Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: Rai on March 22, 2008, 01:08 AM
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How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?
If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water?
Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it?
Will the flavour of the spices still be released ok at 100C and below?
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Rai,
very good topic.
i also think the frying time "appearance" of the spices to be related and would appreciate any thoughts
i'm thinking of frying time not in minutes or secs as this i think depends on the power of the cooker and the amount of water in the paste - i'm specifically thinking on the lines of what to look for.
currently i fry the watered down spice paste until the water has almost gone ie the runny liquid paste has returned more to a sort of stodgy paste and the bubbles create craters as opposed to escaping without changing the surface as is the case when the paste has just been added. i do this as i find it difficult to decide when the toffee/choking smell is at it's best.
for info i've used the following as the basis for the frying technique
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html)
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Yes, thanks jerry, id say its a very fundamental question isnt it.
Having said that, im not sure what temperature they need to get to from your answer jerry? Sounds to me like they cant get much above 90C with the method you describe? Can you elaborate please?
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Rai,
did you see the link about frying - it is pretty good.
what i think i'm saying is that the spices do get hotter than 100c. i don't know how much hotter and i believe that's what u, me and all are wanting to find out as it answers the question on whether a burner will give the smokey taste. the post suggests it will.
why i say this is that i get better results the higher i turn my hob up (i started using setting 3 then to 4 and now at 5 and aiming for 6). also when i'm frying the spices steam is coming off all the time (the water that i've previously added to make the spice mix paste). the limitation only seems to be on my cooking ability to avoid burning the spices. so for me time as well as temp is key.
what i'm searching for is that the BIR/TA cook does not rely on a thermometer or a timer ie uses experience so he must be looking for something to say "spices cooked".
what does the spice mix look like at this point - for me currently when i see craters - but is this right eg i may be cooking the spice too much. i know if i cook too much further beyond this point the spices burn
We need help and let?s hope the post delivers it.
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Yes I saw it thanks jerry.
How do you know the spices get hotter than 100C (on a 3kW domestic hob)? Ive measured it with an infra red pyrometer and I can tell you that they won't if (and once) there is water present.
The question is simple therefore. Is cooking spices at 100C or below sufficient to fully release their flavours or not (irrespective of what they might look like in the process)?
Im suprised that such a fundamentally important question has attracted such little response so far. So I thank you for your responses jerry.
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Isn't cooking spices the same as cooking anything? I don't feel heat is as large a factor in curry making as some people make out, surely if you can't get extreme high heat -which could burn the spices- then simply cook the spices out at a lower temperature for a longer time.
In my opinion, how you cook the spices doesn't really matter, what matters is whether or not you are able to tell when a spice is cooked sufficiently, either by sight or by smell, which involves technique, palate and to some degree cooking experience :-\
As I have said before, in the early 80's there were an awful lot of small takeaways opened and they didn't use great big burners or huge ranges to cook on, just a bog standard kitchen cooker, yet they all had the taste and smell ::)
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surely if you can't get extreme high heat then simply cook the spices out at a lower temperature for a longer time
Noooooooooooooooo Domi :o
The flavour of spices is produced by them releasing their volatile organic essential oils isnt it? These essential oils volatilise at a certain minimum temperatures. You can cook the spices for days (at say 60C) but you wont get much flavour out of them! They need to be heated to higher than the temperature at which their oils volatilise. I presume this may be below 100C for some of them but certainly above 100C for others of them?
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Then why do most authentic dishes require a far longer cooking time, Rai?
As far as I'm concerned the Indians have a far better understanding of the spices than I do and most available information suggests that roasting ground spices over a low heat for a minute or so to get the best flavour out of them :-\ which kinda pours scorn on the heat theory, doesn't it Rai? ???
Far better to know when you've gotten the best out of your spices than to have an exact temperature for cooking them IMO ;) and that knowledge comes with experimentation, cooking skill and palate. :)
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Then why do most authentic dishes require a far longer cooking time, Rai?
I dont know domi, why do they? What temperatures and what times do they require then?
As far as I'm concerned...most available information suggests that roasting ground spices over a low heat for a minute or so to get the best flavour out of them :-\ which kinda pours scorn on the heat theory, doesn't it Rai? ???
Does it Domi? What temperatures do you think this roasting gets to then? Well above 100C I suggest? And how do you think it compares to powdered spices in a water medium? Well under 100C I suggest?
See my point Domi? Maybe you dont see it as a relevant question (judging by your tone)? Hopefully Im mistaken :-\
Or maybe youre saying that you think these oils are released well below 100C? You may be right.
Far better to know when you've gotten the best out of your spices than to have an exact temperature for cooking them IMO and that knowledge comes with experimentation, cooking skill and palate
And how can you possibly tell that if you dont know what minimum temperatures they need to be taken to? :-\
My point is that if the spices need to see greater than about 85C to maximise the release of their flavour (oils), then it might never ever happen (on a domestic hob) if you do anything other than add the powdered spices to the hot oil (>>100C) before adding anything else
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Dry roasting spices may get them to a higher temperature, however they are cooked for a very short time, spices in a water base are usually cooked for far longer, which is the same process taken over a longer time period to produce whatever change. All other ingredients in a curry contain water which will affect temperature too yet I have never read or heard of anyone specifying that to roast spices, it must be done at well over 100/200/300/400 degrees, on the contrary a low heat is most usually specified (if indeed a heat is specified at all). Please don't ask me to provide evidence, it's generally well documented.
Many people prefer sun-dried spices and vegetables, because they have a better depth of flavour for having the longer, lower temperature drying than oven or heat-based methods which can damage the taste-inhibitors in the spice itself. This also leans more towards my point than yours, however, we may also have to agree to disagree. You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol ;)
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You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol ;)
Domi Domi Domi, this isnt about "personal taste", it's about food science! I assume that there is a minimum temperature at which the essential oils will be released from the spices. It may be that it happens at all temperatures and that is why spices stored at room temperature eventually lose their flavour over time (in months)
But I feel it is important to know if the powdered spices need to get above 100C to release there oils relatively quickly (in minutes). If so, they need to be added (dry) to the hot oil and not after other water containing ingredients have been added (eg onions) or as a paste in water (maybe as a paste in oil instead?)
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Yes, I did answer the
testicle :o technical points too....but at the end of the day people will decide for themselves whether or not to roast ground spices, use water or oil bases, air-dried, sundried or heat-dried spices, which is where the personal preference reference (try saying that with a gobfull of peanuts!) came into it.
BTW I don't intentionally have a tone, I just like using the name Rai, Rai. :D
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You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol ;)
But I feel it is important to know if the powdered spices need to get above 100C to release there oils relatively quickly (in minutes). If so, they need to be added (dry) to the hot oil and not after other water containing ingredients have been added (eg onions) or as a paste in water (maybe as a paste in oil instead?)
Different ways of cooking can present different tastes in the food, cook the spices to suit your tastes, some prefer to add them using water (which cooks off quickly enough over a med-high heat anyway), some prefer oil....it's horses for courses again I'm afraid. :-\
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Hmmmm, it seems we are not having a very intelligent debate here domi :-\
Are you blonde domi? I am ;)
but at the end of the day people will decide for themselves whether or not to roast ground spices, use water or oil bases, air-dried, sundried or heat-dried spices, which is where the personal preference reference
But domi, this thread is supposed to be about people developing sufficient basic knowledge to make an informed decision and thereby improve their bir curry cooking experience ::)
Would you have people chuck raw whole spices and in at the end prior to serving because thats their "personal preference" too domi? ::)
it's horses for courses again I'm afraid
No its not domi, its about cooking bir curries and replicating them in the home kitchen ::)
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How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?
Spices as in whole or ground?
Some spices have already gone through the high temperature process prior to grinding to a powder, and most essential oils are already released.
If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water?
Not all whole spices are required to be added to hot oil in order to extract their full flavour. Some can be dry roasted prior to grinding. If oil is used to fry whole spices, a good indication to ideal temperature is when a green cardomom sizzles, puffs up and browns within a few seconds. Clearly, some whole spices are more likely to burn than others, so timing is important.
Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it?
If a paste (spice and water) is added to very hot oil, the water will almost immediatley change to steam (100C). Once all the water has evaporated, the temperature of the spice paste will rise very quickly.
SnS ;D
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Spices as in whole or ground?
Both I suppose, but since were talking bir, mainly ground
Some spices have already gone through the high temperature process prior to grinding to a powder, and most essential oils are already released
What do you mean? Why fry them at all then?
a good indication to ideal temperature is when a green cardomom sizzles, puffs up and browns within a few seconds
That's just an indication that the green cardamon has become puffed up and brown sns, no more an no less. Anyway, who fries green cardamoms in a bir curry? :-\
If a paste (spice and water) is added to very hot oil, the water will almost immediatley change to steam (100C). Once all the water has evaporated, the temperature of the spice paste will rise very quickly
Not on a domestic hob it wont, ive measured it and it actually doesnt. Hence my questions
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Hmmmm, it seems we are not having a very intelligent debate here domi :-\
Are you blonde domi? I am ;)
but at the end of the day people will decide for themselves whether or not to roast ground spices, use water or oil bases, air-dried, sundried or heat-dried spices, which is where the personal preference reference
But domi, this thread is supposed to be about people developing sufficient basic knowledge to make an informed decision and thereby improve their bir curry cooking experience ::)
Would you have people chuck raw whole spices and in at the end prior to serving because thats their "personal preference" too domi? ::)
it's horses for courses again I'm afraid
No its not domi, its about cooking bir curries and replicating them in the home kitchen ::)
PMSL ;D Unfortunately for you I'm a fiery red head (at least that's what it said on the bottle :-X). Luckily for you I also have a sense of humour. :P
Sorry, Rai but personal taste is everything I'm afraid, otherwise we would all eat at the same restaurant wouldn't we? (I'm convinced you're blond but must admit I'm intrigued to know if "collars and cuffs" match since you seem to have at least some intelligence. :D :P)
If only it were that simple that each of us would like the same tastes, there'd need only be one base recipe, for starters! -although that might not be a bad thing, judging by available room in my freezer!- Some people may prefer a more raw flavour from their spices, others prefer a more well-rounded, roasted taste and never the twain shall meet...do you see my point? The only way to get the best from your spices is to suit your own palate....pigs and gormands seldom agree, but each is entitled to their opinion, neither side being right or wrong, whatever the majority.
If someone's idea of a fantastic curry involved a half-kilo of chilli powder, who am I to tell them they're wrong? :-[
The only way to get knowledge is to try different ways and settle for what suits you best. It still comes down to personal preference, wouldn't you agree, Rai? ;)
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Some spices have already gone through the high temperature process prior to grinding to a powder, and most essential oils are already released
What do you mean? Why fry them at all then?
Just enough to remove the raw flavour without burning (60 seconds or less?)
a good indication to ideal temperature is when a green cardomom sizzles, puffs up and browns within a few seconds
That's just an indication that the green cardamon has become puffed up and brown sns, no more an no less. Anyway, who fries green cardamoms in a bir curry? :-\
It saves using an infra red temperature probe, which many of us don't have. The oil should be at about 180C.
If a paste (spice and water) is added to very hot oil, the water will almost immediatley change to steam (100C). Once all the water has evaporated, the temperature of the spice paste will rise very quickly
Not on a domestic hob it wont, ive measured it and it actually doesnt. Hence my questions
Too much water in the spice paste or the oil/pan wasn't hot enough before adding the spice paste, perhaps?
A domestic hob (medium gas burner ring) is about 1.8kW and should be ample to heat and maintain oil at 180C when a little spice paste is added. A large gas ring is about 3kW.
SnS ;D
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Some people may prefer a more raw flavour from their spices, others prefer a more well-rounded, roasted taste and never the twain shall meet...do you see my point? The only way to get the best from your spices is to suit your own palate....pigs and gormands seldom agree, but each is entitled to their opinion, neither side being right or wrong, whatever the majority
Noooooooo domi! This question is about the minimum temperatures required to release the flavours of spices! Its not about bl**dy "personal preference" :-\
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Just enough to remove the raw flavour without burning (60 seconds or less?)
Is that an answer to that question? :-\
It saves using an infra red temperature probe, which many of us don't have
So you are just using them to determine the temperature of the oil are you? then ditching them?
The oil should be at about 180C
Why should it be at 180C? Whats the reason? Why use oils with a smoke point well up into about 240C+ then?
Too much water in the spice paste or the oil/pan wasn't hot enough before adding the spice paste, perhaps?
The presence of water and a too feeble hob perhaps more like? That's precisely my point
A domestic hob (medium gas burner ring) is about 1.8kW and should be ample to heat and maintain oil at 180C when a little spice paste is added. A large gas ring is about 3kW
Then clearly you have not measured it. Most people add onions, garlic, ginger and then the powdered spices/spice paste and tomato puree. By which time the pan will be about 85C (ive measured it). Question is, is this hot enough?
Seems to me that some people think that anything will do because its "personal preferance" but, from what I can tell, no one here can actually fully replicate the taste and smell of a bir curry. Is it any wonder i ask myself? ::)
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A domestic hob (medium gas burner ring) is about 1.8kW and should be ample to heat and maintain oil at 180C when a little spice paste is added. A large gas ring is about 3kW
Then clearly you have not measured it. Most people add onions, garlic, ginger and then the powdered spices/spice paste and tomato puree. By which time the pan will be about 85C (ive measured it). Question is, is this hot enough?
Seems to me that some people think that anything will do because its personal preferance but, from what I can tell, noone here can actually fully replicate a the taste and smell of a bir curry. Is it any wonder i ask myself? ::)
Despite having onion, garlic, ginger and tomato paste in the pan, if most of the liquid (from the onion) has evaporated ...
and you're now actually frying the contents
and you havn't overloaded the pan
and your pan is wide enough
and you've got a reasonable size burner
.. then, an oil temperature of 180C should be easily attainable. Now add the spices.
The only reason water is added to the spice mix is to help prevent burning the spices .... if the oil is too hot.
Once you have gained a little more experience, you will find that you can judge when the oil is at the correct temperature and you will then be able to add the ground spices without water.
Hope this helps Rai.
SnS ;D
ps: Only one green cardamom is used to test temperature, but again, with experience this is method is not needed (waste of a good cardamom eh?)
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Noooooooo domi! This question is about the minimum temperatures required to release the flavours of spices! Its not about bl**dy "personal preference" :-\
Then why, when most advice is to roast at low temperatures, are you arguing that more heat is the answer? Wouldn't the general advice then be to roast at a higher temperature even if it meant reducing the cooking time? Since this is not the case one would have to conclude that lower temps and longer times are better. ::)
And to answer your last post, I certainly get the taste and smell of BIR. You won't get the exact same BIR aroma around the house as the smell of a takeaway or restaurant comes from a myriad of dishes, however I get the same smell from a curry as I do when I open a takeaway delivered to the house, which is the most important thing. :)
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Despite having onion, garlic, ginger and tomato paste in the pan, if most of the liquid (from the onion) has evaporated ...
and you're now actually frying the contents
and you havn't overloaded the pan
and your pan is wide enough
and you've got a reasonable size burner
.. then, an oil temperature of 180C should be easily attainable
As I said, you havent measured it. Go and do that and come back and tell me what you found from a position of fact (and REAL experience) and not supposition sns ;
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Rai
Please tell me how you manage to fry onion in oil at 85C.
Are you sure your infra red thingy is accurate?
SnS ;D
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Then why....are you arguing that more heat is the answer?
It seems that youre not comprehending what i am trying to say domi? Im not saying that more heat is the answer (but it may be?). Where have I said that? Try reading my question again.
Im simply asking at what temperatures spices need to ne heated to for them to best release their flavours (when cooking bir curries obviously). You havent answered that question. No one has yet ::)
however I get the same smell from a curry as I do when I open a takeaway delivered to the house, which is the most important thing. :)
My goodness, Im really surprised domi, I really am. Most of us have been trying for years and years to emulate that and still havent got there. ;)
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Please tell me how you manage to fry onion in oil at 85C.
Excellent question sns! ;D
And please tell me how you are also supposed to fry spices at 85C too! ;)
Yes its accurate.
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Please tell me how you manage to fry onion in oil at 85C.
Excellent question sns! ;D
And please tell me how you are also supposed to fry spices at 85C too! ;)
Yes its accurate.
The simple answer Rai, is you can't (onions or spices). :-\
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The simple answer Rai, is you can't (onions or spices). :-\
Exactly sns, hence my question ;)
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The simple answer Rai, is you can't (onions or spices). :-\
Exactly sns, hence my question ;)
"Get youself a bigger hob" is the answer you're looking for perhaps :-\
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"Get youself a bigger hob" is the answer you're looking for perhaps :-\
No thats not the answer im looking for. I REALLY want to know the approximate temperatures that the spices have to get to (when cooking a bir curry) to maximise their release of flavours.
If its 100C or below I (and most of us) dont need bigger hobs.
If its much more than 100C, we might do. And we need to add the spices first (probably not as a paste)
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Rai
Certainly over 100C
Ideally 180C
Definitely not over 200C
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My goodness, Im really surprised domi, I really am. Most of us have been trying for years and years to emulate that and still havent got there. ;)
Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....maybe you haven't read the right threads, Rai? Apologies if that comes across a little sarcastic, but "when in Rome" as they say.... ;)
Maybe, as you seem to have all the paraphernalia, you could experiment and post your findings, hopefully with pictures to illustrate your points? I know I'd be interested to read any results. I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it) even so, given that no two people may be using the exact same spices or indeed the exact same pan with the exact same heat diffusion, so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience, you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right? 8)
It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another, the only way to ensure it's properly cooked is to look and feel at it....it's the same principle with spices...some brands are ground finer than others, how would you compensate for that?
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By which time the pan will be about 85C (ive measured it). Question is, is this hot enough?
Rai,
please explain what you've done and what you've measured so we can understand a little better.
i know what your getting at and i'm 100% attentive - do we all need to buy a propane burner or can we get the BIR taste on our measly standard electric hob (mines is a 1.5kw) or gas hob.
i think the answer is yes but Domi has now got me uncertain.
please use your prob to measure the temp of the hob itself on full wack. i presume you are aiming it inside the pan.
why i ask is i can get my oil smoking on the electric hob, i then add the garlic/ginger paste (the vol/mass is low) and i don't think the temp dips much. i then add the spice mix paste (vol/mass is high) and temp dips but the base of the pan i feel is still or almost the same as the hob. the steam given off by the paste soon slows and the paste then starts to crater - what is the temp at this point (or what does it need to be to have cooked the spices (180c ?, i presume from smokenspices advice). given that the oil must have got near 180 to smoke then surely the spice mix must have also got there (it's only a matter of time as i find the spice burn soon after cratering).
in short i am now gutted - maybe its the oil that's effectively burnt in the BIR that gives the smokey taste (ie before anything is added).
Domi - we need to know more about how you feel you get the BIR taste - have we missed some vital posts
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Curry making for me comes down to finding the right spice blend and techniques to suit your own tastes, Jerry. What suits me may not suit you and vice-versa. I like a fairly robust flavour, whereas you may prefer milder, more subtle tones, so we're never going to match up :-\. For instance, I like to use the seeds from a cardomom pod, others prefer to use a whole pod, cracked. Some use alot of methi, others less, it depends entirely on your tastes, which is why I don't see that heat is a major factor in cooking spices, as long as you know how you prefer your spices to taste and cook them accordingly, which comes with experience and means experimenting until you're satisfied. :-\
Cooking spices is like cooking onions, some prefer a more raw flavour, others prefer a more sweeter, caremelised taste. Chinese food uses intense heat, a stir fry takes only a few minutes to cook, yet with Indian food even when a restaurant is fully prepped it takes around 20 minutes to produce a final curry and that's using warmed pre-cooked chicken and a hot base sauce.
And I've never seen a chef using a thermometer of any kind or at any stage of cooking, it's all in the eye and the nose and you just can't get that from a written recipe :-\ Just as I have never seen a chef measuring out an exact half or quarter teaspoon of something....it's all done by eye. :)
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hi guys/gals
i know what you are saying rai, but do you need to know what temperature to get the spices to to release there oils, if you hab=ve the time to measure the pan then you must be doing something wrong mate cos when i add the spices in to the pan very quick stir add the tomato puree quick stir the spices release the toffee type aroma add the base sauce and this inital hitting of the pan actually raises the temperature of the pan to above 100 C (unmeasured of course ) if you go into the thread i posted on the Rajver vindaloo/madras is the same method.the temperature of the pan/oil will only drop below 100C if there is sufficient water content ie a runny paste, what i am trying to say is that if you as jerry has said with his leccy nob( all 1.5kw) gets the oil to close to 200C assuming that there is possibly 4 tbsp of oil in and you add 1 tbsp of paste the content of the water will not be sufficient to reduce the heat of the oil/pan to below 100C. the water would have evaporated very quickly and the pan/oil temperature therefore increasing very quickly. but to actually document the temperature with a infra red point and tell unless you have someone brave enough to actually be in you kitchen without gas mask for when the aromas are released to point the thermometer and how are they gonna know when the time is right( you know not being able to smell or breathe like ;D)
i suggest you get into you locals kitchen and actually witness it yourself.
a good tip is sort of following the authentic route heat some oil in a pan and add first some mustards seeds and then cummin seeds when they start to pop take that as a guide for whole spices. chilli powder a good guide is that if your eyes start to water and you can bearly breathe. :'(
anyway i do not believe that you can recreate a good bir curry with a thermometer i would try using a good stainless steel spoon! ;D
i always follow the same method as i have posted in the Rajver posting and i also have one of the black steel pans which once heated retains the residual heat for a time if removed from the heat.
i hope i have at least added to the complications, so if you smell toffee then its hot enough and the spices are now doing their job yep......burning so quickly add the base sauce to the pan :)
regards
gary
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This is a really interesting one! I have never burnt the spices and yet I'd say I'd never undercooked them either, but I have certainly had some curries far better than some others I'd rather not mention.
Thinking about it logically though, there is a temperature at which the oils in the spices that give them their flavour will come out. Or is there? The fact that you can smell the spice means that the oil is volatile enough at room temperature to evaporate to some degree? No?
With that said, could it be that they become more volatile when heated and dissolve into the vegetable oil of the curry more and more so with heat until they're burnt? If that's the case, would the flavour of the spice come out more if slowly cooked for a long period of time and it's just that BIRs don't have time? Could this explain why certain spices are added in the base sauce and other not? I'm no chemist and as such am probably way off the mark! I'd be interested to learn however.
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Rai
Certainly over 100C
Ideally 180C
Definitely not over 200C
Well, at least weve got some suggestions now thanks. But why do you say this please whats your rationale?
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Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....
With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it? Even haldi says he still cant do it and doesnt know why. And I beleive he is representative of most of us in that regard.
And whilst we still dont know why, surely we should be receptive to questions like these. Surely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are? Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol? ;)
I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it)
Thats not anal domi its actually a very good point. Isnt that precisely why different whole spices should be roasted individually for different amounts of time (as chris pointed out in another thread). In the context of this discussion, maybe they should also be individually roasted at different temperatures too to maximise the release of their flavours? ;)
so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience
Domi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here? If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice. And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason
you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right? 8)
The simple truth is that most of us (apart from you and one or two others it seems) cant fully produce decent bir curries with the taste and smell at home and they dont know why. And surely we may never know why if we dont understand the basic limititions of a domestic kitchen and particularly if we insist on closing our eyes and minds to questions such as these domi
It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another
Yes i agree domi. But try cooking your cake at 100C and see how far you get? And please dont tell me that its a matter of "personal preference" again domi ::)
Surely the basics have to be right?
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please explain what you've done and what you've measured so we can understand a little better
Excellent suggestion jerry! :D
As you probably know, it was your thread about adding sugar to the lynette baxter spice mix that started me thing about this and prompted my question. I assumed that the spices needed to be fried at far higher than 100C (to release their flavours and fully cook them) and that the sugar in your spice mix would therefore melt and burn. So rather than just speculate, I thought Id go and measure what actually happens in practice.
I have no doubt that most of us struggle to get anywhere near the taste and smell of a DECENT bir curry, when making them at home, although we many of us often kid ourselves that we can.
There are clearly differences between what birs do and what we do (or can do) at home which account for these differences. Otherwise there wouldnt be a difference. And I dont believe that it is entirely down to "experience".
So, I thought i would measure my pan to see how hot it actually got at the front end of making a curry (given yours and santas comments in the other thread).
So i used a 32cm cast iron wok. I heated it on my largest gas ring 12MJ/h (3.3kW)
I used an infrared thermometer to measure how hot the pan was as it started to smoke. It was over 220C (this is the upper limit of my thermometer).
I then added about 4 tablespoons of canola oil and heated it until just started to smoke. It was over 220C.
I then added 1 chopped onion and fried it for 5 to 10 minutes. The temperature of the onion was between 90C and 110C until it began to brown after 5 minutes or so (gas was always on full). Only once the onion began to brown (a visual sign that the temperature was rising, probably because most of the water had evaporated) the temperature rose to 130C to 150C.
I then added a reasonably runny spice paste (water plus ground spices) and the temperature of the ingredients immediately dropped to 80C to 90C and remained there for several minutes (even when the spice paste was "churping" and "cratering" jerry).
I then added uncooked chicken cubes. The temperature of the ingredients dropped to 60C to 90C and never got any hotter.
Hmmmm, now people can pick fault in my rough and ready check and avoid the real question that should be asked (im not asking it again) ;)
i know what your getting at and i'm 100% attentive - do we all need to buy a propane burner or can we get the BIR taste on our measly standard electric hob (mines is a 1.5kw) or gas hob
I think thats premature jerry, until we have answered the original question. Are these temperatures hot enough to fully release the flavours of the spices (damn it! I asked the question again!). Arguable they are?
I think the real problem with weedy domestic cookers is their inability to MAINTAIN a decent high temperature when ingredients are added (clearly, this is the case from my results)
i think the answer is yes but Domi has now got me uncertain
You probably shouldnt be unduly side-tracked by those who are "satisfied" with their results jerry (not if youre after replicating a decent bir curry that is)
please use your prob to measure the temp of the hob itself on full wack. i presume you are aiming it inside the pan
Greater than 220C is all i can say (the upper limit if my thermometer)
in short i am now gutted - maybe its the oil that's effectively burnt in the BIR that gives the smokey taste (ie before anything is added)
I doubt that they burn the oil jerry :o
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Curry making for me comes down to finding the right spice blend and techniques to suit your own tastes
Yes, thats presumably what you mean by "personal preference" domi. But just because you might happen to like (and be satisfied with) sesame oil, chinese teas leaves and porridge oats in your curry (and who can argue with you if you do), it doesnt make it a pucker bir curry does it?
Yes, Im being ridiculous i know, but you might get my point?
And I've never seen a chef using a thermometer of any kind or at any stage of cooking
What about their deep fat fryer domi? Or are you going to try and tell me that its personal preference to cook onion bhajees at 120C because you like them oily and squidgey? ::)
And who can argue with that if you do? But they just dont do it do they?
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hi guys/gals
but do you need to know what temperature to get the spices to to release there oils
Surely it would help gary? Surely we can then consider the process and technique that best facilitates this?
if you hab=ve the time to measure the pan then you must be doing something wrong mate cos when i add the spices in to the pan very quick stir add the tomato puree quick stir the spices release the toffee type aroma add the base sauce
What do you do gary? Do you add the dry powders to the hot oil before you add anything else?
and this inital hitting of the pan actually raises the temperature of the pan to above 100 C (unmeasured of course )
I dont think this is the case gary. I think youre mistaking rapid evaporation of water (from the base) with a temperature rise. The temperature will, in fact, fall to 100C and below (probably a lot below 100C according to my results). But it does seem to indicate that your pan is nice and hot (above 100C) before you add the base.
the content of the water will not be sufficient to reduce the heat of the oil/pan to below 100C. the water would have evaporated very quickly and the pan/oil temperature therefore increasing very quickly
But thats not what i found gary
but to actually document the temperature with a infra red point and tell unless you have someone brave enough to actually be in you kitchen without gas mask for when the aromas are released to point the thermometer and how are they gonna know when the time is right( you know not being able to smell or breathe like ;D)
Im a bit concerned about all this talk of choking and barely being able to breath and gas masks gary. Its not supposed to be chemical warfare attack is it? ;)
Sounds like youre going to have some serious health issues mate! ;)
i suggest you get into you locals kitchen and actually witness it yourself
Yes, i have gary, many times, but not with my thermometer i admit :P
anyway i do not believe that you can recreate a good bir curry with a thermometer i would try using a good stainless steel spoon! ;D
Quite rigth gary, but surely we stand a much better chance by developing a better understanding rather than wallowing in blissful ingnorance? ;)
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hi rai yes i do add the powdered spices to the pan, just as i have been shown by the Rajver chefs. the reason for the choking and not being able to breathe (not myself)my wife and children i have to open the doors and window in the kitchen because when they built our house they decided because the kitchen has a window and a door into the outside world not to fit an extractor hood above the cooker. and the fact i generally cooking a vindaloo or phall, if you have ever tried the method i think it was on chicken tikka where it was done in a very hot frying pan with not much oil and turmeric and chilli powder were the only spices and only a pinch of each were used. the post said beware of using too much chilli or you may be in tears choking before you know it. if you check in the chicken tikka posts it may be there.
another good post to read and follow is the bruce edwards curryhouse cookery, because he says add the spices to the pan and stir allow to sizzle again if you are using 4 tbsp of oil that will be quite easy to do.
just for the record if you add the dry powders to the pan stir quickly and then close you eyes breathe in when you smell the toffee aroma( i keep going on about) (have you thermometer to hand) as soon as the smell hits you open your eyes and pull the trigger. then you will have the answer to your question!
and i do believe that you are a new age bangladeshi chef totting an AK47 point and zap infrared thermometer ;)
regards
gary
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hi rai ofund the post it's called faking chicken tikka
regards
gary
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I have never burnt the spices and yet I'd say I'd never undercooked them either
And never any bitterness in your base either? Remarkable achievement bobby ;)
I know!!! It's probably more likely that I don't know what undercooked spices taste like exactly, and would write it off as a crap curry. I genuinely have never burnt them though... If you manage that on a halogen hob then there's little hope! Oh, and I swear, I've never had a bitter base.
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Hi Rai
Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.
Regards
SnS ;)
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With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it?
So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars? Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too? :-\ For some reason I'm fully expecting you to say that they're only saying that in order not to hurt my feelings, which if you knew Yorkshirefolk, is definitely not the case..They're honest to the bone, as it were.
Just because some people claim to have the exact smell or taste which you yourself cannot produce, does not mean that we have lower standards, it could well mean that some people are better cooks, since they can smell and taste where things are going wrong. The fact that you have had bitter bases does not mean therefore that everyone has, that's measuring people by your own standards isn't it? As I've said before, my sister can't boil an egg and she's been attempting to cook for 35 years! - let's face it Rai, the desire to want to be a good cook is not enough to actually BE a good cook. ;)
You argue every point, yet you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures -I'm assuming any high heat would have a negative effect on the spices or their cellular make-up, otherwise the advice would be the opposite- and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning? Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up? Of course you need higher temperatures to cook certain things, and bhaji do have spices in them, but bhajis are cooked at a higher temperature and the spices are already in a watered-down state in the bhaji mix and so are protected, bhajis are also cooked for only a short time, and you could instantly see when the spices were burning as the bhaji would be burning too. :-\
Surely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are? Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol? ;)
No, I'm not going to disagree with that. However, the best way to understand fully is to experiment yourself. You have to know your ingredients, which are the basics in cooking. Even Michelin starred chefs experiment fully with tastes and textures and cooking methods, it is from our own mistakes that we learn. After all, I know the smell and taste of burnt garlic, because I've smelt and tasted it...and I've only ever burnt it once! but if someone doesn't know that smell or taste, how the hell can I tell them via text what that smell or taste is?
Domi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here? If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice. And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason
I could use the same argument in reverse, Rai, if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves. If someone has a bad palate, they're not going to be able to taste properly, and you can't teach someone a taste from your own perspective, they have to taste it themselves to know that taste according to their own palate, which is where personal preference comes into it, Rai. I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes, since most BIRs have their own taste, no two ever taste or look exactly the same, and we use our own personal preferences (there, I said it again :P ) to judge what is or is not right for our palates. The tastes we try to replicate are not the curryhouses we avoid like the plague, rather the opposite, wouldn't you agree? So how hot you have to get the spices for your own tastes is up to you...Personally I prefer to cook at a medium heat for longer than a top notch heat (where the risk of burning would be much higher, and would cause bitterness) because I like a well rounded albeit more robust flavour from my curries, and I cook my spices to suit that. Which is possibly why I have had more success than others who blindly follow a recipe to the letter each and every time they cook it, therefore replicating whatever mistakes each time and getting a lesser standard of curry at the end of it?
How easy it would be if to get a good curry all you had to do is flash fry your spices at 200 degrees for twenty seconds (I've never seen a chef checking his watch to know when it's time to add more ingredients either ::) ) Surely if you want to cook like a BIR chef, you have to know the ingredients like an BIR chef? The more you cook and experiment, the more used to the ingredients you become. I'll bet the first time anyone made a curry on this forum they followed a recipe to the letter, measuring out exactly the quantities needed, whereas someone who has been cooking the same recipes for years will use more "freehand" methods. I think you sometimes overcomplicate issues. A novice cook may get good results following a recipe, but over time will change or alter the recipe to suit either their techniques or understanding of the ingredients, both of which you need a practical experience of, rather than reading it from a book or a post on a forum.
Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees, it will just take an awfully long time to cook. Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures, the trick is to know when they have reached their peak ::) unless you know that, the temperature is a moot point. :-\
You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods, but the smell is the all-important focus, and I can't properly describe that smell, but once you have smelt it once, you know it forever :) but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai.
So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!
Does a bad tradesman always blame his tools? 8)
I rest my case ;D
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hi domi
but how hot is that? ;)lol
rai the whole spices/seeds are slow roasted to release the oils prior to grinding as it makes it easier. you fry the powder to cook out the rawness as i'm sure you wouldnot just mix the in with the base as we all know. as for the comment i made about the base sauce being added to the pan increases the temperature for maybe a couple of seconds if that.
again when you smell toffee pull the trigger and zap the pan! :o ;)
regards
gary
this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread ::)
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I think that sums it all up quite nicely Domi.
SnS ;)
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Gary/Domi,
The discussion on the toffee i feel is getting us in the right direction. i am currently thinking i need to buy a propane wok burner to get the smokey BIR taste. now i'm not so sure.
a couple of questions in my mind which would help me, my buddy Rai and i would say many others a lot:
1) do you have a feel on if it's a specific spice or are there a few essential spices needed to get the toffee smell
2) is the toffee smell only produced from the spices ie does the tom puree not have a contribution
3) i think i get the toffee smell (a choking vapour i call it) but how long do you need to keep frying at this point - is there anything else to look for. i'm sort of searching for where your 2 methods differ ie hot fry works in say 5mins whereas slow fry works in 20 mins
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hi domi
but how hot is that? ;) lol
:o Oh Parker! Parker! Parker! :-[ and you were so close to becoming one of my new heroes too! ::) ;D...Tell me, Parker....how hot do you like it? :P the temperature I mean! ::) :D LOL
this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread ::)
Then would it be possible for someone to set up a canteen offering hot soup and toasted muffins? ;D (I said MUFFINS, SecretSatan ::) :P )
I think that sums it all up quite nicely Domi.
SnS ;)
Thanks SnS....Somehow I don't feel quite so insane after all lol ::)
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Rai,
I then added a reasonably runny spice paste (water plus ground spices) and the temperature of the ingredients immediately dropped to 80C to 90C and remained there for several minutes (even when the spice paste was "churping" and "cratering" jerry).
I then added uncooked chicken cubes
my thinking is still not joined up. your hob is clearly running at more than 220. are you sure that the paste when churping & cratering does not continue to increase in temp very quickly once the steam has pretty much stopped with the temp heading weigh over 100C. i say this as i always chicken out at this point expecting to burn the spices - it might be the case (given the evidence that the spices with experience can be added direct to oil ie not in a water paste.) that i should continue to cook at this point to get more in the way of the toffee vapour (i don't have to open the windows like gary has to).
I doubt that they burn the oil
if above is not true ie churping & cratering towards 180c does not produce greater toffee vapour then hobs must be fine and we need another explanation.
what i was getting at with the oil is i don't recycle any from the base and maybe i should to use at the frying stage to get the smokey BIR flavour
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Hi Jerry
The sudden drop in oil temperature is caused by water evaporating (latent heat of vapourisation). Once the water in the spices has all turned to steam (evaporated), the oil and spices should rise in temperature very quickly. This is where the experience bit comes in - ie: not to allow the temperature to rise too high, too quick.
To avoid over-cooling the cooking oil the spices should be mixed with a little water to make a thick paste, or preferably with oil (as this doesn't evaporate and won't overcool the oil).
SnS ;D
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SnS,
thanks for info which is appreciated. hope u don't mind me pushing it a little further:
1) so once the steam's gone give the toffee smell a bit longer but not too much
2) do you think personally a wok burner gets closer to the BIR taste than a hob
3) is the oil reclaim worth anything in terms of getting that smokey BIR flavour
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Rai,
have a read through this post which i think has almost all that anyone could want to know (except for the last 3 questions asked of SnS).
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2041.40.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2041.40.html)
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SnS,
thanks for info which is appreciated. hope u don't mind me pushing it a little further:
1) so once the steam's gone give the toffee smell a bit longer but not too much
2) do you think personally a wok burner gets closer to the BIR taste than a hob
3) is the oil reclaim worth anything in terms of getting that smokey BIR flavour
Hi Jerry
1) Once the steam has gone and the temperature has started to rise, the full flavour and aroma of the spices will be released (the toffee smell). A few seconds frying at this higher temperature is all that is needed (time, in seconds, is dependant on actual temperature). Easiest thing to do is burn the spices - and that will taste bitter.
Ideally, the spices should be stirred in without water (or with perhaps a little oil).
2) No, but my largest gas ring is 3kW which I know is large enough to maintain a high enough cooking temperature.
3) I prefer to keep the spiced oil with the base gravy (stirred in and shared amongst the portions). Again this is only personal choice.
Regards
SnS ;D
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SnS,
many thanks, sorted for me ;D
i've realised having re read gary's post that i need to move back to just using finely chopped garlic at the start of the frying. i found this produces closer taste than garlic/ginger paste but at the time could not crack the frying to get the garlic soft without burning - now using medium heat am confident i can, then increase to full for the spice mix. will give the oil a go for my next paste.
best wishes.
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I know a good way to use the ground spices without adding oil or water, Jerry -tested and works- Finely chop the onion as per quantity needed in the recipe, pre-cook all apart from a couple of tablespoons, used to make the paste - Make a paste of the tomato puree, a couple of tablespoons of finely chopped onion (raw), finely chopped garlic & grated ginger and chilli, mix them all together well and get your pan hot, once it's hot, (you need the paste to sizzle on impact) add one to two tablespoons veg oil and throw in the tomato,onion,garlic,ginger and chilli mix and stir fry briskly for a minute or two until the onion has cooked and softened (you should notice the toffee-like aroma starting). It's important to keep the mix on the move as it can stick and burn due to the caremelising effect on the sugars in the raw onion and tomato puree.....next add your spice mix, keeping it on the move until the full toffee aroma hits you (it doesn't take very long, around 30 secs) as soon as you get the toffee smell, whack in your chicken, stir-frying it into the spicy mixture (you may need to turn down the heat until you're sure the chicken is cooked through enough, to avoid burning the spices, next in with the pre-cooked onions (they should still be warm), raise the heat again if you turned it down to get the pan back up to temp, then in with the warmed base (I never use it from cold) then continue and make the curry as you would. I never fail to get the toffee aroma this way (or the lovely orangey oil that's left on BIR plates after the meal) ;) and if you want an extra bit of smokey flavour, char your peppers (if using).
Also when I've finished my curry, I let it sit, covered while I make the rice/sides, as the oil rises so it can be reclaimed (if you're that way inclined) or stirred back in (if that's your bag). :)
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Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.
Yes, i can and will do that. It seems like a sensible thing to do. Ill also do it with a paste in oil and with just adding dry powders too.
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So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars?
Keep your red hair on domi :o Im saying exactly what I said. Although some people are satisfied with their curries (we all have different expectations and goals) it doesn't mean that they can fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry. If you say you can I take my hat off to you because I (and I am sure most others here) cant and are humble and realistic enough to recognise and admit it.
Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too? :-\
Yes, they often are mistaken domi (but maybe not yours)
you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures
Is that really the consensus domi? Even if it is, you still havent defined what "low" temperatures mean domi? "Low" is relative and means nothing to me. Its also only addressing roasting whole spices isnt it? What about ground spices?
and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning?
By "chefs" do you mean the members her domi? Or pat chapman? Where is it "documented"? As if thats any sort of "proof" anyway?
Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up?
Why do you say ive concluded that domi? Im simpply asking the questions hoping for sensible and informed answers :-\
I could use the same argument in reverse
Yes, im sure you can domi
if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves
Oh come now, do they tell you to do that with bread? :o No, of course not, they indicate the sort of temperature and time thats required to cook it properly.
I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes
Of course "taste" is a matter of personal opinion domi. But I "scoff at"(question actually) your suggestion that how to cook spices is a matter of "personal preference" domi. The basic science has to be correct and followed irrespective of "personal preference"
Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees
Actually domi, these are not at all analogous. These are chemical reactions whereas the release of flavours from spices is largely a physical (transport) process aided by TEMPERATURE ::)
Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures
I challenge you to burn spices at 20C domi ;)
You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods
I can see how gary gets it domi. He adds ground spices directly to hot oil as the first step. But how do you get it? Im not sure youve said? :-\
but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai
I think youve completely missed several points through you stubborness domi. This section (and my question) is designed to provide guidelines to beginners to help them cook curries successfully. I fail to see how youre helping that cause?
So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!
Has anyone actually said that you cant domi? :-\
I rest my case ;D
And if I could only tell what your "case" was! ::)
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but how hot is that? ;)lol
I think youre being very facitious gary but its and obvious and reasonable question to ask. What temperature is "low" domi please? :-\
rai the whole spices/seeds are slow roasted to release the oils prior to grinding as it makes it easier
Why are we talking about whole spices gary? Most people use commerically ground spices dont they? These arent roasted (mostly) they are simply ground
this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread ::)
Is it a problem if it does? Im sure that people will stop contibuting if they arent interested ;)
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edited by SnS
This is a serious question deserving a sensible answer that is helpful and meaningful to a beginner to this forum. So maybe we should restate my original question and summarise the more relevant responses so far?
How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?
If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water?
Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it?
Will the flavour of the spices still be released ok at 100C and below?
So the three questions in a nutshell are:
- How hot do I have to get the spices?[
- Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else?
- Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C?
And some relevant answers (in a much bigger nutshell):
- Noone seems to know (for sure) how hot the spices need to get to best extract most flavour from them in a reasonable time
- Most people think that its the combination of temperature and time thats important (but they havent said what combination of temperatures and times)
- Sns thinks it is above 100C below 200C and ideally 180C (but hasnt said why)
- Some people (eg domi) think that heat is not such an important factor in cooking spices anyway
- Some people (eg domi) say whole spices need to be roasted at "low" temperatures (but hasnt said what temperatures "low" are)
- Some people (eg domi) think that other indicators (eg sight or smell) should be used to tell when the spices are cooked (but she is unable to describe this to anyone else)
- Some people (eg domi) think that its all about "personal preference" (some people like raw spices) and that others must "decide for themselves" how best to cook them
- Some people (eg domi) think that heating at 100C is ok because you can add spices to water to extract their flavour (good point). You just need to heat them for longer
- Some people (eg sns, bobby) question whether ground spices need to be heated at all because prior processes will have released their volatile oils anyway
- Some people (eg sns, gary) think that the main reason that ground spices need to be cooked is to remove the rawness
- Noone (accept for me because ive actually measured it) seems to actually know what temperatures their pan or ingredients get to
Some alternative methods for frying ground spices:
- Some people (eg gary) fry the ground spices in hot oil before adding other (water containing) ingredients (the temperature in this case is likely to be significantly above 100C)
- Many people fry other (water containing) ingredients before frying the spices (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
- Some people (eg jerry) add the ground spices as a water paste (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
- Some people (who?) add the ground spices as an oil paste (the temperature may get above 100C quicker than if they are in water ? an assumption to be verified)
Some other techniques for telling when the spices are cooked:
- Most people tell when the spices are cooked by indirect means (appearance, craters and churpupping, toffee smell, choking, streaming eyes, etc)
- Most people ?assume? that the spices have been fried at temperatures above 100C (they say that can tell this by experience and they don?t need to measure anything. They also routinely tread on rice paper without tearing it apparently. Their guests are suitably impressed and assure their hosts that they are far better than any bir they have ever been to)
- Some people (eg jerry) get better results using higher temperature settings on their cookers
- Some people (eg sns, jerry) assume that any water evaporates rapidly and the temperature of their pan rises ?quickly? to be above 100C
Some other views:
- Some people (eg domi) claim to be able to fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (I hope she is able to describe how to do this to others then)
- Some people (eg me) cant fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (close, but not up there with the best. But my guest are equally impressed for what its worth)
- Some people (eg domi, gary) dont believe that a thermometer is a useful kitchen tool (I presume they also have no temperature settings or timers on their ovens then or any other appliance then)
Conclusions to the questions so far:
- How hot do I have to get the spices? - Unclear, somewhere between room temperature and around 200C
- Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else? - Unclear, some people do and some people dont. The spices will get much hotter (and may burn) if you do
- Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C? - Probably, but probably need to heat them for longer (for how long though is unclear)
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Domi,
thanks for your post. it was for me very well timed.
i was thinking on from what SnS said and was intending cooking my finely chopped raw garlic on medium heat (to avoid it burning before cooking through) and then turn the hob up to full and just as the oil starts to smoke add a thicker spice paste (i normally make as a runny 1/2 a cup or 12 ish tbsps - which splits into 9 tbsp water, 2 tbsp tom puree and 2 tsp spice).
i was concerned that the garlic would burn whilst waiting for my slow hob to get up to oil smoke temp. your method would sort this.
i am on curry kings CTM tonight using ifindforu base and will try the new method. i would have liked to try on my std madras where i think the need for toffee is more important (CK CTM is 100% spot on - i'd say better than most BIR as the smokey factor is not as prevalent in CTM)
edited by SnS
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Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.
Yes, i can and will do that. It seems like a sensible thing to do. Ill also do it with a paste in oil and with just adding dry powders too.
I look forward to reading your results Rai.
SnS ;D
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Yes as a beginner , I'd like to know the answers to those questions too!
Some clear guidance to me as a beginner would be much appreciated .
Thanks for asking those questions Rai !
I don't know whether I should add the spices to hot oil before I add anything else or as a paste ???
I don't want to burn them , but I do want to get the most flavour from them .
The answers I hope will help me , from your collective wisdom .
edited by SnS
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Domi ,
irrespective of his perceived tone ,(which I don't really see being anything other than a little direct and impersonal), I'd still like to know the answers to the questions he poses or can't anyone actually give an answer ?
Hi Apprentice
I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered.
In summary:-
1) The spice powder requires heat to release flavour, aroma and remove the "rawness". Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C and the spices fried for a few seconds. If it is hotter than this then you risk burning the spices. Below this temperature and you will require a slightly longer period of frying. If the oil is too cool, the spices wont fry at all. The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring. The frying time (in seconds) will vary depending on oil temperature, quantity and type of spices (plus other less influencing factors).
2) If you add water (as in spice paste) into hot oil there will be a cooling effect caused by a) the water being at a lower temperature than the oil and b) the evaporation of water into steam (this being the greatest cooling effect of the two). The cooling effect (b) remains until all the water has evaporated. If you add oil/spice paste to hot oil the cooling effect will be much less as there is no evaporation. If you add only spices (no water, no oil) to hot oil the cooling effect will be almost negligible.
SnS ;D
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Domi ,
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what is roughly considered a low temperature . And I am genuinely interested - especially as a beginner ( and this is the beginners section here isn't it? ) .
edited by SnS
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Hi Apprentice
I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered.
In summary:-
1) The spice powder requires heat to release flavour, aroma and remove the "rawness". Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C and the spices fried for a few seconds. If it is hotter than this then you risk burning the spices. Below this temperature and you will require a slightly longer period of frying. If the oil is too cool, the spices wont fry at all. The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring. The frying time (in seconds) will vary depending on oil temperature, quantity and type of spices (plus other less influencing factors).
2) If you add water (as in spice paste) into hot oil there will be a cooling effect caused by a) the water being at a lower temperature than the oil and b) the evaporation of water into steam (this being the greatest cooling effect of the two). The cooling effect (b) remains until all the water has evaporated. If you add oil/spice paste to hot oil the cooling effect will be much less as there is no evaporation. If you add only spices (no water, no oil) to hot oil the cooling effect will be almost negligible.
SnS ;D
Thank you SnS ,
that is much more helpful ,
however , how will I know when the spices have reached the required temperatures ? And how will I know if I have cooked it for long enough OR over cooked it ?
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Thank you SnS ,
that is much more helpful ,
however , how will I know when the spices have reached the required temperatures ? And how will I know if I have cooked it for long enough OR over cooked it ?
There is no definitive answer, but the aroma is probably the best indication. Spices will also darken (but not black - or it's burnt!). Try frying spice powders only (not paste) in hot oil, for 30 seconds (stirring continuously) and work from there. Unfortunately this does take practice. Whole spices will take much longer, some more than others.
SnS ;D
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There is no definitive answer, but the aroma is probably the best indication. Spices will also darken (but not black - or it's burnt!). Try frying spice powders only (not paste) in hot oil, for 30 seconds (stirring continuously) and work from there. Unfortunately this does take practice. Whole spices will take much longer, some more than others.
SnS ;D
Thanks SNS , you have been very helpful again , I will take that knowledge into the kitchen with me and start practicing ...
Happy Currying :)
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edited by SnS
i followed Domi's instructions and near frightened the life out of me. my wife had to open the back door (amazing what can be done when in need - have noted it for future reference). i was far too happy to be worried given i was choking my head off. dying happy why not.
i made Curry Kings CTM (made 4 times now - all spot on - you won't beat it in a restaurant). i used my mid size pan ie the wok (due to the volume of sauce demanded by family). i put 3 tbsp veg oil and left it on the hob on full (setting 6) until it was smoking. i put the garlic/tom puree mix in and ran (well that was my 1st instinct) i fried it until i dared no longer (how long ~1 min max). i need someone by me with a stop watch to be sure as believe me your not thinking of time or temp at that moment in time. i then chucked the dry spice in and continued to fry - choking almost immediately (how long cooking 30 secs max). this was when my good lady opened the back door. i then added 1/2 ladle of base and fried off again (30 secs). added rest of base and turned down to low (setting 2) and continued with rest of ingredients.
was the BIR taste there i hear u ask. well no. for me the BIR taste i'm after won't show through in CTM (it doesn?t in the BIR restaurant or takeaway either). i need to try this on a madras as this is the type of dish where the BIR taste for me exists.
i summary i'm now settled on this technique for cooking spices (i particularly liked how the fresh garlic held the tom puree together so that it could be delivered to the pan speedily much in the same way as paste but of course without that extra water - ingenious). i got a big improvement via the previous method when i 1st got the toffee smell. what i now realise was that it wasn?t enough only a sort of puff rather than an hurricane which i got tonight. i am convinced that this will deliver the smokey BIR taste where it's needed (the evaporated milk and cream coconut mask it in a CTM) ie madras etc
it's been a riveting post and am very, very appreciative to all.
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Thanks for giving it a go Jerry :)
I'd be careful about getting the oil too hot though before you add the tomato/chilli/g&g/onion paste, I only add around a tablespoon of oil directly to a red hot pan and throw the paste in on top of the oil then stir fry and keep it moving around the hotter edges of the pan (less chance of burning that way too) then I add the spices after a minute or so (when the toffee-like smell is, as you say more of a puff, the full aroma comes after the spices are added, then quickly add the chicken (only adding base/fried onion to lower the temp in the pan if needed). I never pre-cook the chicken either, unless it's a CT dish of course :P
BTW a scant quarter tsp of La chinata smoked paprika adds to the toffee-smell if you add it to the tomato/onion etc paste ;). Just my personal preference, some like it, others don't but it's always good to experiment I say. :)
One more thing I do is to add 2 good chef's pinches of kasuri methi, crushed between my fingers (follows on from Haldi's finger-sniffing post earlier lol) into my curry spice mix, I believe it really does add to the taste and smell....again, my opinion only, I don't know what kind of taste you're actually looking for and bear in mind I do like a more strongly flavoured curry (it's a northern thing, I think lol). ;)
If nothing else, it certainly clears your sinuses ;D but parker21 did warn you :D
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I look forward to reading your results Rai.
No problem, ill get to it soon 8)
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I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered
In summary
Maybe also see mine which summarises all (not just sns's) opinions on the subject http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2548.msg22533.html#msg22533
I think you will see that opinions are all over the place.
Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C
Why do you say that please?
The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring
For crying out loud. What is this aversion to measuring the temperature (however you do it use stale crusty bread for all i care but please provide meaningful practical advice)?
This advice is quite different from what domi has been saying ("low heat") isnt it?
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Now youre arguing against yourself domi. Or dont you use a timer? Just sniff the air huh
No Rai....A timer is useless if your cooker temperature gauge is wrong. Since it's commonly known that not all cooker gauges are set exactly, an exact cooking time really helps no-one, you have to cook a cake (or spices) until they're cooked, knowing when they're cooked comes with experience. A cake may look cooked, but when you take it out of the oven the drop in temperature will make the cake sink, so testing by smell and touch is important, no matter how you scoff. Since this thread is in the beginner's section, it's important to point that out as we all use different equipment, you have to know your own equipment and ingredients and how to get the best out of them, just the difference in cooking pans can make a huge difference, i.e. hot spots, heat retention, even the size of a pan can have some positive/negative effect on a dish....it's not as easy as getting an exact temperature.
I don't think anyone has an aversion to testing temperatures, but you really do have to be careful when stating exact times and temperatures as you could quite easily burn or undercook something by not taking into account the factors above :-\ (unless you're going to measure the pan temperature constantly, and you just don't have time for that (nor would I have the inclination lol). Again, you have to know when something is cooked properly....if a new cook were to cook Blade's chicken tikka, the recipe states to cook for 4 minutes either side then rest for 4 minutes, but depending on someone's grill it may take twice as long per side, and I'd hate for anyone to go down with salmonella by following an exact time :-X Knowing how to tell when your chicken is cooked is the all important thing, not necessarily just the time and temperature.
Strictly following times and temperatures can be dangerous, as any new cook needs to know, surely it's fundamental? :-\
Or am I wrong again, Rai? :P
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Originally posted by Rai...
It comes down to an approximate time at an approximate temperature domi
Thank you for finally accepting that, recipes are guidelines, knowing when things are cooked is most important, which comes with experience and is exactly what I and others have stated in this thread....
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Hi All
I have removed some offensive comments (and related replies) and deleted some "off topic" posts from this thread.
Regards
SnS ;D
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The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring
For crying out loud. What is this aversion to measuring the temperature (however you do it use stale crusty bread for all i care but please provide meaningful practical advice)?
This advice is quite different from what domi has been saying ("low heat") isnt it?
Hi Rai
You appear almost possessed with knowing the ideal oil temperature. Temperature is a number only and means nothing in this context as it is not (normally) going to be measured while you are cooking. However, I have already said that it should be ABOUT 160 to 180C.
When you fry an egg, do you measure the oil temperature before you crack the egg into the pan? No, of course not.
If the oil temperature causes the egg to jump around the pan and the oil to splutter all over the kitchen, you turn the heat down.
If the egg just sits there winking defiantly back at you ;), and doesn't show any signs of cooking, you turn the heat up.
At no stage do you reach for a thermometer to measure the oil temperature. You know through experience what an egg looks like when it's being fried. The same applies to frying anything else, whether this be egg, chips, sausages or even spices.
SnS ;D
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Aye what smokenspices said :)
Boiling an egg is a good example, we know that water boils at 100 degrees celcius, but does knowing that fact alone allow for a perfectly cooked egg? The answer is no....there are many other factors which come into the equation, size of egg, temperature of the egg - has it been kept in the fridge or at room temperature - number of eggs being used etc etc, it all has to be taken into account or you could end up with a hard-boiled rather than a soft-boiled finish (or raw in some cases) so how do we learn to boil an egg? by doing it and learning from our mistakes (if any are made, that is).
The fact is , not everyone can boil an egg ::) I doubt Delia would have bothered making it a subject in her "how to cook" book/series....there are many ways to boil an egg, 4 minute, 5 minute etc we choose which way suits us best...there are foolproof ways to boil an egg, however we can all be sure that a fool will cock it up somewhere along the line ::)
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Originally by Pappa Dom
Personally, I think it would be helpful if people could not only elaborate a little more on the ballparks temperatures and times (and their reasoning) but also on the other ways (visible, olfactory, etc) of telling when the ground spices are actually cooked properly. I think Apprentice touched on this and suggested a more detailed explanation may also help her.
Hi Pappa ;) Don't be scared ;) I've got me muzzle on ;D
The trouble is, there is no hard and fast rule. Having an exact time or temperature makes little difference for the factors I have posted above. I have never read in any cookbook any guide which tells you what temperature exactly a "low heat" is, or any other heat for that matter. Deep fat fryers and ovens have temperature gauges, gas rings/electrical hobs don't usually, but they do have markings showing low, medium and high. I'm afraid I and most cookery books assume that everyone would know or have some approximation of what "a low heat" means, and I'd suggest you start there and either turn the heat up if needed or down if such be the case.
All recipes tell you an approximate cooking time or what to look out for (in this case, the toffee-like aroma which I and others have described, once you smell it, you'll know it forever ;) and there are different ways to achieve this, you must try the different ways and settle on a technique which suits you or in your opinion gives the best results. ;)
If you read up on roasting spices, the general consensus is to roast over a low heat until the spices give out their aromas, no doubt if there were a hard and fast rule they would state warm your pan to X degrees before adding the spices, but the cookbooks tell you to rely on your other senses (smell in this case). Obviously if you have no sense of smell, this is going to be a bit of a bugger lol :o
You have to learn to trust your nose, but the more you use the spices, the better you'll be able to tell.
No doubt Heston Blumenthal would know the best temperature for each individual spice to release their aromas, (perhaps Rai could e-mail him since the issue seems of such importance) but we're not all that anal about it are we? I mean I like chicken tikka but I'll be buggered if I'm gonna dig a pit in my back garden like Heston did, I'll stick to Blade's chicken tikka recipe and method thank you very much ;D
Don't forget, we use spice mixes so individual spice times are irrelevant, the best way to tell is with your nose and I'm afraid that comes with experience. Smell your raw spice mix, then keep smelling it as you heat it, (same for roasting spices pre-curry making or in the actual curry-making process itself) if there is little or no change in aroma, turn the heat up slightly (continuing with only slight increases if enough heat is not generated), you should be able to tell when it's burning by the aroma...but when you get that toffee-like hit, you have to move fast as it is not far off the burning stage (as I believe parker21 stated in an earlier post).
BTW if you haven't tried Blade's tikka recipe, you really must, it's delicious! ;) ;D
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well said domi
as i read down your posting regarding boiling an egg,never guess who sprang to mind....and there you said it and big smile crossed my face ( why didn't we think of that earlier) and a chuckle, good old delia!!
i have a little experiment rai this will tell you if spices release their aroma above or below 100C.
boil a kettle (we all know that water boils at 100C)
when it has boiled, having already measured out say 2 dsp of you spices mix/chilli powder
add the water to the spices and stir well.put the pan on full power on what ever cooking device you use and wait for the aroma to change.the spices will only release the aroma when the water content has evaporated ie in excess of 100C. i know cos i just did it. i know that because the temperature of the water was already 100C having just boiled it this was boilng in excess of 3 mins. i was using a nonstick frying pan. in the time for the water to boil away ther was no spices release, so i conclude that the spices need to be added to the pan of hot oil directly as a BIR chef would do as documented in most of the demos.
my biggest suggestion to all newbies is to read and take in the methods written by Bruce Edwards Curryhouse cookery which i have said many many many times but it all seems to fall on deaf ears! the oil should be hot enough to sizzle either garlic/ fine chopped peppers or onion as it hits the pan allow to sizzle for approxiamtely before adding the spice mix this should be stirred in well and again allowed to sizzle ( or as i have mentioned in my Rajver posts when adding the fine chopped garlic to the pan it will sizzle and start to float this is the time to remove the pan from the heat to add the spices so the oil is not too hot to burn the spices) which is easy as the recipes use 4tbsp of vegetable oil, unfortunately there is one thing he failed to mention and that is the "toffee like aroma" which is released when the spices have been "cooked"
Bruce edwards curryhouse cookery free download to all members in the downloads section of this forum!
oh just before i go rai i don't this thermometer is going to be of any help in this method of cooking specially to anyone who is a beginner. since the birth of this forum back in december 2004 so many thousands of memebers have joined all trying to recreate their favourite Bir curries many have had their answers and acheived there goal following the methods and recipes posted. some have not found what they are looking for and so have adapted the recipes to personal tastes mixing and matching base sauces and recipes and all that has been done without the need for any thermometers. we all have had disasters and i'm no exception, even when my wife thinks that the curry i have cooked is fantastic i have still not been happy with the results, still questioning myself, the methods, ingredients and base sauce.
the best gauges availalble are your nose and ears and eyes and mind put those four together with a good base recipe and method from those who have got the experience and then you will have what you want. this is not complicated, making mistakes you learn.
i have a question for you rai( ready domi)
do we really need to go any further with this? if the answer is yes please come back with the results to your experiment you will need 1 infra thermometer preferably in red and 3 people. 1 to do the cooking and 1 to point the thermometer and shout out the readings and 1 to document the readings. each of the persons present must know what they are doing and when to do it.
hope no one is too bored with the above waffle.
;)
regards
gary
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not everyone can boil an egg ::) I doubt Delia would have bothered making it a subject in her "how to cook" book/series....
Yeah but have you seen her new series? What a bloody cop out. I've always rated Delia for her sound, back to basics, cooking style. This time however she has just sold out to the Money Monster, and she's rolling in the stuff as it is!
I mean, frozen wedges with some crap sauce...do me a favour Delia. She is well coming off my pin-up wall!
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I've got me muzzle on ;D
Like that ever made a difference! :)
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She is well coming off my pin-up wall!
She'll be heartbroken to hear that SS! Spurned before she even got a chance to know ya, how cruel! Who are you going to replace her with? Fanny Craddock or Dorothy Sleightholme? :o :-*
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Who are you going to replace her with? Fanny Craddock or Dorothy Sleightholme? :o :-*
Blimey, and I thought I was old! I'd never heard of Dorothy Sleightholme but I found a clip of Farmhouse Kitchen on youtube, and strangely although I remember the tune I don't recognise her. But of course, it goes without saying that I've always got time for Fanny.
I came across Graham Kerr too wile I was Googling, you must remember him, the Galloping Gourmet!
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OI! I'm not old ya cheeky sod! :o I'm in me prime ;D I only remember Dot Sleightholme because she had a really loud swallow, other than that I don't recall her.....honest! I'm sure I've got a copy of a farmhouse kitchen cookbook somewhere... 8)
But of course, it goes without saying that I've always got time for Fanny
I think it's for the good of the board that I ignore that one! Just be glad I'm not American or I could read that entirely the wrong way SS :D
I remember the galloping gourmet.....they started showing his US show on ITV back when I was legging school....There was him and Martin Yan ("Yan can cook") who always had his chopper in his hand....typical bloke ::) :P
BTW, Rusty Lee was in my home town signing her new book, I've not seen her in many a long year either :)
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Just be glad I'm not American or I could read that entirely the wrong way SS
LMAO ;D
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Just be glad I'm not American or I could read that entirely the wrong way SS :D
Damn it woman! You took my joke, turned it arse about face, and mad me the butt of the joke! :'(
BTW, Rusty Lee was in my home town signing her new book, I've not seen her in many a long year either
Oh god don't remind me. If there was a competition for most irritating celebrity cook she'd definitely be in the top three.
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Damn it woman! You took my joke, turned it arse about face, and mad me the butt of the joke! :'(
Well bugger me! I'd never have scraped that particular bottom if you hadn't made it look so tempting, Santa :P
Who else would make up that top three? I'd take Rusty Lee over Anthony Worrall Thompson any day of the week :D I just can't abide that man!
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Okay Rai
Peronally I've had enough of this.
We've surrendered to your persistant criticism. I don't like your manner, I don't like your instense interrogation techniques and I certainly don't feel that there is anything to be gained from persuing this matter further, as I'm sure most will agree.
I'm really not quite sure why you are here on this forum in the first place, as you claim to know to know nothing one moment and then 'hey presto' you are the absolute guru, the next, and you certainly are not willing to listen.
I've tried to be polite, I've tried to give reasonable answers (as have we all), and I've tried to appreciate your objectives - but you still resist.
I can also get nasty - but so far I've resisted the temptation. As far as this forum is concerned, it is for the benefit of most and not for the satisfaction of a few.
I strongly suggest you read through this thread again (from the beginning), and I'm sure you will have the answers to your questions.
Sns :-\
Sns thank you for breaking the mold and taking the words out of my mouth! Ive resisted sooo much - this probably the longest load of old dribble on the web! (no offense to the regular posters ;))
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this probably the longest load of old dribble on the web! (no offense to the regular posters ;))
I honestly think that's a bit unfair uncklebuck. You may not have liked Rai's style but the essence of his questions was very interesting and I only wish we had come to some verifiable answers.
And just so it's not all one sided you should note that once again SnS has deleted other people's posts while leaving his own intact - hardly fair don't you think?
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Who else would make up that top three?
I'd definitely go for Ainsley Harriot. He's calmed down a bit of late but when he first started on Ready Steady Cook he was unbearable (in my opinion). Then there's that condescending ponce Gary Rhodes who thinks it's cool to sport a porcupine on your head.
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this probably the longest load of old dribble on the web! (no offense to the regular posters ;))
I honestly think that's a bit unfair uncklebuck. You may not have liked Rai's style but the essence of his questions was very interesting and I only wish we had come to some verifiable answers.
And just so it's not all one sided you should note that once again SnS has deleted other people's posts while leaving his own intact - hardly fair don't you think?
yeah your right ss it is a bit unfair.. it is the beginners section after-all, as i say no offense intended, UB.
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to be fair I don't think SnS was online when the posts were removed, unless I'm wrong, that is.
AWT, Fern Britton's husband (can't remember his name) and Ainsley would be my top three most unbearable chefs. Ainsley might have calmed down a bit but never enough to make up for his past sins :D
Apologies for going off-topic too :)
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Apologies for going off-topic too :)
I was thinking that, but bugger it, I'm fed up of feeling like I've commited some major sin if the talk wanders from the original thread. It's a conversation for god's sake and like any normal conversation they do veer off course. It's a drawback of this type of forum that there is no real threading.
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Would it comes as a surprise if I were to mention I don't have much "normal" conversation in me? Like my husband says, better a wandering mind than wandering hands....or is that the other way round....I forget :-X ;)
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Guys,
I have banned this Rai (Woks Up) character, this is the end of the thread.
Stew