Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Bobby Bhuna on May 20, 2008, 02:48 PM
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Before everyone was chatting about it here, I thought I'd try gently cooking my onions in a whole lot of veg oil (maybe around 500ml - I don't measure). When making my own base, I do this every time now, and have done since the first time I tried it (a few months back). It just tastes better - much sweeter that the boiling method. I see this is being talking about and note that Stew is up to the same thing. Who else is using the oil technique? Has anyone tried and disliked this method? Maybe we can compare the two approaches!
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I agree boiling only ends up with bitter bases, boiling the onions in Veg Oil brings out the sweetness in the curry base.
Has anyone tried adding a squeeze of lime juice to their curry when making it, please try it it really adds something. I can also recommend adding whole chili's sliced down the middle. This does not add heat but infuses a nutty smell and taste into the curry....
Stew 8)
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I can also recommend adding whole chili's sliced down the middle. This does not add heat but infuses a nutty smell and taste into the curry....
I often add whole chili's sliced down the middle as a garnish. What stage do you add them at? Also when you recommend squeezing in the lime juice? Cheers, BB.
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I agree boiling only ends up with bitter bases, boiling the onions in Veg Oil brings out the sweetness in the curry base.
I really don't understand why this bitterness is being experienced by some and not others. I've never had a bitter tasting base from boiling onions ... so why is it some get it and others don't?
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder what difference the hardness of the local water makes to the outcome. In Lincoln we have particularly hard water. Is it possible that this could be the reason for the difference in sweetness - possibly a different chemical reaction ?
Or is it just down to the variety/origin of the onion.
SnS :-\
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Or is it just down to the variety/origin of the onion.
SnS :-\
Or the variety/origin of the taster? ;D
SnS, have you tried the gently oil soaked onion cooking technique for the base? If not, then please do. Do this before adding the tomatoes.
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this i feel is a very good question and worthy say of a poll to find out who is frying and who is boiling.
i also feel "bitterness" is being inadvertently used when "neutral" is possibly a better description.
all the bases i've made on every occasion (rajver, saffron, ifindforu, Ronnoc's, ivangoughs) don't taste bitter at all. they don't have an "underlying sweet tone" though.
if i make CTM for example the sweet tone does not matter - the CTM tastes as good as BIR for me.
if i make the more standard curries ie madras and compare it side by side with BIR/TA the BIR is clearly much sweeter.
the question for me is where and how do BIR's add this "underlying sweet tone" - is it:
A) - in the base by frying the onion
B) - at the cooking stage by using previously fried onions
C) - by adding some other ingredient in the base
D) - by adding some other ingredient at the cooking stage
???
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Or is it just down to the variety/origin of the onion.
SnS :-\
Or the variety/origin of the taster? ;D
SnS, have you tried the gently oil soaked onion cooking technique for the base? If not, then please do. Do this before adding the tomatoes.
Hi Bobby
As you know (from the recent Madras recipe), I do use a slow fry for onions when I want a sweeter taste. However, I don't really feel the need to do this with onions used in the base gravy - after all aren't we all trying to replicate BIR - and as I suggested earlier it is highly unlikey that they (BIR's) will fry the onions before adding to the base (they certainly don't in the Saffron).
If the comments of 'bitterness', refer to, as Jerry suggests 'neutral' sweetness, then for me, that is at it should be. There is no need to adjust it. Sweeteness can be added at the curry stage .... if required ::)
If it is a sweet base you're after I'd have to asky why? What do you need a sweet base for? As long as it is not bitter then surely that is okay!
Regards
SnS :-\
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The BIR kitchens I visit, boil the onions
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if i make the more standard curries ie madras and compare it side by side with BIR/TA the BIR is clearly much sweeter.
the question for me is where and how do BIR's add this "underlying sweet tone" - is it:
A) - in the base by frying the onion
B) - at the cooking stage by using previously fried onions
C) - by adding some other ingredient in the base
D) - by adding some other ingredient at the cooking stage
Perhaps the solution to your desired Madras sweetness is here Jerry.
SnS :)
By Bobby Bhuna
Result, delicious. Far better than any of my expectations. It tasted very sweet despite the fact that I didn't add any Mango chutney, which I put down to the cooking of the onions in stage 1.
If I am to go back to using high heat, I will still fry the onion gently until translucent, as the resulting sweetness is top notch.
Full review here
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2603.msg23682.html#msg23682
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A) - in the base by frying the onion
B) - at the cooking stage by using previously fried onions
C) - by adding some other ingredient in the base
D) - by adding some other ingredient at the cooking stage
I would hazard a guess its A or C. Most of the "demos" on this site are pretty straightforward, with no mention of "adding prefried onions". Unless there's something in the spice mix, I'm thinking it must be in the base, not necessarily ingredients but method.
Josh
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SNS/Haldi,
thoughts are much appreciated - i am now convinced option "A" (fry onion in base) and "C" (adding some other ingredient in the base) are BIR No No's following my onion boiling sessions and oil reclaim on latest base make.
amazingly i've got KTC olive oil (never looked at the brand before) that i use in none curry cooking. i will buy the veg oil equivalent to make sure i'm not missing anything by using sunflower oil (asda).
intriguing - the level of the water/oil - i am now convinced this has a big part to play in the sweetness - a 200gm/400ml onion/water boil produces more sweetness than a 200gm/1000ml boil
(explained in "A must in an indian curry") http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2672.msg23743.html#msg23743 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2672.msg23743.html#msg23743)
Sweetness can be added at the curry stage .... if required
i like very much the idea of slow cooking onions at the start of the cooking stage (as described in the simple madras and proven by Bobby).
this does not sit well in terms of BIR practise. i am happy to adopt the practise but would appreciate thoughts on how it fits with BIR practise and getting that added sweetness at the curry stage. at the mo i add sugar to my spice mix and this works well as a sticking plaster - but again not BIR technique.
the oil reclaim i've completed in my latest saffron base has taken me completely by surprise and i will add details in the saffron post - it's the best base i've produced and definitely BIR Moorish. I may have dropped my quest for more sweetness as a result ? will need to cook with it to prove for sure.
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I often add whole chili's sliced down the middle as a garnish. What stage do you add them at? Also when you recommend squeezing in the lime juice? Cheers, BB.
Bobby,
I put them in when the curry is simmering (i.e after all the base i s added) so they get about 8 to 10 minutes.
I put a squeeze of lime in 5 mins from the enr...try it.
Stew
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i like very much the idea of slow cooking onions at the start of the cooking stage (as described in the simple madras and proven by Bobby).
this does not sit well in terms of BIR practise. i am happy to adopt the practise but would appreciate thoughts on how it fits with BIR practise and getting that added sweetness at the curry stage. at the mo i add sugar to my spice mix and this works well as a sticking plaster - but again not BIR technique.
eh? :-\ Where did that line of thought come from. It is exactly what they do.
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i like very much the idea of slow cooking onions at the start of the cooking stage (as described in the simple madras and proven by Bobby).
this does not sit well in terms of BIR practise. i am happy to adopt the practise but would appreciate thoughts on how it fits with BIR practise and getting that added sweetness at the curry stage. at the mo i add sugar to my spice mix and this works well as a sticking plaster - but again not BIR technique.
eh? :-\ Where did that line of thought come from. It is exactly what they do.
I know where Jerry's coming from. I have images of pans on fire and 5 minute currys. I never imagine any gentle simmering etc when picturing a BIR kitchen. However even on a empty night, it still take a good 10 - 15 minutes, so there's a fair chance that is exactly what they're doing.
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Incidentally, I've been making more curries in the past couple of days and have continued to use the slow frying onion technique used in SnS's simple madras. It REALLY works. The gf prefers it, which is always a good sign.
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There is always the possiblity that any 'sweet' chopped onions the chef uses when making the curry may already be prepared in advance by gentle pre-frying in larger batches ...
... especially when used in those busy 5 minute curry takaways with the flaming pans! ::)
SnS ;)
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There is always the possiblity that any 'sweet' chopped onions the chef uses when making the curry may already be prepared in advance by gentle pre-frying in larger batches ...
I've never read of that happening. I don't think anyone who posts here has ever mentioned the use of pre-cooked onions in any BIR demo they have had (correct me if I'm wrong). For this reason, I think it doubtful that this is common BIR practise. They probably just gently simmer the onions for a couple of minutes (I think it can be done in less than your 5 minutes, perhaps nearer 3?)
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They probably just gently simmer the onions for a couple of minutes (I think it can be done in less than your 5 minutes, perhaps nearer 3?)
Correct - the 5 minutes errs on the side of caution for those curry chefs who prefer inferno style. Key point is that they are lightly fried until just before they start changing to that light brown colour ... and they actually TASTE sweet before moving to next stage.
I'm sure mine take nearer 3 minutes as well - but I do chop my onions quite fine so they will cook more quickly.
:P
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but I do chop my onions quite fine so they will cook more quickly.
:P
Oooooooh look at me and my lovely finely chopped onions! :P ;D
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but I do chop my onions quite fine so they will cook more quickly.
:P
Oooooooh look at me and my lovely finely chopped onions! :P ;D
I see you sensed my subtle dig at your chunky onions then Bobby ;D ::) :P
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Where did that line of thought come from. It is exactly what they do
the line of thought is just as Bobby said. i phone my TA order and go and pick it up. there is less than 20 mins to cook it and bag it along with doing other orders
i'm ok on the 3 mins - probably faster on the big burners.
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i'm ok on the 3 mins - probably faster on the big burners.
If you cook them faster, they will not become sweet. That's why they are cooked slowly - to make them sweet. On a big or small burner, cooking them quickly won't bring home the sweetness
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thanks bobby. i'm ok now on my onions.
hope Stew's jalfrezi hits the spot with u tonight - it did for us - a definite wow!
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Where did that line of thought come from. It is exactly what they do
the line of thought is just as Bobby said. i phone my TA order and go and pick it up. there is less than 20 mins to cook it and bag it along with doing other orders
i'm ok on the 3 mins - probably faster on the big burners.
Mmmm ... 3 minutes is okay (BIR) but 5 is not (non BIR) - how strange is that Jerry? :-\
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it's down to maths.
as i said i order my takeaway and 20 mins later pick it up. there are 3 mains, 1 sauce and 1 chef.
i can't get hung up on it though and i'll make it 5 then (for home cooking).
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They precooked onions in the restaurant i was shown. They were the large chunks used for jalfrezi, balti etc. He said they did it so it saved time for those dishes (along with a little green pepper too). He said he added tamarind powder which was surprising. I suppose the sourness brings out the sweetness, in the same way salt was mentioned earlier.
I dont think it's a big deal either way, some of the onions in the dish should be sweet and you can get there however you want
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I always use plenty of veg oil in my base, and for cooking onions. It might be unhealthty but it sure gets that greasy effect like a real BIR curry. I suspect you could achieve a similar taste with less oil but at the moment I am sticking with buckets of oil! Until i make a real replica of a BIR curry that is. I find the long slow cook of the base with lots of oil gets a great result. and improves the next day, which is a bonus. I think lots of garlic in base is good too. The 15 garlic base on this site is one of my favs.
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I love garlic too. You have to keep the base bland though remember!
I've given quite a bit of thought into the slow cooking of onions. I don't think they pre cook them in bulk. I just can't imagine a chef putting a spoonful of sweaty pre cooked onions into the pan - I don't imagine they'd sit well. Plus, we would have heard about it before now.
I think that firstly, not all mains need onions, and those that do don't all need them finely chopped and sweet. There are loads of Madras recipes I have tried and enjoyed that do not contain onions (other than those in the base obviously). So say for example a "curry", Madras, Vindaloo and Phall don't need onions - that's a fair whack of the meals already.
I'm sure they'd have time to give the onions 3-5 minutes in the rest of the dishes. Also bear in mind that if two people order a dish needing the onions done this way they'd probably just bang on two portions of the onions in one go - and so on.
This is definitely one question that you'd get away with asking when you're getting a curry.
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There are loads of Madras recipes I have tried and enjoyed that do not contain onions
i'd 2nd that - i used to put onions in but when i started using gary's method (uses finely chopped garlic) of frying (woodpecker21) i dropped them and never looked back
I love garlic too
i'd 3rd that.
thanks for the prompt Derek - had not spotted this 15 garlic base - sounds spot on for me buying my garlic by the kilo. ;D
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after trying both methods i settled on frying the veg in my base (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2702.0/)
before adding water
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i'm sticking with boiling but it may be of interest that the Lynette Baxter Balti book base does fry the onions on medium heat until just going brown (c/w KD boiling).
i've made the LB base along with KD in the past (until finding this site) and would say that the base is pretty good but not as good as the best on this site.