Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: lorrydoo on December 01, 2007, 01:47 PM
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This is a follow up thread from the "How much would you be willing to pay?" thread, which I have re-posted below.
Quite a few people have shown an interest and subsequently pledged various amounts of money. I don't think the money is the main issue at the moment but rather are there enough people interested to make this a viable proposition.
If you are interested in joining this venture can you just post your name so we can see if there might be enough people to take it forward.
Origional post;
I was thinking the other day about my local BIR and how much I would be willing to pay for their recipe for a Madras/vindaloo. It would have to be 100% guaranteed to recreate their recipe to the point that it would be indistinguishable from their own every time. I would also have to be able to make it in my own kitchen.
After pondering on this for a while, I would probably be willing to pay ?100.
What would you be willing to pay for your favourite dish from your favourite BIR using my wish list above?
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Stew (Admin) - 50 GBP pledged.
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I'd be in for 50 quid.
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I would be up for it for 50 quid but depends on where it will be held.
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I would be up for it for 50 quid but depends on where it will be held.
It's got to be done at home, otherwise what's the point?
But for a home demo with the "taste", yes, 50 pounds
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It's got to be done at home, otherwise what's the point?
But for a home demo with the "taste", yes, 50 pounds
As I suggested on the other, parallel thread, the best bet would be for two demos as part of the deal - one at the BIR, followed almost immediately by one at home - same day, same ingredients (checked and secured), same everything apart from the blast furnace heat. But if they only agree to one demo, it should be at the BIR. Otherwise, if the end result lacks the taste and is genenerally considered a flop, they will simply say 'told you so, it can't be done at home?' And still demand payment. I've never been convinced by that dismisaal of home cooking or any claimed tests or experiments which I've read about anywhere on the Internet - real, contrived or otherwise.
A key challenge will be to get anyone to agree to payment by results and avoid a major dispute if you didn't want to pay. You'd be offering a lot of money - several hundred pounds. The end result MUST have the taste and be generally accepted as pretty damned good, otherwise the chef will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Even if there was a control sample, like I suggested before - cooked at the BIR, and we all said the home version tasted nowhere near as good, they might say it did and we were just making excuses to avoid paying, even if it was GBP50 or GBP100 for the demos and several more hundred pounds as a 'success fee'.
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Your right George, there might be too many pitfalls to get this thing off the ground but I think if enough people show a genuine interest then that would be a starting point. We could then take it further but if we do get to the next step, yes I think it will get more difficult. At the end of the day we all want the same thing and if I could have my own personal curry wish granted, I would ask for the perfect BIR curry written down as a recipe and it would replicate the best BIR every time at home.
Could money buy such a wish?
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It seems near impossible to get this one down without the help of an impartial third party educated on BIR curry... Unless... We put rival BIR's against each other.
Have the head chefs from two or more BIRs (the more the better) go at it in separate but similar kitchens. The ingredients are written for us in list form and we will purchased by us to avoid the use of any secret ingredients. We note their methods and at the end, gather the chefs, judge the results and give the cash collected by us to 1st place. This way we also get to learn the recipes from all the other BIRs involved in the competition for free.
I Have another idea but it involves a BIR chef, kidnap and torture.
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To be honest with you i am more than willing to part with 50GBP if someone can negotiate entry into the kitchens and is shown how to make the base sauce and a finished curry and can take notes and film it.
The first step is to find a curry house who are willing to show us.
I dont really mind about getting them to show someone at home, we will just scale down the recipes and try at home ourselves.
Would be a great adventure whatever happens and if we can post the video on this site...even better.
Stew 8)
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Stew, if we truly managed to buy the REAL DEAL then we might potentially have our own money spinner on our hands. In essence, those who stumped up the cash would act like a syndicate of share holders and could potentially market their product.
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Hi Lorrydoo,
I suppose you are correct although i am more interested in making a proper curry at home. Even if i could do at home i would still visit curry houses as i love it too much.
Lets hope we can take this forward, Haldi are you going to have a chat with the curry house you recommended?
S
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Stew, what kind of money do you think we might need to raise in order to tempt a good BIR chef?
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250 GBP would do it, i am sure any decent curry house would give us 2 hours for that money, a full demo of the cury gravy, the ingrediants laid out, the process of putting the base together and the cooking of two final dishes of our choice.
All of the above plus capturing on video and ability to take notes during the session.
I think that would be good value for 250GBP, and if we are happy we will be back for more lessons.
Stew
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Lets hope we can take this forward, Haldi are you going to have a chat with the curry house you recommended?
S
Do you mean Bengal Cuisine in London?
I think there could be a chance there, because they nearly do that anyhow
I don't think any of my local BIR's would do it
These places are very small
If they get busy when you are in the kitchens,you are really in the way
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Do you mean Bengal Cuisine in London?
Is Bengal Cuisine known to have the superior "pre-1990" BIR taste we're after? As another member said, those superior curries are becoming harder to find but must be worth travelling for.
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You may or may not think this is relevant to this discussion, but around 20 years ago I placed an ad. with a box number in a regional newspaper under 'catering vacancies' which offered ?500 if an Indian chef would contact me and reveal the secret of the restaurant curry. None did, although some weirdies did write to me. I put the lack of response down to suspician. What I am saying is that you need to be very careful how you make your approach.
D.
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For some reason the BIR curry game is full of scammers and people trying to make money out of other peoples desperation to know. Just look at all the ebay auctions, dodgy ebooks going round and the people we have had on here claiming all sorts of rubbish with an angle to making money.
Unless the chef was known to one of us I would be very wary of handing over a large sum of money.
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If the chef was known to you personally I would be very wary if he was prepared to take money for a secret he would not otherwise reveal.
D.
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Uumm! Haldi and I both had demos at the Bengal Cuisine and to be honest with you the dishes did not have the smell or taste that you are all looking for. As for moi, I am quite happy with the dishes that I produce now. Just go down the spiced oil road. CQ
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Hi Naga Dave, your right, all the advice i've ever had and a demo cost me nothing.
The advantage you have if you know the chef is hoping they wouldn't rip you off :(
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Sadly I think both CK and Naga Dave make good points. I can't but help wondering if the 'secret' of the taste, if there is one, is that it is something that would contravene H&S rules. Like re-using oil for example.
It also might explain why there are less BIRs (at least anecdotally) that have the 'taste' - they are cleaning up their act, maybe being driven by health concerns perhaps, but the net result is something similar to what we do at home i.e use less oil and don't reuse it.
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It also might explain why there are less BIRs (at least anecdotally) that have the 'taste' - they are cleaning up their act, maybe being driven by health concerns...
This is one of the best suggestions I've yet heard on this matter. Smart thinking! You might well be right.
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Is Bengal Cuisine known to have the superior "pre-1990" BIR taste we're after? As another member said, those superior curries are becoming harder to find but must be worth travelling for.
The BC demo gravies do not have the "taste" when made at home
Maybe they need to be full sized to work, in which case we would need a completely new recipe
I didn't try a curry where they used the main curry gravy pot
Does anyone live near enough to try one?
We've got loads of members, there must be someone in London near Brick Lane
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I can get to brick lane no worries.
I will investigate this.
S
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George, I think Fumble might be right also when he mentioned that good BIRs are becoming a it of a rarity and this might be due to health and safety issues. But how do the good BIRs remain good over the years because they must also be subject to the same health and safety laws? Or could it be the good ones cheat?
My favourite BIR (not a restaurant but a takeaway) has been around for years and is extremely popular and very well known around these parts. When you order a chicken Madras or Vindaloo you have to specifically ask for "breast meat" or you end up getting the more undesirable parts of the chicken. This to my mind must mean that they cook whole chickens on mass, probably boiling them. Their curry sauce has a very strong chicken flavoured component to it but not like you would think. Although it is strong, it in no way overwhelms everything and in fact it is more like a subtle after taste. I have tried to recreate this effect using various methods including very concentrated chicken stock and stock cubes, this has always failed because it overwhelmed every thing. Which brings me back to the health and safety and good BIR issue, the poor BIRs I have been to also have this chicken flavour but it is either too strong or virtually undetectable.
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I Have another idea but it involves a BIR chef, kidnap and torture.
Been there, done that...or was it a dream? :)
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Just go down the spiced oil road. CQ
That may be part of it but it ain't the whole.
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I can't but help wondering if the 'secret' of the taste, if there is one, is that it is something that would contravene H&S rules. Like re-using oil for example.
I'm pretty sure that there is an element of truth in that, the council hygiene inspectors are more thorough these days.
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I can get to brick lane no worries.
I will investigate this.
S
Any news Stu?
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I'm "in" in principle, but I'm not convinced it's best to approach a BIR that already provides cooking lessons (i.e. Bengal Cuisine) and that members have already been to (i.e. Haldi and Curry Queen). I presume that this has not enabled Haldi and Curry Queen to reproduce BIR, to their complete satisfaction, at home?
My suggested (albeit ideal) approach would be as follow:
- Identify a number of BIRs where the proprietor is personally known to a cr0 member, where an excellent relationship is already established (like the cr0 member having been in the kitchen and cooked their own meals!) and where the cr0 member can personally vouch for the quality of the food (the taste and smell and appearance) because they are regular and satisfied customers there. There must be many such cr0 members that know of, and have established relationships with, such BIRs? This should be the starting point - for these members to propose potential BIRs that produce curries, with the required taste, smell and appearance, who are worthy of, and possibly receptive to, an approach
- A number of cr0 members should independently verify that the proposed BIRs do indeed produce curries with the required taste, smell and appearance. I accept that this may be geographically impractical. From what I've seen, I would trust Haldi, Curry King, Admin, Santa, George, Gary, Graeme, SmokenSpice, etc to determine whether or not a BIR actually achieves this. No offence to anyone I've forgotten to mention....I am sure there are many more of our members who are also quite capable of doing so.....but it HAS to be that taste of the 80s that many of us can relate to and recognise
- Clearly document our requirements, for out own benefit as well as the proposed BIRs. I think this should really be done before anyone makes anything other than a tentative "would you be at all interested" approach - least we go off cocked hat! I would not be interested if we did not do this
- The end point should CLEARLY be to reproduce decent BIR curries, with the right taste, smell and appearance, in a normal domestic kitchen. This simply HAS to be our aim. No disrespect to anyone who feels quite capable of documenting the process in the BIR and then scaling it down themselves (I'm pretty sure could have a fair crack at doing it too!) but it would be far more preferable to target those BIRs that understand and share our ultimate aim and are very willing to help us. I think we can phase payments to reflect these goals, for example, as follows:
- 20% upfront payment to cover costs (payable against compliance with broad intent)
- 40% payment for complete disclosure, witnessing, videoing, documenting the ingredients and entire cooking processes (curry base, precooked meats, a number of main dishes...start to finish...nothing whatsoever hidden) withing the BIR with normal volumes. I think it is paramount to have the head chef there....not a mid week relief chef. The quality can otherwise vary enormously! Results must be validated in full (ideally by a number of members) to secure this payment.
- 40% payment for replicating, witnessing, videoing, documenting the ingredients and entire cooking processes (curry base, precooked meats, a number of main dishes..start to finish) within the a domestic (ideally a cr0 member's) kitchen. This should be reproduced by the chef, firstly, and then the cr0 member. Results must be validated (ideally by a number of members) - Whoever overseas the project must be capable of doing so to ensure that our goals are met and our money isn't squandered
- Whoever documents the process must be capable of doing so. They must have an excellent eye for detail and procedures and be able to clearly and accurately document and communicate the results to us. Ideally, they should be a competent process, manufacturing, or quality engineer, or such like, I suggest
- We need to determine who has access to the final results. I, for one, would be reluctant to be one of a very small number of people who donates and then make the results available to the world. We should think about restricted access.
- Finally, yes there are obstacles to achieving our goals but they are there to be overcome. If we want something badly enough will will overcome any negativities and cynicism and scepticism....but it needs to be done right!
Sorry for the incomprehensible diatribe! ::)
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It's got to be done at home, otherwise what's the point?
But for a home demo with the "taste", yes, 50 pounds
A key challenge will be to get anyone to agree to payment by results and avoid a major dispute if you didn't want to pay. You'd be offering a lot of money - several hundred pounds. The end result MUST have the taste and be generally accepted as pretty damned good, otherwise the chef will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Even if there was a control sample, like I suggested before - cooked at the BIR, and we all said the home version tasted nowhere near as good, they might say it did and we were just making excuses to avoid paying, even if it was GBP50 or GBP100 for the demos and several more hundred pounds as a 'success fee'.
I like you thinking CA but we still need to address the issue that George brought up... If we don't get the correct result and the chef disagrees then we run into trouble. Especially if it is a BIR sharing a good relationship with cr0 members.
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...we still need to address the issue that George brought up... If we don't get the correct result and the chef disagrees then we run into trouble. Especially if it is a BIR sharing a good relationship with cr0 members.
I don't want to pour damp water on this whole idea but I really can see it turning sour unless we are almost OTT in terms of preparation, what's agreed, how far we can 'dig' into understanding exactly what the ingredients are (especially any pre-made blends), what the success criteria are, any split between a deposit and a 'success fee', etc.
But if it's set up like a legal contract with 'performance monitoring' then that will probably scare off any BIR who might otherwise be willing to play ball. So instead, and almost inevitably, it will be based on a relaxed approach, easy come, easy go, trust them, etc. And, unfortunately, my prediction is that it will lead to disappointment, no better than previous reported demos, books which didn't live up to great expectations, etc. Not bad, just mediocre and no great breakthrough.
Regards
George
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- We need to determine who has access to the final results. I, for one, would be reluctant to be one of a very small number of people who donates and then make the results available to the world. We should think about restricted access.
You know I sort of object to that point, but only because I have no intention of putting any money up. :)
Your point is actually very well made. I would expect perhaps a paying section of the forum, i.e. where you have to make a (small) payment to access the actual witnessed BIR recipes. I wouldn't object to that as long as it's a small payment, perhaps on a per recipe basis?
As to your other points CA I tend to agree but as ever we're getting mired down in detail before our feet are even off the blocks.
I might be able to be one of the "testers" though once you've found your ideal BIR, I'd be up for that.
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I only just thought of this, but it's sort of the obvious first step (or two).
1. Someone has to definitely get a restaurant to agree to the deal.
2. We have to get several people down(up) there to taste test as normal customers before proceeding further. There has to be agreement from about four or more forum members that this particular restaurant is the real deal as far as the taste and smell are concerned. I actually think this will be the real deal-killer, and finding a restaurant to participate will pale into insignificance in comparison.
Until those two tasks are accomplished there's no point in taking this any further.
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2. We have to get several people down(up) there to taste test as normal customers before proceeding further.
Well it would be a good excuse for a curry!
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but as ever we're getting mired down in detail before our feet are even off the blocks
Not really SS. I think it's best that we are clear about what we want before we go off cocked hat. My suggestion boils down to the following:
- Members identify and recommend potential (well known and regarded) restaurants
- Number of members verify the quality of their food (maybe impractical in which case another approach needs to be taken)
- Document what it is we want in a "contract" detailing our "requirements", "deliverables" and "terms and conditions of payment". This is detail that HAS to be done prior to commencing. It does not have to be long, elaborate and convoluted, just clear and precise
The rest of my suggestion is broad detail on what I think should be our approach and what should be in the document above.
Ultimately, what we need is someone with a positive attitude and drive that can actually make it happen. I am confident that I could do so, with one or two restaurant owners I know, but I'm not there, so I can't.
I'm sure any of us can allow perceived obstacles to deter us and allow the whole thing to become a damp squib.
Great that you're willing to be a "tester"! :D
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2. We have to get several people down(up) there to taste test as normal customers before proceeding further.
SS, your point has given me food for thought.
Shortly before receiving the demo in the BIR, we send an anonymous cr0 member in for a classic curry, e.g. Madras, to take away. The curry is then handed to the members attending the demo before they arrive.
We then ask for that type of curry (e.g. the Madras) to be produced during the demo.
The take away curry is reheated and compared against the demo curry. If they match, we agree that our demo has the BIR flavour, thank and pay the chef. If they do not, then both curries are there for the chef to taste, upon which he can explain to us why he has been wasting our time. I doubt a chef would argue that two different dishes taste the same, even under pressure.
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...he can explain to us why he has been wasting our time.
To play devil's advocate for a moment, the chef could use several excuses, e.g.
1. A sample that's frozen can't be compared to a freshly prepared dish. Some tastes and flavours develop as time goes by, whether the sample is frozen or not, even if it came from this BIR.
2. How do I know it came from this BIR?
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Good point George.
So instead of purchasing a curry, we choose a BIR that will sell undiluted curry gravy and send our anonymous cr0 member in 15 mintues before the demo team arrive to purchase a few other items and the curry gravy (the other items are to make it less obvious what we are up to). He then asks for receipt.
The anonymous cr0 member then grabs a seat and says he waiting for the demo team to arrive.
Upon telling the checkout assistant that we are part of the demo team, they will no doubt tell the chef. If the chef was going to try and cheat, I'm sure he would seriously consider changing his mind at that point.
Then we can compare the real curry gravy to that which the chef produces during his demo. The chef will not try to claim that half an hour or so is going to dramatically change the taste of the base sauce.
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I know who isn't interested in our BIR quest, Gordon bloody Ramsey. If you want authentic Indian food then why bother to go out and pay extortionate prices when you can cook it your self at home from one of the plethora of genuine authentic Indian recipes out there.