Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Derek Dansak on November 12, 2008, 01:11 PM
-
From time spent chatting to a bir chef at my local, i suspect the answer is no! he learnt to cook from copying other chefs when he used to work as a kitchen porter. He reproduces all the techniques he was taught, and hey presto it produces great curries. however, despite many attempts, he has not managed to explain why my curries lack that missing taste. i have copied all the techniques and tricks he suggested, and although the curries are very good, they lack something. This makes me wonder what bulk cooking processes chefs might overlook when trying to teach how to cook a good madras. there must be numerous bulk cooking techniques which might contribute to the taste. for example cooking up large quantities of lamb and chicken each day. do the stocks from these get thrown in the base? what other bulk cooking techniques might we be overlooking at this site? Does the fact the bir pan is so seasoned influence the taste? Perhaps future visits to bir kitchens should try to work out what these missing parts of the jigsaw are. Thats assuming the bir chefs know themselves!
-
Hi Derek
Please explain the taste you are missing; people who have tasted my curries reckon they are better than takeaways they have had, and some have commented that they also have they same taste but far more flavour than the takeaways of old.
I always thought i could make a reasonable curry until I came across this site, about four years ago; now I believe I am making the best curries that I ever have. I think its a great compliment to my cooking when friends arrive at my house and tell me "if it tastes as good as it smells then we are in for a treat", they never go away disappointed.
There is a wealth of information on this site and I have said many times in the past takeaways and BIR are just getting money for old rope I stopped buying off them years ago because I was really disappointed with them.
How do you actually go about cooking your curries. I myself heat oil in a wok add garlic/ginger paste,tomato puree, raw chicken, then I add the spices (chili,deggi murgh,cumin,coriander and garam masalla) stirring all the time making sure the chicken don't go brown then I add a little water to make it all into a massala paste, don't get me wrong the spices will get in the throat until you have become accustomed to it.
I then add a couple of chef's spoon of base sauce, one at a time I don't add another spoonfull until the oil floats each time and season it this whole process takes about 10 minutes or so but I am cooking at the highest heat I possibly can.
If I find that there is too much oil present after cooking then I just take off the excess oil.
I'm sure other members have very different ways of cooking, this just works for me when I'm making a madras or vindaloo I feel you get a better taste when you cook the spices in oil and not add them to the base sauce as the curry secret suggests(although I still think this was a good book) when I started out cooking curries.
Moving the spices around in the wok when you add them is essential as you do not want to burn them always add a little water this will help.
-
Hi, are you saying your madras tastes identical to a decent bir purchased madras? I can replicate poor quality bir dishes, but not the dishes from well regarded restaurants. despite having lessons from the head chef at a good bir. thats the reason i started this thread! The head bir chef seemed as lost as me, as to why i can't replicate that flavor at home. its obviously something circumstantial to bulk cooking. but what it is remains a mystery for many members of this site
-
I understand where your coming from. Been trying to replicate the flavour and TASTE for about 20 years now. Wondering if it was a particular spice or ingredient etc... I'm still none the wiser but I do think this site provides a near BIR style :)
Still working on the last bit myself. Wondering if its putting the finished dish in an aluminium container at the end of cooking lol :P
-
Hi
No, what I'm saying is they have lost the plot they do not produce good curries any more and I think myself and a lot of others on this site take more pride in our cooking.
I'm sure if I or say CK cooked you a curry you would be pleasantly supprised, sometimes we look a little too far into things looking for something that does not exist; in todays age you just can't keep some elusive ingredient a secret. Enjoy your curries I'm sure they are great.
-
Wondering if its putting the finished dish in an aluminium container at the end of cooking lol
Tried that. :(
-
hi bod68, i agree totally with your comment regarding this site providing a near bir style. i think you could open an acceptable restaurant based just on this sites recipies and tips. however whether it could compete with a really good bir is another thing. good luck with the quest !
-
i think you could open an acceptable restaurant based just on this sites recipies and tips
It's my dream to open a Bobby Bhuna's. Don't go stealing my idea Derek! ;D
-
DD,
interesting post. i must admit nothing adds up for me either. the best chefs (as i understand) are brought in from India yet i always have to pinch myself how very little spicing there is. so why would someone experienced in traditional do so well across the fence.
i along with your chef can't believe given what u say that u've not mastered it. your spice mix for example is spot on.
for me it must be down to technique somewhere. you will need to explain "the missing taste" more to help us align with your thoughts - appreciate it's not easy to put in words.
-
As most of you probably know I live in France where spicy dishes aren't the norm; as aren't Indian Restaurants. I have made curries for locals and toned them down a bit and they have said its the best thing they've ever had.
Unfortunately I know better and it ISN'T an Indian Restaurant curry :(
-
Bod68 - if the locals like it, then it sounds to me there's a gap in the market! Open one up yourself. Doesn't need to be 100% BIR, you can call it a FIR :P
-
I still think we should consider that our
sense of smell could be destroyed when we cook,
this would be for a period of time.
Taking the foil lid off or walking into a bir from
the fresh air could make our sense of smell go into over
drive.
So could this walking in effect or the removal of the lid
when added to a good bir's cooking play a big part in what our
brain see as a new stimuli, even if we had it yesterday?
Consider how many times have we been tempted by the fish and chip
smell alone. Only to be so disappointed with the goods we are
given to eat from the same shop.
I know we are missing something, but I do think the effect of us
cooking and the resulting overload stops us from enjoying our home
cooked grub, be it Indian or what ever and should be considered.
After cooking for hours on end I often buy a takeaway as long
as its diffrent from what i am cooking.
-
I would agree. For those that haven't tried the clothespeg-on-the-nose-while-cooking, give it a go. You actually feel hungrier and anticipate it more during the prep before eating. That may be similar to the anticipation on the drive home from the takeaway.
Try it. Is it the last 5%? No. But its at least 2 or 3%
-
Hi bobby, i think we could all do with a 'bobby bhuna's bir' opening at the bottom of the road! lol
-
not exactly to do with the posted question but i guess very much related - why don't the chef's taste the food. i know it's been said that they are not keen on the taste but just relying on sight seems to be sailing close to the wind unless the qty's don't really need to be that exact (and we with our measuring spoons are well wrong) or they do and sight is a better/quicker method.
-
the best chefs (as i understand) are brought in from India
As I understand it, BIR chefs are predominantly Bengali/Bangladeshi/Pakistani and not Indian
-
Quite right CA. Bangladeshi are the best for me by a long way. I almost now ask the chef's origin as it's only recently that i've realised that the sign "Indian" TA or Restaurant is very misleading.
But why don't they taste or is sight the better way. Knowing this for me might just open up a bit more of an insight into where the taste comes from.
-
But why don't they taste or is sight the better way. Knowing this for me might just open up a bit more of an insight into where the taste comes from.
Why would they NEED to taste it if they have made over 10000 all the same way? Its a base with several different ingrediants for the different curries?
Like riding a bike after the first 5000 surely?
-
It would be really interesting to know all the details of mass producing curry in a busy bir. For example vindaloo includes a few pre cooked potatoes. these potatoes are pre cooked with spices, in bulk, and then stored in the fridge ready to drop into the vindaloo during dish preperation. There must be lots of other similar bulk preperation happening which we dont know about. for example making chicken tikka in bulk. perhaps the leftover sauces are somehow fed back into the base, or final dish to increase flavor. If anyone has friends who work in bir restaurants, maybe they could get some insider info on this, and report back. I know 2 bir waiters who mentioned the importance of bulk cooking to getting that bir taste. both stated thats why you can't do it at home! not sure i believe that, but hey, its worth pursueing.
-
i'd go along with the bulk cooking a bit. for admin's jalfrezi i always pre fry the onion and green pepper. i've tried cooking them as the dish proceeds (ie the traditional way) but it's way off the mark comapared to pre frying.
on the taste v sight front my interest is based on conventional cooks the "Michelin's" who taste everything compared to BIR's who don't. the BIR practise suggest's the cooking must be easy peasy which it is in terms of putting ingredients in a pan for sure but as we all know it's critical to getting consistent taste. for me not tasting even the 1st of the night is just crazy yet they pull it off. why? surely it's not down to getting 1000's wrong before getting it right. does it for example account for the inconsistencies across BIR's with some very good and a lot rubbish.
-
Quite right CA. Bangladeshi are the best for me by a long way. I almost now ask the chef's origin as it's only recently that i've realised that the sign "Indian" TA or Restaurant is very misleading.
I used to think that but i wouldnt say it's very misleading. Bangladeshis were Indians until recently. I guess they think that less people will know what bangladeshi food is like than indian.
-
I tried to find the site and post a link, but I couldn't find it again. I came across a Bangladeshi travel website site time ago, and clicked on the "food" link. What was interesting is that while they were going through some of the must-try local dishes, it was like reading a BIR takeaway menu: tikka, tandoori, bhuna, dopiaza, patia, rogan, dhansak, biryani, naan, shashlik, etc. I don't know if they were deliberately targeting British tourists, but found this interesting. Much more "BIR" than a similar list of common dishes in India.
What I did learn today by scanning bangladesh.com, is that today's most popular search on their website is "adult picture". Lol.
-
Thanks Graeme, I must say I have always believed that the effect on our nostrils and sense of smell as we cook will have a significant role in why we cant fully recreate the BIR experience. When being introduced to tasting wine we learn that the nose has everything to do with actually tasting. The nose is actually planted right inside the glass and in order to taste the subtlety of the wine we need to develop our nose.
The spices we use in our cooking are hardly subtle and by comparison must almost shock our senses as the aromas are released through the frying in hot oil. By he time we serve up and eat the food I suspect we are limited in our ability to taste it or smell it the same. Thanks too Joshallen2k , I have never had ago with the closepeg but since you say it works I will have a go next time.
Last night I cooked Admin's Jalfrezi and Madras as per one of JerryM's postings, both chicken. I folowed instructions to the letter and my wife scored them as follows
Looks/Presentation Jalfrezi 10, Madras 10.
Smell Jalfrezi 9, Madras 9
Tate Jalfrezi 9.5, Madras 8.5
The Madras flavour was scored slightly less due to it not being as hot as she was expecting. I limited the amount of chili so I am not concerned at this little variation. I did however not use the "Secret Ingredient Onion Paste" since I have not had the time to make a batch and in both dishes I know it would have made a significant difference. By the time we are getting scores like what my wife gave last night any improvement has to be subtle and the paste certainly does that as JerryM has pointed out.
Having said that I could not taste or smell in any real terms that would allow me to give a reliable score due to I believe my argument above. When friends come over they equally score the food highly and almost cant believe the quality I can recreate, though I am never satisfied.
I hope to be in the Kitchens of a leading Glasgow BIR over the next few weeks and cant wait to figure out what is missing, if anything.
I now use the pans they use although limited currently by a halogen hob but In a months time I will be using a descent gas cooker. I will be using the paste again by then and I intend to ask for a basic bunch of recipes I can follow. So the base sauce the ingredients of the pastes they do use and the spice mix. The precooked meats and onions etc too.
If I am lucky enough to get this info followed by carefully observing the process of actually cooking then if there is still something missing then I must come from either or a combination of the following.
The Heat from their gas jets.
The burning or flaming of the contents either in the pan or as they splash.
The the nostril and taste buds being adjusted.
Or and it is still big or for me that they do indeed use a "secret ingredient" that serves to seduce our senses like no other resteraunt style does and almost has us addicted to the smell and taste. If it exists and it has these effects then it might explain why the Chefs don't eat the food themselves.
I genuinely cant wait to get into the kitchen and explore all of this and no matter the outcome I will continue to push myself to finally recreate the 100% BIR Duplicate.
-
Panpot,
well pleased the good lady is happy (they're certainly tricky customers).
i'm not sure on the paste in the jalfrezi (i guess it's got be a give it a try to decide oneway or the other).
it sounds like the Glasgow opportunity is one of a lifetime. when the SnS trip had looked on i'd given some thought as to what are the key bits of info we need and found it very hard to decide on priority.
i think just being in the kitchen for any length of time will provide a fantastic insight just on it's own. my final top 3 are here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3001.msg27241#msg27241 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3001.msg27241#msg27241).
i was also interested in Haldi's thought that there must be something circumstantial ie something done in the BIR as a matter of fact that we would not naturally think of doing at home.
-
Thanks JerryM I will certainly go in with a wee note book and questions ready so any further thoughts and anyone else's welcome to ensure I take the most out of the opportunity. Cheers Panpot
-
Thanks Panpot ::)
Panpot other Bir members,
Have you tyred prawns in sweet and hot curry
(prawn patia) this is found in 50 Great Curries of India
from Camellia Panjabi.
Page 126 in the new A5 smaller book, its in the bigger A4 book too.
The A5 book i have is ISBN 1-84509-264-3
Not BIR style but goes some way to pleasing guests.
You dont need to add any prawns at this stage just make
the sauce. see what you think, it stinks the house/street BIR
style for days :-)
However as we know the book does contain a few errors, i am sure you will
work this recipe out for your self.
I use a pint glass full on onions or more, plus one full tin of toms.
I also use the BBQ :-)) even in the snow.
graeme.
-
Hi panpot, try and discover if they use plain vegetable oil for each dish. or if they pre treat the vegetable oil with some additive we are all unaware of. i have spent quite a bit of time in a bir kitchen and always wondered if the oil they cook in is plain vegetable oil. when i asked them they said it was veg oil. it certainly looked like clean fresh veg oil. however it came from a big tub and not straight from the bottle. i wonder if they treat it with some additive? this would exaplin a lot if they did. might be worth asking if they use any spiced oils, which are quite popular in real indian/bangledesh cuisine. cheers DD
-
DD/Panpot,
i'm always amazed that any BIR uses fresh veg oil to cook in. i appreciate the potential hygiene issue. the malik's video shows how they scoop off the top of the base to cook each dish. the difference in taste is worlds apart too.
i've recently switched from red to yellow oil (i don't put paprika in the base at the mo). u'd be surprised how close it looks to fresh oil. i suspect that the yellow oil is not as good (potent) as the red oil though and most probably will change back even though my local/fav TA uses yellow oil off the top of the base.
-
I have been told by one chef that they only use plain veg oil but no that they are probably in a minority, this guy happened to be quite young and was very up on H&S.
-
it certainly looked like clean fresh veg oil. however it came from a big tub and not straight from the bottle. i wonder if they treat it with some additive?
So veg oil comes in a tub now?
Derek it was veg ghee mate!
Seriously derek, I mean seriously, veg oil in a big tub?
-
So veg oil comes in a tub now?
Derek it was veg ghee mate!
Seriously derek, I mean seriously, veg oil in a big tub?
In a restaurant in udaipur, india their oil came in a thin bag! The kind you might get sweets in but thinner, like a sandwich bag/cling film!
Guess what? The bag melted and oil poured all over the work surface! ::)
-
Thanks for the check list guys I will do what I can,I hope to get news this week of a visit soon. Bye the way looking at the Malik video for the first time today as JerryM points out the chef tend to use the oil form the simmering base sauce pot yet without any obvious reason occasionally uses what looks like ghee.
-
It could be veg ghee. is veg ghee hard, or soft and runny at room temperature? i will cook my next madras in pure veg ghee. maybe the extra heat permitted during frying will do some magic?
-
someone should pluck up courage to take in a sample of one of our lightly spiced madras dishes, and ask the bir chef to sample it. then just ask why it does not have that delicious toffee sweet taste which is common to all bir dishes. i cant see any other way to break through the barrier we have reached. if the chef does not know, then it must be a circumstantial thing to do with bulk cooking. I will try to take in a sample to my local ta, if i can be cheeky enough! :)
-
DD,
not wanting to poo poo the idea of taking a sample at all. those at my local TA are very proud of their product (and rightly so). i feel u would get more value from taking a recipe in and asking what's wrong. why i say this is it's very difficult to detect what's wrong by taste alone other than to say it's no good. by looking at the recipe and talking around how u make it or even asking to watch them making yours - more success likely for me.
-
JerryM your a genius, I now have an appointment on Sunday afternoon to visit the Kitchens of very popular BIR. I think you have got it spot on with this idea of taking in a recipe or two and ask for advice. Maybe your good self and others could suggest the best recipes to take in that may well be the one most closest to BIR. It could be Curry King's Bhuna made with SnS's base or CA's Jalfrezi what do you think?
Any other questions welcome.
I cant wait Panpot
-
someone should pluck up courage to take in a sample of one of our lightly spiced madras dishes, and ask the bir chef to sample it. then just ask why it does not have that delicious toffee sweet taste which is common to all bir dishes. i cant see any other way to break through the barrier we have reached. if the chef does not know, then it must be a circumstantial thing to do with bulk cooking. I will try to take in a sample to my local ta, if i can be cheeky enough! :)
I've already taken my Madras to both the Saffron and my local takeaway (much to the amusement of waiting customers). The Saffron (Raj - chef & manager) said he would have no problem using it in the restaurant although it was a little on the sweet side for his taste (I'd added a little mango chutney). The takeaway (Latif - head chef) said he couldn't detect any lemon juice (I prefer not to use it in a Madras) but otherwise a perfectly acceptable BIR curry.
The base used was the SnS Base Gravy June 2008 and the accompanying Madras recipe.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2757.msg24503#msg24503
SnS ;D
-
The base used was the SnS Base Gravy June 2008 and the accompanying Madras recipe.
I'm going to attempt this some time later in the week. After my first attempt (with the original base) I am looking forward to trying this amended version.
-
Panpot,
well pleased and hope visit goes well. you're very lucky.
as for recipe i'd go for your fav dish rather than base. i feel having tasted real BIR base the bases on this site are well capable of delivering BIR curry.
for me the hardest to crack appears to be madras. the closest recipe i've found is the rajver http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1454.msg12717.html#msg12717
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1454.msg12717.html#msg12717). with the onion paste i feel i'm very close. i don't use lemon juice and make a few tweaks but which are very small personal preferences (madras must be sweet & tomatoey). i intend putting some passata into the next go following the advice given in the onion paste post.
for me madras is crucial as it's essential tool for deriving the other recipes.
my recipe for info is per 200ml portion: 1 to 2 tbsp fine chopped garlic, 2 tbsp reclaim oil, 2 tbsp tom puree, 1 tsp mix powder (spice mix), 1 tsp rajah curry powder, 1/4 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp chilli powder, 300ml base, 1 tbsp chopped coriander, splash worcester sauce, 1 tbsp onion paste.
-
The base used was the SnS Base Gravy June 2008 and the accompanying Madras recipe.
I'm going to attempt this some time later in the week. After my first attempt (with the original base) I am looking forward to trying this amended version.
Good luck SS - hope it goes well for you.
SnS ;)
-
i don't use lemon juice and make a few tweaks but which are very small personal preferences (madras must be sweet & tomatoey).
It's interesting that. I would never use lemon juice in a madras or a vindaloo so we agree on that score. Also I agree a madras should be tomatoey, or at least more tomatoey than a vindaloo. A sweet madras? Well yes, I've had them, but I wouldn't personally describe it as absolutely necessary.
-
Secret Santa,
agree on the sweetness - yes not that sweet at all just not bitter i guess would be a better description. i don't have much sugar in anything ie none in tea and coffee so sweet for me is definitely a lot less sweet than for most people.
well spotted.
-
the sweetness I taste in bir madras is not sugar. i tried adding sugar and its totally wrong for madras. its quite subtle , and actually not a sugary sweetness. maybe increasing the use of butter or ghee would help. butter in the base maybe?
-
for me madras is crucial as it's essential tool for deriving the other recipes.
The CURRY BASE is the "essential tool" for delivering the other recipes Jerry! How can it be a madras when it's hotter than most other curries? :-\
-
CA,
apologies if i've not been clear enough. yes curry base is "the" essential tool.
the trouble for me is that i have very narrow BIR taste buds. despite BIR's having vast numbers of dishes on their menu's there are very few i repeatedly go for ie enjoy. in fact i believe the ones i like are essentially derivatives of madras or part of the same set.
in short the recipes i'm interested in rightly or wrongly are based around having a madras curry sauce as their sauce. the dish i'm specifically targeting is sylhety. i was told by my local BIR that the sylhety is based around bhuna. i've tried the site's bhuna recipes and what i'm after is a million miles from a bhuna. i have tried bhuna in restaurant but was not a fan of it there either. the only conclusion i've been able to draw is that the sylhety is based around a madras (or sits in the madras or whatever family).
hence my original statement and why madras is a tool to me. i guess i should have added at the end "... other recipes i like".
-
Jerry I think CA had a brainfart when he made that comment and I think he really did know what you were getting at.
But, if he didn't, then I think I did. You are saying that the madras is almost the most basic curry you can make, in the savoury category, and if you can master that then all else will follow on naturally. I'd agree with that 100%.
-
Secret Santa,
u obviously went to a better school than me. so eloquently put. thankfully i don't have to depend on my english for my trade or i'd be in trouble. ;D