Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: raygraham on June 01, 2005, 11:10 PM
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Hi all,
First to introduce myself as a newbie to the site.
My name is Ray and I live in Keighley near Bradford which is arguably one of the great Curry Capitals of the U.K.
I am a Paramedic by profession and a curryholic in my spare time having been addicted some thirty five years ago. This site gives me a chance to while away the quiet times on nights ( not that I get many! ), to dream about the next steaming bowl of madras and appreciate the enthusiasm of fellow curry lovers around the world.
Bradford has hundreds of restaurants and take-outs and a good old madras or vindaloo with chapatis and rice will still only set you back ?4.50p at some of the smaller take-aways.
The well known Karachi restaurant still serves up great, cheap curry to many a skint student and has been doing it for forty years or more and is packed all the time.
There is a huge choice of restaurants here and some I could recommend as more than fantastic and sadly some that are a guaranteed ticket to the bog next day!
Like many I have been after the "secret" for years and have come close many a time but not quite!
While lurking around the site I have found it interesting and lively and have a great respect for the extreme and sincere dedication you all have and will share my experience where I can.
Having had an input on the in2curry website in the past I started trying the curries from the e-book "Secrets of the Indian Restaurant Curry" which is about ?20 online and found this to be very good indeed. Not spot on but good enough to rate as a close contender to the "real taste". I am writing today to ask other peoples opinions of this book if anyone else has cooked from it. If not I can post a couple of recipes if anyone fancies giving it a go.
I find Kriss Dhillon to be great for the base sauce but a bit dissapointing after adding the rest of the ingredients suggested.
Trying to cook Pat Chapman recipes takes me so far from the restaurant taste I have since given him up as a bad job.
I have taken hints from Pete on this site to good effect and am now closer than I have ever been in 30 years to the restaurant taste.
Darths efforts are commendable as he seems to live by curry alone............he must be gradually embalming himself from the inside out! Good on you Master Darth!
I believe we may not be able to completely recreate this elusive taste at home as I think the huge volumes the restaurants make takes away the margins of error we must have using much smaller measures. On the Curryhouse website it says exactly this and I think a small household pan on the stove is too small to maintain consistency in taste and thats why we rarely get the same thing twice. As much as I try I rarely get the same taste twice.
One of my locals cooks the base sauce in a huge pan that must hold 10 gallons so an odd few onions here and bulbs of garlic there isnt going to make a difference at all, consistent every time!
I don't believe it? is such a secret or there is a conspiracy to keep the secret from us but I am open to criticism on this topic. I think the technique is there for us all and can see that users on this site will find the answer one day. It is just a matter of perseverance and enthusiasm and this site has all that and more.
Another observation of mine is that curries from restaurants in the south are more rich and pungeant than those from this area. Is it me or are there regional differences. I remember when I lived down south I could rarely finish a whole curry as it was so rich and full of Butter Ghee.
As a final word my favourite curry is a Chicken Jalfrezi but I can get at least 10 different tasting versions of the same dish at my local take aways, some very dry and some with a load of sauce.
Take this contribution as a letter of encouragement to all of you out there. Keep up the efforts, don't give in and I am sure the "code will be cracked"!!
Hope I haven't bored everyone to death.
Keep up the fantastic work
Good Luck
Ray
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Welcome raygraham,
What a great post, i certainly agree the curry up north can be some of the best, has anyone ever been to curry mile in Manchester, that is like a little Las Vegas but all curry houses....some of the best smells and dishes i have had.
Keep contributing and I am sure we will all get there in our own little ways in the end.
Stew 8)
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I believe we may not be able to completely recreate this elusive taste at home as I think the huge volumes the restaurants make takes away the margins of error we must have using much smaller measures. On the Curryhouse website it says exactly this and I think a small household pan on the stove is too small to maintain consistency in taste and thats why we rarely get the same thing twice. As much as I try I rarely get the same taste twice.
One of my locals cooks the base sauce in a huge pan that must hold 10 gallons so an odd few onions here and bulbs of garlic there isnt going to make a difference at all, consistent every time!
Thiere seem to be two camps on this site: Those who believe the base sauce is the thinng we are not getting right, and those who think that we've got he base sauce right, but that the dish cooking isn't right.
I am very much in the latter camp. I believe both Khris Dhillons' base sauce, and Pete's base sauce are perfectly suitable for BIR dish creation. I think those who serach for the elusive base sauce are wasting there time: I think we have that part of the riddle solved.
Being a believer in this theory also means the logically, I do not believe that the 'volume' argument has any sway. The only thing BIRs cook in huge volumes is base sauce: individual dishes are cooked individually, in the same quantities we cook them at home. I think it is a fallacy to believe that this is a problem holding us back.
The key lies in every single aspect of cooking the dish. Mark J's dish recipies can certianly give perfect BIR dishes, as a few of us have experiences this. Being able to do them consistently is a different matter. Everything makes a difference to the final taste: exact quantities used; exact temperature of the oil, how long you cook each stage for, inbetween adding ingreadients etc. Indian BIR chefs cook 50 meals a night; we cook one a night maximum, and thats if we eat nothing but curry! The practise, and the 'feel' for cooking the dishes is something we will learn slowly.
Its like any form of cooking really: noivce cooks can follow a recipie, but it will take them a long time before the intuitively know what each action they take is dfoing to the dish, exactly how hot to cook things, etc etc. This is the stage we are at really. A recipie is only a rought guideline to cooking a dish: accurate re-creation requires experience, intuition and skill, that only comes with time.
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Hi Ray,
In2curry seems to have died a death recently with hardly any activity at all now, east ends fault really for not looking after it properly!
Any how the "Secrets of the Indian Restaurant Curry" I have tried a few of the recipes from noticably the dupiaza which I thought was ok but as you say they are not perfect replicas. There have been quite a few tried and tested reicpes posted on here now which I reckon are better than most of the ebooks and the like that seem to be consistantly on ebay.
Cheers
cK
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thomashenry
For what it's worth, I must say I agree with most of your views, notably:
- I think we've got the base sauce right, but that the dish cooking isn't right.
- I think we have the base sauce part of the riddle solved.
- I do not believe that the 'volume' argument has any sway.
Somebody recently mentioned the possibility that the tandoor produces the restaurant smell. It certainly has the 'power' to produce the high volume of aroma, but do they really add ingredients which would produce the said smell? Most tandoors must be gas powered. I doubt if naan bread, chicken tandoori, etc would produce the smell. I still reckon it's from final dish cooking. Not from chicken stock (no way) nor carrots or any other western ingredient. When was the last time home made English chicken soup smelt like that?!
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Welcome my young apprentice !!! 8)
Yes the secret to eternal youth is through the copious ingestion of Curry . ;)
formaldehyde should spel thus ......l Phallmaldehyde !!! (Ray.G. that ones for you !!) ;D ;D ;D
I sincerely believe that the base is Not as important as thought because in it nature of being versatile enough to make most if not all the Take-away Curries it has to be fairly non-descript in taste/smell etc.. otherwise if it was to dominant in flavor, it would only be able to be used for specific Curries .This would not be economical & be too time consuming for a BIR would it not ?
I have a suggestion for all.
We should have a recipe thread were we can post a Curry recipes.& post our results etc..bit like my Curry log !!
Otherwise we will be going over the same mistake again & again.
1 . Are we all happy with our latest base ? I think it is versatile enough to make a Korma to a Phall as long as you leave out the chili powder (remember Mark`s post, they put the Chili powder in after !).
Although KD`s is fine if lacking flavor.
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I've just come off a month of curry. Out of 28 dishes, 4 were spot on, meaning the vast majortiy were not. However, it also means that 4 were, so I diid the right thing 4 times. I think next time I do a curry month, I am going to VIDEO myself cooking the bastards. Then, when I get it right once in every 7 or so attempts, I will have a video recording of me cooking it, so I can see EXACTLY how I did it.
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Ever thought of having a Curry log ? ( the things you do in desperation !!). ;D
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A simple log is not enough. I need to be able to have a arecord of exactly what I've done - not just a rough description of ingredients and method.
I want a record of the exact times between the addition of each ingredient, the way the dish reacted, how much it bubbled, how much falmbeing I did etc
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Whats "falmbeing"?. Is it a being from the planet falm ? ;D
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Hi all,
I am still not clear if it is the base that holds the taste.
We all seem to have got the perfect result at some time.
None of us are sure we know how.
Have we sometimes got the right result with and not got the right result with THE SAME BASE.
I haven't kept strict enough notes on what I do, just on the ingredients and quantities and brand names.
I'm getting so confused now that I have had to back and try all the things I was doing 10 years ago to include them or count them out - WHERE ARE WE ?
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T,
Cheers,
DEFEATED
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We have loads of witnessed curries being cooked.
This part is really simple
We seem to agree the base is about right
What we are missing is this strong smell that gets into the curry
I have been re reading the Bruce Edwards Curry House Cookery
His description of the "smokey barbeque flavour"from the Tandoor is what we want, isn't it?
That's why Mark J was told by his chef, cooking at home isn't the same result.
No tandoor.........No aroma
What do you think?
Or do people still think there is a missing ingredient or tecnique.
If Kris Dhillons base had the smell to it, we'd be there, wouldn't we?
Some of us have been plugging away for a very long time.
I don't believe we couldn't have had a happy accident by now.
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Hi all,
There is no smokey taste in my favourite local's curry, there are some in this area that do have the smokeieness.
HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT KRIS HAS JUST BECOME A MEMBER.... KRIS..... I KNOW THAT NAME FROM SOMEWHERE.
I still am not sure if the taste is in the base or the final dish and if you look at the posts all over this site no one has made the diffinitive statement.
cheers all,
FED up (literally)
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Try going back to basics, I make a very basic gravy and a basic curry no chicken bones or boiled moths or whatever in it and as far as im concerned when I sit down later in the evening with my pilau, naan and various dips and chutneys I couldn't tell a difference between what I make and the restaurant. Some might say that thats not the point its still not exactly the same as if youve just tipped it out of the silver carton, well its never going to be I don't have an indian restaurant in my house!!
I think some people are so obssesed with finding some hidden or missing ingredient its blinding the obvious facts that everything is already there in front of you. How many more gravys will we get from chefs which are almost identical except maybe 1 or 2 things, that rules out the gravy and the final dish is we all know is cooked quickly and simply. More practice and and maybe finding out some more techniques are whats needed. Im just waiting for someone to find out that if you stand a paticular way in front of the cooker on one leg squeezing your ear makes all the difference :-\
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No Smokey flavor in my local either !!
I believe it is just an ingredient with my local BIR that is missing as CK says, its so close & 99% of the info is here, I agree , some seem to be starting over again, Technique ? Yep same curry different results for me only because I'm still experimenting techniques etc..
I will be asking( as forcefully as i can for cooking lessons end of the summer season.)
CK i agree also my curries are 99% non failures now (our experience in cooking is helping ??).
Don`t give in Blondie i`ve got loads of recipes just ask they are much better than ever before now the base is right. ;D
One very notable thing ive noticed is not to cook the spices too high as they go bitter !!
You heat some oil & put a powder spice in it will stink !!
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?Im just waiting for someone to find out that if you stand a paticular way in front of the cooker on one leg squeezing your ear makes all the difference
Nope, I tried that already. :)
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Just come back from my local BIR, they pump out the very thick strong smell into the street and it is gorgeous, I sat in there tonight trying to analyse the smell and the only thing I could come up with is onions.
I mentioned this idea a while ago and I think it has some merrit: http://www.madgeandgeoffrey.co.uk/plain_sauce.htm checkout the chefs tip at the bottom.
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Its very much like KD`S restaraunt secret recipe ain't it ! ;)
It does a good job in getting close to my local BIR (but lacking in "the taste " thats missing & we love it sooooo!!!). :'(
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is reminds me of something........I made a Tarka Dal a few months ago and played around with the last bit where you add fried spices. I basically decided to use loads of fresh garlic, some onion and a couple of spices (small quantity) and my old favorite - ketchup. It had the taste. I'll dig out the recipe if anyone's interested.
The point is maybe the fried onion/garlic is a major factor. It kinda links to other posts about adding precooked onions. I've never bothered to try for curries before but this is starting to sound promising.
One other point when I made this recipe was when the ketchup hit the fried mixture, the 'smell/taste' hit my nostrils immediately. It was one of those 'FFS stunned moments'. The same feeling I got the first time I played Super Mario on an N64 and realised the 3D intro was the same as the game - you know the feeling - big smile, jaw drop moment :)
Anyway, please don't underestimate the ketchup - I got this tip from a Glasgow Restaurant owner a few years ago. I did try to pin him down on exact quantities and procedure but he was very scant on detail. He also said they used a good 'vegetable curry powder' - never figured out what that was, but he did say you could use any kind. That seems consistent with other reports on here.
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Here is the Tarka Dal recipe I mentioned above.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=320.0
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I made my first attemt at creating 'the smell' this evening, using the remainder of my MarkJ base sauce. I don't think I created the restaurant smell but it is so difficult to tell, isn't it, after standing over the stove for quite a while. I even tried going outside to clear my lungs. My objective was to create the smell , if not the taste. To this end, I used plenty of ground, dried fenugreek leaves, and some ground dried curry leaves, too. And plenty of curry powder, based on the restaurant masala mix. But it didn't seem to produce the desired smell, so I'm out of ideas. I am not presuaded that the addition of caramelised onions would produce the intense resturant smell, either. That smell is nothing subtle.
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Yes the smell is too distinct it might just be an ingredient !!!
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I really think the smell is down to garlic,ginger and onions.
When I get frying the above it just smells indian restaurant
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Sorry, we've wandered off topic onto the supject of the taste again ;D
Back on topic, I bought the SOTIRCR book and had quite good results with it, it was the best base I had encountered at that point. However after seeing Bruce Edwards curry house cookery it seems clear to me this guy ripped of Bruce's findings to make the book
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When i fry Onions,Garlic & ginger it bears no resemblance to the smell I'm trying to recreate
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When i fry Onions,Garlic & ginger it bears no resemblance to the smell I'm trying to recreate
For me, neither. The first stage of my 'finished dish' curry concoction last night was to fry onions, garlic and ginger. This didn't produce the smell, as far as I can tell (and it's very difficult to tell) and neither did subsequent stages including the addition of 'restaurant masala', ground fenugreek leaves and even garlic powder.
But the house stinks of curry this morning! If you asked anyone: "What's that smell?", they'd say: "Curry." What I seek is a smell which would have them saying "Curry, just like from an Indian restaurant."
Now I'm starting to think the restaurant smell could be an amalgam, like at least one chef is reported as saying. Any bread cooking smells good and distinctive. Tandoori chicken/lamb cooking has its own smell. So if there are nans and various dishes cooking in the tandoor, plus preparations not unlike I made last night on the top of various hobs, them maybe it produces the smell we all know and love.
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Have we sometimes got the right result with and not got the right result with THE SAME BASE.
Yes, I *always* use the same base - Dhillon. Each batch lasts me 6 curries. I've made perfect BIR curries with the taste (PBIRCWTT) one night, then not the next, using base from the same batch. The base is frozen in serving sized portions on the day of making it, so the amount of time the base has been 'standing' has nothing to do with it.
Seriously blondie - use a Dhillon base, and follow and refine the MarkJ dish method. You WILL hit upon the jackpot at some point.
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Which of Marks dishes ?
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& do you mean KD`s recipe base mix below?
" The Curry Secret".
900g cooking Onions.
50g Ginger.
50g Garlic.
1 litre 570ml water.
1 Teaspoon Salt.
225g tin Tomtoes.
8 Tablespoons Vegetable Oil.
1 Teaspoon Tomato puree.
1 Teaspoon Turmeric.
1 Teaspoon Paprika.
:)
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Yeap, thats the one. Measure it all out properly. Once I was 100g short on the onions, and it totally screwed it all up. The only place I differ slightly from Kris is that I tend to simmer the final stage for perhaps 10 minutes longer than she does; she suggests 20 mins, I normally do 30, as it takes that long for the scum to stop rising. I spose it will also make the sauce ever so slightly thicker.
One further thing I did last time which worked well, was to add sugar and salt to the base, rather than to the dishes. Since all my curry dishes contain about 1/2 a teaspoon each of both, and I get 6 dishes from each batch, I add 3 teaspoons of sugar and 3 of salt, during the final simmer. I figured that this would reduce margin for error.
The MarkJ recipies I followed were his ones for Balit and Patia.
The pre-cooked (and thus sweet) finely chopped onions are crucial. The fresh tomato is crucial. If adding chunks of onions and pepper, make sure these are pre cooked. Do a batch, and put them in the fridge.
I've stopped using Patacks for the Balit, and switched to curry masala (1/2 teaspoon), and called it a Bhuna :)
A lot of the time on this board, when people say they've tried to follow recipies and not had success, I suspect that in fact they've not quite followed the recipie, and ommited one or more ingredient, or swapped it for another. Then they wonder why its not working.
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Hi All,
I am finding this very annoying, I have had the KD book for many years and after all that time my conclusion is that the base sauce needs to be very simple like the KD version with very very mild slightly savoury taste. It seems to me that the KD base was very near perfect all along, but the method and overspicing of the final dishes let them down.
Having said that, most of the bases posted on this forum are excellent in themselves, but probably more suited to more upper class BIRs.
Don't worry about me giving up, there is no chance of that. I am so practiced at making not quite good enough curries, that I can make even the worst disasters quite enjoyable to eat.
Over the years I have found that slightly too much capsicum or slightly too much garlic or slightly too much ginger or slightly too much spice can all completely destroy the base. Maybe this is why chefs say that cooking the base in small quantities at home won't work.
Here we go again, more cooking in the morning.
cheers all,
Blondie
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I agree with you Blondie, KD`s base makes a good Curry ,but for one thing .......
With the latest base i have found it is easier to make more "good Curries".
With KD`s one error & the Curry was a failure, because of its simplicity it was easily affected by incorrect & over spicing.
So the new base gives us flexability & makes it hard to make a bad Curry,but does not necessarily mean its correct.
As i`ve said i`m going to be very persuasive end on the season & try for cooking lessons at my home ( "you see this hammer Mr chef,if you don't except these crates of Beer & train me it will contact rather heavily with the soft collection of objects in your trousers!!"). ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Darthy,
In my area we have a chef who has been one of the top BIR chefs in the country for a good few years. He has been planning to open another restaurant in the city centre which it is planned will have a training school for chefs upstairs. I am not holding my breath because it has been in the planning for 18 months that i am aware of. I'll try and get into the training course if and when it ever happens but I suspect it will be (without it being said) just for ... I don't want to cause offense but you probably know what I mean, it won't be for joe public.
Anyway I'll try, but some time off yet I think,
cheers Darfty,
Blondie
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Nice one Blondie looks like we are all going for Indian cooking lessons & then open
" DARTHMAHAL Indian Resteraunt & Take-away"!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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When i fry Onions,Garlic & ginger it bears no resemblance to the smell I'm trying to recreate
I am sure it's from the tandoor
I have been in the kitchens when this smell is being made and it doen't smell so strong there.
It's mainly being vented outside (check the large metal pipes, about 14 inch diameter), all that was going on was curry gravy being warmed up and the tandoor cooking kebabs.
When I came home,I was told that I reeked of an indian restaurant.
And I couldn't tell.
Of one thing I am sure
There are two different aromas
The curry gravy/cooked curry smell
The tandoor smell
We all make the first, but the ellusive one is the second.
Let's face it, when someone lights up a babeque, you can smell it from a hundred yards.
The tandoor is like a very intense spicy barbeque
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The pre-cooked (and thus sweet) finely chopped onions are crucial. The fresh tomato is crucial. If adding chunks of onions and pepper, make sure these are pre cooked. Do a batch, and put them in the fridge.
I've stopped using Patacks for the Balit, and switched to curry masala (1/2 teaspoon), and called it a Bhuna :)
A lot of the time on this board, when people say they've tried to follow recipies and not had success, I suspect that in fact they've not quite followed the recipie, and ommited one or more ingredient, or swapped it for another. Then they wonder why its not working.
Thomashenry, do you caramalise the precooked onions. Can you provide the recipe you use ? is it freezeable ?
any chance you could post the full adapated final recipe for the Bhuna
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I found this recipe & method for caramalised onions, so I've made a batch and will use in tonight's final dish creation.....
onwards and upwards.........
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A staple in my kitchen are saut?ed caramelized onions. Like a dependable rich chicken stock in your freezer, they can be called on to be the backbone of, or a savory complement to, a variety of dishes. I cook up a large batch, which will keep, covered in the refrigerator, for four or five days. Or you can freeze the precooked onions in small quantities in plastic bags for use as you wish.
Here?s how to prepare them. Peel and halve four to six yellow onions and cut into thin slices. (I also add two cloves of minced garlic, but this is optional.) This may look like a lot, but the onions will cook down. Heat a large skillet over a high flame and pour in one to two tablespoons of olive oil. Add the onions and a bit of salt. Stir, coating the onions with the oil. Continue to saut? for about five minutes over the high heat. Then turn the flame down to medium-low, leaving the onions to saut? slowly. Stir them often, for about ten more minutes, until they reach a golden brown color. If you desire, add a bit of white or red wine at this point. Continue cooking, turning down the heat to simmer if you need to, so as not to scorch the onions. Continue for another five to fifteen minutes, or until the onions begin to caramelize and develop a rich, deep golden brown. There should be some caramelized brown goodies adhering to the bottom of the pan, so deglaze them with a bit of chicken stock or white wine and stir them into the onions. Add salt and freshly ground pepper, and remove from heat. At this point, the onions, along with any of their accumulated juices, are ready to store in the refrigerator or freezer. And you are prepared to create any number of tasty goodies.
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The pre-cooked (and thus sweet) finely chopped onions are crucial. The fresh tomato is crucial. If adding chunks of onions and pepper, make sure these are pre cooked. Do a batch, and put them in the fridge.
I've stopped using Patacks for the Balit, and switched to curry masala (1/2 teaspoon), and called it a Bhuna :)
A lot of the time on this board, when people say they've tried to follow recipies and not had success, I suspect that in fact they've not quite followed the recipie, and ommited one or more ingredient, or swapped it for another. Then they wonder why its not working.
Thomashenry, do you caramalise the precooked onions. Can you provide the recipe you use ? is it freezeable ?
any chance you could post the full adapated final recipe for the Bhuna
I will do shortly, during my next curry making phase. I think that the pre-fried onions need to beomce something people look at in the same way as they do their base sauce, and pre-prepare a batch as a matter of course.
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Hi All,
I am finding this very annoying, I have had the KD book for many years and after all that time my conclusion is that the base sauce needs to be very simple like the KD version with very very mild slightly savoury taste.? It seems to me that the KD base was very near perfect all along, but the method and overspicing of the final dishes let them down.
Blondie
Yes, the base really isn't that bad.
I've posted recipes which are very similar from chefs!
But the the curry secret recipes are rubbish.
None seem to have the pureed garlic in.
None seem to do the chopped garlic bit either.
No mention of pre fried onion.
And loads of garam masala used.
I don't think these recipes are from first hand experience.
All the kitchens I have been in, use these ice cream (or yoghurt) cartons with puree garlic and chopped garlic which seem to be in just about every meal.
Curry Secret gives no mention of chicken stock either.
But the base is ok
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I found his Vindalloo recipe is half-way there in taste mind you, but lacking the added special taste/smell we are all looking to copy.