Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: adriandavidb on June 24, 2008, 02:35 PM
-
There is something that's been bothering me for some time....
Much is spoken about on Cr0 about 'oil reclaim' when making a curry base. It seems that quite a few people reclaim the oil from their base either for use in preparation of the final curry, or simply to produce a less greasy product.
This oil reclaim seems to be achieved by one of two methods, or a combination of them:-
-Making sure the base is quite runny, so the oil rises.
-Simmering for several hours after the pureeing stage, the point in the process
where the mixture is often skimmed.
It seems to me, that the majority of the bases popular here (with at least one notable exception), have a 'tarka' stage in which some material is fried in oil (often tomarto, tomarto puree and spices, and sometimes the garlic and ginger also), and then added to the boiling onion (pepper, carrot, celery, salad, spud, cabbage, whatever).
At least some of the received wisdom, Bruce Edwards would be a good example, states the the skimming and simmering after the addition of tarka should not be too protracted or there is a negative imapact on flavour. Indeed he goes as far as saying that the whole cooking pot should be cooled in cold water as soon as the final stage is complete, to make sure that the base cools as fast as possible.
My point is this: surely if over cooking damages flavour, why boil the hell out of it for 3 hours just to get back some oil??
I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks about this?
I used to make a 'bog standard' KD base, the oil always came up toward the end, These days I make a modified one using some extra spice, and also capsicum, celery and carrot. However now the oil does not rise, EVEN THOUGH THE BASE IS JUST AS RUNNY AS BEFORE! I've never worked out why?
I mentioned here before that many years ago I was lucky enough to see a demo. The chef started by swirling small amount of oil round a hot pan, and tipping it all out, leaving just a thin film on the pan. Yet when the curry was finished, there was the usual large quantity of oil floating on top! Now this could only have come from the base, so presumably they did not reclaim their oil in that establishment, I still go that that place, The Zari, Ifield, Crawley; and I would place it above average!
I'd be grateful for your thoughts!
-
For me I reclaim oil from the base and set aside for no other reason that i love the explosion of smell it creates in my kitchen when cooking with it instead of regular veg oil. It also adds a little something to the curry i think.
I guess you could just get some veg oil heat up and add a chef's spice mix to it and this would effectively give you a spiced oil therefore removing any need to reclaim from the base.
Lets face it our houses don't stink of spice (Haldi excluded) so that initial explosion you get from heating the reclaimed oil up reminds us all of a curry house....well it does for me.
Stew 8)
ps, i dont boil for 3 hours, there is no need.
-
that the majority of the bases popular here (with at least one notable exception), have a 'tarka' stage
Stew has identified the no 1 advantage why i started doing oil reclaim - it just did not sit well with me putting nice shiny clean oil into a curry just purely on the taste front.
for sure the use of the reclaimed oil at cooking/frying is a step improvement for me to BIR.
The "tarka" aspect is the No 2 (but has the greater impact on the finished curry).
I don't know about these "popular" bases being any good as i've not tried any - ie i've not done any tarka'ing. the nearest i got to it was with the AIR base (ivangough's) this requires the onion to be fried.
i've not been a fan of tarka'ing down to the effort and do not believe there is a step improvement to be gained over the simple boil (my onion boiling trials, http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg23698#msg23698)).
i don't understand why the oil reclaim method delivers a step improvement but it does.
a) add extra oil to your choice base
b) reduce the amount of water (1/3 depth of veg)
c) cook for base spec period
d) add extra water - enough to rtn to same vol at end of simmer
e) simmer 1 hr, lid off
f) pour off oil
g) thin with water to a thin soup consistency (if needed)
i think the onion/oil/water ratio to be critical in getting a BIR curry and i suppose the oil reclaim method takes some of the guess work out by putting more oil in than is needed and removes the excess at the end (too much oil in a base does not produce a good curry)
i think the "water evaporation trick" to be a key part of the process. when i made Admin's Jalfrezi it called for the water trick. i had my 1st batch of oil reclaim base and made the Jalfrezi by my std frying method - the curry was fantastic a clear BIR std. (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2664.msg23788#msg23788). i made the recipe several times so there was no 1 off fluke and as a result did not try the water trick.
The June 2008 SnS madras calls for the water trick and this time i tried it - fantastic result. i think this is the same process as the 1 hr simmer and therefore it's possible to get the same fantastic near BIR result from either method.
the 3rd factor in the oil reclaim method is what's interesting in the "tarka'ing". this i feel occurs in the oil reclaim method due to the high proportion of oil. it effectively fries the onion/veg as it boils.
u certainly don't need to simmer for 3 hrs to achieve the reclaim. i have simmered once for this period and the taste did not change and certainly the flavour was not damaged in any way - i produced my closest to BIR curry at the time with it.
i do agree with the train of thought that oil reclaim is not the sole route to BIR taste (ie put just enough in so just the right amount surfaces at frying stage) - it just removes the need for expertise in ratio's, the water trick and the need to make your own spiced oil.
-
1) I'm sure you are attributing too much of the BIR taste to using oil reclaim Jerry.
2) As I've already mentioned, oil reclaim is something that is not generally done in BIR. If you choose to do it for whatever reason then that is your preference but in my opinion this is not good cooking practice.
3) If the oil is left in the base, each batch of base then has it's own share of spiced oil in it and contributes to the base flavour (it is an essential part of that base).
4) If you recover the oil from the base, for most recipes you are not going to have enough to use on every curry made from that batch unless you added more oil to the base in the first place. For example, take the Saffron base which makes about 4.5 litres, of which 500ml of oil. If you recover 400ml of that oil, based on 200ml base per curry, that it just 20 ml of oil per curry - that is 4 tsp. A curry requires 2-3 tbsp of oil (30 to 45ml).
5) If you prefer to use spiced oil to cook your curry then why not Tarka a large batch of oil separately .. although I can't really see the point (see below).
6) Back to Indian cooking basics - the idea of frying spices in fresh oil is to flavour that oil (which varies between recipes). This flavoured oil then in-turn flavours everything cooked in that oil. Why bother to add carefully measured amounts of fresh spice into an already flavoured oil. As Raj pointed out - it is contaminated - and this will alter the final taste from that intended.
:-\
Regards
SnS ;)
-
An observation I've made on the "contaminated" point...
I reclaimed oil from my last batch of the original Saffron, and left it in the fridge in a sealed plastic bowl. That base lasted me about two/three weeks. At first the oil was great and (agreeing with Jerry) definitely added something to the taste. However, by the end of the three weeks, the oil smelled different/stale, which I can only put down to deterioration of the vegetable component (albeit tiny) in the oil.
That was enough to put me off storing it. If I decide to reclaim oil again, it will be for the first/second curry I make after making the base.
-- Josh
-
You're right Josh. The oil will contain tiny particles of other ingredients (albeit small). Two to three weeks old? I'm surpised it weren't growing :o
The maximum time a base is kept for in a BIR is 2 to 3 days. Some, like the Saffron only keep it 24 hours as (according to Raj), it starts to darken and the taste degrades. If it's not used it is ditched. They don't freeze it either.
SnS :-\
-
No no... the base itself was frozen. The reclaimed oil was not.
-- Josh
-
No no... the base itself was frozen. The reclaimed oil was not.
-- Josh
I know what you meant Josh. But the oil will contain other material. I'm just saying that if the base material degrades (without freezing) after 2-3 days then there is a good chance that the same material in the oil (albeit small amounts), will also degrade after the same period.
Perhaps another reason why using reclaimed oil is not a good idea?
SnS ::)
-
Errr that was the point of my post...
-
Errr that was the point of my post...
dooooh ....... and I'm agreeing with you :-\
-
I must admit that I tend to agree with SnS: Every time a curry dish is prepared from pre-made base, spices are fried in oil, thus producing freshly flavoured oil within that particualr dish on each occassion. And also why take out oil produced in the base only to add it back again to final dish if it's reused? And as SnS says, if its all lft in the base, provided the base is well stirred (to off-set the effects of any localized separation), there will be equal amounts of the origanal flavoured oil in each portion of base!
It was interesting to note that JerryM felt that a long simmer didn't adversely effect flavour.
-
Sns,
i appreciate your dead set against oil reclaim and i can see your logic and warm to it. i fully accept Raj knows his stuff.
the trouble is the best curries i've ever made have been over the last few weeks or so - since i found the moorish taste via the reclaim process (using of course Raj's fantastic base).
now this is the "if"
the water trick creates the same magic for sure - i don't believe BIR's do this either. so all we need to do is work how the BIR taste is achieve without the reclaim process or the messing that's associated with the water trick.
if that can't be done then personal preference must prevail until the BIR taste mystery is solved by other means.
small PS for josh - my bases are always gone in 7 days, i keep them in the fridge and i don't freeze any. i sieve the reclaim oil through a fine plastic sieve and then a paper towel - i feel it will keep in the fridge indefinitely - the last batch is 2 wks old and tastes just as good as it did on day 1.
-
And also why take out oil produced in the base only to add it back again to final dish if it's reused?
The "sole" reason for taking it out is that the base then contains the optimum amount of oil. too little or too much oil produces an inferior taste in both the base and finished curry. Trial and error or experience will eventually give the same result.
The bye product is the "easy" supply of spiced oil for cooking with.
-
the water trick creates the same magic for sure - i don't believe BIR's do this either. so all we need to do is work how the BIR taste is achieve without the reclaim process or the messing that's associated with the water trick.
This is really not a trick. What they do (in BIR) is to produce a more watery base, so the water is in the base already (with some oil).
Trouble is we tend to freeze our bases (at least I do) so I recently tried to produce a more freezer friendly 'condensed' base (hence the SnS's Base June 2008), but this does require some watering down - hence adding the water 'trick'. Although this was also used on my Simple Madras Style recipe posted a while back, as the Saffron base is more watery it wasn't always needed.
Turn down heat to medium/low. Some oil should now have separated. When the the curry thickens (which it will), the oil is re-adsorbed. Add a little hot water (or more base gravy for a richer taste).
Regards
SnS
-
SnS,
apologies if u're not gelling with the term "trick" - it's intended to make members aware that it is something special - which it is - and they need to try it to believe it.
thanks for thoughts on next step - appreciated
What they do (in BIR) is to produce a more watery base, so the water is in the base already (with some oil).
i will try this out on my next CR02 base comparison adopting Raj's wisdom for one base and reclaim for the other.