Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: ifindforu on May 17, 2008, 01:22 PM
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Hi during my journey trying to find that great BIR taste a little tip which I would like to share with everyone is that, Jaggery {palm sugar}is a very important ingredient to put in your basic sauce I myself in my subject A GOOD BASIC SAUCE mention sugar,but would now alter that to the jaggery (http://www.ifindforu.com)
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When you say basic sauce, I assume you are referring to the curry itself, not the base gravy? I would never add sugar to the base gravy, as sweetness is a thing that is easily adjusted (to taste) at the end of the curry stage.
I've been trying to get hold of palm sugar from local supermarkets for sometime now, as I want to use it in Pathia.
I can't find it anywhere, although I believe larger Tesco stores do sometimes stock it (not here in Lincoln though).
I use a little mango chutney (or dark brown sugar) at the moment to add sweetness.
Apparantly the taste of palm sugar (jaggery) is quite unique.
SnS ;D
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I dont add sugar to my base sauces. I use a little jaggery for my vindaloo or light brown sugar as a substitute, but it is definately not something which is used in every base and curry.
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Apparantly the taste of palm sugar (jaggery) is quite unique.
SnS
So is it's smell
It's a musty, almost damp aroma
It seems to keep forever (unless you eat it)
I've got some jaggery sugar lumps that are three years old
They still taste fine
It's quite funny, actually
It has a "fit for human consumption" label on it's cellaphane wrapper
That inspires me with confidence
Maybe they use it for something that animals eat?
If I start chewing a bit, I find it very hard to stop
Very addictive
You get bits of dried vegetation in it (straw, grass who knows?)
I've never heard of it used in a curry base, though
You can probably get the stuff mail order, if you want to try it
Unless Gordon Brown has reclassified it, of course
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hi guys
a chef will add either salt or sugar to acheive the desired taste to his own base sauce i guess this is dependent on the onions, no two are the same ( mother nature and all), they may have they same "grain" but each will act differently with the addition of salt at the boiling stage of making a base sauce. remeber the Bir chef does not relgiously meaure his ingredients a bag full of onions may never weigh the same after peeling etc chefs spoons etc it is all done by eye it is only near the end of cookin ght ebase he will taste to see if the base is too salty or sweet and then add either of aforementioned to create the flavour he requires the base to be.
regards
gary
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Salt yes - but I'm sure that sugar (in any form) is not added to a base gravy to adjust for sweetness.
Majority of Indian chefs never taste the stuff they cook anyway.
;)
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but I'm sure that sugar (in any form) is not added to a base gravy
SNS,
please if we could push you on this - why are u sure.
i raise this as i'm sceptical that onion can deliver the BIR sweetness (based on frying onions for bbq use). since making ivangough's AIR i now appreciate that salt (amazingly) does play a big part.
i've tried putting sugar in after the base during the frying stage but this just ends up "sickly".
my current sticking plaster is to put sugar into the spice mix - it does work but i'm sure it's BIR convention.
adding to the base would make a lot of sense and i like gary's thoughts on the variability of onions.
In terms of jaggery it sounds a contender. I will check it?s availability out at my local asian store. If they don?t have it then I would conclude it?s not widely used.
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Here's my ancient jaggery (complete with quality label)
It's still tasting fine!!
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please if we could push you on this - why are u sure.
The main base gravy provides flexability in that it can be used in 80-90% of the popular BIR curry dishes. Generally the base will taste reasonably sweet anyway - it should never taste bitter.
If sugar (or other sweet ingredient) is added to the base, then all curries cooked using that base will 'suffer' from that additional sweetness.
i raise this as i'm sceptical that onion can deliver the BIR sweetness (based on frying onions for bbq use). since making ivangough's AIR i now appreciate that salt (amazingly) does play a big part.
Onions if used correctly can impart sweetness greater than sugar.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2491.msg21705.html#msg21705
i've tried putting sugar in after the base during the frying stage but this just ends up "sickly".
What type of sugar are you using?
my current sticking plaster is to put sugar into the spice mix - it does work but I'm sure it's BIR convention.
Why add it to the spice mix? Are you talking about the spice mix for making the curry. Surely, frying spice powder with sugar is asking for a sticky mess? Or are you referring to the spice mix in the base gravy?
adding to the base would make a lot of sense and i like gary's thoughts on the variability of onions.
I disagree for reasons above. But then again if you prefer to have all your curries sweet - why not? Try adding additional 'sweet' carrots to the base or more bell peppers.
In terms of jaggery it sounds a contender. I will check it?s availability out at my local asian store. If they don?t have it then I would conclude it?s not widely used.
Jaggery (Gur, Goor or Palm sugar) is a traditional sweetener is used in a lot of Indian recipe books. Due to difficulty in obtaining it, alternative sweeteners such as dark brown sugar are used.
Regards
SnS ;)
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SNS,
response & link much appreciated.
this is a v.important topic to me to crack. when i compare my curry with BIR side by side i am clearly lacking sweetness.
reasonably sweet is difficult to appreciate and compare in words - i guess though that all the bases i've made don't taste what i would say "reasonably sweet". i don't have sugar in tea or coffee so reasonably sweet for me would be like 1 tsp of sugar in a cup of coffee. i don't get this level of sweetness in the bases albeit that i would not want it that sweet in a base say more like 1/2 tsp.
i am intending making my next batch of base (saffron) next week and have been weighing up how to modify the cooking in an attempt to get this extra sweetness. i was thinking of either pre frying the onions (Admin's Jalfrezi and ivangough's AIR experiences) or cooking the onions longer till they become brown and no more sweetness appears forthcoming (a comment previously by CA).
having looked at the "onion" link i am going to go for the "Slow-cook: sweet, mild, limp" approach.
i use white granulated sugar all the time and it's the spice for making the curry that i put it in.
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I too am intrigued about this missing sweetness.
So Jerry let me get this straight. You plan on on making a batch of Saffron, but precooking the onions? How do you intend to do this? I'm due for a new batch of Saffron later this week and want to try this modification.
Thanks,
Josh
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I too am intrigued about this missing sweetness.
So Jerry let me get this straight. You plan on on making a batch of Saffron, but precooking the onions? How do you intend to do this? I'm due for a new batch of Saffron later this week and want to try this modification.
Thanks,
Josh
Hang on!
Isn't this what Stew just did in this thread?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2664.0.html
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Exactly, and in Stew's words, it was BIR authentic. *If* the positive result was down to the base, then the onion pre-frying may be the key. Before I was going to try it myself (and use the base with some of the tried and tested madras etc) I was asking the following:
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Stew, I would think that 40 minutes frying onion in that much oil would start to 'deep fry' it. What sort of temperature did you use in the pre-fry stage? What was the final consistency/colour of the onions before proceeding with the regular Saffron recipe?
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Josh
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i'm planning to make my normal batch of saffron but extend the 1st stage "40min" cooking time to something like 3hrs (until i feel the onions are not going to give anymore sweetness).
i've read somewhere CA saying he did this - effectively till the onions go brown from the simmering in the water/oil.
i interpreted stews info (rightly or wrongly) that the pre frying of the onions was not the critical part (see link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2664.msg23630.html#msg23630 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2664.msg23630.html#msg23630))
but the green chilli, lime and water trick
the other thing i'm going to do is to up the oil to 750ml (i normally only use 250) to get some reclaimed oil for the 1st time.
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So you're going to boil them for 3 hours, along with the green pepper, carrot, potatoes, etc? Or just the onions alone?
How does the boiling method differ from the 'fry in oil' method that Stew used?
I'm curious to try a modification to increase the sweetness in the base, and minimize bitterness.
I agree that side by side a BIR, my efforts are correct in terms of consistency, amount of oil, taste in general, but I never get that underlying sweet tone. I agree with others that have said that adding sugar (to the base or otherwise) will not do the trick.
Josh
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yes going to boil all for the 3 hrs.
i'm not sure that the method (fry or boil) makes a difference. i think the end result from both methods will be the same. saying that if the boil does not work then i will try the fry on the next base.
i don't get any bitterness with any of the bases - they just taste sort of neutral (dare i say it - like soup).
you've put the finger on it "underlying sweet tone" - that's in words exactly what i too am missing
other things on my radar are reclaimed oil, adding whole cardamom at the start of the base cooking & the kushi spice mix (to compare against my norm LB)
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Pleeeease. What's all this referral to bitterness? If it tastes bitter then you've done something wrong. Do you really believe that a BIR goes through the frying onion process everytime they produce a base gravy - not likely.
If you've used the correct onions (cooking onions and not Spanish) and cut them into large chunks, after boiling as per recipe there will be NO bitterness.
If you would like a sweeter taste, then consider adding more carrot or bell pepper. It's quite simple. To get sweetness from onion, there is no need to fry, deep fry or otherwise incinerate.
Try this. Take a whole cooking onion. Cut off the ends. Peel off the outer skin. Boil in water for 45 minutes. Taste. It's very sweet. There is your answer.
SnS ;)
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Actually you're both right, bitterness is not the problem. I suppose I chose this word as the "absence of sweetness", which is the neutral flavour Jerry describes.
SnS, while you're right that its unlikely they do a pre-fry stage, there are small subtleties that make a difference in the outcome. For e.g. my last 4 base gravy preparations have all been the Saffron, and they've all tasted exactly the same except the last one. All I did different was leave the finished base, covered, on the hob (no heat) overnight, rather than immediately freeze it into portions. The next day the base was darker, more oil had separated than usual. The taste of the finished curries was better too - although I can't put my finger on what exactly why.
Jerry let us know the outcome of the "three hour boil"
-- Josh
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For e.g. my last 4 base gravy preparations have all been the Saffron, and they've all tasted exactly the same except the last one. All I did different was leave the finished base, covered, on the hob (no heat) overnight, rather than immediately freeze it into portions. The next day the base was darker, more oil had separated than usual. The taste of the finished curries was better too - although I can't put my finger on what exactly why.
Hi Josh
Its probably the same as leaving a leftover curry in the fridge overnight as opposed to freezing it. It usually tastes better the next day as the flavours mingle and marinate better before it is frozen.
BTW, when I make the Saffron base I now always leave it overnight (in containers) to completely cool before freezing the following morning. After defrosting, I also bring each portion back to the simmer before it is used in the curry.
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Try this. Take a whole cooking onion. Cut off the ends. Peel off the outer skin. Boil in water for 45 minutes. Taste. It's very sweet. There is your answer.
Just to prove the point (to myself), immediately after my last post I did exactly that.
The boiled onion is sickly sweet - too sweet (and I take 2 tsp sugar in my brew!)
So if anyone has any doubts about the type of onions they're using, I suggest they try this little test before using those particular onions to make a batch of curry gravy. If it tastes bitter after the 45 minute boil test, then use a different type of onion.
SnS ;)
ps: see my latest post in 'Know Your Onions'
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2491.msg23677.html#msg23677
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SNS,
much appreciate your thoughts.
i've ditched the 3 hr boil for the mo.
i'm going to repeat your experiment to make sure my onions are ok. then i'm going to expand (to use my 4 hobs) to include say :
a) SNS spec
b) SNS spec + salt
c) boil in oil
d) SNS spec + salt + cardamom seed
will report back.
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having looked at the "onion" link i am going to go for the "Slow-cook: sweet, mild, limp" approach.
Have a look at my post in SnS simple Madras recipe thread, where I try the recipe. Cooking the onions slowly at the curry stage made the curry very sweet.
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results are in.
i found this onion cooking "basics" very good in terms of learning and would say a very good lead-in to BIR cooking.
i made 5 onion batches to SNS's spec (200gm peeled in 400ml water but boiled for 1 hr):
a) small onions (typ dia 1")
b) large onions (typ dia 3")
c) large onions boiled in 300 ml sunflower oil
d) large onions + 1 tps salt
e) large onions + 3 off cardamom
observations:
1) the onion liquid tastes very sweet (best in the large onions)
2) the onion itself when cooked just in water does not taste sweet
3) both the salt & the cardamom increased the perception of sweetness in the onion itself
4) the onions cooked in oil tasted the sweetest
5) 290ml of oil was reclaimed (so not much absorbed)
conclusions:
1) i loose the sweetness when the cooked onions & cooked water are blended
2) in future when making bases i will use more salt and add cardamom
3) the boiled onion even with salt & cardamom does not alone give the sweetness I crave
4) the fried onion may give the sweetness I crave (I would need to try it in a base)
I hope I find the jaggery in my local Asian supermarket as boiling onions in oil does not gel well with me in terms of how I perceived BIR?s make bases.
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Bobby,
Have a look at my post in SnS simple Madras recipe thread
it's got me now not knowing which recipe to try 1st - i've got stews's jalfrezi in the heart but SNS's madras in the brain.
going to have to try both. ;D ;D ;D
link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2603.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2603.0.html)
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forgot the pics of the onions
from top left clockwise: reclaimed oil, with salt, with cardamom, large onions, small onions, boiled in oil
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Nice experiment Jerry but you forgot to mention what variety of onions you used ... or were they all different?
SnS ;)
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SNS,
both small (class 2) & large (class 1) bought from ASDA - english cooking onions
NB
i've got 1 large onion left - will boil it all evening (say 3 to 5 hrs) until either the onion flesh is sweet or i'm sure it's not going to sweeten any further.
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forgot the pics of the onions
from top left clockwise: reclaimed oil, with salt, with cardamom, large onions, small onions, boiled in oil
Hahaha, awesome. Such dedication to the cause. Great experiment Jerry! ;D
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Hahaha, awesome. Such dedication to the cause. Great experiment Jerry! ;D
Seconded, it's these sort of experiments that make this forum so great, thanks for sharing ;)
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I'll third that :) where do you find all the time? fantastic reporting and great effort!
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it's all the members who deserve any praise.
by everyone reading the posts and adding their constructive thoughts we are our collectively much more inspirational much more likely to eventually get to the BIR taste we crave.
back to business
i boiled the last onion for 5 hrs. i used 1 litre of water as i thought all this boiling would make 400ml dry up long before the end. in fact i had to add further small quantities during the period.
observations:
1) after 2 hrs liquid was no where near as sweet as when the 400ml of water was used
2) after 3 hrs no real change
3) after 5 hrs the onion had started to break up into a mush and there was very little liquid remaining. the liquid and onion mush both tasted sweet.
as this point u would think that if u boiled a base longer than say 2 hrs it would become sweeter.
i don't believe this to be the case. i have just made a batch of saffron base using in place of the fresh onion all the test batches of onion. i am aiming to reclaim oil on this base and have as a result boiled/simmered the base for an extra 3 hrs on top of the normal cooking period.
the sweetness is no different to the saffron bases i've made previously.
the base incidentally is the best i've made to date (closest to what i believe to be BIR base). i think the extra oil, extra salt (actually the as spec 3 tsp), cardamom and extra cooking time have made the jump closer to BIR base. i think in reality i've probably better interpreted the making of the base more a kin to BIR. will post more details in the saffron post.
conclusions:
1) the ratio of liquid to onion is crucial to amount of sweetness
2) the longer boiling (greater than 2hrs) does not produce extra sweetness
3) the cooking technique has a big part to play (oil reclaim)
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have added pic of the 5hr boil
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Stew, I would think that 40 minutes frying onion in that much oil would start to 'deep fry' it. What sort of temperature did you use in the pre-fry stage? What was the final consistency/colour of the onions before proceeding with the regular Saffron recipe?
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Just boil them in 750ml of veg oil for 40 mins, you are aiming for what JerryM had in the bottom left photo. Caramalised and sweet, then just chuck in the rest of the ingrediants, top up with water to cover and carry on with the base recipe.
I do not see an issue with an indian takeaway using vast amounts of oil to boil their veg in then topping up with water after the initial stage. In fact they would probably just chuck all the veg in the pot in one go with a hugh amount of oil, boil and spice, blend and finally add water to get the consistency they require.
Perhaps my next base will be made using this approach as it would be fast, sweet and spicy.
Stew
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was able to buy the jaggery easily.
it tastes a bit like the sugar u would expect to make toffee with.
it's got a chance for me (quite different to common brown & white sugars)and will try out in my next base.
i will add as per the ifindforu base recipe - at the cream coconut stage ie towards the end
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i finally plucked up courage to add the jaggery to the base.
i added after the base was cooked and was starting to cool adding a 15mm cube at a time until i felt i'd got just a hint of sweetness (used 4 off 15mm cubes ie 30mm cube in total).
i used my std LB spice mix to cook the curry. the as spec spice mix contains quite a lot of sugar. i found i'd overdone the sweetness having sugar in both the base and spice mix. i would take the sugar out of the spice mix for future which i feel would make the sweetness right.
i appreciate jaggery might not be strictly BIR and it did not affect/improve the actual taste of the base other than the sweetness. however i feel it avoids the sort of "sickly" taste i find with white granular sugar.
so in summary i intend to use in future as standard as this will allow me to remove the white granular sugar from my spice mix which i feel would be better in terms of BIR approach (help with the frying).
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interesting post. i tasted a real bir base, and it was savoury with no trace of sweetness, or that elusive toffee taste we crave. i firmly believe the 'taste' comes not from the base, but what is done at the cooking stage of the dish e.g madras etc. They use much larger quantities of salt , tumeric and spice mix than we do on this site. perhaps 2 to 3 times more per dish! a big tablespoon of salt per dish! and loads more oil. i am hoping to get my second demo soon.
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Hi Derek,
A tablespoon of salt per dish, I'm struggling with that,
I know if I was to put that amount of salt in any curry, whether or not there was any salt in the base, would make the dish pretty much inedible,, :o
Mick
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Hi, i know its slightly unbelievable, but thats what i saw. they had 6 tubs. one was tumeric, one was quality rock salt. they used both very liberally. the other tubs were chilly powder, spice mix , disected coconut, onion, green pepper chopped. the reason for having a separate tub for tumeric is that dishes like bhoona and madras require different quantities of tumeric. therefore they add tumeric in the spice mix, (like we guys do on this site) BUT they can , and do, add tumeric separetely if the dish needs it. i observed them adding this half way through the dish sometimes, to boost the flavour. this was for a boona dish. he explained that the madras is the best to learn, as once you know this, the boona and rogan josh are basically the same with slight variations in amount of spice mix , tom puree, and tumeric. i really need several more demos + a real bir gas cooker. hopefully i will get another demo soon and pass on the tips here. DD
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Derek,
you?re very lucky
i tasted a real bir base, and it was savoury with no trace of sweetness
my interest in "sweetness" came from side by side tasting my "madras" with a TA madras. there is a clear difference - the TA having a sort of hint of sweetness more than mine which is not coming from the onion.
i did mean "a hint" in my post as i do agree savoury (or as I call it Moorish) is what we are aiming for and it's unlikely many BIR's use jaggory due to the cost.
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Hi Jerry, it was lucky tasting a real bir base gravy. Although i did get a strange look from the chef as i poured a ladle of base gravy over the rice! lol. It cleared up a lot of the mystery and endless pondering about what a real base is ilke :). better still this bir is fantastic, and is the best in the area, run by a nice bunch. The chef just said use loads of onion when making the base. I now make safron base with a few more onions than the original recipe (sacriledge!). I actually had a hint of that moorish taste the other day in a really basic madras attempt. but i am buggered if i can repeat it :)
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Derek,
your man's definitely right for me on the onions but having switched to my new gas stove i've realised the amount of reduction "evaporation" at the frying stage has to be taken into account. i'd settled on 70% ish bulk veg in the finished base volume (of which most is onion) c/w to a norm of around 50% in the various base recipes. i'm now thinking the norm is right as the stove seems to reduce the base by 50% (400 to 200ml) c/w with 30% (300 to 200ml) in the past.
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Hi Jerry, does the evaporation improve the taste of the curry with e.g safron base. i am not 'bought' on that idea yet. but could be gently persuaded! cheers DD
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DD,
i feel it is one of the "musts".
Admin's Jalfrezi 1st alerted me to how the extra evaporation generates that moorish taste http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2664.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2664.0.html). Then SnS's madras re enforced it http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2757.msg24504#msg24504 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2757.msg24504#msg24504).
the new gas stove has finally proved it for me as it really boils the water off compared to my electric hob.
getting the onion right is as u say a part of the equation - i aim to get bulk veg back to sort of "100%" in the finished dish so the amount of evaporation your aiming for determines how much thinning with water is needed. if u don't get the evaporation right then the concentration of flavours is not their either.
I?m no food scientist so shout if need me to explain better.
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Thanks Jerry i will give that a go. do you use much fresh green chilly?
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no - i don't use much green chilli. only time at mo is admins jalfrezi which definitely needs it and tastes spot on BIR.
i've got it in mind to try green chilli in the base but have not got to it yet - i make mexican tomato sauce and that has green chillies punctured with a fork - they are then removed after cooking the tom sauce - it works well and thinking of doing same along the theme of adding whole spices (which i do and works well). The trouble is I can't decide on whether to keep them in the base and blend. Also Bobby B has tried and discounted so probably not going to do much for the base. I also don't like the base to be too hot so it's versatile - preferring to add ground chilli at frying stage.
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Bobby B has tried and discounted so probably not going to do much for the base.
Honestly, it does nothing - I couldn't notice a change atall. I did finally get the green chilli taste I wanted however and it's so simply. Just add a whack of coarsely chopped green chillies to your curry about 30 seconds before serving. You're munching away and then bang, green chilli taste. ;D
I can't believe I didn't think about it. The man at the Indian cash and carry suggested it when I told him what I've tried.