Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on October 22, 2008, 07:25 AM
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like most of us i'm striving towards that BIR taste and trying different ideas to prove or discount what's done for real.
Secret Santa has given me the idea of pulling a set of myth's together so that we all avoid as many not pitfalls but dead ends as possible. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2940.msg27403#msg27403 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2940.msg27403#msg27403).
i'm thinking 1st to agree a definitive list, then put them in order, then add the reasoning.
the myth's already exposed!
1) tom puree
2) coconut cream
i've got about 10 but found them difficult to pull out from the little grey cells.
please put your 2p in and i'll collate them into a list. even if u don't know the answer but feel it's a myth stick it in for good measure.
i hope this might just help us all get rid of this last 5% wood for the trees issue.
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Any truth Jerry in "Asefatida"?
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Any truth Jerry in "Asefatida"?
Not sure what your question is Bod, but if you mean do they use it, then yes they do, well at least Malik's BIR does. This is another ingredient I forgot to include in the Malik's base list. I saw them liberally sprinkling stuff from a little yellow pot and it took me a while, but eventually I realised it was asafoetida and the brand is Vandevi.
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I thought dried fenugreek leaf (quasuri methi) was the answer at one stage, it wasn't, although it did help a bit!
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Any truth Jerry in "Asefatida"?
Not sure what your question is Bod, but if you mean do they use it, then yes they do, well at least Malik's BIR does. This is another ingredient I forgot to include in the Malik's base list. I saw them liberally sprinkling stuff from a little yellow pot and it took me a while, but eventually I realised it was asafoetida and the brand is Vandevi.
If it is important why is it not in the base or the curry? Intrigued...
Thanks for replying :)
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Bod68,
i've had a few things on my shopping list in my wallet which have been there for a while now - i guess i must feel they are on the fringe of the myth. they are asafoetida, fresh methi, kashmiri mirch. the kashmiri mirch is not widely available and why i've not bought it.
i hope this post can sort these questions ie is asafoetida a significant ingredient - from the recipes u'd think not.
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here's my additional items, no order as yet
secret ingredient
wok hey
smoking oil
healthy curry
reclaimed oil
recipes from one base only
fancy base ingredients
onion cooking
please get your niggles down on paper, then we can put some definition to them and get them in order.
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cool post. the biggest myth, that many bir waiters tell customers is "we use hundreds of spices to make all our dishes". its a complete lie, which just sounds impressive. Before finding this site, i completely believed this myth! :) It actually amazes me how few spices bir chefs use.
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If it is important why is it not in the base or the curry? Intrigued...
Thanks for replying :)
Umm, I think you misread my answer. I said they do use asafoetida, in Malik's takeaway they use it in the base.
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Jerry the idea that a particular type of chilli powder gives the BIR style... nonesense. We've had deggi mirch, kashmiri chilli, etc. etc., they don't make a blind bit of difference in general. The only real difference is the heat factor and the colour they impart to the final curry. They have no impact whatsoever on the BIR flavour. Myth number, umm, where are we now?
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recipes from one base only
If by that Jerry you mean you can mix and match bases to any curry recipe, then NO! Each BIR base is made to match with the BIR's mix powder and general cooking techniques.
Now, that's not to say you can't put any base with any curry recipe and come up with something edible and indeed pleasant, but in general base/curry mix and match is a no no!
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The Wok Hey's not it. I have a well seasoned carbon steel wok and even if I get it smoking and do a smalll sauce portion, it doesn't give the BIR effect. Jerry, CA and Haldi, to name a few, have massive burners, and still can't get the flavour their after. For the most part however, members with this gear do think it adds something positive.
Perhaps this is just one important piece of a large puzzle.
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The Wok Hey's not it.
Absolutely agree Bobby, at least not for BIR cooking. For Chinese however, it is absolutely a must, as long as you understand that Wok hay is a myth and is all about furnace style heat, not some magic imparted from a layer(?) on the wok.
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If it is important why is it not in the base or the curry? Intrigued...
Thanks for replying :)
Umm, I think you misread my answer. I said they do use asafoetida, in Malik's takeaway they use it in the base.
Chill out a bit Secret was only asking the question... Anyway was hoping it was part of it as I always try to put it in but still doesn;t seem to ADD the 5% or go anywhere near it. Was reading the Pat Chapman books which introduced the theory of a BASE for curries. Never knew before. Going to try the Deathphall recipe tomorrow evening and see how it is. Will get back to you on my observations.
Cheers again Jerry for a great thread!
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as long as you understand that Wok hay is a myth and is all about furnace style heat, not some magic imparted from a layer(?) on the wok.
Oh for sure! Nonsense on that one. It's all about the non stick coating provided by the patina and the intense heat! The old saying the blacker the wok the better the cook - they cook more, so are probably better practised, and their non stick surface is sound. There's no more to it!
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thanks all for throwing in your thoughts - i'm sure we will all have a good laugh on this one.
i have it in mind to start the answer to the myth as true or false - aiming that everyone?s real humdingers can go in the pot. even if we don't all agree on what the answer is at least we can document all views in a constructive argument (can u really have one).
i think chilli is the 11th myth but we really won't to order them in ascending order once their all exposed.
Keep them coming.
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It's all about the non stick coating provided by the patina and the intense heat! The old saying the blacker the wok the better the cook...
Couldn't have put it better if I had tried.
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we have identified a further 2 off myth's
- schwartz curry powder
- pre 90's or whatever era superior curries
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we have identified a further 2 off myth's
- schwartz curry powder
- pre 90's or whatever era superior curries
I don't want to disrespect the long standing members by throwing out the pre 90's thing. They do certainly believe it. I can also see why it is a little unbelievable, especially for us younger members. Could it be that an individuals palette changes with time, or something similar?
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Industrial Spec Gas Burners IMO a myth
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Well put BB.
My father is in his late 50s and knows his Curry's and says the curry from our local restaurant has stayed the same since he first tasted it.
I think the biggest problem is,where you had just one takeaway in your high street years ago, and your restaurant was maybe a few miles away we appreciated it more.(And still to this day they cook the best Curry's in my area!)
But these days to many are opening up to make a quick buck and the quality is naff,and when we try them, which we all have done we say"oh my god that was crap I'm not going there again.)
Like the chef said to me on my visit there is only one way to cook a good curry,And i asked so excitedly "WHATS THAT"and he said "THE RIGHT WAY" :)
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Industrial Spec Gas Burners IMO a myth
That's a bit of a bold statement Mick. Industrial spec is one large difference between us and them and could go some way towards getting it right.
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WoW.... some self self-opinionated bir members giving
it some wallop on this topic...
Anyway, who are we to dismiss other bir members ideas anyway?
But pls do continue and I am sure a fight will break out soon
with the "f**" term being used once again. I am sure its on its way :-X
Thank you Bobby B and K Curry,
some sense (and courtesy to other bir members)
comes back into this topic.
Back in the good old days...
IMHO, The food was of a better quality and the taste was better
more of the time (some birs were poor quality back then too)
The same takeaway provided me with my fix for over 25 years,
the chef left and the owner started to cook himself. Sending
me red soup instead of my normal brown sludge, the smell alone
of my old style curry would have your mouth watering causing me
to have another fix the next day.
This could have been due to cooking style or the quality of the
food that had to be produced to keep customers, i simply don't know.
Anyway sorry to interrupt do please continue...
you will be adding my almond powder to this list soon :o
dont even think about it ;)
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soz I was being a bit sarcy. I just meant that after reading Haldis thread on the subject, i didnt think that there wasn't much to be gained from high output gas bbq burners :-[
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"i didnt think that there wasn't much to be
gained from high output gas bbq burners"
In the videos the burners dont seem to be
that high do they, but could still be far
hotter than my hob at home. lets ask Haldi ;)
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Back to the "pre 90s taste". Having thought about it, I really don't think it is a myth. Our members (or a least most of them) aren't daft! Added to that it tends to be our more experienced longer term members who speak of this. They know one curry from another so I'm willing to give them the benifit of the doubt.
I'm not suggesting that come 1990 every curry changed, only that perhaps a trend towards making curries slightly differently came into play. Maybe something came out that made things cheaper, or as mentioned previously, maybe health regulations were enforced.
The only constructive thing we can do from here is to get someone (fancy a trip SS :P) from the old school to identify somewhere serving curry worthy of a good BIR circa 1989 ;D. We can then work from there.
In my experience, I have had curry from one grubby place on Easter Road, Edinburgh, that for me has all the things that describe this pre 1990 taste, although how accuratley can you describe an aroma / taste. It's called The Shapla. It looks pretty ghetto but did win the best in Scotland award a year or back.
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The last old style bir i had was around a year ago :)
very nice.
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The only constructive thing we can do from here is to get someone (fancy a trip SS :P) from the old school to identify somewhere serving curry worthy of a good BIR circa 1989 ;D. We can then work from there.
The thing is Bobby I haven't been able to find any restaurants in my locality (Northamptonshire) that have that old fashioned taste and smell any more. Admittedly I eat out much less nowadays but I thought I would stumble across at least one. I know CA recommended one in Cambridge a while ago and I might try that eventually, just to see if our ideas of this old fashioned curry actually match.
I really would like to find even just one that does that old style, if nothing else, just so I can say na na na na na naaaaaa! to all the young unbelieving whippersnappers we seem to have here. ;D ( I'm only 46 btw, so not really an oldie myself!)
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Old school curries are definitely not an urban myth, I posted these BIRs before - they still exist.
1. Anarkali, Victoria road Glasgow - the best there is in my view.
2. Terrys Balti, Blackpool (been only once, but the curry had the taste - side dishes/accompaniments were a bit weird, but that's probably regional variation)
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1. Anarkali, Victoria road Glasgow - the best there is in my view.
I'm going to try this one next time I'm in Glasgow!
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just to increase focus on the aim of the "myth" post.
it's aim is not to upset anyone. it's to enable all to see the wood from the trees better by setting out the case for each so that member's can take an informed judgement.
my hope is that it will set some common basic's for us all and possibly highlight potential gaps as to why we've not delivered this restaurant taste in the main across the site's recipes or for it's members.
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Jerry, I'm lovin this topic btw! ;D
Basaar Masala. It's naff. Some people say it helps achieve that old fashioned taste, but I've tried it every which way and it's plain rubbish! :P
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Bobby,
it's the hope to keep it light hearted and a bit of fun with of coarse real value for us all. appreciate your thoughts.
All,
i've had a go at pulling together one of the myth's to get views on how to set them out. i'm thinking probably to add the final full list as a word doc once everyones input has been obtained.
Myth No1
Secret Ingredient
An ingredient is used which delivers the BIR taste. Without the ingredient the taste cannot be obtained. The use of this ingredient by BIR?s is kept secret within the BIR trade.
Observations:
- Keeping such a secret over a long period of time and across many people in the trade would be very difficult to maintain. There are many areas of weakness in protecting such a secret and someone would be bound to spill the beans.
- Very unlikely that one single ingredient would deliver enough of a difference in taste suggesting more than one would be needed making the secret more difficult to maintain
- Despite best efforts by site members trying all sorts of ingredients non have been found individually or collectively to deliver the taste
Typical myth ingredients: to be added ie say Basaar
Conclusion: TRUE Myth
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Now thats got to be without a shadow of doubt,The number 1 myth.
Well said!
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Basaar Masala. It's naff. Some people say it helps achieve that old fashioned taste, but I've tried it every which way and it's plain rubbish! :P
I would like to retract this statement. After combining 1 tsp chilli powder, 1 rounded tsp BE spice mix (with the optional paprika) and 2 rounded tsp Basaar mix, I obtained an absolutely brilliant result. I will be trying this again soon and will report back.
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i've put the 1st draft of the myth doc here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3122.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3122.0)
i guess it's best to keep all the comments in this section. i will then update the doc when they've dried up.
please feel free to chuck in your 2p ideally as a statement that i can simply post straight into the document.
i've added a couple of guidelines at the start of the doc so that it keeps on target to help see the wood from the trees. ie it's aimed at simple presenting what we know or don't know in the doc so that the reader can make an informed decision based on the facts presented
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please feel free to chuck in your 2p ideally as a statement that i can simply post straight into the document.
I've only just noticed this thread and admit I've only read the most recent page.
I suggest the biggest myth is that any of us can be sure we know what we're talking about. Until such time as anyone can produce a true "100%" curry time after time and know what's gone into it, and how it's done, how on earth can we rule anything in or out?
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Until such time as anyone can produce a true "100%" curry time after time and know what's gone into it, and how it's done, how on earth can we rule anything in or out?
A very good point, but I suppose we can say what we've seen/learnt at BIR's.
I have recently been off work and chatted quite a bit with a couple of BIR chefs
Here's a few "cat amongst the pigeons"
You don't need ginger
Powdered or fresh
You don't need a lot of garlic
And this one knocked me sideways.
Some BIR's use a little yeast in their naans.
Hey UB!! You were right all along.
It works out at about two desert spoons in a naan mix for sixty
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Haldi, I've been steadily reducing the amount of ginger in my base, to one third the amount of garlic, I prefer the result!
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Hey Haldi
What about the high output BBQ gas burners?
Do you think they are a myth too?
Regards
Mick
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And this one knocked me sideways.
Some BIR's use a little yeast in their naans.
I knew it! The rise and fluffiness you get from some BIR naans I've never been able to get to with baking powder alone.
Now, if there is a cure for the sourness that yeast introduces....
Maybe its just to use a tiny amount.
-- Josh
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i too have knocked ginger completely on the head in the base (just pureeing the garlic in water as per the BE method)
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Hey Haldi
What about the high output BBQ gas burners?
Do you think they are a myth too?
Regards
Mick
I can't believe I'm saying this
But yes the big flames are a myth.
No noticable difference.
Despite the pan ignites easily, I don't believe it changes the flavour.
These big cookers just reduice the time to do everything.
Nothing more.
I really wish someone would prove me wrong over that
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I can't believe I'm saying this
But yes the big flames are a myth.
No noticable difference.
Despite the pan ignites easily, I don't believe it changes the flavour.
These big cookers just reduice the time to do everything.
Nothing more.
I really wish someone would prove me wrong over that
That's an interesting assertion Haldi :-\
Please would you clarify something for me....
...unless I am mistaken, you said that, using the base from one of your local BIRs and, using their curry recipe, you can make an exact replica of their curry? And I also understand that you think their curries are up there with the best?
If so, please can you confirm whether or not you used your "industrial" cooker to do this and whether or not you have also replicated it using a domestic cooker?
It seems to me that BIRs use large cookers (i.e. high heat output..."lazy" flames or otherwise) to cook small portions (i.e. single portions) in a relatively small pan. I would be suprised if they didn't do this for a very good reason.
It also seems to me that this can only be replicated with a less powerful flame by using smaller portions and smaller pans (I have seen chefs dribble base into a tiny pan on a camping gas stove..and they have the taste and smell). I believe it is all about keeping the heat sufficiently high to fry rather than braise the ingredients.
I certainly get a noticeable difference (i.e. more BIR-like) when using my ring burner (8kW). I'm not saying it is the definitive solution, but it certainly helps in my opinion.
A 2.5kW burner is no more powerful than a bog standard domestic gas cooker Jerry.
Thanks
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And this one knocked me sideways.
Some BIR's use a little yeast in their naans.
I knew it! The rise and fluffiness you get from some BIR naans I've never been able to get to with baking powder alone.
Now, if there is a cure for the sourness that yeast introduces....
Maybe its just to use a tiny amount.
-- Josh
Don't forget the very high heat of a tandoor Josh.
Maybe some BIRs use yeast (I know of some that do and it is, as you say, very noticeable in the sour taste), but many/most don't, in my opinion (have they really got the time to wait for it to prove? I think not generally).
Incidentally, one chef told me he puts bananas in his naans. I chose not to believe him...but I could be wrong I suppose :P
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Great topic as ever this site just rocks. I have been cooking curries for thirty years and eating them for longer from Glasgow BIRs in particularand my cooking took a massive leap forward once I found out about our great forum and stared cooking from here. I will have a go with the Victoria Road one on my next visit back. The smell has in my opinion got lost over the years but apart from all the other credible reasons here it could be down to better extractor fans and regulations regarding them.
Other points, I have repeatedly posted that we can never really taste nor smell our own efforts in real terms due to our nostrils and taste buds adjusting as we cook. You can never smell garlic breath from another if both of you eat it it the same time. I do believe the industrial burners contribute particularly when they allow the pan's ingredients to catch fire with real flames that probably all of us would be scared to recreate in domestic kitchens.
Finally regarding the secret ingredient last year or slightly longer ago we had here a post that caused a big hastle and resulted in many members leaving to join another site run by the guy who posted his belief that the ingredient was an onion paste. I have asked about it on another post and have got the original recipe as a result but not the full thread which is a pity since apart from the controversy there were variations and experimentations that led me to make a batch which was the single most important ingredient in my own efforts.
I have recently asked Stew to reinstate the entire thread but understand if given its history he has decided not to. he suggests I kick off a fresh one so I will do so shortly. keep up the good work and if anyone has a really perfect recipe for recreating Glasgow Pakora can you post it as I have been after it for thirty years.
Cheers Panpot
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Finally regarding the secret ingredient last year or slightly longer ago we had here a post that caused a big hastle and resulted in many members leaving to join another site run by the guy who posted his belief that the ingredient was an onion paste.
Really?
Someone suggested they knew the secret ingredient was onion paste, and a bunch of members left with that person to create another site?
:-\
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...unless I am mistaken, you said that, using the base from one of your local BIRs and, using their curry recipe, you can make an exact replica of their curry? And I also understand that you think their curries are up there with the best?
Yes I made an exact replica with their base
I made it on my big cooker, but on a medium heat
It seems to me that BIRs use large cookers (i.e. high heat output..."lazy" flames or otherwise) to cook small portions (i.e. single portions) in a relatively small pan. I would be suprised if they didn't do this for a very good reason.
That's what I thought
But having watched a bit more recently, I think they are just wastefull
They were making tea in a saucepan,on the stove.
That really doesn't need big flames, but big flames there were, running right up the sides of the pan.
You DO need the big flames for heating large pots of onions though
Other wise you would take forever to cook it
Now this tea!!!
They get a half a pan of water and boil several tea bags
Then they add oodles of sugar and the about same volume of full fat milk as water.
Then they simmer for ten minutes and serve in mugs.
Some of the staff actually add even more sugar
This can not be healthy, but it tastes very good!
It's good to see you posting again CA, this site has missed your enthusiasm
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I believe it is all about keeping the heat sufficiently high to fry rather than braise the ingredients.
i too think this crucial.
i do intend to nail this burner issue. my 2.5kw is what i use all the time now and is much much better than the electric hob. with the "slowboat" cooking technique i run it at full blast all through from start to finish.
however an opportunity has arisen and i expect to replace my new electric hob with a gas hob. the biggest gas hob burner is 2.9kw. so better than the stove. what this will allow is on my next trip to brum a visit to the man who supplies bigger jets for my stove which i think can get me to 7.5kw. timescale for the switch is early Jan 09.
(me too CA - very pleased if your back -i know u've not truly been away but we've missed u - very best wishes)
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Panpot,
having read this post i've realised i have come across the paste. have u made it and if so is it any good as the original post does not really say.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1515.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1515.0)
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Finally regarding the secret ingredient last year or slightly longer ago we had here a post that caused a big hastle and resulted in many members leaving to join another site run by the guy who posted his belief that the ingredient was an onion paste.
Really?
Someone suggested they knew the secret ingredient was onion paste, and a bunch of members left with that person to create another site?
:-\
Hi Josh,
It wasn't quite like that the guy came here with the intention of making money, that we are sure of now. The onion paste was just one of the things that people questioned and this was the excuse to leave and setup another site. The onion paste was actually a recipe this guy had copied from the Natco site, it didn't do anything for me. If you try a search the orignal Natco recipes are still on here and I would be interested to know PanPots thoughts on it.
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It seems to me that BIRs use large cookers (i.e. high heat output..."lazy" flames or otherwise) to cook small portions (i.e. single portions) in a relatively small pan. I would be suprised if they didn't do this for a very good reason.
Funny thing, I was going to come in on this one earlier and say, "oh, well CA used to be a real advocate of the high heat theory and always claimed it was an essential 'technique' to achieveing the real BIR taste", but you beat me to it CA. ;D
Anyway, to answer your statement above, yes, of course there is a very good reason why they use high heat. It's the same reason any restaurant (in general) be it English, French, etc. use high heat. It's so that they can get the meal to the table in double quick time. The fact that the pan in the BIR occasionally flames is purely incidental. I wouldn't say that the Malik BIR is absolutely typical, but watch it for a while, you'll see that the flaming pan scenario is actually quite rare. In fact it seems to scare the BeJesus out of them when it happens most times! ;D And I've seen enough other examples of BIR curries being cooked (on TV) to know that the flaming pan is a by product, and not a necessity.
So is this myth proved or disproved?
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Here is the Natco one:
http://www.natco-online.com/acatalog/Holy_Grail.html
Pretty much a word for word copy was posted here by this Andy guy, I see Jerry has posted the link. I personally didn't think it made a positive difference to equal the time and hassle it takes to make.
This seems to be taking the thread of topic so many a new one on this paste is a good idea.
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Other points, I have repeatedly posted that we can never really taste nor smell our own efforts in real terms due to our nostrils and taste buds adjusting as we cook.
Myth alert...Myth alert!!! ( why haven't we got a siren emoticon ;D )
Sorry, but this just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Now, there is no doubt that your sense of smell takes a beating when cooking spices, but I did an experiment quite a while back now which proves this to be a myth.
Cooked a couple of curries and made sure to inhale as much lovely spicey essence as possible. Meanwhile, had ordered a curry from the local BIR. Long story short, just finish making the curries, BIR delivery arrives, and the minute I opened the door there was the BIR smell, no mistake.
I declare this a myth. Any takers?
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Secret Santa,
the peg effect is a definate myth (100% sure).
this is why i know.
i try to align my TA night's to when i've got base. i make my std madras and tootle off in the car for the real stuff. the starter is then naan bead and madras curry sauce side by side (real and i would have to say imitation - yes very close but still a gap).
i feel in the time going for the curry the smell has well left the kitchen and my nose (i must admit i've not driven with the windows open or my head stuck out but u get the drift).
the peg i'm afraid has no effect.
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the
BeJesus flaming pan
scares u for sure i've only done it once. i used my gas BBQ which is not an ideal burner configuration and ended up tilting the pan too much and the oil vapour pretty much exploded.
i feel i need to get one of those ali pans. i'm currently putting water into the tom puree which allows me to keep the stove on full blast with no burning. if i switch back to toffee smell cooking i'm prone to burning.
i too think "keeping the heat sufficiently high to fry rather than braise the ingredients" is important. with the added water i'm sure i go off fry for a while. the ali pan may just be what i'm missing (to allow less water to be added to the tom puree - mine is very watery c/w maliks).
it's just that high heat should give that hint of smokey. the fact i can't get it still niggles me either way - enough as i said to get a bigger jet for my stove. i can't see any other way to get the hint naturally otherwise.
of further interest to me is the fact that my LB spice mix has just failed to work it's magic for the 1st time and i believe i've got to remove the "smoked paprika" sticking plaster.
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the peg effect is a definate myth (100% sure).
Need to chime in on this one. Don't think this is so much about the BIR smell, as it is about our perception of how good our own work is.
Try it. Make a curry with the peg on. Remove just before eating. I've tried it a few times and I firmly felt the curry was "better" - although not 100% BIR.
So, does the "Peg Effect" explain the missing 5% - no. That's a myth. Does it go part way explaining our objectivity in evaluating our own work? I believe so.
-- Josh
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Yes I made an exact replica with their base
I made it on my big cooker, but on a medium heat
So you haven't actually made an exact replica on a domestic cooker then Haldi?
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Anyway, to answer your statement above, yes, of course there is a very good reason why they use high heat. It's the same reason any restaurant (in general) be it English, French, etc. use high heat. It's so that they can get the meal to the table in double quick time
Flaming aside, isn't that in itself telling you something? The rate of cooking is FAST (due to the high heat output)...for better or for worse! :P
The fact that the pan in the BIR occasionally flames is purely incidental
Have you actually tried this to determine it's effect SS? I think people (I'm not having a go at you here SS) need to try it before commenting upon or dismissing it's effect.
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So you haven't actually made an exact replica on a domestic cooker then Haldi?
No, I haven't but I can see no reason for it not to work.
I didn't use a high heat
I've also had success cooking with a microwave
I think if the base is correct, then nearly all the hard work is done.
I believe the base has a "hidden" magic
That magic happens when it is heated
Cooked a couple of curries and made sure to inhale as much lovely spicey essence as possible. Meanwhile, had ordered a curry from the local BIR. Long story short, just finish making the curries, BIR delivery arrives, and the minute I opened the door there was the BIR smell, no mistake.
I declare this a myth. Any takers?
I don't know about this one.
I stood next to a chef as he cooked me a curry
Before it was cooked chef asked me to taste it.
I thought it was very average and no better than what I make.
When I had brought it home, I tried it again.
This time it had the something extra
Maybe that's exposure to the spices or perhaps it's because it had a little time to mature.
At any rate my perception was faulty
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No, I haven't but I can see no reason for it not to work.
I didn't use a high heat
Are you sure you're not confusing "high heat" with the ferocity of the flames haldi? I'm sure that your cooker, even with "lazy flames", on medium heat, kicks out a hell of a lot more heat than a domestic cooker. I would be far more convinced if you told me that you have also replicated the result using a bog standard domestic cooker
I think if the base is correct, then nearly all the hard work is done.
I believe the base has a "hidden" magic
That magic happens when it is heated
I agree with that assessment Haldi
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Not sure I totally agree with the nostril and taste bud thing but will bow to all yourr communal experience. I hope to get into the kitchens of a popular Glasgow BIR soon and will check out among ather things what happens to my taste buds and sense of smell, flames in pans and other things particularly pastes which I do see going into meals at my local take away with an open kitchen.
I will start the post on the "Secret Ingredient" the infamous onion paste.
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Flaming aside, isn't that in itself telling you something? The rate of cooking is FAST (due to the high heat output)...for better or for worse! :P
But surely your whole argument (as I recall) is that the flaming is an absolute necessity to get at least closer to the BIR flavour? You now seem to be saying that it's the high heat that's the key? I'm confused!
All I was saying was that the high heat used is purely to get the food to the table as fast as possible and not to get the pan to flame. If you are saying that, as an incidental happenstance, that it also gets you that bit closer to the BIR flavour, then we are in agreement.
The fact that the pan in the BIR occasionally flames is purely incidental
Have you actually tried this to determine it's effect SS? I think people (I'm not having a go at you here SS) need to try it before commenting upon or dismissing it's effect.
Umm, yes I have tried it and it scared the bloody life out of me the first time it happened (I had a nice singe on the kitchen floor where I put the pan in a panic), which answers your second question I think. Oh and I didn't find that it added anything to the curry flavour, certainly nothing that would entice me to repeat the operation.
The simple fact is CA that there are enough eye witness accounts, either first hand, or maybe from TV etc. that suggest that the majority of BIRs do not flame their curries unless by accident, or to show off to the camera!
For me the flaming pan is a myth and I'd be interested to hear your counter argument.
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But surely your whole argument (as I recall) is that the flaming is an absolute necessity to get at least closer to the BIR flavour? You now seem to be saying that it's the high heat that's the key? I'm confused!
Yes, either you are confused, or I am SS :P
As I understand it, the assertion in this thread is that the need for "big flames" or "high output flames" is a "TRUE myth (high output burners not required)". I take it that people are referring to the high heat output of the cooker and not to the flaming of the dishes. Maybe I'm wrong? But I don't really think so...I'm just being nice ;)
My counter assertion is that the heat output of the cooker remains a significant difference between BIR and domestic cookers and should not be discounted. It is, in my opinion, a likely contributing factor in producing the BIR taste and smell.
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it's our biggest difficulty "words".
i think we're in pretty much agreement (if not we need to clarify exactly)
we are (or the thread is intended) to discuss burners not flames due to oil.
it's quite clear BIR's use hot real flames to cook on. it's equally clear electric hobs are not upto to the job - i now have a 1.5kw elec hob and a 2.5kw LPG gas stove. i always use the stove even though there is more hassle setting it up. this being down to being sure the stove gets an identical curry closer to BIR than done on the hob.
i am sure the BIR's have the high output to cook the dishes quickly. the evaporation stage for me is crucial in getting towards BIR result and this evap needs high heat to do the job in a reasonable amount of time (for me 5 mins). the 2.5kw does the job on full whack in this time.
what i can't discern is the BIR hint of smokey taste in cooking on the 2.5kw stove. one thing at the bacl of my mind is that i am about to remove the "smoked paprika" sticking plaster from my LB spice mix. on the last cooked curry it did not work for the 1st time "too smokey". i don't know if this was down to a rogue batch of Mix powder, the addition of salt or the better experience at getting the most out of the stove.
the other thing on my mind is the "pan". does the ali pan perform better in avoiding burning of the spices and thereby allowing the high heat to be applied safely (at mo i end up burning - don't think i ever burnt on the hob but the stove is consistent).
in short i think we are agreed that somewhere between 2 and 8 kw lies an optimum for cooking ie evap and spice frying. the only uncertainty being the smokey hint and where that lies along the Kw range. i almost add "if at all" but i don't see where else it could be created.
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it's our biggest difficulty "words".
I beg to differ Jerry. Our biggest difficulty is in reproducing decent BIR curries! Let's not get lost on the words hey! ;)
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CA,
i don't want to get lost in words either (in fact the complete opposite).
what i find difficult is that we can't show or taste one another's efforts.
we have to rely on words - this is our weakest link and needs tolerance as a result. just look at the amount of statute on the law books - all down to someone fixing in word and others interpreting differently.
getting our meaning across to one another via words is not easy. that's all i mean by "words are our biggest challenge".
take taste for example - you manage to set your thoughts out eloquently. is it possible to capture some form of guide or does it already exist
i know this appears at 1st sight not directly about myth's. the objective of the myth's post was to attempt to answer BE's observation on "the wood for the trees". this correctly or incorrectly i've interpreted as difficulty with the written word.
the words were, "It appears from the posts that some people can't see the 'wood for the trees'. It seems to me that there is an issue here" http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3074.msg27201#msg27201 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3074.msg27201#msg27201).
i don't know what other slant i could put on it but very keen to hear all thoughts as it's bugging me. if there is an issue then we collectively need to sort it.
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It is, in my opinion, a likely contributing factor in producing the BIR taste and smell.
The smell comes from little bubbles of curry (coming from the pan) igniting in the big flames going up the side of the pan.
It smells absolutely amazing
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So you haven't actually made an exact replica on a domestic cooker then Haldi?
No, I haven't but I can see no reason for it not to work.
Hi Haldi,
Would there be any chance that you could repeat this "experiment" on your domestic hob (i.e. your domestic hob, versus your commercial hob, versus the restaurant curry) to be sure?
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Haldi,
i too feel there is great importance in this area of bubbles, flames and pan.
my stove does not ignite the bubbles or "spittings". the spittings end up all over my kitchen.
i'd really appreciate knowing if the ignition alone is crucial. i've already seen improvement in taste since using the stove with the flames lapping up around the pan sides and using my chef's spoon.
the question is aimed at: do i need a bigger diameter burner (or smaller pan) to increase the lapping or what CA is suggesting a bigger jet to cause the ignition or change my pan to Ali or a combination of the later 2.
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i know this appears at 1st sight not directly about myth's. the objective of the myth's post was to attempt to answer BE's observation on "the wood for the trees". this correctly or incorrectly i've interpreted as difficulty with the written word.
the words were, "It appears from the posts that some people can't see the 'wood for the trees'. It seems to me that there is an issue here" http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3074.msg27201#msg27201 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3074.msg27201#msg27201).
i don't know what other slant i could put on it but very keen to hear all thoughts as it's bugging me. if there is an issue then we collectively need to sort it.
I agree Jerry, I found Bruce's comments ambiguous too.
I took Bruce's "wood for the trees" comment to mean that the BIR cooking basics (the wood) are all on this forum (i.e. curry bases, spice mixes, curry recipes, methods, restaurant observations, etc, etc) but that they are largely obscured by lots of chatter on details (the trees) which may not be particularly relevant to reproducing BIR curries at home?
I also took it that Bruce meant that "attaining the last 5%" is "the issue" for members of this forum...but I could be totally wrong (he may have meant that he believes it is not the issue at all!)?
Hopefully Bruce will clarify his comments when he next posts.
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CA,
many thanks for putting my mind at rest.
i'm sold on your interpretation which gives me confidence that we are aligned with BE's thought's. the myth's will hopefully help towards removing the "chatter" and where that's not possible making a comprehensive case so that members can take an informed judgement.
very much looking fwd to BE's further involvement particularly given the suggestion of helping on some dishes.
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do i need a bigger diameter burner (or smaller pan) to increase the lapping or what CA is suggesting a bigger jet to cause the ignition or change my pan to Ali or a combination of the later 2.
A combination would obviously be better but you can make it flame when using a small gas output. Use a shallow sided frying pan and tip it into the burner to encourage it to catch fire. I agree it does give off an amazing smell.
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chinois,
my post may not have been clear enough. i certainly don't won't to flame the pan - done it once and never again. my local BIR never flame either.
what i though was being suggested was a sort of sparkler effect around the perimeter of the pan top edge (not visible except if it was dark). this causing a better tasting debris to fix itself to the inside rim of the pan. this being what the chef spoon cleans off as it is scraped around the rim. for me this has the added attraction that it could potentially reduce the amount of spitting i currently get (which is a lot).
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chinois,
my post may not have been clear enough. i certainly don't won't to flame the pan - done it once and never again. my local BIR never flame either.
what i though was being suggested was a sort of sparkler effect around the perimeter of the pan top edge (not visible except if it was dark). this causing a better tasting debris to fix itself to the inside rim of the pan. this being what the chef spoon cleans off as it is scraped around the rim. for me this has the added attraction that it could potentially reduce the amount of spitting i currently get (which is a lot).
Ah, i see, your post was pretty clear!
I agree with the principal of what you mention about reduction and debris. I noticed that in the kitchen i used to work in (not a BIR) the dishes where that occured had deeper taste. I try and get that effect when cooking pasta sauces and curries. My hob isnt strong enough to ignite the bubbles or reduce it as quick as a restaurant though.
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Chinois,
no probs. sorry looking at it again now - the word "debris" does not really describe it. debris suggests it's not good when in fact i think it is important and definitely good. i'll call it deposit. i can't think of a better word.
i can't work out if the taste of the deposit is caused by evaporation (like as u say when cooking pasta sauce), the heat at the surface of the pan due to the gas flames or some form of ignition.
next time i cook i'll turn the lights out to see if i can see better what's happening. i may be only getting a partial effect (as CA is suggesting) down to my 2.5kw stove where as an 8kw might just deliver a difference.
for info i 1st became alerted by the build up of a sort of caramelised oil "deposit" on my pan handle and having tasted it found it to be very sweet. hence i bought my chef spoon.
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the question is aimed at: do i need a bigger diameter burner (or smaller pan) to increase the lapping or what CA is suggesting a bigger jet to cause the ignition or change my pan to Ali or a combination of the later 2.
From all the bits of BIR cooking I've seen this is what is needed (in general):
1. Large spread of flame that covers the whole pan
2. Aluminium pan (or any pan that has very good heat conductivity)
3. Never letting the sauce burn or catch on the sides of the pan (hence the circular motion with the chef's spoon around the sides of the pan)
4. Reduction of the curry to a finished consistency by 3, 4 or 5 minutes of high heat.
What is not needed (unless you want to impress the people who might be watching you cook):
1. Flaming of the pan/curry (sorry CA, the evidence is squarely against it)
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I agree Jerry, I found Bruce's comments ambiguous too.
As most members will know I'm not usually backwards in coming forwards, but I think I've let this one slide for long enough now.
I made Bruce's base (if it really is Bruce, or is it sacrilege to even mention that?) and I found it woefully lacking in all respects. Perhaps I am expecting too much, but it failed to produce anything different and certainly not better than anything we already have on this forum.
I found his comments, observations, and suggestions both naiive and condescending.
The original Bruce curry recipes, as posted by Haldi, at the foundation of this forum were a godsend and led on to many new techniques and so on ( by way of discussion of his article), but this latest monologue is just inane witterings as far as I can see.
Why does he feel the need to dip in and out every 3 months?
Why no feedback?
Why is it that we listen to the newest members on the forum bigging up his efforts when they are newbies to the BIR method?
Blowed if I know ;D
It's all good fun to me but this 'Bruce' hasn't moved the BIR goal on one bit as far as I'm concerned.
So there you go. An honest opinion from someone who speaks their mind.
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It's all good fun to me but this 'Bruce' hasn't moved the BIR goal on one bit as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure many of us would agree that it's certainly not the answer we've all been looking for.
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Secret Santa,
your teasing us!
i do carry out steps 1 to 4 as u suggest and they are critical - essential i would say.
for me BE was targeting the less experienced members in his posts. your comments clearly hold water. i hope in the next post he covers recipes as intimated as this would engage better with the more experienced members.
clearly u know your stuff. what i can't understand is u feel you're at 80%. i do feel we need a new post to capture your thoughts - i can't just put my finger on it - "best practise" is the best i can offer. there must be some learning here for sure.
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Bir Myth number 1001...
Bir Cook books ;)
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Your spot on Graeme they just don't exist, The Curry Secret comes close but still way of the mark in my opinion.
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It's not just BIR cook books. i've found very few cook books deliver restaurant taste. in fact i feel i would be pushed to recommend a single cook book (not that i have that many but i've frequented the library shelf for years without any real benefit).
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Bir Myth number 1001...
Bir Cook books ;)
Hehe! Ain't it the truth. Oh and I would move that myth all the way up to number 1, where it belongs.
UB, I think you'd be better served by just providing them with a suitable list of links to this site's wares, that's as close as you're going to get to a half way decent BIR 'book'!
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Your spot on Graeme they just don't exist, The Curry Secret comes close but still way of the mark in my opinion.
Actually the KD suggestion isn't a bad idea UB. Just tell them that wherever the recipe calls for garam masala, use some rajah mild madras instead in the same quantity. This produces a much better result, but of course, is still a little way off the BIR ideal.
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just to increase focus on the aim of the "myth" post.
it's aim is not to upset anyone. it's to enable all to see the wood from the trees better by setting out the case for each so that member's can take an informed judgement.
my hope is that it will set some common basic's for us all and possibly highlight potential gaps as to why we've not delivered this restaurant taste in the main across the site's recipes or for it's members.
I only just found the myths document and the related discussion thread. As your best guesses, hunches or whatever on possible myths I think it's fine but the document sort of reads like a done deal - ingredients and approaches which can definitely be written off. I think that's dangerous, especially if quite a few people believe there's still a missing 5%; that we're not quite there. Until most people agree it's all cracked; job done, how can we know the myths with much confidence? We can't!
I wish there was more emphasis on tried and tested recipes (i.e. on what works for sure) rather than lists of what doesn't work (e.g. ingredients in isolation) and long lists of work in progress, interim reports, minute by minute diaries, etc. e.g. we can't say whether it's best to brown the onions as a generalisation or whether almond powder should ever be used. It all depends on the specific recipe.
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George,
the output was put in the
"Beginners Guide, Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions" section as a helping hand to get people up and going quickly.http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3208.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3208.0)
i agree with all u say.
in terms of the last 5% this is a subject which troubles me "and a few others". the trouble i feel it does not seem to generate much interest.
i hope u don't mind but i'll use u're info to start a new post - much in hope i would add.