Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Hints, Tips, Methods and so on.. => Cooking Equipment => Topic started by: haldi on October 24, 2007, 09:00 AM
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Ok, I know I am a bit obsessive about curry and "the taste"
I thought, if I don't do something fairly extreme, then I will never get what I want.
So I bought a second hand indian restaurant hob.
I got it converted to propane and the burners are really really hot
I can't work out the "btu" output but it seems to be a problem to not burn things
I imagined that getting the perfect curry would be really straight forward now.
After all, I've seen the base made and loads of curries cooked too.
What can I say?
It just hasn't made that much of a difference
Everything is too spiced and thick
In fact I think the old "at home recipes" are no longer suitable
I'm seeing a few chefs for some advice
Something is wrong somewhere
Maybe it's the spice mix
Who would have thought this was so hard to do?
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;D ;D ;D ;D
I take my (chefs?) hat off to you Haldi! You're a legend! Pukka tandoor....pukka cooker......you just need the restaurant walls, soft Indain music (if there is such a thing :P) and someone to peel, chop and wash and wipe up now.....and you're sorted! 8) ;D 8) ;D
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Ultimate respect to you Haldi ;),
You have been with us since the beginning and you have a true passion for this. Now i can not wait to find out what you learn from the Chefs about the cooking process.
Are you saying the base is to thick to start with or that the end result is that it thickens up?
Stew 8)
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It's a totally new ball game
Everything in the pan evaporates really quickly
The spices,tomato puree and the base
It's very hard to know when to stop adding the base
I usually add it when the curry is drying up
The curry easily ends up with far too strong a flavour
I think the base needs to be very underspiced for it to work
I am taking a sample of my base and a vindaloo sauce to a chef today.
I hope he can put me straight
I don't think my old recipes will work
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Hi Haldi, if you've now got a pro cooker you need to adjust your base to suit. I suggest you double the amount of water in whatever base sauce recipe you are using, that way it doesn't evaporate a soon as it hits the pan and you can leave it on full heat bubbling away until it gets to the consitency you require - just like the restaurants do.
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I agree...even with my 3-ring gas burner (narf :P) I find that I have to use much runnier everything (i.e. curry base, garlic puree, ginger puree and tomato puree) to control things adequately and not burn the crap out of it :P
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I think it might even be appropriate to make a spice paste up too instead of using dry spices. It always amazes me when I read some recipes that suggest adding dry powdered spices to unadulterated oil that's near its smoking point. The damn spices are going to burn virtually the instant they hit the pan, you don't need a degree in physics to know that. There's only three ways to prevent burnt spices (and even then you have to be careful):
1) make them into a paste as suggested
2) add them to oil which is at a low temperature
3) add them after some fluid has already been added to the pan (this can be in many forms, e.g. onion, garlic/ginger puree, masala paste etc.)
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Damn it! I forgot to mention that! I happen to agree with that again! (damn it! :P).....I invariably make a mix of powdered spices up in water to avoid burning them....even on a domestic cooker.... ;D
So much for my degree in Physics then! ::)
....though BIRs don't do so of course :P
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Haldi, you are seriously unhinged.... brilliant :)
Some BIRs I've seen don't appear to use spice powder directly. I believe these spices are in a batch of red sauce/paste that they add during cooking of the final dish - any maybe only used for some dishes.
I'm going to try making a final BIR with no ground spices at all and see how this works out.
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I'm going to try making a final BIR with no ground spices at all and see how this works out.
I know that some BIRs use masala pastes but I can't imagine them using no dried spices or there wouldn't be much variation in the curries.
There are some places that definitely use a red masala that not surpriisingly goes into masala curries, and some use a white/yellow paste for the kormas and pasandas and such, but I doubt that there are any that use only pastes. Or are there?
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Tut, tut, tut Santa! I removed your previous post of course.... ;D
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hi haldi
1)heat pan
2)add oil heat add garlic (if using) then remove pan
3)add tom paste then powdered spices
4)return to heat and then quickly add ladle of base this must be runny once boiling or bubbling add more sauce . the work is done really once you have released the oils from the spices then it should be down to getting the finished consistency right. see my Rajver vindaloo sauce posting he had put all of the sauce in the pan within the first minute this also included the methi and some of the coriander.what size frying pan do you use and what is it made of? this can make all the difference.remember because the bubbles move in from the outside because the output of the flames are so intense if you know what i mean.
regards
gary
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Hi Haldi,
as a matter of interest, how much did the hob cost you :P:P
as far as burning the spices are concerned - since I have upped the cooking temperature, even on my poxy domestic hob, i've found it's too damb easy to burn the spices, the spice mix I use atm is the bruce edwards mix and I've burnt quite a lot latelly in trying to master the new technique, so I made a paste by cooking a batch in oil as you do, Ive found it stops the burning problem and gives off a much more noticable aroma.
Wonder if BIR's use ready cooked pastes? according to patak's they do - but they would say that wouldn't they :P
Kev
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Thanks everyone for all the advice
The cooker cost ?140
But then I had to get it converted to propane
I am on holiday at the moment and managed to get into the kitchens of one of my takeaway friends.
His cooker had identical gas rings, but I think I may have a problem
His flames rise maybe 6 inches up from his gas rings and are yellow
Although I am getting very strong heat, my flames are only about two inches high and blue
I can't turn the heat up anymore
Anyone understand this?
I watched the chef prepare a vindaloo (I've got other info that I will post later)
There has been debate over this flaming of the curry
Does it effects the flavour?
Well definitely yes
Although this curry demo didn't have the whole pan on fire, it did contantly have little spits of oil at the side of the pan, rising/ignighting/then falling back into the pan.
It gives a very BIR aroma
Important to note, is that the curry is effectively cooked from beneath and the sides of the pan.
I've just bought another pan from an Asian supermarket
It's only 8 inches wide and made of aluminium (I think)
It looks very like the pans I have seen used
It will also help with getting flames up the side of the pan
All the chefs pans are smashed on the rim where they strike with the spoon
That must be a soft metal to do that
Aluminium is soft isn't it?
Will post some more later
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His flames rise maybe 6 inches up from his gas rings and are yellow
Although I am getting very strong heat, my flames are only about two inches high and blue
I can't turn the heat up anymore
Anyone understand this?
Yellow flames are quite worrying if he's on mains gas. The flames should be blue as you say. Yellow flames are an indication of incomplete burning of the gas and can produce carbon monoxide.
Your flame height is a function of the amount of gas getting to the burner and this is controlled by the regulator which will have been changed when your cooker was converted to propane. I'd get back to the people who modified it for you and see what they say, it'll probably just need an adjustment of the regulator.
Your pan is almost certainly aluminium and as far as I can tell that's what most of the BIRs seem to use too.
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if you take another look at the swansea BIR video - the flames are exactly as haldi describes - although I do agree with santa that the flame should be blue - yellow is (usually) not good mmmm interesting one this :-\
Kev.
p/s - anyone tried once of these (7kw) - http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Cooking-products/hot-wok-GB.asp
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take another look at the swansea BIR video - the flames are exactly as haldi describes
You're right they are...sort of. What's actually happening is that the flames are catching the oil that's being sprayed from the curry he's cooking and that burns yellow. Otherwise the flames are a safe looking blue.
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p/s - anyone tried once of these (7kw) - http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Cooking-products/hot-wok-GB.asp
I think there was some sort of debate over the heat power with these
I got the impression they weren't hot enough for BIR cooking
I talked at length with the chef about cooking the curries and his base sauce
This place make superb curries so I really wanted to know anything he would tell.
His curry base is totally vegetarian
I see absolutely no reason to not reproduce his base at home using a domestic cooker
The ratio of oil to onions is a little alarming
I was shown the oil skimmed off the curry base before it is blended
To four parts of base there was one part of oil in volume
This spiced oil is then kept in the fridge until it is required for cooking the curries
The blended curry base is fridged too
The base is thick and needs watering by it's own volume again for curry cooking
Ingredients to make (what I estimate at about) 15 lires of thick undiluted gravy
one large sack of onions (10 kg I think)
one and half litres ktc veg oil
two chef spoons salt
two and a half chef spoon hot spice mix
one chef spoon turmeric
one 400 gramme can of tomatoes
one 400 gramme can of chick peas
two bulbs of garlic
enough water to come close to the top of the pan
Simply boil the lot for three hours
Cool a little and scoop off the oil
Blend the rest
Fridge both when cold enough
Dilute the thick curry gravy with the same proportion of water
This will also need a boil to bring back the flavour
I was so surprised at the relatively little tomatoes in the mix
No coriander leaves or tomato puree either
And there is proportionately little spice in it
The base can't be hot (it's used for mild curries too)
That's not to say that other places don't use them, but this place doesn't bother
And I really love their cooking
The chef (who I am really gratefull to) said some places make their base using the boiled chicken water
It gives more flavour, but we've already discussed that one, and a lot of people got upset.
He never does this, because many people are vegetarian
He also said that some chefs make the curry gravy without water
They just use oil
That has got to be very very greasy
I don't like thinking about that one
I am sure a scaled down version of his curry gravy could be made
There is no extra requirement for heat
But I am sure the cooking of the final curry needs more heat
How much more I don't know, but he cooks with the flames licking the frying pan handle
That's how tasty his curries are
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So I bought a second hand indian restaurant hob.
Brilliant idea. I hope you learn how to 'harness' it before too long because I'm sure it must be a move in the right direction.
What next? Has anyone with deep pockets thought of buying any entire BIR business which might be for sale?
I guess natural gas and propane burn at different temperatures and may have different coloured flames. Perhaps propane is hotter. I must do a search on Google.
Regards
George
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Hi Brum,
The indoor HotWok is a bit weedy and is not really any different to the larger burners on a domestic gas hob (i.e 3.7 kW or 13MJ/h or 12600 BTU/h ). Useful for those that otherwise don't have gas perhaps?
The wok burner on my barbecue is 5kW (or 18MJ/h or 17000 BTU/h). It's pretty satisfactory for cooking curries, with a 32 inch wok, I feel.
The outdoor HotWok (shown in your link) is pretty respectable at 7kW (or 25MJ/h or 24000 BTU/h). I think this would probably be satisfactory.
My 3 ring burner (shown here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037))is 9kW (or 32MJ/h or 30000 BTU/h). This is ample for burning the crap out of everything and getting flames licking up the sides of a 32 inch wok...Ahem! I mean for keeping the temperature stable of course :P)
A similar four ring burner is 14kW (or 50MJ/h or 47000 BTU/h)
I think it's less about how hot things can get (things will only get as hot as the oil, maximum, after all....i.e. about 200C - 240C) and more about the capacity to maintain a uniform (and sufficiently hot) temperature, across the whole pan, when adding ingredients. I think that a wide flame is desirable to heat the sides of the pan....(and to ignite things, from time-to-time, of course! ;D)
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Hi Haldi,
Yellow flames indicate that there is too much gas and too little air for efficient combustion (hence the carbon monoxide that Santa mentions). If the flames are blue but too pale, there is too little gas and too much air. The flames should be blue with yellow tips. There should be a "mixture" screw somewhere that you can play with? Yellow flames are cooler than blue flames (where complete combustion is occurring).
I can get yellow flames (your so called "lazy flames") by turning down the supply of air to my 3 ring burner (check the gold control rings: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037)).
This quote of Wikipedia may be helpful. Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) is a gas mixture that is primarily propane or primarily butane:
"LPG has a higher calorific value (94 MJ/m? equivalent to 26.1kWh/m?) than natural gas (methane) (38 MJ/m? equivalent to 10.6kWh/m?), which means that LPG can not simply be substituted for natural gas. In order to allow the use of the same burner controls and to provide for similar combustion characteristics, LPG can be mixed with air to produce a synthetic natural gas (SNG) that can be easily substituted. LPG/air mixing ratios average 60/40, though this is widely variable based on the gases making up the LPG. The method for determining the mixing ratios is by calculating the Wobbe index of the mix. Gases having the same Wobbe index are held to be interchangeable"
As Santa says, perhaps you need to fiddle (being qualified to fiddle of course! :P) with the gas pressure and air regulator.
My gas appliances state that the gas pressure must be regulated to 1.0kPa for natural gas and 2.75kPa for LPG. As far as I can tell, they then have the more or less the same power consumptions (LPG being marginally less).
Hope this helps! But I doubt it! :P
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Yellow flames indicate that there is too much gas and too little air for efficient combustion There should be a "mixture" screw somewhere that you can play with? Yellow flames are cooler than blue flames (where complete combustion is occurring).
(check the gold control rings: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.msg16037#msg16037)).
Thanks, I will take a closer look
Continuing the chat I had with the chef:-
He proceeded to make a veg vindaloo with extra sauce
The following recipe demonstrates why it's do important to have a perfect curry gravy
Some recipes are little more than heated curry gravy
Chef took a can of spiced oil from the fridge
The oil becomes thick when cold and looks most "un oil" like
He took two desertspoons of this and heated it in a pan for about two minutes
The gas flames were running up the side of the pan
He then added three desertspoons of tomato puree and stirred this round the pan for a minute
The tomato puree is straight from a can
Not diluted and made by "white tower"
Chef then put in two ladles of curry gravy and boiled it for about three minutes
All the time, little spits of oil were igniting at the side of the pan
This was giving an amazing BIR aroma
You would recognise it
Chef turned down the flame and added a teaspoon more of tomato puree and maybe half a ladle of curry gravy
He cooked on this lower heat for a couple of minutes then the sauce was finished
He put half of this into a foil container with a cardboard lid
This was the finished extra vindaloo sauce
So with half the sauce still left in the pan, he added half a teaspoon of salt
Some "thawed out" frozen mixed veg
Two small pieces of pre cooked potato (pre cooked in water,turmeric and salt)
A desertspoon of canned mushrooms from a fridge
Chef stirred this all round for a minute then added another ladle of curry gravy and half a desertspoon of hot spice mix
He cooked on for five minutes then added a tiny pinch of ground coriander and a tiny pinch of ground cummin
Chef scraped this delicious vindaloo into a plastic carton and carefully snapped the lid on.
It was brilliant that he took so much time and effort to help me with my curry cooking hobby.
Just because I know how to do it won't stop me buying from him
You can't always be bothered to spend hours cooking, can you?
And there is no way I would want to do this as a business
But seriously, having watched this very closely, I think you need big flames and heat to get the BIR flavour
This new cooker of mine will get me what I have strived, for twenty odd years, to achieve
I compared some of his vindaloo sauce with some made with my new cooker.
Apart from a very slight "dried fenugreek taste" it was the same
That brings me to another point
If you cook your curries, then you don't enjoy them as much
I had tried my sauce after I first made it
I thought it was really un satisfactory, when it was really ok
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This was the finished extra vindaloo sauce
So was this a vindaloo strength curry base then Haldi? Because, if I understand you correctly, he made it into extra vindaloo sauce by adding nothing other than tomato paste and reclaimed oil?
I do agree that the curry base is critical to a good BIR curry.
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Hi
Remember that propane burns hotter than butane. But if your not getting total combustion be carefull!
Regards
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This is the most interesting post for a while and really indicates that the base with a combination of intense heat to cook, correct spicing and cooking technique could be the key here.
Are you going to make this base sauce Haldi?
Stew
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So was this a vindaloo strength curry base then Haldi? Because, if I understand you correctly, he made it into extra vindaloo sauce by adding nothing other than tomato paste and reclaimed oil?
I do agree that the curry base is critical to a good BIR curry.
Yes, you are right
Vindaloo round here, is a medium curry, not hot
So the base is suitable for that or things such as a korma
For the sauce he added no extra spice
But for the curry he added hot spice mix (bassar) and just a pinch of cummin and coriander
Hi Stu
Yes, I will make the base, but I'm going to try to scale it down.
I don't know how, but my freezer is always piled high with frozen curries, curry gravies, rice & tandoori chicken.
When I come home from shopping I can't fit anything in it!!
It drives my wife mad.
So if I made fifteen litres of curry gravy, I think we might fall out
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Hi Haldi,
My other half is a gas technician and says that if the restaurants flames on the gas ring were yellow it means that the gas ring would need cleaning and was blocked, hence its burning neat gas and there is no air mixture. CQ
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Good point CQ! Start with the obvious and make sure everthing is unblocked! 8)
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Vindaloo round here, is a medium curry, not hot
:o What IS the world coming to Haldi! :o
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Hi Haldi,
My other half is a gas technician and says that if the restaurants flames on the gas ring were yellow it means that the gas ring would need cleaning and was blocked, hence its burning neat gas and there is no air mixture. CQ
Thank you CQ
I believe you use a large cooker, is that gas?
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Yes I do have a large gas Smeg cooker, ordinary rings on it but also has a larger ring for chinese cooking and another long one for a fish kettle for a large cast iron griddle to go on. I get quite a high heat on my large ring. CQ
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Haldi, have you scaled down to a 10 or 15 onion version of this base ? Could you ?
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Haldi, have you scaled down to a 10 or 15 onion version of this base ? Could you ?
Hi Jeera
I've run out of spare cooking time at the moment, so I may not get a chance to try a scaled down recipe for a couple of weeks.
But I believe that ten onions are about a third of a 10 kg bag of onions
So simply divide the recipe by three
This is what I think it should be
Recipe moved to the recipe section here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2093.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2093.0)
Guys, please post recipes in the recipes section and not half way through another thread. This is so other people can actually find them! Thankyou.