique and a lifetime of......"??
Well, as far as I can see, cooking curries (i.e. "the technique") is a question of:
- sequence (i.e. of adding the ingredients)
- time (how long you cook things for)
- temperature (what temperature you cook them at)
And, for the life of me, I cannot see how any of this (from observing practices in restaurants and restaurant videos, etc) creates the "taste" or the "smell" of a good BIR curry!!!
Furthermore, I have seen NOTHING that requires umpteen years of training in order to produce it!! ::)
So what do you (and CK) think are the the important issues regarding the so called "techiques"??? Nobody has, yet, seemed able to define it!??
From what I can tell, "technique" generally involves frying some garlic, ginger, tomato paste, some basic spices, curry base and pre-cooked meat, in some defined sequence (for some time and at some temperature) and, "hey presto!", I have the "taste" and "smell"!
I would be REALLY interested in hearing more about about these so-called "techniques"
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i'm getting inconsistency at the moment. gut feeling being that it must be down to technique.
so i too feel discussion on sequence, time and temperature would help us all (having much to learn and improve on).
this is what i do and why (hoping it will draw out further thoughts and clarification on what's best practise):
1) sequence "steps/stages" :
a) oil, garlic/ginger, onion, pepper
b) spices, tom puree in water, some base
c) base, pre cooked meat, coriander
there seems to be 3 discrete stages. the 1st being general frying to take the rawness out. the 2nd being what i call emulsification (for me the crucial stage) where the spices are cooked. the 3rd being fast simmer to stop the emulsification abruptly, heat any additional ingredients and evap off excess water to intensify the taste of the collective ingredients.
2) time
a) very short time (a matter of secs) when the rawness smell has gone
b) medium time (a minute or so) - the end point is the crux and difficult to detect for me
c) long time (a few minutes) - when a good consistency is reached
the 1st and 3rd i feel are easy to detect as the technique's are used in general cooking and nothing new to most people. the 2nd is much more difficult to detect - too long and the spices burn. the "toffee" smell or when a smell from the spices is 1st detected was what i initially relied on. now i try to look for "craters" ie when escaping steam leaves a circular hole behind. trouble is i'm not sure if theses craters have to be across the full surface of the pan or not (or even if they are the best method of detecting the end point ie when the bulk of the base goes in).
3) temp
a) hot (i guess above 100C)
b) medium (around 100C)
c) medium
for me i keep the burner at the same setting throughout. i think it can be turned down for the 3rd stage ie the simmer when the base is being evaporated off (to reduce spittings of oil).
i feel there is probably a 4th variable ie the spoon. so:
4) spoon
a) frequent movement
b) no movement
c) now and again
i think i must change 1 or a few of these parts without realising. yet i always aim to follow the same "technique" for every dish i make - the ingredients being the only variable.
by improving our understanding of these contributors at least we would have a better chance of improving our dishes. i'm not convinced it's the be all as i'm sure we also have further to learn on spices.
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Hi Jerry,
Nearly three years ago, I asked which "techniques" are used to create the BIR taste? http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.msg11277#msg11277
Unfortunately, the thread had very few replies, which I find very strange, considering the number of members who seem to stress the importance of "techniques" over the importance of the curry base, spiced oil, or other explanations.
I'm pleased to see that you're at least having a go at defining what "techniques" actually means! :P
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I agree with those 3 stages. and i belive major factors are; not too much of any one spice; use lots of oil; A curry should fry, not boil...if you can hear bubling...your boiling, if you can hear sizzling, your frying! Dont fry the onins until they brown, fry them till they're transparent. I dont precook meats other than lamb, i generaly add them after the spices have been added and cooked, just before adding the base. Has any one done a youtube vid on curry making? I fancy having a go sometime!
Steve
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I see curries cooked every month at a takeaway, and have done for about two years now.
Sometimes I'm there for a couple of hours.
Honestly, there are no clever techniques.
Anybody could do it, with a takeaway's circumstances
The "skill" is in the base and the reclaimed oil.
I've had decent curries where only frozen food has been added
So ,for flavour, precooking isn't that important either
With the base there are only two rules that must be kept
Firstly never let the base burn, so stir occasionally right to the bottom of the pan.
Secondly, blend the base really well. This ensures that when it is reheated nothing "catches" this time either.
The making of the curries are really simple and nothing burns because they are cooked in this reclaimed oil
You can cook tomato puree or garlic ginger, for five minutes and it only slightly darkens.
Nothing burns.
There is tremendous room for various cooking times to get an identical result.
Quite often the chef will start a curry then go and sit down for a chat with his colleagues.
There is no split second cooking timing
I don't know if all takeaways do this, but certainly I know three that do.
And all these places produce curries that are fantastic
I accept that people have seen curry cooking with fresh oil, but believe that the hidden magic is in their base.
That will have been made with old oil.
Because that's where the "taste" lies
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Haldi,
i've posted in CA's original thread being more relevant. i hope u will add your thoughts their as they are clearly going to help us focus in on what's important.
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I see curries cooked every month at a takeaway, and have done for about two years now.
Sometimes I'm there for a couple of hours.
Honestly, there are no clever techniques.
Anybody could do it, with a takeaway's circumstances
The "skill" is in the base and the reclaimed oil.
I've had decent curries where only frozen food has been added
So ,for flavour, precooking isn't that important either
With the base there are only two rules that must be kept
Firstly never let the base burn, so stir occasionally right to the bottom of the pan.
Secondly, blend the base really well. This ensures that when it is reheated nothing "catches" this time either.
The making of the curries are really simple and nothing burns because they are cooked in this reclaimed oil
You can cook tomato puree or garlic ginger, for five minutes and it only slightly darkens.
Nothing burns.
There is tremendous room for various cooking times to get an identical result.
Quite often the chef will start a curry then go and sit down for a chat with his colleagues.
There is no split second cooking timing
I don't know if all takeaways do this, but certainly I know three that do.
And all these places produce curries that are fantastic
I accept that people have seen curry cooking with fresh oil, but believe that the hidden magic is in their base.
That will have been made with old oil.
Because that's where the "taste" lies
Hi haldi,
I too am aware of the use of old oil in the gravy, I saw this a few days ago on the Maliks webcam, my only question would be :: 1/ is it oil that the poppadoms were cooked in? or 2/ is it oil from the fryers that the bhajis etc were fried in ?
Bob
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Hi haldi,
I too am aware of the use of old oil in the gravy, I saw this a few days ago on the Maliks webcam, my only question would be :: 1/ is it oil that the poppadoms were cooked in? or 2/ is it oil from the fryers that the bhajis etc were fried in ?
Bob
It's definitely oil from chips and bhajees
Mainly chips
Loads of chips
I haven't seen poppadoms cooked in it, but maybe that too
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Hi CA, lets face it, there must be more to this business than the basic steps /techniques we are all performing, otherwise we would all be doing perfect bir every night. personally i feel we have yet to master new preperation methods to achieve new flavors. and a few new techniques that might be part of those preperations. i believe our conceptual schemas of cooking true bir are not very developed. thats why we miss the true bir taste. i would stress the preparation side of things more than technique. we have only really seen the tip of the iceberg. we know very little about how bir chefs prepare stuff during the afternoons. between all of us, we must be able to crack this by trial and error?
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DD,
sounds as if you've got some fixed ideas on the above which is certainly out of the box thinking - any chance of an example to help understand exactly what u're getting at.
at the mo my biggest problem is consistency. i currently put this down to technique and intend revisiting UB's malik video (following Achmal's prompt) to help put this in stone in CA's technique post.
i'm a sort of a disbeliever (very willing) of the chip oil. i saw it go in on one of UB's malik video and will report where when i come across it. i hope it's a red hearing.
UB's malik video link : http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0)
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Hi CA, lets face it, there must be more to this business than the basic steps /techniques we are all performing, otherwise we would all be doing perfect bir every night
Hi DD,
Yes, I agree with that DD. I suppose it's a question of what that leads us to conclude? I conclude that the "missing taste" is in the curry base and oil. Others may conclude that it's in the "preparation and technique". It may be (and probably is) both of course.
However, I've never been too comfortable with peoples' assertions that it's in the "technique" because they seldom define what "technique" actually means. And, from watching restaurants and videos, it is not apparent that there are any particular magical "techniques" going on in the cooking of the final dishes? Just some frying and stirring!
I feel we have yet to master new preperation methods to achieve new flavors. and a few new techniques that might be part of those preperations....i would stress the preparation side of things more than technique
Can you give some examples on what you mean by "preparations" DD? Do you mean things like pre-prepared "onion paste", "garlic/ginger paste", "red masala paste" and "precooked meats"?
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Hi, Its so hard to say what preparations are missing as i just dont know. It could be some random thing like letting a combination of spices mello, or slightly decompose in oil for a few days/weeks then cook with this oil. I am keeping an open mind. and will try some random ideas (much like haldi has). i believe random experiments with the spices + oil are darn useful. we should have a thread just to record odd experiments. and if these experiments are being endorsed on a permanent basis by the cr0 chef. It has to be the way forward to a better understanding of achieving a complex taste. our current recipies are possibly too simple. the taste needs developing, and intensifying. from cooking with my locals base i can honestly rule out the base as being any importance at all. although others may disagree! and i am sure they will ;D. they may have been hiding some truth about their oil though. but it looked like veg oil.
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i believe random experiments with the spices + oil are darn useful.
they may have been hiding some truth about their oil though. but it looked like veg oil.
thanks Derek for the further understanding. i too feel there is margin to be gained here. it's probably a no3 for me behind technique & spicing.
i would extend "spices" to include whole and am still particularly interested in the red & yellow variety of curry base oils.
i also felt from the malik video that whilst there is a lot of ingredient essentially going in off camera (eg from under the oven) there is also significant difference in when spices are added across ythe range of dishes. it's quite a complicated picture and one we can only pick off at a bit at a time - hence the need to experiment as u say.
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i would extend "spices" to include whole and am still particularly interested in the red & yellow variety of curry base oils
Hi Jerry,
A couple of questions if I may?
1) Do you think the use of whole spices is prevalent in BIR cooking?
2) What do you mean by "yellow....oil" please? I have only seen red?
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CA,
1) i don't think whole spices are prevalent in BIR cooking ie dish cooking. i do feel they have a part in the base. i've made several bases with and without whole spices (using cardamom, anise, bay and lately cinnamon). i find the base better with the whole spice than without.
2) the curry gravy oil is something i keep wrestling with. the "yellow" oil is as in the malik video. it's also used by my local TA. all the bases on this site use red oil. the difference for me is no paprika and no or very little tomato in the yellow yielding base. the trouble is i feel i've had my best results (finished dish) using the red oil eg the saffron base.
i've been using a yellow base for some months now - so i have at least 1 control to try out my attempts at cooking dishes (as opposed to plain curry sauce which for me is sorted). i was going to switch back to red next but given the "technique" work i feel i need to stick with the yellow for just 1 more go (to try maliks cooking method).
on "extend" spices to include whole i was getting at that i haven't really tried out any variation as using the 3 off spices worked pretty good for me from the off. it's only recent that i introduced cinnamon but this isn't coming through in the base yet (i'm only talking subtle - that depth of spice without 1 overpowering the rest).