Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Bobby Bhuna on March 09, 2008, 03:28 PM
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Having made many base sauces, the new base from Saffron and the Darth 100 Percent Madras Clone are, in my mind, the two best recipes to date.
At first, I preferred Saffron. Then after an excellent curry making weekend, I jumped ship and decided that Darths base was indeed superior.
Since I had them both in my freezer, and they are both relatively fresh, I decided this weekend, to put them head to head, in the base off to end all base offs.
Ideally for comparisons sake, I would have made two identical Chicken Madras but since my girlfriend was involved in the judging panel, I resorted to making two otherwise identical Chicken Bhunas.
Here are the ingredients laid out on my living room table.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/gallery/3840_09_03_08_2_41_50.JPG)
The Bhuna recipe I used was delicious and went as follows. This serves one.
Ingredients
Stage 1
1 cracked green cardamom pod
1/2 a small onion finely chopped
1/4 green pepper finely chopped
1 tsp garlic paste
1/4 tsp salt
Stage 2
1 tbsp tomato puree
1 tsp Spice Mix
1/4 tsp chilli powder
1/4 tsp dried fenugreek
Base sauce (I cant say exactly but you should be able to figure it out)
1 medium sized breast of chicken (cooked)
2 quarters of a fresh tomato
1/2 tsp garam masala
1 tbsp fresh coriander chopped
Here are the ingredients chopped and the two base sauces laid out on my living room table. Darth?s is on the left (the browner of the two as it contains no tomatoes)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/gallery/3840_09_03_08_2_43_01.JPG)
Cover the base of your curry pan with sunflower oil and heat until extremely hot.
Add all the ingredients from stage 1 in the order provided, stirring and shaking so as to avoid burning. Once the onions start to change colour (around 1 minute) remove the pan from the heat.
Add all the ingredients from stage 2 and place the pan back on the heat. Shake and stir vigorously to avoid burning the spices.
Add half the base sauce and let most of the water evaporate off. Add the chicken and coat it fully in the mixture. Add the rest of the base sauce and Garam Masala and stir. Once you have the right consistency, add the fresh coriander and serve.
Results
At this point you should note that I used the Darth method to cook the chicken. I like this because its simple and it works.
So, I dished out two plates with pilau rice, the Bhuna with Saffron base and the Bhuna with Darths base. My girlfriend and I then sat down to bear judgement upon the unsuspecting curries. The Saffron base is at the bottom here and the Darth at the top.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/gallery/3840_09_03_08_2_43_42.JPG)
And the winner is...
Saffron, unanimously.
When quizzed, my girlfriend described it as being more "subtly spiced" and "well balanced" than its competitor, which she described as having a ?raw? taste.
I would say that the Darth base had quite a strong taste, was too thick and dominated the dish too much. I would also say that the taste of green pepper from the base is a little striking.
So now back to the cooker to fill the freezer with another batch of Saffron. 8)
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Bit of an unfair test if you don't mind me saying.
Darth's base was concieved as a base for Madras/vindaloo only, trying to make a Bhuna out of it is like chalk and cheese.
Having said that, I have used it for a Dhansak quite successfully, but it suits the hotter more robust curry, not a mild dry curry like Bhuna should be.
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it suits the hotter more robust curry, not a mild dry curry like Bhuna should be.
In my eyes, a good base should be versatile. The way you put it leads me to look at Darths base as more of a hot curry sauce than a base. Also, there's not a huge difference between that Bhuna recipe and a Madras. Just a little green pepper, tomato and garam masala.
That said, I've still got both bases defrosted for use tonight. It was going to be Bhuna again but now it's gonna be Madras ;D
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Good report Bobby - both versions look delicious :P
Look forward to reading the results on the Madras later. Are you using the Darth Madras recipe for both bases?
SnS ;D
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As far as I know, all BIR's use one base for all dishes
I've seen it used in everything from a korma to a phall
No curry base sample I ever bought, was even slightly chillie hot
So I guess that Darths base is not a real curry base, although I'm sure it is very good for a madras
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Bit of an unfair test if you don't mind me saying.
Darth's base was concieved as a base for Madras/vindaloo only, trying to make a Bhuna out of it is like chalk and cheese.
Having said that, I have used it for a Dhansak quite successfully, but it suits the hotter more robust curry, not a mild dry curry like Bhuna should be.
Surely a base gravy is supposed to be versatile (like Bobby says). If the Darth base is just for Madras, Vindaloo type curry, this is not what most BIR's use (only 3 bases).
The Saffron base can be used for 90% of curry recipes (like BIR's). I'm not sure the Darth one can (I havn't tried it yet, so I can only form an opinion based on other reports).
I made a Korma (for other half) twice last week using the Saffron and both turned out really nice (not overspiced), but I doubt if it could be used for something like passanda or CTM (I believe they both have their own bases).
I often cook Ceylon, Pathia, Bhuna, Dhansak, Madras, Vindaloo and Jalfrezi curries, also Saag Aloo and Mushroom Bhaji using the Saffron base and they've all turned out okay too.
Personally, I'd prefer a base that is versatile (for most curries). If I were to have Madras style most of the time (which I don't), I think I may be more inclined to try/use Darth's base.
SnS ;D
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I notice you use cracked Cardamom pods. I have started using them since I found two in a takeaway Chicken Madras. Do you think they make a difference. I start frying my onions then add them a few minutes later and remove them before serving the dish. I didn`t add directly to hot oil for fear of burning them and ending up with a bad taste in the finished meal. Any advice? ;D
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Bit of an unfair test if you don't mind me saying.
Darth's base was concieved as a base for Madras/vindaloo only, trying to make a Bhuna out of it is like chalk and cheese.
Having said that, I have used it for a Dhansak quite successfully, but it suits the hotter more robust curry, not a mild dry curry like Bhuna should be.
Surely a base gravy is supposed to be versatile (like Bobby says). If the Darth base is just for Madras, Vindaloo type curry, this is not what most BIR's use (only 3 bases).
The Saffron base can be used for 90% of curry recipes (like BIR's). I'm not sure the Darth one can (I havn't tried it yet, so I can only form an opinion based on other reports).
I made a Korma (for other half) twice last week using the Saffron and both turned out really nice (not overspiced), but I doubt if it could be used for something like passanda or CTM (I believe they both have their own bases).
I often cook Ceylon, Pathia, Bhuna, Dhansak, Madras, Vindaloo and Jalfrezi curries, also Saag Aloo and Mushroom Bhaji using the Saffron base and they've all turned out okay too.
Personally, I'd prefer a base that is versatile (for most curries). If I were to have Madras style most of the time (which I don't), I think I may be more inclined to try/use Darth's base.
SnS ;D
I would not dissagree with you in the slightest on the versatility of a general base to cater for all curries, I quite agree, thats why I was pointing out that Darth's base is not a good comparison, it was never designed as a general purpose base, it was only for Madras and Vindaloo, but it'd bloody good at it. :)
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I had a McDonald's last night so the Madras was off the cards. Tonight however, I will try the Madras comparison with an open mind. I think I'll use CA's Madras recipe, as I think adding Passata adds another variable. What do you think?
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I notice you use cracked Cardamom pods...
Any advice? ;D
I think it does add that Cardomomy taste a little more, which I really like, especially in a curry like Bhuna. I stick it right in the hot oil and have had no trouble with this method. I think it's pretty resilient to burning.
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Personally, I'd prefer a base that is versatile (for most curries). If I were to have Madras style most of the time (which I don't), I think I may be more inclined to try/use Darth's base.
My vote was for Saffron, then after a great Madras, it changed to Darth. After side by side comparison, Saffron is better for a Bhuna and so I'm told, is far more versatile.
I'm not interested in making a dedicated Madras style sauce as I'm convinced this is anti-BIR. To be honest I expect Saffron to win the side by side comparison anyway but I will judge with an open mind (and my flatmate who will be involved in the tasting will have no idea which is which).
My vote will be changed back to Saffron independent of the results as I don't actually think, after what's been said, that Darth's 100 Percent even qualifies as a base sauce :-\
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as I think adding Passata adds another variable...
I've only had bad experiences with passata so I wouldn't use it but, others will undoubdtedly disagree. Can you really imagine BIRs using it though?
I've recently tried using tomato juice (the drinkable type sold in a carton from Tesco) and that definitely works. It's like adding watered down tomato puree which is what many people do anyway to avoid burning their spices.
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I don't actually think, after what's been said, that Darth's 100 Percent even qualifies as a base sauce :-\
Well that's debatable but, whatever, it has got many accolades since it was posted, so it's clearly what some people are after.
The only point I take from your comparison of the bases though is that you definitely can't mix and match any base to any recipe (something which I have always known to be true).
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No curry base sample I ever bought, was even slightly chillie hot
So I guess that Darths base is not a real curry base, although I'm sure it is very good for a madras
But Darth says adding chilli is a personal preference and is an option (because he likes hot curries). That doesnt mean to say that otherwise (without the chilli) his curry base is not versatile. It is.
Of course it is a "real" curry base. He says he got it from a restaurant. Just leave the chilli out.
which she described as having a ?raw? taste
Bobby, maybe you burnt or undercooked something? Darths base does not have a raw taste. At least it doesnt when Ive made it. Nor does it have a striking taste of green pepper.
My vote was for Saffron, then after a great Madras, it changed to Darth. After side by side comparison, Saffron is better
Your taste buds sure seem to be doing cartwheels there Bobby ;)
The only point I take from your comparison of the bases though is that you definitely can't mix and match any base to any recipe
Lies, damned lies and statistics secret santa. You simply want to prove your point. Try leaving the chilli out and it is as versatile a base as any other and largely recipe independent ;)
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Bobby, maybe you burnt or undercooked something? Darth's base does not have a raw taste. At least it doesnt when Ive made it. Nor does it have a striking taste of green pepper.
I can follow a recipe and have enough cooking experience to tell when I've either burnt or overcooked a dish. She meant raw as in unrefined, not uncooked, which perhaps I should have clarified. I would agree with this.
I would suggest that the reason it does not come across as having an unrefined taste to you, is because you do not have a more refined effort to compare it with.
Your taste buds sure seem to be doing cartwheels there Bobby ;)
That's the whole motivation for this thread. If I knew which I preferred straight off, why all this effort?
Lies, damned lies and statistics secret santa.
I don't see any statistics.
You simply want to prove your point.
Is that you speculating again? ;)
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Nice posts BB :)
I haven't tried the saffron base yet, but I do use Darth's base alot, mainly for milder curries (omitting the chilli) because it seems to allow the flavours of the other spices to sing out which makes it great for dopiazas, bhunas, pathias and jalfrezis, but I have to say that Stew's new base is better for hotter curries such as madras and vindaloo and anyone that I've fed those curries to say there is no difference when compared to the take-aways and restaurants they use...Maybe it's because it's originally from a Bradford curry house that it suits my tastes better...I've tried Stew's base without the chilli and it's still bloody good but I don't get the same depth of flavour through the final milder curry as I do with Darths.
But even so, I have to say that Stew's base is my fave of the ones I've tried up to date and as soon as I clear my freezer out I'll be trying Ifindforu's base....or should I try the saffron? choices! choices! it's almost as bad as shoe shopping for me :-[ ;D
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or should I try the saffron? choices! choices! it's almost as bad as shoe shopping for me :-[ ;D
Thanks Domi, yeah, for sure, please do try Saffron and report back. It's would be good to hear how you think it compares! 8)
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Actually, one thing I forgot to mention is that the two curries that were identical other than the base, tasted completely different. Barely similar. I'm quite surpised at this to be honest, I thought most good bases (which I would say both of these are) would yield similar results...
Well they dont.
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I forgot to mention is that the two curries that were identical other than the base
Maybe they were actually different bobby and you just didnt realise it? So many people claim to know that they havent burnt something and that they have done everything identically. Well, sorry, but I dont believe it. There are far too many posts here to demonsrate otherwise ;)
Isnt the main difference between the two bases the absence of tomatoes on Darths base (which he adds at the madras stage)?
And did you add the minimal amount of oil in Darths or the increased amount?
Because, from what I can tell from your Bhuna photos, the main differences are the redder colour (tomatoes?) and oiliness (oil? haha) of the one made from the saffron base?
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Different bases won't give the same results because they don't carry the same spices/spice quantities which is why I think it better that if someone post a curry recipe, they specify which base to use since there is sometimes a vast difference in taste between one base and another.
So many people claim to know that they havent burnt something and that they have done everything identically. Well, sorry, but I dont believe it. There are far too many posts here to demonsrate otherwise ;)
I have to agree with that, Rai...my sister can't boil an egg so her curries are a disaster, culinary skill and palate have to come into play when lots of people are judging the taste of something, unfortunately, you can't tell how good a cook or gormand someone is by looking at their font. ;D
Let's face it, you're never going to come up with a base recipe to suit all people, otherwise we'd all eat at the one same restaurant....either that or we'd end up with an Indian chain like McDonalds :o Gawd! it makes me shudder to think of it :-X :P
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I have to agree with that, Rai...
Awwww, you really dont have to Domi. most people dont, just watch this space! ;)
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hehe but I'm not most people....unless my multiple personality disorder counts that is :-X
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Maybe they were actually different bobby and you just didnt realise it? So many people claim to know that they havent burnt something and that they have done everything identically. Well, sorry, but I dont believe it. There are far too many posts here to demonsrate otherwise ;)
I went out with the intention of making them identical. I believe that I was very accurate in doing so (there is nothing to suggest that I was not) and conclude that the base sauce used effects the overall result quite dramatically.
Isnt the main difference between the two bases the absence of tomatoes on Darths base (which he adds at the madras stage)?
There are many differences and I could not say what the main one is. Probably the one that yields the most different result but having only made each base as stated in the recipe, I could not possibly speculate.
And did you add the minimal amount of oil in Darths or the increased amount?
I used the increased amount. The thickness of the Darth base means that it does not lend itself to oil separation, unlike the Saffron base.
Because, from what I can tell from your Bhuna photos, the main differences are the redder colour (tomatoes?) and oiliness (oil? haha) of the one made from the saffron base?
Like I said Rai, the thicker bases tend to hold the oil more, whereas a thinner base such as Saffron lets the oil separate out more easily.
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Let's face it, you're never going to come up with a base recipe to suit all people, otherwise we'd all eat at the one same restaurant....either that or we'd end up with an Indian chain like McDonalds :o Gawd! it makes me shudder to think of it :-X :P
True that!
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Let's face it, you're never going to come up with a base recipe to suit all people, otherwise we'd all eat at the one same restaurant....either that or we'd end up with an Indian chain like McDonalds :o Gawd! it makes me shudder to think of it :-X :P
We already have a Indian chain like McDonalds in Scotland
Harlequin Lesuire
http://www.harlequinrestaurants.com/
Apart from one or two of their restaurants which they "aquired" which retain their own culinary tastes, the rest of their places taste identical to me, and taste like Indian fast food.
Their "Ashoka Shak" chain are small McDonalds sized huts which sit along side McDonalds in retail parks, cinema complexes etc.
One of their restaurants "Masala Jaks" is a wild west theme indian restaurant
http://www.harlequinrestaurants.com/restaurants/masala_jaks_the_quay.php
Back in the Great American Gold Rush of 1849, thousands of prospectors headed to the USA to panhandle for gold. Many found fortunes, thousands died, a few found fame, but perhaps the most famous of all was Jagir Singh, known as 'Masala Jak', who left the Punjab for the USA. Jak found no gold, but did find fortune when he introduced the cowboys of the Wild West to the delights of Indian Cuisine. His fame travelled across America, a legend was born. Old tales tell that the words 'Masala Jak' derived from Mister Jagir Singh, maybe true...maybe not...
Simply sit back and enjoy the Curry, as it would have been served in the Wild, Wild West...
:(
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well bugger me! I'll have to visit Kama Sutra next time I'm up in Glasgow ;)
gives a whole new meaning to eating out..... :D (sorry!...I know it's a bad line but I just can't help meself :-[ )
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Yeah, I've been to Ashokashak in Dundee. Totally s***e curry. What more would one expect from a chain Indian restaurant?
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well bugger me! I'll have to visit Kama Sutra next time I'm up in Glasgow ;)
gives a whole new meaning to eating out..... :D (sorry!...I know it's a bad line but I just can't help meself :-[ )
I wouldn't bother - Kama Sutra is just five mins walk from my office here - awful :( My office is right in the middle of the Glasgow curry district so to speak so I have tried pretty much every place - and I always visit a place at least twice before making judgement.
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Great thread Bobby, I've not really been into Darths recipes as I had my suspicions around the time of them being posted if they were genuine. I know it is highly rated but I always wondered why there was one base for this and one base for that which put me of trying it. I will be interested to see the madras comparison given thats what Darths base is supposed to be for.
Back in the Great American Gold Rush of 1849, thousands of prospectors headed to the USA to panhandle for gold. Many found fortunes, thousands died, a few found fame, but perhaps the most famous of all was Jagir Singh, known as 'Masala Jak', who left the Punjab for the USA. Jak found no gold, but did find fortune when he introduced the cowboys of the Wild West to the delights of Indian Cuisine. His fame travelled across America, a legend was born. Old tales tell that the words 'Masala Jak' derived from Mister Jagir Singh, maybe true...maybe not...
Simply sit back and enjoy the Curry, as it would have been served in the Wild, Wild West...
You have got to be kidding !
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tut! just as I expected ::) I'll have to ask for your recommendations when I come up, Chris....although it'll not be in the next year :-\
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...the two curries that were identical other than the base, tasted completely different. Barely similar...
And verily Secret Santa did repeateth for the umpteenth time...my son you may not mix and match bases and curry recipes...and so it came to pass. :)
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gives a whole new meaning to eating out...
You've plumbed depths that I don't think even I would sink to with that one..oooeeer!
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...I've not really been into Darths recipes as I had my suspicions around the time of them being posted if they were genuine....
That's an interesting thought. I never thought there was any hint of falsehood to his posts. Just shows how we all have a different take on things.
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That's an interesting thought. I never thought there was any hint of falsehood to his posts. Just shows how we all have a different take on things.
Yeah, I wasn't around when he posted but I've read his threads and he seems like a pretty cool guy. Who knows eh! His recipes are still pretty tasty nonetheless.
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After many of you pointed out that the true comparison between the bases would really have to use a Madras recipe in order to be fair to the Darth base, (since this is the kind of curry for which it was intended) I defrosted some more base sauce and went to work. I didn't take so many photos but you get the point.
Here are the resultant curries (both curries on both plates, Saffron at the top, Darth at the bottom). I thought I'd keep things simple and so opted for the Rajver Madras recipe, which can be found here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2152.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2152.0.html) The results were astounding.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/gallery/3840_11_03_08_9_59_35.JPG)
So, for the Bhunas, Saffron was the clear winner, getting a unanimous thumbs up from both my girlfriend and I.
This time however, it was an altogether closer race. With the Bhunas I explained that the curries were very different. Well guess what! With the Madras, they were very very similar, to the point that I didn't have a preference - they were both absolutely delicious. Lashings of beautiful sauce that I happily mopped up with some garlic and coriander nan from the corner shop :P
My girlfriend agreed that they were very similar but decided that she preferred the Saffron base as it was more "Tomatoey", which she liked.
So, overall, it's still a win for Saffron but the Darth base does really come into its own far more when used with a Madras type recipe. However, Saffron still beat the Darth base at its own game (only just) and offers far more versatility.
In conclusion, the Saffron base is as good or better than the Darth base at making Madras style recipes. It is better at making Bhuna type recipes, and is a proven winner for Kormas, Jalfrezis etc. etc.
Darth's Madras base is a really tasty base and great one to try but as far as bases go, I think I know the winner ;D
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After many of you pointed out that the true comparison between the bases would really have to use a Madras recipe in order to be fair to the Darth base, (since this is the kind of curry for which it was intended)
As I understand it darth happened to like madras and vindaloo and therefore added chilli powder to the base. Otherwise the base was allegedly from a restaurant (despite what curryking may otherwise think) and is versatile
I defrosted some more base sauce and went to work
How long had each been in the freezer for bobby? Time changes the consistency of the sauce significantly. Ill wager that darths base has been there longer (judging by the consistancy in your earlier post)
Saffron at the top, Darth at the bottom)
I can only see left and right Bobby?
My girlfriend agreed that they were very similar but decided that she preferred the Saffron base as it was more "Tomatoey", which she liked
Thats hardly surprising bobby since there is no tomato in darths base (he adds it to his madras recipe which you didnt use) and only 1 tsp in the rajver madras recipe. This is where secretsanta is maybe correct (for once), darths madras recipe is matched to his madras recipe regarding two things in particular, the addition of chilli and the absence of tomato in his base. In this regard its an "unusual" base.
So, overall, it's still a win for Saffron but the Darth base does really come into its own far more when used with a Madras type recipe. However, Saffron still beat the Darth base at its own game (only just) and offers far more versatility
So overall, you probably need to compare darths madras (made with darths base) with the saffron madras (made with the saffron base)
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As I understand it darth happened to like madras and vindaloo and therefore added chilli powder to the base. Otherwise the base was allegedly from a restaurant (despite what curryking may otherwise think) and is versatile
I'm not sure about that one Rai, can you clarify? That said, it seems like a perfectly reasonable base recipe.
How long had each been in the freezer for bobby? Time changes the consistency of the sauce significantly. Ill wager that darths base has been there longer (judging by the consistancy in your earlier post)
I'm afraid it's the other way around. Saffron's been in about 2 months and Darth's been in for around three weeks. Darths base is quite thick, as he does not thin it at any point, whereas the Saffron base is quite thin. This also accounts for why Saffron looks like it contains much more oil, as thin bases lend themselves more to oil separation.
I can only see left and right Bobby?
As I said Rai, both curries are on both plates, Saffron at the top, Darth at the bottom. They look very similar though.
Thats hardly surprising bobby since there is no tomato on darths base (he adds it to his madras) and only 1 tsp in the rajver madras recipe. This is where secretsanta is correct (for once), darths madras recipe is matched to his madras recipe regarding two things in particular, the addition of chilli and the absence of tomato in his base. In this regard its an "unusual" base.
Like I said, I liked both curries equally. It's not like the Darth Madras lacked Tomatoes, my girlfriend is a bit of a tomato fiend. With a different judge it could have easily swung the other way.
So overall, you probably need to compare darths madras (made with darths base) with the saffron madras (made with the saffron base)
I am trying to compare bases, not entire recipes. I have used a simple, generic, genuine BIR third party recipe in this case and so I cannot see fairer than that. If you want to compare the entire recipes, please go ahead, as like me, you seem to be very interested in the matter and active contribution to the forum is always appreciated. 8)
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With the Madras, they were very very similar...
I just don't see how you can take two very different bases and end up with two almost identical curries. It just doesn't make sense.
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This is where secretsanta is maybe correct (for once)...
Cheeky sod!
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Cheeky sod!
Its a compliment secretsanta! ;D
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It's not like the Darth Madras lacked Tomatoes, my girlfriend is a bit of a tomato fiend. With a different judge it could have easily swung the other way
But it did didnt it? Because there were none in the base and only 1 tsp of tomato puree in rajvers madras recipe. Whereas darth adds passatta in his madras recipe and the saffron base has tomatoes?
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It's not like the Darth Madras lacked Tomatoes, my girlfriend is a bit of a tomato fiend. With a different judge it could have easily swung the other way
But it did didnt it? Because there were none in the base and only 1 tsp of tomato puree in rajvers madras recipe. Whereas darth adds passatta in his madras recipe and the saffron base has tomatoes?
I don't understand what you're trying to say there Rai. Bobby isn't making two different curries, he's making the exact same curry with two different bases. Or am I missing the point?
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As I understand it darth happened to like madras and vindaloo and therefore added chilli powder to the base. Otherwise the base was allegedly from a restaurant (despite what curryking may otherwise think) and is versatile
To clear things up, yes that is what I thought at the time and still do for the following reasons:
1. The bases were labled madras\vindaloo not the base sauce.
2. There were a number of admendmants to the point where there was a new thread to simplify it, why?
3. There was also a recommendation to use olive oil which I would say is a big no no in recreating BIR.
4. Using 8 chicken breasts at a time, if I remember right the recipe was designed to cook 4 currys at once in the same pan, what restaurant does that?
5. I don't think he ever said they were from a restaurant, they were refered to has 'his' recipes.
Theres nothing wrong with any of this of course and lots of people have had success with his recipes, great stuff. My curry cooking time is limited though and given the backlog of bases and recipes I still have to get through I have to decide whats worth spending my time on. :)
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But it did didnt it? Because there were none in the base and only 1 tsp of tomato puree in rajvers madras recipe. Whereas darth adds passatta in his madras recipe and the saffron base has tomatoes?
How else can I put this Rai? It tasted really good and didn't seem like it was missing anything. With the Saffron base, the curry tasted slightly more "tomatoey" but it's not as if the curry with the Darth base wasn't "tomatoey" enough. Like I say, it was really good and very similar.
I can't use Pasatta, because it's rarely used by BIR recipes on this site and for a base comparison I have chosen a simple, generic recipe. As I've said, I really can't see any fairer than that.
Any other base, when combined with a recipe that uses Pasatta would be at a disadvantage, as the addition of this otherwise rarely used ingredient is not what they are meant for. If you are saying that the Darth base is meant specifically to be coupled with the use of Pasatta, then it is not versatile, since it would not work with nearly all other BIR recipes.
However, if as you say, Darths base is versatile, then I should be able to use it with simple generic recipes, like the Rajver Madras, which I have, successfully. I don't understand why you are unsatisfied by this. I assume your point is that I just can't compare bases? If so why not? I've used a very simple, standard third party recipe.
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I can't use Pasatta, because it's rarely used by BIR recipes on this site and for a base comparison I have chosen a simple, generic recipe. As I've said, I really can't see any fairer than that.
But surely you're making the same point as SS there Bobby....The rajver curry recipes are based on a blend of spices which compliment their base sauce, just as Darth's recipe for madras is built around the spices used in his base sauce, which proves exactly why you can't mix and match recipes sauce-to-base-wise as too much of or completely missing what may be an essential ingredient will drastically affect the resulting curry taste. If you can't use passata, then you're not following darths recipe, merely using it as a guideline :-\
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If you can't use passata, then you're not following darths recipe, merely using it as a guideline :-\
To clarify again, I'm not following Darths recipe. That is why I've chosen a third party recipe.
I'm comparing two supposedly versatile base sauces by using them to make the exact same curry, in which the only difference is the choice of base sauce.
I don't care if Darths recipe uses Pasatta, or anything else for that matter because I'm not comparing curry recipes. I'm putting two popular and supposedly versatile base sauces head to head, to see which one is superior.
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I'm putting two popular and supposedly versatile base sauces head to head, to see which one is superior.
Maybe put them head to head using darths madras recipe bobby and see how that pans out? Probably prove secretsanta right again (maybe) ;)
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Maybe put them head to head using darths madras recipe bobby and see how that pans out? Probably prove secretsanta right again (maybe) ;)
You fail to see the point here Rai. I am using a simple third party generic base for the comparison, otherwise the recipe choice favours the related base sauce.
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No, I understand and accept what youre saying bobby.
Maybe put them head to head with the saffron madras too then (or the rajver base and madras)? I think all youll be doing is proving secretsantas (and domis) point
And that scares me :P
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I think all youll be doing is proving secretsantas (and domis) point
To which point are you referring?
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Oh I really cant bring myself to say it ;)
Im sure secretsanta will elaborate once again ;D
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Interesting posts?
Thanks for you efforts Bobby - a fair test as far as I can see, but I get the feeling you're beating your head against the wall here.
In my opinion a base gravy is essentially an onion based stock and should be compatible with most "curry base" type recipes.
If a curry base is made too suit one particular curry recipe (eg: a madras) then it probably does lack versatility and should not be classified a BIR base gravy.
A good test to whether a base gravy is versatile or not, would be to substitute it into some of KD's recipes.
Just my opinion.
SnS ;D
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Mixing and matching is not ideal but how many madras\vindaloo recipes have we seen from BIR's that are almost exactly the same, most of them, a few have some subtle differences. The way I see it a good base sauce should be able to produce a decent result from a basic madras recipe.
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If a curry base is made too suit one particular curry recipe (eg: a madras) then it probably does lack versatility and should not be classified a BIR base gravy.
You see, I really dont know where this comes from regardin darths base? :-\
I'll repeat, darths base is a standard base (if you omit optional chilli) without any tomatoes in it (because he adds tomatoes in the main recipe).
And it is a bloody good base capable of making the whole range of curries.
Now, granted, if you want a tomatoey flavour then you are going to have to add some tomtoes to it arent you (which I think is secretsantas an domis point about not being able to mix bases and main recipes bobby, though i dont tend to agree totally with it)!
Bleeding obvious Id say ::)
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Thanks for you efforts Bobby - a fair test as far as I can see, but I get the feeling you're beating your head against the wall here.
;D thanks SnS, I've been looking forward to hearing from you on this topic. Yes, using some KD recipes would be a fair test, but no fairer than using the Rajver in my opinion. KD recipies are just other examples of simple, generic third party recipes.
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Now, granted, if you want a tomatoey flavour then you are going to have to add some tomtoes to it arent you (which I think is secretsantas an domis point about not being able to mix bases and main recipes bobby, though i dont tend to agree totally with it)!
I have no idea what you're trying to address here. Of course if you want it to taste more "tomatoey" you have to add tomato in some form. However, it makes a great Madras from the simple Madras recipe as is, and so obviously can be used with other recipes, although may not perform to it's optimum. However, in this case, we are not testing the optimum performace of the base - we are testing how well it can conform with a generic recipe.
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Maybe put them head to head with the saffron madras too then (or the rajver base and madras)? I think all youll be doing is proving secretsantas (and domis) point
The simple Madras recipe included with the Saffron base thread was there as an example of how the Saffron restaurant prepared a Madras using their own gravy. The recipe is "rough" as it was quickly demonstrated to me and no accurate measurements were taken (I actually regret posting it now). It was the gravy that was the main subject of that thread, not the Madras.
The Saffron base recipe provides an authentic BIR curry base recipe, which is flexible enough to be used with most BIR curry recipes.
There are far better "refined" Madras recipe's available on this site which could be used with the Saffron base.
SnS ;D
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I have no idea what you're trying to address here. Of course if you want it to taste more "tomatoey" you have to add tomato in some form. However, it makes a great Madras from the simple Madras recipe as is, and so obviously can be used with other recipes, although may not perform to it's optimum. However, in this case, we are not testing the optimum performace of the base - we are testing how well it can conform with a generic recipe.
huh? Sorry, I really didnt understand much of that :-\
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It's interesting to note that out of 36 listed BIR style curry base recipes on this forum, only 2 have no tomato or tomato puree included.
Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?
SnS ;D
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Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?
This would seem to be the case. It seems fairly obvious to me that most currys contain tomatoes in some form. In which case, it would save the BIR time to try and accommodate this in the base sauce, rather than having to add ingredients to each curry at the final stage.
I can understand the use of Tomato Puree at the final stage, as it helps with consistency and cooking the spices without burning them and also contributes to producing the BIR "toffee" smell.
I cannot however understand the use of Pasatta in the final stage dish. It would cool the pan down too much and waste cooking time. It's also more expensive than tinned tomatoes in my local supermarket. Finally, I never heard, from the many first hand BIR kitchen encounters on this site, of the use of Pasatta in curry cooking.
Taking this into account, coupled with the fact that we know that most curries contain a fresh / tinned tomato element, I have to conclude, as SnS suggests, the tomatoes must be added at the base sauce stage. 8)
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Basically what I'm saying is if a base uses a heavier amount of one ingredient, say for example, chilli, then it is going to give a hotter result to the base sauce and obviously affect the flavour (or heat in this case) of the final curry made from that base. As such, when making a curry using a hotter base, I would take this into account when using a recipe which is not specifically used for that particular base, otherwise it would be too hot or not hot enough. Same with tomatoes, if a base does not have tomatoes in it but I'm making a tomatoey curry, the amount of tomatoes or tomato puree used in that final curry would have to be amended as per the base recipe.
I guess what I really mean is that a final curry recipe needs to be built around the ingredients used in a base gravy, not the other way around. Thus when I follow a curry recipe, I like to know which base sauce was used as it would or could dramatically change the taste of the resulting dish :-\. The next time I make a recipe, I change it to suit my tastes, whether that be more tomatoes, chilli or whatever. I just think that when mixing and matching recipes, you must take into account the differences in ingredients, to leave out or put too much of something in somehow does no justice to either the base or curry recipe.
I mean, you could have left out the tomato from the saffron base since it was omitted from Darth's recipe, but then we'd be arguing that you'd not followd the saffron recipe and so the results were biased in some way towards Darth's base....Do you get what I mean? :-\
Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?
This would seem to be the case. It seems fairly obvious to me that most currys contain tomatoes in some form. In which case, it would save the BIR time to try and accommodate this in the base sauce, rather than having to add ingredients to each curry at the final stage.
I can understand the use of Tomato Puree at the final stage, as it helps with consistency and cooking the spices without burning them and also contributes to producing the BIR "toffee" smell.
I cannot however understand the use of Pasatta in the final stage dish. It would cool the pan down too much and waste cooking time. It's also more expensive than tinned tomatoes in my local supermarket. Finally, I never heard, from the many first hand BIR kitchen encounters on this site, of the use of Pasatta in curry cooking.
Taking this into account, coupled with the fact that we know that most curries contain a fresh / tinned tomato element, I have to conclude, as SnS suggests, the tomatoes must be added at the base sauce stage. 8)
Again, I thin you're wrong...simply because a curry recipe must be built around the spices and ingredients used in the base.....A white sauce quickly becomes a mustard sauce, cheese sauce parsley sauce at the inclusion of one or two ingredients all of which dramatically change the final sauce...You wouldn't use parsley sauce in a lasagne....and there, I think, I rest my case ;D
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A white sauce quickly becomes a mustard sauce, cheese sauce parsley sauce at the inclusion of one or two ingredients all of which dramatically change the final sauce...You wouldn't use parsley sauce in a lasagne....and there, I think, I rest my case ;D
Yes Domi, but we're making curry from the base sauce, which will always contain tomato. I'm not suggesting for one second that I would add, for example, almonds, which are found in a Korma. This would reduce the versatility of the base, as adding parsley would reduce the versatility of your white sauce.
It's fine that you counter balance your curry dishes ingredients with those present in the base sauce but I'll say it again, this thread is to compare the bases. This comparison aims to find out, amongst other things, how compatible with generic recipes the base is.
If you find yourself having to counter balance ingredients, then the base is not versatile enough (a poor example of a BIR base, as they must be proficient all-rounders). On the other hand, if your base stands up to generic recipes, then it is versatile and therefore is probably closer to being a BIR base than it's competitor.
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Bobby,
very good post and much good learning for me in it.
i'm pretty settled on my fav base with parker21 (Rajver) then saffron. the parker21 being slightly more delux (i think due to the addition of coconut milk).
i was thinking of trying the Darth base next being tempted by the high no of pole results. i was particularly interested in the addition of celery (which i don't care for) and was interested on any thoughts you have on the addition of celery.
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I understand what you're saying Bobby ;)
If the bases were true "standalone" BIR type (not those produced specifically as "Stage 1" to a particular curry recipe), then I would not expect a dramatic taste difference between curries cooked using the same recipe - but different base.
I think the problem here is actually defining what a BIR curry base should be and what we expect from it (again). ::)
SnS ;D
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i was particularly interested in the addition of celery (which i don't care for) and was interested on any thoughts you have on the addition of celery.
:) I'm really glad you found the post useful.
I can't claim to be an expert on the addition of different vegetables into a base sauce but I do know that Celery appears quite often appears in things like gravy (the kind you have with a roast dinner) and so I assume it does impart some unique flavour.
Darths base has a lot of veg in it and tastes really good by itself. I wouldn't say that it has a subtle taste however, like KD and Saffron which taste a little more bland. I may well try the Rajver base next (the Madras recipe works a treat) but I'm always cautious with coconut - too much and everything tastes like a Korma! :P
All said and done, Darths base is certainly worth a pop - it can double up as a tasty and nutritious soup ;D
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I think the problem here is actually defining what a BIR curry base should be and what we expect from it (again). ::)
I think you're spot on! 8)
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Yes Domi, but we're making curry from the base sauce, which will always contain tomato.
Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test? You still don't see my point BB.....If you want to compare the bases, then compare the base recipes themselves, it is unfair to judge them based on a curry recipe which is not designed around that particular base. If I wanted to judge a rajver madras against Darths, then I would need to follow both the rajver base and rajver madras recipe to do it justice just as to judge Darth's madras I'd have to use both his base and curry recipes, it's unfair to do it any other way. Obviously I can choose which base I prefer but simply replacing one base with another entirely different one can't work in my opinion....
You couldn't make a korma with Stew's base as it would be way too hot.
It's a bit like following 2 chocolate cake recipes.....if one recipe calls for the inclusion of the chocolate at say, stage 2, but the other recipe says to add at a later stage, say stage 6, but the recipe you actually follow veers away from Darth's method at stage 5 for instance, at what point would Darth's recipe actually become a chocolate cake? it wouldn't, would it? (as in Darth's madras recipe, the tomatoes are added at a stage which you omitted in your test as it is not present in the rajver version ::) ) Now do you get my point Bobby? Darth's base is versatile, but what versatility means is that it can be changed to suit many recipes, just as the recipes themselves would have to be modified for the base gravy.
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Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test?
No, it is not.
If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
If it doesn't work because it does not contain tomatoes, I would simply find myself a base recipe that did work for the generic case and discard Darths base as recipe specific.
Alternatively, if I was so inclined, I could add tomatoes to Darths base recipe, increasing its versatility.
I understand your point entirely. It would seem however, as SnS said, that when we say "curry base", I expect one thing and you expect another. For me, a good base must work for the generic case without me having to chop and change trusted recipes, otherwise, it's probably not of real BIR origin.
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I thought Darth's posts make it clear that the base recipe is for vindaloos/madras's?
Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test?
If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
Then why did you not add the tomato? :-\ You have just said exactly what I've been saying myself, that in order to make different curries using different bases, the ingredients have to be altered in order that the one suit the other or to suit your own personal taste? You can't miss out integral ingredients ??? which is why this was not a fair test in my eyes.
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Perhaps we should start classifying bases on whether they are generic (versatile) or specific (dedicated to one curry recipe)?
Personally, if I'm going to produce 4 litres of the stuff, I'd prefer the former.
SnS ::)
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everybody changes recipes at some point SnS, even if it's just half a teaspoon of sugar vs a full one, it doesn't make a recipe less versatile, it just means it has to be altered in different ways to suit the cook ;)
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If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
Whoops!!! I meant
This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
Sorry about that. I'll change that now.
Right chaps, I'm off now. I'll be back tmrw! ;D
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everybody changes recipes at some point SnS, even if it's just half a teaspoon of sugar vs a full one, it doesn't make a recipe less versatile, it just means it has to be altered in different ways to suit the cook ;)
I think you may have misunderstood my meaning Domi ::)
Versatility in terms of number of different curries that can be produced from one particular gravy, without the gravy dominating the final outcome.
SnS ;D
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If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
Whoops!!! I meant
This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.
so you're saying that if a base gravy uses 1 tblsp chilli powder, and a curry recipe specifies the same (since it was designed for a different base in which chilli was omitted) you would add 2 tblsp, in fact doubling the quantity? :-\ I can't be the only one to think that that's wrong? ::) although it may be the cause of such varied replies to some recipes in which the base gravy has not been specified? ;)
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A good test to whether a base gravy is versatile or not, would be to substitute it into some of KD's recipes.
Interesting opinion, but I find that kris dhillons recipes are seriously lacking (including her base) so I dont think your suggestion is sound
It's interesting to note that out of 36 listed BIR style curry base recipes on this forum, only 2 have no tomato or tomato puree included
Interesting to note, but not particulalry relevant. Id suspect that many of these bases will be iterations from a similar source (sauce? :P). That is pat chapman, kris dhillon, or one of the other limited number of copycat curry cookbooks. These authors use tomatoes in their bases so other people copy them.
Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?
I think the assumption is flawed, but why an earth would we conclude that anyway? Clearly the most versatile option is NO BASE. With the next most versatile option being a pure onion base, followed by a pure onion and garlic base,...etc, etc
I conclude that a base with tomatoes in it is logically less versatile than one without tomatoes in it. Hard to argue with that logic I imagine, though Im sure someone will feel obliged to try ;)
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i think both lines of thought are spot on.
i feel a base has to be versatile ie a BIR so that with some tinkering at the cooking stage a decent curry can be made whatever specific variety is being targeted ie korma to madras etc.
this is why i mentioned celery. i was searching for why Darth's had not come up to scratch as on paper it looks every bit as good as the saffron (if not better due to the wider selection of bulk veg and spices). consequently i would have expected both bases with a bit of tinkering to the madras recipe at cooking stage to have produced a decent result (albeit slightly different taste) ie both passed the finishing line together but wearing different colours.
what was interesting to me was that Bobby (i think) could not identify any improvement to the cooking of Darth's to bring it up to scratch. on that assumption saffron must be closer to BIR intent.
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Hard to argue with that logic I imagine, though Im sure someone will feel obliged to try ;)
;D Morning!
Interesting opinion, but I find that kris dhillons recipes are seriously lacking (including her base) so I dont think your suggestion is sound
Yes they are lacking but simple, minimalist and generic, so I would say they would be pretty good for a base comparison.
Id suspect that many of these bases will be iterations from a similar source (sauce? ). That is pat chapman, kris dhillon, or one of the other limited number of copycat curry cookbooks. These authors use tomatoes in their bases so other people copy them.
Iterations from a similar sauce? Do you mean variations on a similar sauce?
This makes me wonder if you have ever actually read these books, or are aware of the background of the authors...
I conclude that a base with tomatoes in it is logically less versatile than one without tomatoes in it. Hard to argue with that logic I imagine.
Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish.
By using no base in such recipes, you would more often than not, have a a few chunks of meat and finely chopped onion swimming in oil, tomato puree and spices.
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so you're saying that if a base gravy uses 1 tblsp chilli powder, and a curry recipe specifies the same (since it was designed for a different base in which chilli was omitted) you would add 2 tblsp, in fact doubling the quantity?
I'm saying that if a base contains 1 tbsp of chili powder, it's not very versatile and as a result of my curry cooking experience, I would avoid making it, as it is likely to dominate the dish.
If you are making bases that specify any spice in large volume, I understand that to get a decent result, you probably do have to alter the quantity of ingredients in the final dish.
What I'm trying to say however, is that if you find yourself having to do this your base is not versatile enough. An ideal base should be subtle enough so that you do not have to account for it when cooking your final dish.
So when comparing the two bases in this thread, I did not alter the ingredients of the curry to suit the base used. This meant that amongst other things, the versatility of two bases was being tested.
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;D Morning!
Yesssss bobby, theres always one ::)
Yes they are lacking but simple, minimalist and generic, so I would say they would be pretty good for a base comparison
"simple" "minimilistic" and "generic" bobby? :-\
But if they are crap bobby (and they are crap) the they arent really good for comparing anything are they now ::)
Iterations from a similar sauce? Do you mean variations on a similar sauce?
Let me simplify for you bobby. I mean that many of the base recipes here are likely to be variations on pat chapmans, kris dhillons, etc, which contain tomatoes. Get it? ::)
This makes me wonder if you have ever actually read these books, or are aware of the background of the authors..
I have no idea what you mean by that bobby, but I agree that you should probably wonder a bit more before proceeding to argue the toss just for the hell of it ;)
Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish
Huh? ::)
By using no base in such recipes, you would more often than not, have a a few chunks of meat and finely chopped onion swimming in oil, tomato puree and spices.
Huh? ::)
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Yesssss bobby, theres always one ::)
and here was me thinking the same thing ;)
But if they are crap bobby (and they are crap) the they arent really good for comparing anything are they now ::)
I wouldn't say they're crap. I'd say they're over simplified but have many of the underlying techniques correct. This simplicity lends itself to the base comparison. Since the curry is not too complex, the focus is on the base.
Let me simplify for you bobby. I mean that many of the base recipes here are likely to be variations on pat chapmans, kris dhillons, etc, which contain tomatoes. Get it? ::)
Oh, I understood the first time, I was just criticising your English. It would appear to me that you seem to think that BIR cooking was spawned by the arrival of Pat Chapman or Kris Dhillon. The BIR came before the BIR cookbook, and I think it's a safe bet to assume they have been using tomatoes in their base from the start. What we have leanred about base sauces here suggests that this is the case. (see SnS' statistic on tomato use in base recipes)
I have no idea what you mean by that bobby, but I agree that you should probably wonder a bit more before proceeding to argue the toss just for the hell of it ;)
Or perhaps you should actually read books before delivering reviews on them. To which of Pat Chapmans bases is it that you are referring? I can't think of any that are notably similar to the KD base.
Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish
Huh? ::)
:-\ I can't put it any more plainly than that!
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I find that kris dhillons recipes are seriously lacking (including her base)
I agree entirely that her recipes leave a lot to be desired, relying as they do on too much cumin an garam masala. You are so wrong about the base though. Its simplicity is its strong point and I haven't found many better bases. The fact that you find it lacking implies that you don't know how to achieve a suitable balance of base and added spices to give a good result. In other words it shows your lack of ability rather than a lack in the base.
Clearly the most versatile option is NO BASE...I conclude that a base with tomatoes in it is logically less versatile than one without tomatoes in it
Technically you are correct but you're just being a complete arse about it. BIRs use bases and the majority will include some tomato, end of story.
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What I'm trying to say however, is that if you find yourself having to do this your base is not versatile enough. An ideal base should be subtle enough so that you do not have to account for it when cooking your final dish.
But with any base you have to take into account the ingredients used when making a curry from it? If I want a non-tomatoey curry, I'd hardly use a tomatoey base would I? By your own logic, Darths would be a better base to use as there is no tomato in it, making it more versatile when used across a range of dishes? ;) The saffron base may be more bland, but it wouldn't work as well in hotter curries, so it would need to be modified in the curry recipe....agree?....Darth's base uses chilli, so to make mild curries from it you would have to omit the chilli....Saffron uses tomatoes, so won't work for non-tomatoey curries....now do you see my point? No matter which base you use you will always have to alter a final dish as per the base gravy bland or flavoursome, hot or mild....For a completely fair test, you would have to try every recipe against every base and compare results, you can't do it on a one-on-one, unrelated recipe-type test which you did in this case, as all three recipes were in some way bastardised by the others. ::) You can say which curry you may have preferred, but that gives no indication on the bases themselves really, as one recipe may just have happened to have a better mix of spices in the final dish due to certain ingredients being omitted by not being included in either the base or the madras recipe :-\
There isn't a one-size fits all in base gravies....and I'm glad of that. Otherwise there would only need to be one gravy recipe, one bhuna recipe etc etc....and how boring would that be? Vive la difference! :D (pardon my French :P )
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There isn't a one-size fits all in base gravies....and I'm glad of that. Otherwise there would only need to be one gravy recipe, one bhuna recipe etc etc....and how boring would that be? Vive la difference! :D (pardon my French :P )
I agree with your point here but you must agree that some bases are better than others. Is it not fair to conclude that Saffron is more versatile than Darths over a range of generic recipes though?
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But with any base you have to take into account the ingredients used when making a curry from it? If I want a non-tomatoey curry, I'd hardly use a tomatoey base would I? By your own logic, Darths would be a better base to use as there is no tomato in it, making it more versatile when used across a range of dishes? ;) The saffron base may be more bland, but it wouldn't work as well in hotter curries, so it would need to be modified in the curry recipe....agree?
Every generic BIR style curry has tomato in it. If you wanted to make a curry with no tomato in it, you would not be following a generic recipe. Therefore you should not be using a base designed to work for use with generic curry recipes.
A base sauce in our context is not a base for every recipe on the planet. As Rai says, if that's what your after, no base sauce is probably the key. For me a good base is one which is tailored towards working well with most generic curry recipes. A base with no tomato is less likely to do this than a similar base with tomato.
Saffron base would work perfectly well with hotter curries. Why wouldn't it? Chili is certainly one spice that is best added to personal taste.
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you must agree that some bases are better than others.
Well no actually I don't. :)
For a start define "better". Your idea of better might not be my idea of better (in fact going by your aguments in this thread it almost definitely isn't). I don't know about you but I've never actually tasted a genuine BIR base sauce (I've seen a few). So just how do you know when you've cracked it? I don't think you can until you've tasted a few of the real things. We're (almost) all in the same boat in that respect.
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And I very much doubt that BIR kormas or passandas have tomatoes in them...
Oh I'm pretty sure they do, but only that which is in the base sauce. It's just that the ratio of cream to base is so high that they come out yellowish in colour.
comment removed by SnS
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I really think this tomato thing needs putting into some perspective.
Most of the bases posted on this forum have very little tomato or tomato paste, but nearly all contain some.
The Saffron base has 2 medium tomatoes and 200 ml of tinned tomatoes mixed in with about 4.5 litres of base. Not a lot. I hardly think this quantity is anywhere near enough to provide a dominant tomato taste to the final base ... and the reason for this ... to maintain versatility.
Whatever your opinion, Bobby has produced results from his own experiment (with a good subsequent post).
SnS ;D
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Ok, so the thread's been cleaned up and unlocked.
Rather than continue to go around in circles, would anyone like to summarise what has been learned from this discussion?
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Ok then, I'll go first :P
Rai is a... - ;D just kidding mate :P
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There is absolutely no point in arguing subjectiveness... To sum up -- I went into a Indian restaurant in Glasgow my mate swears as being the Curry in Glasgow and he lives out the place - I tried it - then tried it again just to be sure and the curry was one of the worst currys I have ever eat in my life (both times) - The taste and consistancy was just not what I like at all - but to him it obviously is.
The only thing I trust in this life in regards to food and cooking is my own taste buds. ;)
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Fair cop. This thread has left me a little melancholy.
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Fair cop. This thread has left me a little melancholy.
One of the best threads in ages, great reading anyway, just a shame it couldn't stay on topic without turning into a slagging match. Whats up for the BB comparison test next then, how about start on the main dishes with a vindaloo face of ;)
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One of the best threads in ages
Thanks CK :D it's certainly been explosive in terms of post numbers and content!
I think the next comparison will involve both bases again, only this time with the bespoke recipes in place. Darth base with Darth madras and Saffron base with whatever recipe we decide would go with it (SnS mentioned the one bundled with the base is an incomplete work)
This is less of a base off and more of a complete start to finish recipe-off. I hope I still have more of both bases :o
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For me a good base is one which is tailored towards working well with most generic curry recipes. A base with no tomato is less likely to do this than a similar base with tomato.
The focus should never have been on the tomatoes, rather on the fact that two different bases using completely different spices cannot be used to judge which makes a better 3rd party curry ::). Unless you're saying that the mix of spices in the base and the final curry have no relevance to each other (and if you do think that, then you're wrong, blend of spices is all important in a curry, it's what makes a curry what it is :P)
Tomato is also added in regard to personal taste, as is any ingredient ::)....If the saffron base would need modification to work with certain recipes, (whether that be the chilli, tomato, paprika or whatever else) it's certainly true of all bases as personal taste comes into play in everything, not to mention the curry recipe which you will be using to make a final dish, a point which you constantly refuse to accept. No doubt the tomato in the saffron base is an essential ingredient, otherwise I they'd bother to have it in there :-\
I disagree strongly with you that a base needs tomato in it, as proof is given in the form of Darth's base, no tomato but certainly one of the resounding favourites if you read the posts on this forum. ;) Missing or adding a half teaspoon of certain spices will greatly alter the final dish (i.e. substituting smoked for sweet paprika or vice versa).
The argument can be put just as strongly for either side, and forgive me if I say it, but I'm right, and you're wrong ;D If you do not modify a recipe to suit the base then you could end up with some real disasters, there are enough threads on this board dedicated to mishaps where ingredients have been substituted, missed altogether or excessive/inadequate quantities used ::) so what conclusion do we draw from this? it has to be that mixing and matching recipes does not always work and therefore a "one base that fits all" is a redundant ideal. :-X
Can you explain then why some curry houses use more than one base? Surely if they could get away with just the one, as you suggest, it would save time and maybe money too?
As has already been borne out on this board, getting members to agree on one base sauce of choice is impossible, and some of those bases are very similar in content ;)...this experiment shows one thing, that you obviously prefer the saffron base to Darth's....and no-one can say you're wrong, but in some of the principles you've put up as argument are flawed, as was the taste test imo.
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so what conclusion do we draw from this? it has to be that mixing and matching recipes does not always work and therefore a "one base that fits all" is a redundant ideal. :-X
In which case, what is your opinion on recipes that ask for "base sauce (any good one will do)"?
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Can I ask for suggestions from those of you who consider this comparison unfair, as to how to provide a fair comparison between two base sauces, without adding variables such as curry recipe.
Do you just think that it's impossible / irrelevant?
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so what conclusion do we draw from this? it has to be that mixing and matching recipes does not always work and therefore a "one base that fits all" is a redundant ideal. :-X
In which case, what is your opinion on recipes that ask for "base sauce (any good one will do)"?
What I take that to mean is use a base sauce of your choice (but be aware that different spices are used so modify the recipe?) simply disregarding the base recipe may mean that double quantities of ingredients may be used (with chilli it may be way too hot/mild, too tomatoey/not tomatoey enough, too garlicky/gingery etc etc etc....). Obviously this would explain why some people have wildly differing reviews about the same curry recipe? More experienced curry makers (I would assume) would know what is too much or not enough of some ingredients when they check a recipe out and so modify their recipes whilst others blindly follow the recipe and get different or poorer results. Again, I say that when someone posts a recipe, they should state which base they used to make it - that way people can try the curry as it is meant to be tasted by the author, obviously afterwards you would change the recipe (if you liked it enough) to better suit your personal taste (if it doesn't quite already) or use it with a different base which is of your own personal preference.
Some curries are only an ingredient or two away from one another, yet totally different dishes and the blend of spices between base and curry is all important to the final taste, for a truly fair comparison of bases we'd have to cook each different curry recipe with each different base recipe and choose the best "all-rounder" based on votes by members, one person's opinion is not enough.....as I'm sure Secret Satan will point out, in one way or another, "opinions are like arseholes.....we all have one - sadly, it doesn't mean we can all toot the same tune" ;D Even then it's doubtful whether a truly accurate measure would out as no doubt people would fight over who's the best cook, who's got the best palate etc etc because at the end of the day, it's all personal preference and no-one will be able to convince anyone else that their ideal curry is the wrong ideal curry......it will always come down to handbags at ten paces I'm afraid :P ;D
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I'm enjoying hearing how other people interpret recipes. I'm always been either a "follow the recipe to mark" kind of guy (always on the first time using a recipe), or a complete freestyle curry artist, doing my own thing.
The freestyling sometimes comes out great, but I can never replicate it :P
The follow the recipe to the mark technique gives me more consistent results however.
I think there is a lot to be said about a***holes and opinions, and you're right - you may not enjoy a curry that I do. That makes things tough though, as we're sharing recipes but not tastes...
I'm beginning to feel that this is becoming a really informative thread. I'm certainly learning a lot about the way that other members do their thing.
Hopefully we can refrain from bitching, moaning and slagging for a while because I feel this thread is maturing and offering some new insight, for me at least.
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What concerns me Bobby is that you seem to be interpreting the results of your experiment as a valid test for the comparison of base sauces which it clearly isn't for all the reasons that domi, me, and others have already stated.
All it demonstrates is that for your personal taste, and cooked with your personal technique, and with this particular curry recipe, that you prefer the one made with the Saffron base. That doesn't automatically make the Saffron base is in any way superior (or indeed inferior) to Darth's base or any other base.
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Following the recipe is OK for less confident cooks, which is why I feel it's important to specify a base to use. You could make a madras with the saffron base, obviously you'd have to alter the chilli in the curry recipe as the base gravy does not contain it..... but if someone were to use Stew's base recipe, which contains a tablespoon of chilli, the result would be closer to a vindaloo which might not be what the individual is wanting :-\ other spices obviously play a part as do tomatoes, too little tomato can ruin a dish, (but it can be salvaged) but if it's in the base and in the final curry recipe, too much tomato in a sauce can ruin it completely.
The more curries you cook, the more you get to know what's right, and instinctively alter a recipe to suit, so differences in bases may not be all that important, but to someone new to curry-making it makes all the difference in the world. :)
I agree wholeheartedly with what SS said in his post above, the comparison results really mean nothing to anyone but yourself, although it's always good to read what someone's opinion is.....but at the end of the day it's only one man's opinion. ;) I wonder how well the saffron base would measure up against Darth's using his recipe, and vice-versa....which would be a fair test, but it would take the whole forum to cook everything the same way, using the exact same ingredients, which would be too hard to do methinks. :-\
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it's always good to read what someone's opinion is...
Absolutely and I wasn't belittleing Bobby's efforts if that's the way it came across. I think it's a great post and a great subject, just look at all the talk it's generated.
By the way where is darths 100% base, I can't seem to find it.
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its here santa
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,674.0.html
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Cheers unclbuck!
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all the best debates become heated, I'm sure we all have backs (or backsides 8) ) broad enough to bear the strains ;D as long as things don't denegrate into petty back-biting I'm all for it! ;)
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Following the recipe is OK for less confident cooks, which is why I feel it's important to specify a base to use.
You're absolutely right. I've been making BIR style curries for so long now that I forget just how much of a black art it is to the uninitiated. That got me thinking. What would I think of the first curry I cooked from this forum using any base and any recipe if I had never cooked BIR style before but had eaten in BIRs?
Answer. I think I would be bloodywell impressed that on my first try I managed to at least approximate what I have had in restaurants.
I really wish this type of forum was going when I got into this lark, it would have saved me days of experimenting and bags of wasted ingredients.
My point is that while for the oldies like me mixing and matching bases and recipes is not ideal, for the beginner it isn't a real issue.
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ah but without experimenting and getting things wrong, you wouldn't have been able to get them right SS :P You get to know how spices smell too raw or overcooked, which you can't get from just reading a recipe and both of which can ruin a curry.
Every one of us is searching for their own ideal curry, and I'm happy to say I've found mine...but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop looking for more recipes ;D Bases are as important to the old as to the new, we'll all tweak recipes in some way to suit ourselves, but it doesn't then mean that the base is flawed, it's just not to our taste.
Oh....and cooking skills and techniques all come into play too :o another thing that comes with experience ;)
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As far as I know, all BIR's use one base for all dishes
I agree. Kitchens I've had sight of only appear to have a single large vat of base, which was used for everything they make, at least for the duration of the time I was watching.
One trick I thought of, to use for dinner parties at home is to use more than one base, to try and add a bit more variety to the dishes, than you typically get from a single BIR. And to use a different spice mix too, like Rajah in one base and Bruce Edwards in another.
Regards
George
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Ok then, I'll go first :P
Rai is a... - ;D just kidding mate :P
So youre determined to immediately continue where you left off are you bobby? :-\
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So youre determined to immediately continue where you left off are you bobby? :-\
Oh come on Rai, I was just playin! :P Anyway you deserve it after your nappy related antics (lol, that came across wrong)
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for me - Too many words confusing the learning. So very simple summary
We crave know-how to make near restaurant/takeaway std curries. We act collectively to help each other as alone we have no chance. We all have opinions which is good. Telling people their wrong only helps self ego.
The post uses a control (rajver madras) to compare 2 bases and finds 1 base better than the other. This is perfectly ligament and relevant.
To satisfy our craving we follow the BIR approach of a base (or maybe two) which delivers the potential to make many dishes. This is a base which passes a threshold (gets the nearest to producing a curry of restaurant/takeaway standard). Individuals will make changes (to the base, dish recipe & technique) as they see fit for their taste buds. This has nothing to do with the threshold and is opinion.
It?s likely that both bases actually pass the threshold. We can postulate on why we think having passed the threshold 1 base is better than another but we don?t know and it probably doesn?t matter (the final cooking stage & recipe now being the crucial factors).
eg
I made the saffron base just recently. It clearly passed the threshold. I will reduce the turmeric by 1/5 in future and swop salad pots to normal pots. This is opinion and does not affect the quality of the base.
I made the ronnoc base a few weeks earlier. It did not pass the threshold. It clearly had potential but I could not work out what was wrong and would take too long by trial an error so it?s off my list. It?s was either the celery or the spices but that?s just opinion.
Thanks once again bobby for spot on post. i won't be making darth's next as planned and will need to look again at the poll for my next challenge (I do remain pretty settled with the rajver parker21 and saffron bases feeling that a significant step up from this quality is unlikely).
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Thanks Jerry, very well put! :)
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Telling people their wrong only helps self ego.
The post uses a control (rajver madras) to compare 2 bases and finds 1 base better than the other. This is perfectly ligament and relevant.
Relevant to what, exactly? The only person it has any relevance to is Bobby as it is based solely on his opinion alone. :-X
I think a better way to summarise this experiment is thus:
The rajver bhuna curry recipe (in Bobby's opinion) suits the saffron base better than Darths, however, when used in comparison with the madras recipe, the two bases were very similar (I don't quite see how, given the differences in ingredients, but I'll take Bobby at his word). Maybe if BB had used different curry recipes, the results may have been reversed..... ;).
Curry houses, no matter how many bases they use be it 1,2 or 3, base their curry recipes around their own particular base and the spices or ingredients used therefore it is natural to assume that any curry recipe must be dependent on the base itself, not the other way around and so I alter recipes to suit the base (unless they already suit it, that is - but only testing and experimenting will show this).
Of course, certain curry recipes may work with a wide range of bases, others will not. A bad curry is not always down to poor technique, lack of cooking skill or inferior ingredients, it may just be that the wrong base and curry recipes have been used in conjunction with one another - this does not mean that one is necessarily better than the other, it just means that the spices/ingredients in one may suit the spices/ingredients better in another :-\, which makes this generally a poor test to me. You may give a curry 6/10 when using one base, but it could get a 10/10 when used with another, differently spiced base. I conclude that each base is as versatile as the person's tastes who is using it 8)
Hence my conclusion that mixing and matching recipes (although it may sometimes work) is not always guaranteed to work. Ergo, it shouldn't always be done, far better to test with the recipe author's base of choice when used in making the curry recipe as it will do away with any inconsistencies technique/ingredient-wise.
Most curry houses use base gravies, yet the difference in taste, flavour and appearance vary from restaurant to restaurant, they could all actually be use the same curry recipe, but the base makes all the difference and so I'd doubt you'd get the same curry from any two curry houses although they all may taste similar, but not identical, although each of us would express a preference there would always be winners and losers however it doesn't mean that anyone is right or wrong. ;)
When I said that Bobby was wrong, it was in his supposition that because a recipe is better suited to the one base rather than the other that the second one must therefore be inferior, which is wrong, but he can't be wrong in saying that he preferred it ;D because that's purely his own, very personal opinion, nothing more...which is always good to read...and it has given rise to some interesting debate. :D
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Domi,
well said. i'm glad we all remain friends.
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I think a better way to summarise this experiment is thus:
Domi - go on then, you've sold me :)
In hindsight the comparison probably is completely irrelevant. I was trying to compare two bases on their ability to work for the generic case to determine which is more versatile. The problem is, that there is no generic case because every recipe could result in a more well balanced dish when coupled with its ideal base sauce. In an ideal world each base should come with a handful of the classic curry recipes we would like, to be used in conjunction with it.
My conclussion...
My girlfriend and I both prefer the Saffron base in conjunction with the Bhuna recipe specified earlier, than the Darth base in conjunction with said recipe.
My girlfriend slightly prefers the Saffron base in conjunction with the Rajver Madras recipe than the Darth base in conjunction with said recipe, while I find both equally delicious and pretty similar tasting.
What about other recipes? I don't know, I've not compared them 8)
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In an ideal world each base should come with a handful of the classic curry recipes we would like, to be used in conjunction with it.
Which is exactly why I prefer posters to state which base was used, it's the best way to test a recipe. I'll be making the saffron base tonight and making a saffron recipe tomorrow, the replies in the thread look very promising - excepting the odd one or two - and I'm looking forward to trying it out. ;D
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Many thanks to anyone and everyone who runs so many tests and comparisons. Hoefully, some real gems will come out of it. Please be sure to write up a summary of exactly how it's done (a cohesive recipe) if you come across any real winning combinations.
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In an ideal world each base should come with a handful of the classic curry recipes we would like, to be used in conjunction with it.
Which is exactly why I prefer posters to state which base was used, it's the best way to test a recipe. I'll be making the saffron base tonight and making a saffron recipe tomorrow, the replies in the thread look very promising - excepting the odd one or two - and I'm looking forward to trying it out. ;D
Hi Domi
There are no detailed "Saffron base" curry recipes as such, but there are a few who have posted detailed curry recipes using the Saffron base. Which recipe do you plan to use?
SnS ;D
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ooh I don't know yet, I'll cross that bridge tomorrow, unless you can recommend one to me, SnS?
Have to say the base is bubbling away at the mo and it smells great!
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ooh I don't know yet, I'll cross that bridge tomorrow, unless you can recommend one to me, SnS?
Have to say the base is bubbling away at the mo and it smells great!
Hi Domi
Now diverted to here .... ;)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2271.msg22139.html#msg22139