Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: lorrydoo on November 15, 2007, 05:28 PM
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I was thinking the other day about my local BIR and how much I would be willing to pay for their recipe for a Madras/vindaloo. It would have to be 100% guaranteed to recreate their recipe to the point that it would be indistinguishable from their own every time. I would also have to be able to make it in my own kitchen.
After pondering on this for a while, I would probably be willing to pay ?100.
What would you be willing to pay for your favourite dish from your favourite BIR using my wish list above?
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What would you be willing to pay for your favourite dish from your favourite BIR using my wish list above?
Good question! About GBP25 perhaps, if the recipe really worked!
I say GBP because if I type a pound sign it comes out as a question mark!
Regards
George
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I have been down this road
The problems I encountered were:-
The staff can't speak English very well, so you can't be understood
One chap thought I wanted to buy a vindaloo, when I actually wanted to be shown how to cook it
I did end up buying one (but it was very good)
They tell you how to make a "very nice curry" at home, but its "homestyle"
They don't want to be paid for this information, and are slightly insulted
Also ,and probably most important, noone except us lot ever attempt it
They don't use curry gravy at home and don't understand the problems you get
One of the best things I did was go to Bengal Cuisine in London
http://www.bengalcuisine.net/default1.php?id=4
It cost twenty five pounds for the lesson, but at least you were sure you were going to definitely be shown something
I've been let down loads of times because chef was too busy
But in answer to your question, I think it's easily worth 100 pounds for a full demo.
Learn how to make a full size curry gravy base
Learn how to precook meat, chicken and veg
Learn what spices are used and how to blend ginger/garlic (if used)
Learn to cook the final curry
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Some good points there Haldi but in my original question was hypothetical and the recipe you would be buying would have to tick every box on your personal wish list for a home made BIR. My one hundred pound offer would be a bargain if I could get exactly what I want.
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The money I spend on curry, I would be willing to pay more than 100.
As you say though you would need to guarantee a result that is consistant each time.
You never know a BIR chef may read this and begin to rub hands together and make an offer ;)
One thought, should we discover the answers we are looking for, what then, KFC secret herbs and spices recipe ;D just kidding
Onion
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You never know a BIR chef may read this and begin to rub hands together and make an offer
I expect the production company which makes Heston B's 'In Search of Perfection' series for BBC2 would have offered a lot more than GBP100 to a BIR which was prepared to explain how they make Chicken Tikka Masala. I assume they couldn't find anywhere, so they must have spent thousands and thousands of pounds transporting Heston B and an entire film crew out to India, instead!
Regards
George
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100? is ok not what I would call a compromising amount of cash for someone to give you the ?family jewels?
Lets say we got ten of use to each put in 100? i.e. 1000? now that is what I would call a decent sum of cash find a restaurant chef who is willing to play ball and then send one or two of the more on the compos mentis members off to get the secret!
I think anything less is quite frankly an insult !
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I'd be up for that SBF!
I think 1000 quid (grrrrrr! Stew, PLEASE can you fix the "?" problem! :() is cheap for genuine tried, tested, VERIFIED AND VALIDATED, reproducible BIR curry recipes e.g. a curry base recipe plus two main dishes...a madras (or vindaloo) and a korma (or chicken tikka masala).
Let's get 20 of us and offer 2000 quid! (grrrrr! STEW! ;))
Face it guys, many of us have been pursuing this "holy grail" for 10, 20, 30 and 40 years! It's got to be worth that much! ::)
PS: ......and I don't mean for recipes like those from "other" curry sites! ::)
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you cant do it, its in the fabric...
you need to buy the carpets and furniture.
shut up graeme :-) okay i hear you.
:-X
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Nothing that right Nothing I like the rest of you have been too many restaurants and had many takeaways and I can say mine are better; far better I wouldn't pay these jokers that are running the modern restaurants or takeaways a single penny. The last sit down Indian I had was three weeks ago in Beverley "it was crap".
Looking at some of the pictures on this forum I believe that most of us can cook better than these money grabbing jokers who are running around in their flash cars and buying up our property "I say feed their hunger for money no more" and stop buying the crap they are selling until they make a better effort like they did in the 70's and 80's there is no secret if there was why wasn't it passed down to these jokers that are selling it today?
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you cant do it, its in the fabric...
you need to buy the carpets and furniture.
shut up graeme :-) okay i hear you.
:-X
With respect Graeme, I was rather thinking of smelling and tasting their curries rather than their furniture ;)
...though, in some cases, I'm sure one might be hard pushed to tell the difference! lol ;D ;)
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what ive seen on this site starters wise is as good as a cir and a bir.what you will find is the way things are presented makes it that bit better.the little things in cooking the meals,like cooking at a high temp with ghee and using fresh things.The chef where i worked made his own garamasala this is very important,also in hot currys use chillies blend them in water to a paste then freeze in ice cube tray then use a cube or two in the meals do not use to much chilli powder as this can make a curry bitter/sour use a little peprika.
andy
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I am 99% with extrahotchillie on his point.
My last visit to a BIR was C*** and now the bottles
of Cobra are going for 4.50 each (nov 2007)
The prices they are now demanding is too much
for a very average (on or off) the high street BIR, often
we deserve better food and service,
if the toilets are dirty don't go back.
Last year I walked out of our local BIR.
I asked how much the Cobra was, I then asked the size
of the bottles he gave me a load of sarcasm in front of
other customers about it not being a social club ha ha !
my point being - thats 18.00 quid before we even order
our meal.
I got up and told my guests were leaving,
the manager was gobsmacked, and off we went.
This week i was informed the pub just 50 mts away
from the one i walk out off, has been bought by indians
(or what ever) they have "let go" all the local staff
and are turning the upstairs function room into a BIR.
Well said extrahotchillie.
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Hi guys,
I take your point that there are some poor quality and poor value BIRs around, but there are also many excellent ones aound too, I'm sure you'll agree?
I assumed the question (and certainly my offer of a contribution! :P) pre-supposes that we're able to reproduce those from the best of them (hence the "verification and validation") and not the worst of them! :P
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Hi CA and all curry monsters,
I have yet to find a good BIR that produces
quality food like the 1980 - to early 1990
with quality service. i often find the vindaloo
like a red soup.
I was going to talk about a main meal i cooked
but its going a little off topic again, sorry
about that.
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I agree 100% I don?t know what happened to all the decent restaurants I ate regularly in a place in shepherds Bush in the 80's it was a little hole in the wall type joint what I would call a "proper curry house" having recently moved back to London I thought I would pop in .the food was dire the place looks like an operating theatre laminate flooring and everything white,,, walls table's bring back the 80's !
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All sounds rather depressing guys! :o
Even in the 80s I had great difficulty finding a decent curry in several areas. Bedford (Cranfield area) and Huntingdon spring to mind. I had my worst ever curry (overseas excepted....but maybe not!) in Sheffield at that time....it was dire!
But I've had curries to die for (the ones my "share" eludes to :P) in many other areas of England, then, and since then.
I think we need a "Recommended BIR" section Stew?. I know of several which I would recommend without hesitation. 8)
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Hi CA and Slim :-) and all curry monsters.
Yes bad ones then, sure :-(
But at least you could find your hidden gem :-)
I go to a bir 1-2 times every 3 years or so.
If kids eat Kebab Meat and poor quality pizzas on a Saturday
night i am sure they will enjoy the BIR slop shop, so the BIR
is going to be around a long time,
along with the munchies group etc
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I think if there is a enough of us who would be willing to stump up 100 quid each then that would be a good start to finally put our quest to rest.
The next step would be to "advertise" our venture and if any BIR chefs bite then someone like Admin and/or Cory Ander would be needed to see if we were buying into the right genuine high quality BIR recipe we are looking for.
The simplest way I can think of doing this is to actually try before we buy. But we might end up kissing a lot of frogs before we meet our prince, so to speak.
I would definitely put up 100 GBP and I think Cory and SBF have also indicated they probably would. Anyone else?
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I think 1000 quid...is cheap for genuine tried, tested, VERIFIED AND VALIDATED, reproducible BIR curry recipes
You know what the real problem is? Well let me tell you :)
I've been doing the rounds of several restaurants in various places over the past few weeks. There are two reasons why I did this, the first is because the "other" place has many members who are ecstatic over the authenticity (BIR wise) of the curry recipes there, the second is because I can't find a curry house that makes curries with the smell and taste I remember any more.
Now these two things sort of mesh. The "other" place makes curries which are like some restaurants I have been to, but the point is that these are what I would consider second rate BIRs. I wouldn't revisit these BIRs if there were ones which still made curries like I remember them. The really devastating point for me is that there were no restaurants that had the smell or the taste. Seriously, none.
A point in case would be the Bhuna. Now this used to have a very distinct savoury flavour. If you've never had it you wouldn't know what I mean, but it is a unique flavour which you wouldn't forget if you had had it. Every recipe and restaurant version now seems to assume that if you put onions and peppers in a standard curry then that's a bhuna. No, uh uh, no way. People have forgotten how to bhuna and it doesn't seem that my cravings will be satisfied anytime soon.
So when people now say that they can reproduce their local BIR flavour or better it, I believe them. But, you poor deprived people, you have to know that there was a time when there really was a "smell" and "taste" that went with every restaurant or takeaway curry that totally shadows any forum recipes or real restaurant recipes, but it appears to have disappeared!
So how much would I pay for the BIR secret...absolutely nothing, zilch, zero...unless I can find just one restaurant that can make curries like they used to be made.
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you cant do it, its in the fabric...
you need to buy the carpets and furniture.
Yes I'd have to say that we're (or at least I am) not talking about the smell of the restaurant. It's the smell of the curry itself. In the old days there was no mistaking it but now, well it seems to have disappeared. RIP "taste" and "smell".
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The chef where i worked made his own garamasala this is very important...
And yet the restaurant where I was given a tour of the kitchen had no garam masala whether of the bought kind or the home made kind. Strange.
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santa, it maybe that the garama masala was in the base sauce?you'r all looking for the secret ingredient,its the basic one's made right that is needed.how many of you use garam masala?
all the best,andy :D
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Hi,
Andy asked "how many of you use garam masala?"
If the book says plonk it in i will.
Have we forget a garam masala can be
whole spices too and not the powder we all
have come to know.
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how many of you use garam masala?
Hi chilli head
I've only come across one chef who used garam masala
He added just a pinch onto the curry, when it was in the takeaway carton.
It was packet stuff as well
East End or Natco
All the other chefs I've known add a pinch of coriander/cummin mix instead
This talk of paying to learn properly is very interesting
If you could be sure to learn how to do it all
Curry gravy,precook methods,spice mix and finished curry
Then I guess I would be interested, but I have seen loads already, and still can't do as well as they do.
I think this needs to be demoed at someone's home, because something doesn't reproduce.
Ages ago, when I first started calling at takeaways, and asking for recipes,
I was told that you could never get the "masala" right
(he meant the gravy)
I think that this is still my problem
Is there anyone out there who actually believes they can get a consistant & perfect result?
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Hi Haldi, I think if enough people on here come forward and agree to be part of the project, then that would be a good starting point. You never know, if enough people get on board it just might work. At the end of the day, money talks.
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At the end of the day, money talks.
Well at the moment, I think only four of us have expressed interest
Perhaps 100 pounds is too much
How many would pay 50 pounds?
I would, who else?
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Hi Team,
I will put in 50 GBP in as well so, this would be very interesting.
Stew
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I would willingly pay 50 or 100, having said that, Parker21's thread on the Rajver base is damn close.
Anyway you can count me in.
Onion
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Haldi, if this BIR (Bombay Style) has the taste, then this is the type of place we would need approached with an offer they cant refuse for guaranteed BIR curries at home.
I could approach them but I would need to know how much cash we have raised and if they could demo at home
If we have a demo at the takeaway then I feel we won't be able to do it on domestic equipment.
I think we have 150 pounds so far
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Haldi,
Also as part of the deal, it will need to be digitally video recorded so we can post up the video on the site in little chunks.
Can you throw that in as part of the deal?
I will come with the video camera.
So how much have we got then? 150 GBP, a couple more and 250 GBP would probably swing it.
Stew
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Hey guys!
All valid points, but I think we need to know a whole lot more (as would they) before we can finalise anything.
I reckon tentative approaches to solicit interest are fine at this stage. But before we finalise anything, I suggest we agree what it is we want, what the terms and conditions of payment are, and specify them in a document accordingly.
I'm happy to produce a document, for people to consider, once we've solicited more points of views on our needs. Oh, and more interest in doing it of course!
Haldi, there is still nothing to stop you from asking them if they would be interested and, if so, how much they would expect as payment (let them tell us! They might say 50 quid!) and what they would be willing to give in return. Cooked at home is essential for sure!
To my mind it is paramount that any recipes and methods simply HAVE TO produce a curry (or curries) with the TASTE, SMELL and APPEARANCE that those of us who have been around long enough have come to know and love. This would have to be REPEATABLE (verifiably) BY A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
I've just finished my left-over prawn madras and, frankly, it's far better than a whole heap of takeways and restaurants I could care to mention. It has the taste and the smell (pronounced) of a typical BIR curry, but it's not up there with the best of them.....which is where I want to be.
They HAVE to be up there with the very best!
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Maybe I can't count, but I think the following summarises the expressions of interest so far:
LorryDo - 100 quid
Haldi - ?
Onion - > 100 quid
George - 25 quid
Cory - 100 quid
SlimBoyFat - 100 quid
Stew (admin) - 50 quid
If we all compromised and chucked in 50 quid each, that would potentially make 350 quid so far. Please correct me if I'm wrong :P
Surely more people are willing to part with 50 quid to realise their dream of replicating BIR curries at home? :-\
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Im just on my break and agree entirely with Cory Ander, we need to stick to the original wish list I put together to start this thread. 50 pounds would probably atract more people, and to do this we might need a new thread to see who would be willing to join if we can get what we want.
I say lets go for it but be guided by the voice of reason that is Cory Ander.
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I fear my offer of GBP25 looks a bit mean but, even that is too much, if the end result is only as mediocre as previous demos, by most accounts. Yet, if it produces a mediocre result and has been recorded on video, I doubt if the chef would waive the fee. The aim must be to produce a near-identical sample of a selected dish to that produced at the restaurant. e.g. if you go for chicken madras at a known BIR with high standards.
1. Prepare a takeaway portion of chicken madras at the restaurant. Watch and take notes. Taste end result. Is it up to their normal high standard? Is this what we're after? If so, proceed...
2. Travel to someone's house with the remaining 90% of the takeaway portion and get the chef to prepare the same dish again, on a domestic oven. Check that all the same ingredients are used and there's no monkey business. The only difference should be a lower flame. Taste end result. Compare and contrast with sample prepared at BIR. If they are the same - BINGO. If not, with a significant margin of difference, should we still pay the GBP250?
Further issues: e.g. if they add 1 tbls of something like a white paste. You might ask 'what's that?' They could say it's simply coconut flour mixed with a bit of water, failing to mention various other things added too. This could be a can of worms.
Another potential problem is that a few of us will be paying to effectively give away the findings to the rest of the world. It might be inevitable but is it fair, especially if you've paid nearer GBP100 than GBP25?
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Agree with George on this one, as much as I would love to have another kitchen demo I really wouldn't want to pay 100 quid for it. If the result could be guaranteed then I would gladly pay it but it's not realistically going to happen. As far as the chef is concerned they show you the gravy and final curry its job done. Most I have spoken to will tell you it can't be done at home so if they say otherwise it's probably just for the money.
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I think we might hit a problem, with getting it right at home
After all, these chefs would never have used curry gravy in a home curry
It would be their first time
CK and I both had home demos
I was shown a curry gravy and chicken vindaloo
That was about three years back, I think
It didn't taste right
I can see a few problems if we aren't exact in what we ask for too
If we shell out cash, and don't get what we want, I think we might have a major bust up
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I think it would be far better to do it in the restaurant exactly the way they would do it normally. You would need to see every packet of spice to be sure there was no funny business (well you never know do you?). If this means that in the first instance that we have to cook in restaurant quantities, for the base anyhow, then so be it. I'm 100% sure I could subsequently knock the base sauce down to managable portions without compromising anything.
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Agreed Secret Santa, we would probably need a full scale demonstration and then reduce it ourselves. But there are so many pit falls, i.e. what I think is my dream BIR curry might be total rubbish to someone else, that said though, there does seem to be a consensus where the smell and taste are concerned. The main thing is that people are actually interested which might just spur someone on to take it to the next level and start organising it.
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I would be Willing to Throw in ?50 ,But what happens if the chef cooks the meal and its crap ,but he still wants the money ,could cause a bit of bother
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We know that Bengal Cuisine, London still does demos for a price
Perhaps they would be open to an offer for the full sized base
I could try to sort that out
I don't know how a camcorder would go down though
I'm not totally sure if all the staff are legal immigrants
So there would probably be an amount of suspicion
Many can only speak very limited English, so they haven't been here long
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I think it would be far better to do it in the restaurant exactly the way they would do it normally. You would need to see every packet of spice to be sure there was no funny business (well you never know do you?). If this means that in the first instance that we have to cook in restaurant quantities, for the base anyhow, then so be it. I'm 100% sure I could subsequently knock the base sauce down to managable portions without compromising anything.
I agree very much with your comments here. Any home demo would have to be a bonus. The starting point must be simple obervation and fact finding on their normal approach - day in, day out, in their BIR kitchen. Every single ingredient would need to be checked, especially any blends put together in advance. But they might see us as acting like forensic scientists, so would they be prepared to go along with such 'due diligence'?
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What would be ideal would be if someone approached us with a perfect BIR recipe that is written down and guaranteed to meet all our needs. I mean, does every new BIR that opens (the good ones) go off and get demmos before they can operate successfully? Information must to some extent be written down because my local BIR is now completely run by the descendents of the original owners, these guys took over, over night quite literally and there has been no change to the curries. Just a thought.
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Dont forget, there is a vast industry that depends on recipes that are written down, just look at the countless cookery books. And does every good recipe depend on a personal demmo from its creator?
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...But there are so many pit falls, i.e. what I think is my dream BIR curry might be total rubbish to someone else.
Precisely my thought lorrydoo. So presumably four members or so would have to taste the curries from the restaurant or takeaway before taking the plunge and handing out readies for the curry secret?
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It has the taste and the smell (pronounced) of a typical BIR curry, but it's not up there with the best of them...
Is this a recipe you've posted Cory Ander? I can safely say I have never reproduced the curry smell as I remember it and I've made a lot of curries using a lot of techniques. Are you getting this only with this particular curry or with every curry you make?
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Lol, my local BIR is about as exiting as Nigela Lawson with a breast reduction, so on that note I wouldn't be willing to spend any money whatsoever. Also, having tried their curry, I could replicate it at home with ease. Cheap chicken, tin of no frills plum tomatoes and a couple of spoonfulls of Pataks curry paste. Job done. Someone also needs to tell them that food coluring and cumin seed does NOT make it Pilau Rice.
I was in there, and as you do, started chatting with boy about making currys. I went through my recipe with him, with a standard base sauce etc, and he's laughing away to himself. "Hahaha you can do it a lot quicker than that mate!"
I began to wonder, was I going about it a really long winded way? Was there an easier way to make a really tasty BIR style curry? The short answer is no. I'm tempted to this day to call them up and say "You remeber you told me there's a quicker way to make a curry? Yeah, well that's because your curry is *!@#". I'm going go in there and drop off the URL for here and maybe they can learn something.
On that note, if anyone knows of any really good take outs or restaurants in Edinburgh, please, please give me a shout.
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...does every good recipe depend on a personal demmo from its creator?
I firmaly believe that 95% of a successful finished dish can be encapsulated in a good written recipe. Anyone who knows about the fundamentals of cooking can follow a recipe, like musicians can read music. Therefore if a recipe does not work it's probably the case that the recipe is useless.
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George, I think you have said is spot on. And if we actually bought a recipe, this would save having to arrange a demmo, which I am sure might put off some potential chefs. We would still need to try before we buy and be 100% satisfied.
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Surely more people are willing to part with 50 quid to realise their dream of replicating BIR curries at home? :-\
I'd be willing for ?50, assuming there was a limited number of people (maybe a dozen max) and it was a reasonable length of time in order to prepare a base, meat and final curry. In other words a few hours if not a whole day.
I'd have thought that the media would be interested. After all there are countless rubbish cookery programs on TV, surely 'how to cook an authentic curry' is something new?
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Well Fumble, thats another 50 quid we can add to our kitty. I think its time to start a new thread to see how many people are willing to come forward and make a pledge to our quest. If that is a success, then advice from the higher ups will need to be sought to steer it to the next level.
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I firmly believe that 95% of a successful finished dish can be encapsulated in a good written recipe. Anyone who knows about the fundamentals of cooking can follow a recipe, like musicians can read music. Therefore if a recipe does not work it's probably the case that the recipe is useless.
In theory this should be correct but the problem i have come across with the vast majority of recipes (from reputable chefs as well as randoms) is that they are not detailed enough. Almost the only recipes i have found that i trust to tell me exactly what i need to know are those from heston blumenthal (and those are extremely complex). It annoys me as i'm sure it does you, that others cant explain things in as much detail and tell you WHY rather than HOW.
With complex dishes such as BIR there is so small a margin for error that instructions such as "fry the garlic, stirring, then add ginger. Cook for 2 mins" just isnt enough. It is open to so much speculation as has previously been mentioned on this site.
IMO videos are the best way to learn. Again, only a good video, most of the ones on TV are too stylish and have too many cuts/angle changes. A video with accompanying commentary detailing amounts would be brilliant. The swansea video on here and channel 4's take on the takeaway were pretty useful for the curry technique.
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In theory this should be correct but the problem i have come across with the vast majority of recipes (from reputable chefs as well as randoms) is that they are not detailed enough.
Chinois
I agree with you but I covered this by saying that if the recipe doesn't work it's useless. Well, 'useless' is a bit too strong a word, perhaps, but IMHO a recipe needs as much detail as required to allow a layperson to interpret it. Recipes can be tested on people to see if they work in practice. I find that Delia Smith's recipes tend to produce good results.
I'm impressed if you've got very far with any of Heston B's recipes. They are so incredibly complex and long-winded. Which dishes have you tried and how did they come out?
Regards
George
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I agree with you but I covered this by saying that if the recipe doesn't work it's useless. Well, 'useless' is a bit too strong a word, perhaps, but IMHO a recipe needs as much detail as required to allow a layperson to interpret it. Recipes can be tested on people to see if they work in practice. I find that Delia Smith's recipes tend to produce good results.
I'm impressed if you've got very far with any of Heston B's recipes. They are so incredibly complex and long-winded. Which dishes have you tried and how did they come out?
Glad you mentioned delia. I put her in my post but took it out as i felt i was waffling a bit! Her 'how to cook' books should be pretty much necessary reading for keen cooks. Elizabeth david is good too but i've only got one of hers.
I've found i use heston's books more as a learning tool than as recipes bcos as you say they are so time-consuming (and you need expensive ingredients & equipment). I use his tips for separate components of dishes and to learn about cooking methods. I've used tips in curry cooking, bolognese, chinese and all sorts really. He encourages you to use common sense in questioning every aspect of a dish.
I have done his bacon & egg ice cream, mashed potato and margarita pizza recipes. With the pizza i skipped the pre-ferment stage to save 12 hours and it was amazing, equal to the best one i've eaten.