Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: SnS on December 19, 2007, 07:34 PM
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Today was our company Christmas lunch which, you guessed it, was in my favourite Indian restaurant in Lincoln.
Raj is the manager and head chef of the Saffron - a really great guy and a great restaurant. He also instructs the other three chefs and they in turn stick to his recipes to ensure consistency.
Today I asked him for a tour of the kitchen and would he teach me a few things about BIR cooling. Well not only did he agree, but offered to come round to my house for a one to one tuition (I offered to pay but he declined).
This will now be arranged for after the Christmas period. He has also asked me if I would like to go into the kitchens for an all day session on a Saturday (when they're at their busiest) so I can watch them make the gravy and the individual curries. Great eh?
Anyway, back to today - the Kitchen tour. Well here's a few facts that left be gobsmacked.
1) The BIR taste can never be achieved by freezing the curry gravy. He tells me that whilst some restaurants keep their gravy for up to 3 days (not frozen), after only 24 hours the gravy will lose it's flavour and darken. It should always be used fresh. He agrees that a completed curry dish can improve in flavour when frozen - but definitely not the gravy.
2) The gravy comprises onions, garlic & ginger puree, green pepper, tinned tomatoes, a little of the four main spices, water and oil. Nothing else. It goes through two cooking processes.
3) Never use Spanish onions or king size onions, they are too sweet. Only use medium size cooking onions.
4) The majority of recipes come from the one curry gravy, but there are three used to cover all recipes.
5) Garam masala is not used in the majority of dishes and never used in fish or shellfish dishes.
6) Only spices used in varying quantities for majority of dishes are coriander, cumin, turmeric and chilli. No other spices are used in the majority of dishes.
7) Only other ingredients added in varying quantities are garlic & ginger puree, tomato puree, salt, lentil paste (dhansak) and fresh coriander ... and of course the gravy.
Now the gobsmack ... It is not necessary to use a prepared gravy to achieve the BIR taste. ... and according to Raj, a better BIR taste can be achieved without using a gravy. :o
I will be arranging an all day session some time in January. If there are any specific questions (not too difficult please) that you would like me to ask him then please post.
:)
Regards
SNS
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That's some excellent info smokenspices. Will be interested to hear about your tuition!
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Nice one smokenspices, ;) Sounds like you are well in there my friend. Great post of your observations so far. Looking forward, (as I am sure will the whole forum) to your outing in January. ;D
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Excellent work, i can not wait to hear about your vist.
Stew 8)
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Great post SnS,
Always great to see people getting invited into real BIR kitchens! 8)
Here are some questions that I'd appreciate you asking, if you could, please:
General:
- Do they use stock? If so, what type and in what?
- What does he ascribe that "BIR taste and smell" to? At what stage is it developed?
- How important does he think high heat is in developing the taste and smell?
- Does he think the "taste and smell" can be reproduced at home? If not, why not?
- What type oil do they use? Do they use "reclaimed" oil? If so, from where?
- Do they use ghee (butter or vegetable)? If so, for what?
- Do they use a "curry powder" or "spice mix" (or similar)? If so, for what?
- What other masalas and pastes do they use (e.g. tikka, korma, etc)?
- Do they use commercial blends of spices and pastes (e.g Pataks)? If so, which and for what?
- What types of pots and pans do they use?
- Do they use MSG? If so, in what?
- Would he like to help us on this forum or know of someone who can?
- Would he like to help us with our project to replicate BIR curries at home or know of someone who can? (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2187.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2187.0))
Curry Base:
- How much oil, and of what type, do they use in the curry base?
- Do they salvage the oil from the base (or deep fat fryer?) and use it elsewhere?
- Do they fry the onions or just boil them?
- How do they get the bitterness out of the onions?
- What's the overall cooking time for what quanity of curry base?
- Do they use high heat to cook the curry base?
- How do the three curry bases differ? Where is each used?
I'll add questions to the list as I think of them....I'd recommend other take the opportunity to do so too!
Have fun!
PS: ....and I expect ALL the staff enjoyed a curry did they? ;)
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Now the gobsmack ... It is not necessary to use a prepared gravy to achieve the BIR taste. ... and according to Raj, a better BIR taste can be achieved without using a gravy. :o
Regards
SNS
I hope that's true
I'm so looking forward to your posts
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I'm so jealous! I can't believe you guys actually manage to get these opportunities. I think it's time for me to try getting into a BIR kitchen... I really can't wait for your result. Great job sns.
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That's fantastic Smokenspices. By the time you get to your session in January you will have a list of questions as long as your arm! How about taking a camcorder with you? CQ
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That's fantastic Smokenspices. By the time you get to your session in January you will have a list of questions as long as your arm! How about taking a camcorder with you? CQ
I was thinking the same thing - or at the very least - a camera and a dictaphone! :P
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Hahaha, this poor chef has no idea what he's in for!!! He'll wish he'd never met you when this is over ;D
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Hahaha, this poor chef has no idea what he's in for!!! He'll wish he'd never met you when this is over ;D
Yeh you're probably right Bobby - but I hope not.
At the moment I get the impression that Raj appreciates someone actually taking a genuine interest in what he does best!
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I visited lincoln last year and went to the Saffron . got to say the food was fantastic. :)
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I visited lincoln last year and went to the Saffron . got to say the food was fantastic. :)
Nice to hear it Marc. Not just me over-rating it then?
Would you describe the Saffron as a good example of a BIR??
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I hope you know how lucky you are! ???
On a more serious note, would you say that the restaurant curries have the "taste" and the "smell"?
I ask because I think I stand a good chance at getting some kind of demo at The Balaka, St Andrews. It won Pat C's best 2001 but although the food is great it's aimed at the high end market and isn't in keeping with classic British back street takeout. I would prefer somewhere more classic as that's the flavour I'm out to match.
It's intresting that they use the three bases, as I seem to remember the same in that restaurant Gordon Ramsay sorted out on Hell's Kitchen. Can you please try and find out what that's all about?
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I hope you know how lucky you are! ???
On a more serious note, would you say that the restaurant curries have the "taste" and the "smell"?
I ask because I think I stand a good chance at getting some kind of demo at The Balaka, St Andrews. It won Pat C's best 2001 but although the food is great it's aimed at the high end market and isn't in keeping with classic British back street takeout. I would prefer somewhere more classic as that's the flavour I'm out to match.
It's intresting that they use the three bases, as I seem to remember the same in that restaurant Gordon Ramsay sorted out on Hell's Kitchen. Can you please try and find out what that's all about?
I think so Bobby. It's hard to tell whether it has both the taste and smell of the "back street" curry. I certainly wouldn't put it at the "high end market", as good as it is, although they do add some frills.
Of the two other curry bases, it was interesting that one was for the Korma and Pasanda type curry and I think he said the other was used for the tikka masala's (where they also used some Garam masala).
Good luck with The Balaka. 8)
SNS
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Great post SnS,
General:
- Do they use stock? If so, what type and in what?
- What does he ascribe that "BIR taste and smell" to? At what stage is it developed?
- How important does he think high heat is in developing the taste and smell?
- Does he think the "taste and smell" can be reproduced at home? If not, why not?
- What type oil do they use? Do they use "reclaimed" oil? If so, from where?
- Do they use ghee (butter or vegetable)? If so, for what?
- Do they use a "curry powder" or "spice mix" (or similar)? If so, for what?
- What other masalas and pastes do they use (e.g. tikka, korma, etc)?
- Do they use commercial blends of spices and pastes (e.g Pataks)? If so, which and for what?
- What types of pots and pans do they use?
- Do they use MSG? If so, in what?
- Would he like to help us on this forum or know of someone who can?
- Would he like to help us with our project to replicate BIR curries at home or know of someone who can? (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2187.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2187.0))
Curry Base:
- How much oil, and of what type, do they use in the curry base?
- Do they salvage the oil from the base (or deep fat fryer?) and use it elsewhere?
- Do they fry the onions or just boil them?
- How do they get the bitterness out of the onions?
- What's the overall cooking time for what quanity of curry base?
- Do they use high heat to cook the curry base?
- How do the three curry bases differ? Where is each used?
I'll add questions to the list as I think of them....
Crikey CA - Im sure Raj was expecting education not interrogation. I'll do my best to get answers to all your questions though. :o
Regards
SnS ;)
Du vill anzer zeez kves-chuns !!!! :-X
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Oh I'm sure you'll present the questions in the delicate, discrete and palletable manner that is your want ;)
I think that the limited number of spices you mention would be about right for most of the main curries (plus fresh toms, etc)...e.g. bhuna, madras, vindaloo, jalfrezi, etc.
I expect he uses some whole spices (though and mixes of spices) for things like rice.
I expect he also uses a tandoori masala (maybe a commercial powder or paste) for CTM, etc
I'd be pretty sure he uses a cream/evap/coconut/almond paste (of come concoction) for korma and CTM
I'd be pretty sure he uses other commercial pastes (and possibly masalas) too.
No fenugreek (dried leaves) suprises me a little (he'll surely use it if he makes baltis?)
STOCK is a big question mark for me! :-\
OIL (source of) is another! :-\
HEAT is another (I'm sure this creates "the magic" as with Chinese cooking) :-\
If you only got answers to these questions I'd be happy :P
.....well...sort of.... ::)
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You are the man.!!I am proud of you as you are going where not many have gone before.cory ander has hit on all the right questions to ask, so good luck. It will be a lot to take in so you might have to ask your new best friend for a few lessons if you can push your luck.Ask him if he would like to be famous and do some articles or recipes for this site.Looking forward to learning from you mate.rob
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sns. No you are not overating it . The dishes i tried were really nice . would love to duplicate them at home. Easier said than done ;). So good luck .
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I can't wait to hear more on this topic!
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hi guys/gls
i see that life is circular again. i mentioned the three pot method a couple of years ago and we have recipes for all of them on this site.
terry posted a quick korma type paste made up from coconut powder sugar ground almonds and cream. pete posted a recipe for red masala paste used in the CTM demo he had and im sure that i reposted both of them under the heading 3pot method acheived? if my memory serves me correctly.
good work in getting the chef interested. easy when you know how!
last night i had a completely free meal from Rajver in payment for delivering their new menus to about 800 houses in my local village. and also wrote out christmas card along with bottle of wine and 4 beers.to say thanks so i will be pushing for another demo and push even harder for a day in the kitchen aswell. in the new year :)
meal tasted even better than normal
set meal for one chicken tikka starter onion bhajis with salads, chicken vindaloo pilau rice bombay aloo naan and pops and extra large vindaloo sauce also a lime pickle and 2 mint sauces it all should have cost 20 pounds but mine for free. the key was i'm a postman that normally works inside but i was covering my postmans delivery and the last drop is next door to my house oops!
and what with the time of year it was hard work.
but worth every penny ;)
anyway Merry Christmas to you all and happy currying!
regards
gary
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Happy Xmas parker21 good you liked your curry, sounds like you earned it!
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Good man Parker21,
Im down my parents for xmas, will be driving past the Rajver, i may even pop in a grab a menu, scan it and post up on the site.
Stew
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Hey parker21
I remember your posts about the 3 pot method. Do you have the links to the various recipes that you mentioned? It would be good to have all three recipes collected together in one post. Perhaps admin or moderators could do this?
Interesting that the restaurant in Nottingham that Gordon Ramsey featured recently used that method too.
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Went for a take-away earlier tonight.
Raj (Manager) says "can you make it here at 12.30 on Saturday? You and I are making the curry gravy". :o
Well who am I to refuse. Cant wait .....
Hopefully I'll have stacks to report back to you by the evening.
Watch this space.
SnS
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SNS,
I'm also very much looking forward to what you find out. I know a couple of owners here, but not all that well. Next time I go back to my fave place in town, I'm taking my notebook and my camera. At the very least, I'll have pictures of the finished dish. Best case, the chef I talked to before will be there, and I can see what I can find out too.
I think whatever you come up with can be used as a comparison/contrast with anyone else's experiences to see what things are common and which ones are more likely to vary from place to place.
Best of luck on Saturday!
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Results of my visit to Saffron with recipe for base gravy ... here
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2271.10.html
SnS ;D