Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: kid curry on October 14, 2008, 02:24 PM
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I was in my local restaurant kitchen last night,What an experience!
Been going there for over 15yrs but until i found this amazing site over a month ago,Ive never thought abt asking to get in their kitchen.
Anyway it was amazing and when i came out i realized how much goes into the making of my curry.I was even a bit disappointed to how far i think iam from getting it right.Just when i thought m base was just right.
I'm going again tonight so i,ll try to remember everything and get back to you 2morro!!
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Been going there for over 15yrs but until i found this amazing site over a month ago,Ive never thought abt asking to get in their kitchen.
Yes I know what you mean. At my curry eating peak I knew every waiter, in every restaurant, within a couple of miles of my house. Yet it never dawned on me to ask to see my curry cooked. What a wasted opportunity!
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Fantastic opportunity, looking forward to hearing how you get on.
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Yeah great stuff, if you can take lot's of notes as you are bound to forget something ;)
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Well done, very brave
for me don't ask too many detailed questions - leave it short so the welcome remains for another occasion ie pick your biggies
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Amazing,What can i say!!
Last night was my second night i was there for about 1hr so much to take in.And when the chef said i should have brought a video camera i could not believe how enccomadating, and friendly, and how much they wanted to show me.They also should me their way of making the madras with no base!
I'm making the base right now,with their spice mix which they gave me in a large curry carton.Also a carton of their fresh garlic and ginger mix.
When i have finished i will report with all the ingredients for the base and the mix,fingers crossed .:)
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Amazing,What can i say!!
Last night was my second night i was there for about 1hr so much to take in.And when the chef said i should have brought a video camera i could not believe how enccomadating, and friendly, and how much they wanted to show me.They also should me their way of making the madras with no base!
I'm making the base right now,with their spice mix which they gave me in a large curry carton.Also a carton of their fresh garlic and ginger mix.
When i have finished i will report with all the ingredients for the base and the mix,fingers crossed .:)
Nice, well done, would love to do this myself one day, look forward to hearing more. So have you been in the kitchen two nights running.
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First night was a bit quick they were very busy,But last night went at 17.00 so they could spend a bit more time showing me.As with base because the volume is drastically reduced they wrote down what they thought would componsate this!
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They also should me their way of making the madras with no base!
Hi kc
I'd like to see the recipe for that if you can remember it please.
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They also should me their way of making the madras with no base!
OK!
First take a medium onion a grate
2 large clove garlic grated
1 piece of ginger grated (about same amount as garlic)
1/4 tsp salt
1 tsp spice mix
1/2 tsp chilli powder
1/3 of a chefs spoon puree
1 chefs spoon veg oil
1 restaurant metal curry bowl of water 1/2 full
1 fillet chicken
fry oil with garlic and ginger stirring constantly 2Min's
add onion and salt fry 5 Min's(slowly)
add spices fry a little then add puree,fry some more.
add raw chicken,fry for 1 min
Then add water
Cook on low/medium till chicken is cooked
Garnish with fresh coriander a 2 quarters of fresh tomato
The use of lemon was not preferred by the chef!
I hope i haven't forgot anything,i will tell you the spice mix later,but i suppose you all have your favs! :)
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Actually all the measurments where chefs spoons! :)
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Do they just use this method for the Madras only, I take it you've had this Madras, is it good. Even though it sounds straight forward to make it seems like quite a long cooking time for a restaurant. Do you have the base recipe that was written down.
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They dont do this in the resturant.The point he said was you can make a curry without a base.
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They dont do this in the resturant.The point he said was you can make a curry without a base.
Ok thanks, that makes total sense and was thinking about that, I will try this when I fancy making a quick curry with no base to hand.
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They also should me their way of making the madras with no base!
Do you know if this is what anyone who orders a Madras there will get? Or was it a 'special' recipe, not normally served to customers?
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Basically the chef said without using the base it tastes 100% better than with base because its (fresh)!I can only repeat what he said!I,m cooking the base as we speak.But like he said they have to cook to our tastes,(BIR).
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1/3 of a chefs spoon puree
Hi KC,
Great work getting into the kitchen there! Is this tomato puree - I plan to try this very soon as it sounds like it could well be like a curry I get from a take away in Kinross - oddly enough it does take them quite a while to make and they don't sell many curries, so this method could be ideal for them.
Can you send me the spice mix please, so that I can get this recipe 100 percent correct!
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One thing the chef said which is exactly what is happenning right now with the base is ,simmer, simmer, simmer,my base 45Min's boiling,2hrs still simmering gone from yellow when liquidised and getting darker with a thin and i repeat thin layer of oil :)
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The puree was mixed with a little water,i mentioned the puree,he said as long as its of double concentrate it will be ok.He mentioned napoli?because the tin and make they use come in to large tins.
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So sorry but the madras with no base, they always garnish with chopped spring onions!Sorry but i keep remembering little things. ::)
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Where should i post the spice mix?
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I would guess just keep putting all your findings etc in this thread.
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Kid curry,
like everyone else this is fascinating stuff and madras the fav of a lot of members.
please post the spice mix in the thread for now (can be made into it's own post later).
pls re think whether all the measurements are in chef spoon (mine is 4 tbsp so on my spoon there would be 4 tbsp of spice mix in the madras c/w 2 tsp that i use normally for a std 200ml portion).
keep going. Brill
ps I like the chef - no lemon for me too
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So do you know what's in the spice mix then?
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Sorry it's late guys, but football called last night!!
Yes, it was definitely a chef's spoon. As for the mix, here goes:
Kid Curry's spice mix!
equal measurements of:
cumin,
coriander,
tarmarind,
curry powder
Like they said, one of the most important parts, is not to cut corners using garlic paste or ginger paste. You must always blend your own!
Like I've said in earlier posts, I've tried to remember everything but I'm sure if you ask the questions, I'll (maybe) remember something I've forgot!
Do you want me to post the base here and then you can move it? :)
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Tamarind? Are you sure? Not turmeric?
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Kid curry,
i would put the base here for now so it's all together.
tamarind is certainly different - presume it's the black liquid concentrate. i would add it separately to the powders and guess that's what they do.
will certainly give the madras a go over the weekend.
Many thanks once again KC.
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Sorry! sorry! sorry!
Tumeric not tarmarind :-[
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Kid Curry's Restaurant Base.
6 large onions,
1 large carrot,
1/2 green pepper, (because of strong taste)
1 stick of celery
5 cloves of garlic,
1 inch square piece of fresh ginger,
200 mls of vegetable oil,
1 heaped tbspn of spice mix,
1/4 tbspn of chilli powder,
1 heaped tspn of salt,
fresh tomatoes, equivalent to one small tin,
Water - 1 ltr to 1.5 ltrs of water.
Roughly chop everything up. Place into cooking pot with oil, spice mix, chili and salt. Fill pot with water level to the ingredients. Boil for around 45 minutes then liquidise.
The colour should look yellowish.
Now simmer, uncovered until the colour turns darker, adding the rest of the water as you go along. Remember you can add, but you can't take away.
After around 2 hours the base will turn a darker colour with a thin layer of oil on top. Basically the longer you simmer the better the taste (apparently).
;D
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KC,
i'll give this a go this weekend. I like the spec other than missing coriander stalks which I feel to be a must in a base.
the 1st thing that hits me though is that this spec is not that different to what i've made before and can't see it closing the last 5%.
there are some interesting features though that i have on my list to check out:
1) i'd recently ditched using green or red pepper in base
2) the carrot proportion is probably higher than what i've been using (looks like 15% of the onion c/w 12% my spec)
3) i tried celery a while ago (ronnoc's base) and although not a fan thought in the right proportion it may just have it's place
i'll compare the base against my current norm - so should be interesting.
i'll try and make the no base madras if i can get to it.
i?m sure this comparison will finally convince me that the last 5% lies elsewhere ie not in the base.
very much appreciate your efforts and enthusiasm which we all share.
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The base sounds similar to the Rajver base i've been making for some time now,apart from the addition of garlic and ginger, I always chuck in a stick of celery for good luck too.
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RobinB,
i know the rajver well - did u try it without the celery ie u must feel it makes a significant difference.
i do add garlic though - it's only ginger that i leave out.
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This is another base recipe which is almost exactly the same as what i was shown a few years ago, recipe is still on here somewhere. The only difference is the celery and 1\4 tsp of chili, also the spice mix doesn't have curry powder in it. The chef I spoke to even said green pepper, but not much because of the strong taste ;)
Here it is:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=179.0
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This is another base recipe which is almost exactly the same as what i was shown a few years ago,
Yes it certainly looks familiar
I guess it just shows that we are doing things right
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KC,
Made the base and no surprises for me. It's spot on and up their with the best on the site.
I need to cook with it now to make further comment.
The spec for info was: oil 200ml, onion 1200g, fresh tomato 200g, carrot 140g, green pepper 80g, celery 50g, garlic & ginger 30g each (pureed in water) salt & spices as spec, chilli 1/2 tsp, 2.7L after blending and 2.75L at completion.
Pics
Ingredients
After blending - the KC is on RHS in the bigger pan
Complete - KC on RHS
Observations:
1) felt the 1 stick of celery to be too much at 100g so reduced to 50g. the celery taste was present and perhaps could do with a little less to bring into balance more with the rest of the veg
2) the 200g of toms was fine but probably far more than a BIR could afford to use. I'd reduce to say 100g or swap it with tom puree.
3) The amount of spice seemed low and the chilli too high
4) The method of cooking was different (1 hr, blend, 2hrs) c/w my norm (2 hr, blend, 1hr). I felt the scum did not surface as quickly suggesting BIR's don't remove the scum (get's mixed in with the oil)
5) The fresh coriander stalk was not missed
Conclusions:
The cooking method and celery make this different to my norm.
the small amount of celery needed is difficult to justify on cost in relation to the other ingredients (90% of the bunch not used). It does add a something to the base though - I need to cook to assess if it's worth it.
The end point of the cooking process was no different to my norm method but scum removal is more difficult (if it's actually needed).
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madras no base - had an interesting time this morning.
pics:
1) ingredients
2) finished curry
made to spec except i reduced the spice mix from 1 chef spoon (4 tbsp for me) to 4 tsp (1.3 tbsp).
i made 3 off more curries as follows:
1) puree garlic/ginger/onion and cook as a paste
2) used 2 tsp DD spice mix
3) used 2 tsp LB spice mix
observations:
1) the finished curry was too lumpy for me - i put it through the blender after cooking but a lot of phaffing.
2) immediately after cooking it tasted too salty. this taste changed as the curry was left for a while and felt i'd tasted it in a restaurant before
3) the DD & LB curries did not taste good (think too little spice mix)
4) using a garlic/ginger/onion paste was a disaster (onion did not cook out)
5) the amount of effort was not that much more than with using a base
6) the frying stage needed the 4 tbsp of oil but this ended up as too much oil in the finished dish (i found i could recycle excess into the next curry)
conclusions:
1) cooking a no base needs more spice mix - the usual 2 tsp per 200ml portion is not enough. whether 4 tbsp ie chef spoon would be too much - i don't know but think so
2) salt & leaving a curry after being cooked has something to do with the BIR taste
really good stuff KC - many thanks - much appreciated the info and particularly enjoyed making the no base madras's.
looking fwd to cooking with the base now and will try and work on the salt/standing factor.
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the small amount of celery needed is difficult to justify on cost in relation to the other ingredients (90% of the bunch not used). It does add a something to the base though - I need to cook to assess if it's worth it.
I suggest that's the price we need to pay if we want to match what they do in a busy BIR kitchen. BIRs will make a much larger batch of base sauce. Somebody - I wonder who - scaled down this base sauce recipe before it reached this forum. For a normal batch of BIR base sauce, they might use half a bunch of celery, and the other half the following day, so it's totally cost-effective. If we have to throw away 90%, then tough! But do we really need to throw away 90%? The surplus celery could be lightly fried/simmered or whatever and then kept in the freezer.
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Jerry hope i haven't kept you to busy.
As with the base the colours look prefect from start to finish.The reason he said so long to simmer is the geeting the taste just right.
As with the madras no base having grated the onion fine he said that it should cook its self out so it wont be pulpy.But i tried this last week a few times and it is definitely trial and error.But very good when you get it right.
The base option for me, and all of us, is the best i think.But when you have mastered it with no base its a bit of a show piece i think showing others how quick and simple and tasty it is,and quite impressive.
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Hey Kid Curry. I tried the Madras with no base and didn't like it atall. It smells really good but is kind of sour / bitter. I agree with Jerry in saying the onions didn't cook out. From the pictures, I obviously grated my ingredients more finely.
Thanks very much for the recipe though, I had a good laugh (and a serious cry - you try grating an onion and you'll know what I'm talking about) ;D
Here it is.
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LOL,
I'm crying with you Bobby ;D
PS the end result doesn't look that bad.
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KC,
cooking went very well last night with the base. i did not close the last 5%. it did give some food for thought.
the curries using the KC base and KC spice mix were as good as i make. i could not detect the celery so i'm afraid it's not on my base "essential's" list.
i made 4 off madras curry sauces. pic is your base and your spice mix
1) using LB spice mix & KC base
2) using KC spice mix & KC base
3) using KC spice mix & CRO2 base
4) using Basaar spice mix & KC base
madras sauce spec: 2 tbsp reclaim oil, 1 tbsp garlic/ginger paste (4:1), 2 tbsp tom puree in water, 2 tsp spice mix, 300ml base to produce 200ml finished sauce.
Observations:
1) i don' know if 2tsp of spice mix is enough for the KC spice. i used 4 tsp in the no base madras and felt this had better taste (but lumpy onion - previous comments).
2) i added 1/4 tsp of salt to Basaar curry and it tasted much better (more like BIR).
3) the CR02 base had slight edge due to the fragrant spice (but down to personal preference)
Conclusions:
1) this has confirmed to me an existing belief - once a base exceeds a certain threshold then it has no further part in delivering the last 5%. this base clearly exceeds the threshold by far.
2) salt seems to have a bigger impact on the delivering the BIR taste than i would have thought and i need to work on this.
3) i'm no longer sure how much spice is needed in a 1 portion 200ml curry. to press i've used 2 tsp. 3 or even 4 may be better.
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That sauce looks great! ;D
Now all you need are some toast soldiers! 8)
(does anyone else do that?)
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Your exactly right, the chef said the amount of salt is a big factor in the taste.
Do you think i should be adding fresh corriander in the base?
Jerry what spice mix would you use with the base?
Should i post my mix and base in the right places or will someone move them?
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That sauce looks great! ;D
Sure does...that is the kind of consistency I love from a BIR Bhunna.
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i'm now pretty sure that not only does the salt play a part but it's essential to leave the cooked curry for a few mins before eating - the taste changes and i'm convinced it's something to do with the salt (i'm using 1/4 tsp per 200ml potion).
up until this weekend i'd have said yes to the fresh coriander. the rajver base got me into using the coriander stalk (i chop the leaves and put in the freezer and use from frozen after the base has gone in at the curry frying stage). i'd even started putting it into the saffron. i now don't think it's a big factor.
best spice mix i used with the KC base is DD's (Derek Dansak's). i've tried BE, LB and Basaar. funny though i don't know if i've got a rogue batch of the LB but the smoked paprika is overpowering at the mo and thinking of removing it. up until recent it's been spot on. i also like the kushi spice mix but had none made to try (it's spot on in Admin's Jalfrezi).
Yes i would post in the right places - create new posts - they deserve etching in stone.
bases: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?board=2.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?board=2.0)
spice mixes: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?board=28.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?board=28.0)
i'm still left pondering where the last 5% is though. i'm beginning to think it does not exist in reality only in my mind.
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i'm now pretty sure that not only does the salt play a part but it's essential to leave the cooked curry for a few mins before eating - the taste changes and i'm convinced it's something to do with the salt (i'm using 1/4 tsp per 200ml potion).
Hmmm! This is entering into twighlight zone territory.
I doubt that a curry made at a BIR will taste any different form the time it leaves the pan to, what, an hour after?
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but the smoked paprika is overpowering at the mo and thinking of removing it. up until recent it's been spot on.
I'd be willing to bet that the average high street BIR wouldn't know smoked paprika if it got up and did a pole dance infront of them! As an experimental home spice, fine, but as a regular BIR ingredient, NO! ;D
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Secret Santa,
i know i had to pinch myself. i've not put salt in at the frying stage really before. so maybe others banked the difference before noticing. the taste changes within 5 mins - it sort of more fully blends the spices together and thickens the sauce. in a nutshell the sauce becomes more rounded.
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Secret Santa,
agree totally on the smoked paprika - i put it in initially as a fix to get a smokier curry - either i've botched on the last batch and put too much in or my curries don't need it anymore. i'm hopeful of the latter.
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cant believe you posted this jerry
i just cooked a madras using currytasters base which i think is awesome
also using BE mix powder
only for some reason i put the salt in the frying stage just after i fried off some onion ginger and garlic
what a difference
i would say it certainly closes up on at least some of this elusive 5%
Mark
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Jerry/SS, what's the conclusion here on salt?
I usually put a pinch in with the spices at frying time.
Are you saying that MORE salt needs to be added, or that it needs to be added at the END of the curry stage?
-- Josh
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Hi Josh
i added a good teaspoon full during the frying stage before adding any other spices and it worked a treat
Mark
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Really? A whole teaspoon, and you add it to the oil, tom puree, garlic/ginger (before the spices)?
I would have thought that much salt would give a salty curry with 250/300ml of base.
Anyone else use this much?
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hi josh
no i added before the tom puree
as for the amount it seems to balance out for a 2 portion serving
Mark
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Josh/Billycat,
salt is the one thing i struggle with on health grounds and so in past i've put salt into the base and tasted it and felt it was seasoned fine. the LB spice mix has some salt in it but not that much. unless a recipe specifically says to add salt at frying stage then i don't.
with KC's no base madras i was switched on to the measurements following the instruction that they were in chef's spoons. 1/4 tsp therefore translated into 1 tbsp of salt. i thought this too much so went for 1 tsp. when i'd finished cooking it tasted awful (too much salt) but after a few minutes the taste changed very close to BIR. i put this down to the salt.
over the last couple of nights i've used an actual 1/4 tsp per 200ml finished portion. i think this is the min and would probably agree it should be nearer Billycat's 1/2 tsp per portion. i'm adding it with the spices. it's a significant factor for me.
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I've been reading through this thread all morning now and very intrigued and fancied giving it a go. I'm a bit puzzled by what the spice mix contains. You say its equal measurements of 3 ingredients then 1 heaped tablespoon of spice mix but would you just make enough for 1 heaped tablespoon? Thats what I'm guessing anyway.
And will try the salt trick :) Thanks
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Hi Bod68,
The idea is that you can make as much as you like as long as you measure the same out for each, so 3 teaspoon's or 3 tablespoons of each it doesn't matter. I would make a larger batch so that you have enough for a few curry's as you will use it quite often.
It looks like this one is equal measurements of:
cumin,
coriander,
turmeric,
curry powder
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Hi Jerry
This is how i cooked my madras sauce
5 tablespoons of oil
Half an onion chopped finely
4 cloves of garlic crushed and chopped
teaspoon grated ginger
one and a half tablespoons of tomato puree
teaspoon salt
5 teaspoons BE spice mix
one and a half teaspoons of hot chilli powder
5 ladles of currytasters base
chopped coriander
heat oil to high
throw in onion,soften and colour the edges
now garlic and cook out the rawness
next ginger only for a few seconds cos its grated
then salt fry for a few more seconds
add the BE spice mix and chilli powder and cook the spices
then add tomato puree and cook till you have a paste of such in your pan
keeping pan quite hot add a couple of ladles of base , cook out the water in base then add meat of your choice then add your final 3 ladles and cook down to the consistancy you like
add a teaspoon or so of chopped coriander and serve
and i tell you what you will go a long way to better it
Mark
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As of the madras no base!
Lets try to put this into perspective, grate a your onion till you know that its enough (not over the the top so it will never reduce to almost nothing in 5mins)
Everything that was used was a chefs spoon,and where the salt is concerned,if you take a chefs spoon and put into a big bowl of salt bring it out and 1/4 of the spoon from the left side to the top and bottom is full,For one madras seems excessive then it is but if you didn't see this amount put in I'm convinced it would not be an issue. :)
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I'm sure the high amount of salt is correct KC, for me an excessive amount of salt is key to getting the BIR taste.
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billycat,
i like the list of ingredients but some things seem higher than what i normally use ie 5 tsp of BE mix and 5 ladles (for me this would be 750ml of base ie 150ml x 5). what is the volume of the finished curry. i ask as i aim for 200ml finished and normally use 2 tsp of mix and 2 ladles of base.
either u are using a much thinner base or making a bigger portion. would appreciate knowing which as i've just (from this post) started to mess around with the mix qty having tried 2 (monday night), 3 (tuesday night) & 4 tsp (no base madras) per 200ml finished but i'm not sure now which is best.
You?re doing well on the chilli front at 1.5 tsp - I struggle above ? tsp. ;D
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Jerry
sorry mate maybe i should be more specific
this recipe feeds me and my good lady so its a double portion
but seriously jerry just try it
as for the chilli i find the rajah blend far far too fiery so i use schwartz hot chilli powder which seems a bit more refined and rajah for all my other spices
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KC,
believe me i very much liked the taste of the no base madras - it's my kind of curry - it's the phaffing and the lumpy onion i can't easily resolve (my grater is too coarse or never never on time and the blended does not cook out).
on the salt i'm keen to get the same picture of what u saw - hence the photo of my chef spoon. i've followed the instructions and the spoon actually contains 3 tsp. how does it compare.
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thanks billycat.
the double portion sits fine now. i would use 600ml of base c/w with your 750 so not a million miles away. the spec is pretty much my std recipe too. i don't tend to put the onion in though and sometimes make garlic/ginger paste but often i just use finely chopped garlic (1 tbsp). i sometimes add the coriander early after the base has gone in and now and again a splash of worcester sauce.
i know what u mean on the chilli powder - i bought a 400g of natco without realising what it said on the packet, "is the essential base for vindaloo dishes adding considerable heat and flavour. there're not wrong.
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my thoughts are it is important to fry the salt with onion if used and garlic/ginger
before anything else is added
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Billycat,
many thanks - i'll try that little nugget out. i'd so far only added with the spice mix.
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hi guys
when i had my vindaloo demo at rajver he added the garlic till it floated (sizzled) chilli,mixed spices , dippped the spoon in the salt so it just covered the area that had been touch by the oil so a chefs pinch ie four fingers grouped together, then the tom puree. hope this confuses the hell out of you all ;D
regards
gary
ps that was for 1 portion so probabaly 200-250ml of finished sauce
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thanks gary,
clearly all we know is salt is important and no salt is no good. i intend to try out a range to try and get an optimum - i'll try the spoon dipping though for sure 1st.
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As of the missing 5%!
Just a thought but if you made one of your "BEST CURRYS"and served this to a member of the public as if it came from your local restaurant or takeaway(i mean without them knowing you have cooked it)do you think they would say "that curry was gorgeous 2nite".Or "that wasn't cooked by a pro".
So the point is,is the missing 5% just in our heads cause we all think it when weve cooked it,and we say"Mmmm it was nice but its still missing something" :(
Just a thought!!!!!!!! ;)
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As of the missing 5%!
Just a thought but if you made one of your "BEST CURRYS"and served this to a member of the public as if it came from your local restaurant or takeaway(i mean without them knowing you have cooked it)do you think they would say "that curry was gorgeous 2nite".Or "that wasn't cooked by a pro".
So the point is,is the missing 5% just in our heads cause we all think it when weve cooked it,and we say"Mmmm it was nice but its still missing something" :(
Just a thought!!!!!!!! ;)
Hahaha, you're in troble now!!! ;D Once suggested something similar myself. Some of our more experienced members strongly disagree.
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for me an excessive amount of salt is key to getting the BIR taste.
Well I agree and disagree. When I make a curry I always add some salt to it. When I eat it it seems well seasioned, i.e. not over the top salty. But bloody hell, the next day when I taste it cold, HOW MUCH SALT?!
This is something I never found with old style curries, they weren't over salted and the next day, reheated or eaten cold they tasted the same, i.e. not salty.
This is another example of why the 'modern' BIR curry is so third rate!
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as for the chilli i find the rajah blend far far too fiery so i use schwartz hot chilli powder which seems a bit more refined and rajah for all my other spices
Hi Billlycat
This is pure speculation on my part as I don't know the answer, but do you really think BIRs use Schwarz curry powder? I mean when all the shops sell East End, Rajah, etc. , they are going to use Schwarz?
The whole ethos of this forum is to replicate BIR curries, so while your inclination may be towards the use of Schwarz curry powder, does it really matter when the BIRs are not using it (I assume!)?
In other words shouldn't you be using what the BIRs use?
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Likke i said(HIDING UNDER THE QUILT)it was just a thought! ;)
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KC,
i with you on this one - i'm beginning to think it is in our mind to a large extent. the only missing part for me is getting the individual recipes right and a consistent technique. The rest is just tinkering.
take admins jalfrezi - this i cook often and i produce a BIR result no messing. CK's CTM i do the same. the trouble is my fav is madras curry sauce and derivatives - i just can't get this quite how i want it - it's very close all the same and as u say friends and family taster?s can't see what the fuss is all about given the standard being produce from this site.
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Sorry kid curry, I really didn't mean it that way. However I do get frustrated when suggestions about ingredients are made that just don't agree with the things we know not to be true, in general.
For example, in this case, are the BIRs going to buy the trade packs of the best known spices, Rajah, TRS, East end, etc., or are they going to go with an overpriced supermarket brand like Schwarz?
If we are serious about copying BIR curries then we need to be serious about using what they use, and relegate all other ingredients to the 'nice to experiment with but ultimately useless' pile.
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i tried the parker21 trick of sticking my chef spoon into the salt (when it had oil on). it's not as easy to judge as u think and found i could pretty much end up with any amount of salt i wanted to get.
in the end after a lot of prodding i felt i had what felt like the right amount - it turned out to be 1 tsp.
i then put this into the cooking of 1 portion of curry sauce. disaster and not a disaster. the same taste change in the 1st 5 mins happened again. when i 1st tasted at it left the pan was far too salty. after the 5 mins or so it had become far more rounded and much more like BIR.
the trouble is i'm not sure i can handle it and ended up making the next with 1/4 tsp and the next with no salt. i think the 1/4 tsp is about right for me for a 200ml finished portion.
the trouble is i did not have a very good night with all 4 off curries being well below par - i'd been trying out bhuna derivatives (never again - it's well off my palette).
I did not get chance to put the salt in early like Billycat suggested which I?d wanted to try but got bogged down on the disasters front.
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i'm beginning to think it is in our mind to a large extent.
You keep thinking that Jerry. Meanwhile, me, and the other old timers will recall with great fondness the aromatic, deep, savoury flavour, of the pre 1990ish curries and sit back with a sad look on our faces as we hear you wax enthusiastic about the third rate curries that are dished out today, and that you are trying to emulate.
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I DIDNT SAY I USED SCHWARTZ CURRY POWDER SS IF YOU CARE TO READ
I SAID I USED SCHWARTZ CHILLI POWDER
AS I FIND RAJAH CHILLI TOO FIREY
PERSONEL TASTE ...IS THAT OK
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PERSONEL TASTE ...IS THAT OK
Of course billycat..oh and all caps is considered shouting..but I guess you knew that already. ;D
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Guys guys!
C'mon wheres the love in the house,i think we are all getting a bit side tracked,I'm starting to wish i never went to the restaurant kitchen.
Lets get back on track and get our curry cooking :)
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KC,
don't be put off - this is a fantastic post.
schwartz is clearly a myth and so is the pre 90's or whatever era. i will add them to the myth list so we can have a bit more hopefully constructive discussion.
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Ive often thought this about the 90s era,Especially when you still see alto of the old chefs still working or owning the restaurants! :)
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Yep for sure!
my fav restaurant started in 1972. the owner and chef are still working. yes the curry has been adapted slightly over time but it's not inferior in any way. the seats are more plush and the wall paper has gone. his smile remains and the same fantastic night out can be had.
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Exactly.
Jerry what is your recipie for your madras?
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i added a good teaspoon full during the frying stage before adding any other spices and it worked a treat
Hi Mark,
I'm intrigued as to why a number of people (and BIRs allegedly) fry salt? It won't melt (it's got a very high melting point). It won't dissolve in oil (it's ionic). So precisely what is frying it supposed to be doing to it please? :-\
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Hey Jerry M
I think you should add Outdoor Gas burner to the Myth List. BTW I use 1/2 tsp salt for my bhunas
Mick :-\
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I SAID I USED SCHWARTZ CHILLI POWDER
AS I FIND RAJAH CHILLI TOO FIREY
Hey Billycat. Can I suggest that you just use less of the Rajah stuff (which is hotter for sure!). This way you can still get the right heat and save money at the same time. Also, if you read the ingredients on the Schwartz stuff, I think you'll find it contains more than just chilli powder. If I remember correctly, there's oregano in there as well as other things.
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I'm intrigued as to why a number of people (and BIRs allegedly) fry salt?
Hi CA
I don't think it's the frying of the salt on its own, it's when you fry it with onion, or onion and garlic. Presumably it then helps to draw the water from the veg allowing a more rapid frying?
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sorry SS
jus trying my best
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sorry SS
jus trying my best
its all constructive billycat no need to apologize here my friend.
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This chilie powder thing: I used to use schwartz, very good in a Mexican chilie, it adds just the right flavour; not so good in curry, in my madras I use Rajah, to some extend it seems to 'self sour' the dish in a way that Schwartz never did, MUCH better in a curry. I would suggest stick to Rajah, but just use less of it!
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The thing is adriandavidb in my opin ion Bir curry isnt a sour taste it has a caramelised sweetness to it
i am not dis agreeing with what you all have created what i am saying is rahja chilli powder is too harsh with out flavour for me i am not saying schwartz is the answer it was what i had to hand so i used it
i like really really hot flavoursome curries that using fresh chillies can bring not the harsh tastelessness that rajah seems to bring
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The thing is adriandavidb in my opin ion Bir curry isnt a sour taste it has a caramelised sweetness to it
I totally agree billycat, umless of course it's something like an achari which is soured by the added pickle. That said, I've been for a curry today and both the bhuna and the masala both had a sourish taste to them. I think it's a modern change for the worse, but of course those that have only ever had a sour madras, for example, wouldn't know any different.
The amount of curry recipes on this forum that add lemon in say a madras or a vindaloo just amaze me, it takes the curries in a totally wrong taste direction for me.
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The thing is adriandavidb in my opin ion Bir curry isnt a sour taste it has a caramelised sweetness to it
I totally agree billycat, umless of course it's something like an achari which is soured by the added pickle. That said, I've been for a curry today and both the bhuna and the masala both had a sourish taste to them. I think it's a modern change for the worse, but of course those that have only ever had a sour madras, for example, wouldn't know any different.
The amount of curry recipes on this forum that add lemon in say a madras or a vindaloo just amaze me, it takes the curries in a totally wrong taste direction for me.
Hi SS,
Ref, your post above...
have you any ideas as to what i should add to
my next BIR madras/vindaloo etc instead of the normal
lemon/lime juice.
I would like to add this into my next BIR curry.
Thank you, graeme.
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I love currys with 'caramelized sweetness', and have tried many madras/vindaloo type dishes in MANY places, so would say that I don't just like sour curry because I have not tried any better!!
As any chef will tell you Hot/sweet/sour flavours work well together! In fact I would go as far as to say that a sour note hepls to complement the chilie heat!
Mild curry very deffinately should not be sour, but, and it may be a matter of personal taste, hot is better with sweet and sour notes also. That 'caramelized sweetness' is very much still part of the equation however! Try adding a quarter tps of Worcester sauce or rice vinegar to a hot curry. Also half a tps of brown sugar (caramelized-in, by frying with the spices, at the beginning of final dish preparation), and you'll see exactly what I mean! The trick is not to add too much souring agent. The curry should not end up obviously sour OR sweet, but rather these flavours help 'lift' the chilie.
I 'flash-up' curry portions big enough for two adults, using about a pint of base sauce, so if you cook smaller portions I would reduce the quarter tps still further!
Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!
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have you any ideas as to what i should add to
my next BIR madras/vindaloo etc instead of the normal
lemon/lime juice.
Lemon/Lime juice...NORMAL..not in my curry eating experience. Try leaving out any souring agent. Ahh, but then you wouldn't be imitating and eating these third rate curries that we get nowadays..Nahh leave it in. ENJOY!
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Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!
Seriously mate...I bet i have and always will surpass you on BIR curry eating. 5ish years lunch and evening meal daily (when i was rich :) ). OK that was in the eighties, but you haven't got a bloody clue.
The curries on this forum are OK but they SOOO lack the taste and SOOO lack the smell.
If this is what you are happy with then OK.
But I am a real BIR connoisseur. Not a newbie.
This is really getting silly.
No BIR Curry recipes, here or anywhere else, actually reproduce the old style curries.
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No BIR Curry recipes, here or anywhere else, actually reproduce the old style curries.
I was in a BIR kitchen the other week and saw several curries cooked
I talked at length about the base, explaining how I felt there was something missing from the home made version.
But I still couldn't find any new ingredient or technique
It's so frustrating to have got so far and then hit this "brick wall"
Some of this chefs curries are made with curry gravy, curry gravy oil,salt, precooked ingredients and tomato puree, and they taste absolutely amazing.
I realise that the curry gravies vary greatly at different places, but the curry gravy from this place has everything.
You could eat it on it's own.
It's the best thing I have ever tasted and the ingredients are so simple.
What are they doing that we don't?
I have checked about the re use of old oil
They use fresh KTC.
And they don't use ghee either
Their curries have that 1970's flavour
I suppose it stands to reason that these types of curries should be simple
The available ingredients in the 70's were limited compared to today.
It's great to have this site to talk about this, but Secret Santa is right.
There isn't a 100% home made recipe for what some of us are after
And I really don't understand why
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but you haven't got a bloody clue.
I can assure you I have! I'm 45 years old and have been eating BIRs for the last 35 years, and seriously, several times a week since 1982!
'seriously mate'. you're starting to sound arrogant!
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Yes your right even i asked abt the ghee!
They said this they only use this in their rice dishes.
I think another issue is how many curries taste great to one person but if you taste them, they seem a mile off.
Out of all the Curry's i have eaten(and theres been hundreds)There are more bad than good in my opinion!
You either no it or you don't. :)
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all of this getting at each other is no good to any of us.
we need to focus on haldi's words for me. the 70's bit is a red herring.
There isn't a 100% home made recipe for what some of us are after
And I really don't understand why
for me "what some of us are after" means good BIR.
i feel i'm now stuck with no real ideas on how to close the gap. we need ideas on what to do.
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all of this getting at each other is no good to any of us.
i feel i'm now stuck with no real ideas on how to close the gap. we need ideas on what to do.
I'm totally with you Jerry. I too am on the same boat. At the moment I'm just knocking up custom base sauces with additional ingredients but am not making any real progress.
Sorry to be off topic but has anyone tried Bruces original curry house cookery base with just the onions, oil and turmeric? This is my next venuture, with the bundles spice mix and madras recipe. I like simple so this recipe really does it for me.
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Sorry to be off topic but has anyone tried Bruces original curry house cookery base with just the onions, oil and turmeric?
Hi Bobby
This is the first Bruce recipes from the curry club magazine.
I bought them as back issue photostats.
They came on coloured paper.
Yes, I tried these recipes
I thought his second curry house cookery was better though
My family thought that his latest (recently on this site)were the best
There seems to be a hardcore group of us that are obsessed with getting this flavour exact.
I am wondering if I will ever get a result I am happy with.
It's been really good the way so many people have got into kitchens.
Funny that no new ingredients or techniques are turned up, though.
Going back to BB's original question, I am sure a very simple recipe of onions,salt, turmeic, oil, water and garlic will defintely produce the result we are after.
At one time, that is all that Curry Houses had to work with
Things like peppers, ginger, mooli and even coriander were very difficult and expensive to buy.
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I feel exactly the same,we all need to get our heads 2gether cum up with the right method and go from there,but the way they cooked the madras with no base is still buggin me.
Is it just perfecting it or should i forget about it! :-\
i forget about it?
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Hi all, sorry to hear about the disapointments some of you are having. personally i am pleased with having achieved 95%. i can now put a decent curry on the table every night if i wish! they taste miles better than the recipies in traditional indian curry books. The only word of advice i have, is use plenty of oil, and if using electric cooker, really pump up the heat to almost full capacity. fry the garlic at high temp in the oil. also make sure the base is really bubbling away at very high temp. this works for me, and hopefully it will help some of you. i am convinced very high temperature is part of the 'taste' factor. (provided the balance of spices is also spot on) Never over do one spice too much, as it drowns out the rest. Bir dishes are really well balanced, in terms of spicing. this gives that 'interesting' taste we all love. :) anyway enough of my waffle! laters dudes
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DD,
your encouragement is much appreciated and brought a smile.
i know we can all live with the gap - the trouble is i feel the last bit is within our collective grasp. for me this gap is in the recipes & spice and therefore covers a wide area but if we can get the basic sauce right then the rest is purely trial and error.
KC,
did their no base madras seem to have lumpy onion. the reason i ask is that this was the only thing that really put me off whereas the taste was probably better (more BIR) than making the same using the base.
what i'm saying is if the lumpy onion can be perfected then i feel their is mileage not as a replacement but the ability to turn out a decent curry on the spur of the moment very quickly would be well worthwhile.
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DD,
sorry missed the important part in my last post
also make sure the base is really bubbling away at very high temp.
this i do not do. from Maliks and my own TA i know this to be BIR practise. the question is though is it more convenience ie speed of order completion or does it really make a difference.
i make my base quite thin so that it evaps off at the cooking stage - i know this is important in getting close to BIR. would heating the base 1st make that much difference for me given i'm belting it with heat once it's in the pan.
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Just to let everyone know I did your base this weekend Curry Kid WITH a variant of Deathphall's Madras recipe but I got the measurements wrong as the finished result was excellent "BUT" wasn't anywhere near spicy enough.
I was a bit concerned too with missing fresh coriander.
Anyway on the PLUS side my first attempt from here and was given glowing reviews. Cheers guys :)
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Hi Jerry, glad to hear you are still on the curry quest ! Your question is a good one. When i really concentrate on whats going on in the pan, and also turn the heat right up, i end up with an amazing taste every time. However,when i cook at lower heat, i end up with a overly spicy thick soup taste,which is not great. I believe the heat transforms the spices, and gets rid of the raw taste of the spice. it also seems to result in much more bir tasting oil in the dish. for me, the 8 minute flash fry at high heat is a must, (with thin base.) This method only failed once, when i added too much oil. the whole dish was fried, and the sauce was seriously greasy. i wont repeat that mistake again. well i probably will :)
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Agreed we need to try new things to close the gap.
BB's base from the takeaway got me thinking. He said it was very mildly spiced. My current fave base is the BE, with a couple of minor tweaks. What I will do is the next time I make base, to cut the spices in half. Conversely, I will add more spice mix to the finished curry.
Just an idea to see if it makes a difference.
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Conversely, I will add more spice mix to the finished curry.
Try doing what you said, but have you considered not adding more spice mix to the finished curry? I've always felt that my best curries have occurred when I've used around a half tsp spice mix.
CK also thinks minimal spicing is important. Any chance of you elaborating on this CK?
Cheers,
BB.
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Minimal spicing of the base or the curry?
What I was thinking was this:
CURRENT BASE: 4 tbl spice mix
CURRENT CURRY: 0.5 tsp spice mix
to this:
PROPOSED BASE: 2 tbl spice mix
PROPOSED CURRY: 1.5 tsp spice mix
Are you saying this is contrary to info others have suggested? I was using the base you bought as the basis of the hunch.
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Are you saying this is contrary to info others have suggested? I was using the base you bought as the basis of the hunch.
I think that minimal spicing everywhere is the way. I just think that the BE base and recipe is too well spiced. I would personally like to try to reduce it to 2 tbsp in the base, 0.5 tsp in the curry.
If you want to try and replicate my bought base, I would say something along the lines of 1/2 a tbsp BE spice mix. I've not tried making a base this weakly spiced however.
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2p for what it's worth
What I will do is the next time I make base, to cut the spices in half
the BE base is already quite lightly spiced (2.6% by my reckoning). the only thing i thought was that it was too thick. i'd suggest thinning it more after cooking and evap'ing more off at cooking stage. this will give the same effect as Bobby is suggesting.
the amount of spice mix in a final curry is quite topical. i've used 2 tsp for many months with top notch results. last weekend i up'ed to 3 tsp and was surprised i found it ok as i too are for the minimal spicing having compared my own with BIR TA. i did add salt into the equation though (see the KC base thread).
we do need help on this matter for sure.
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Well this has me a bit perplexed.
If the BE base is mildly spiced, and his curry calls for only 0.5 tsp of spice mix, then I'm not sure what to think. I do believe there may be something worth exploring in terms of milder base, and extra spice mix in the finished curry.
Varying amounts of spice mix in the curry has got to affect the aroma/"taste". I've seen anywhere from 0.5 tsp to 4 tsp in some recipes.
Anyone see how much Maliks puts in their finished curries? Probably tough to see.
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sorry josh,
not been clear enough.
for me stick with the spice in the base. add more water to thin it. up the spice in the finished dish to 1 or 2 tsp. the 0.5 tsp is just far too mild.
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Re: the amount of salt used in a curry...
Well, I made a BE Madras tonight, and decided to try this. Instead of the usual pinch, I used a teaspoon.
The result...... almost inedible. Way too much salt.
-- Josh
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Well, I made a BE Madras tonight, and decided to try this. Instead of the usual pinch, I used a teaspoon.
That's a lot! :-X
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Yeah. Just thought I'd warn others who thought about trying:
Maybe the secret ingredient is added salt ::)
Its not. :-X
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When i tasted the base sauce in the restaurant i couldn't believe how little spice i tasted.This is when they said that the final curry has the most spice.
Is this the same in other restaurants i doubt it,when you look at other base recipes on this site!
As of the salt, like they said you have to get the right amount,and when i watched them it was a fair bit going in!
As of the onion Jerry i must add the amount i said was a bit confusing they took one onion but only grated a small amount,which i have found having made a few,the water must cook the onion out
I,m not getting to hung up on this recipe i would just like us to have a few goes tweak it a bit with the onion and water.And say to our selves,"Mm mm that ain't to bad" ;)
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When i tasted the base sauce in the restaurant i couldn't believe how little spice i tasted.This is when they said that the final curry has the most spice.
And what IS the recipe for the final curry Kid Curry? I tried using Deathphall's adapted but it wasn't spicy enough. You got any measurements there to go with your base?
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Josh,
on the salt - exactly what i found. 1 tsp tasted immediately after cooking well OTT. did u taste the dish 5 mins later though. the dish seems to change in a different way to when there is little salt in it.
too little salt and u don't get the same taste change in the 1st 5 mins.
i've settled on 1/4 tsp per 200ml finished portion.
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Jerry,
Actually I put it in a metal takeaway container with the lid on for 5 mins. So it may have been worse if I ate it right away.
I too will settle on the 0.25 tsp.
-- Josh
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Josh,
putting the too higher salt taste to one side in the 1 tsp test - after the 5 mins did u feel the taste of the curry had changed in the direction of BIR. i feel it did and as a result have also adopted the 1/4 tsp. this being a trade off between being able to eat the curry but still getting a bit of that BIR taste.
i'd appreciate your thought's to know if i'm going mad or not ie is the salt significant or not
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Bod68!
as of the madras recipe try Rajver curry sauce,its a winner :)