Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Cory Ander on May 22, 2007, 05:36 AM
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Step 1:
Get yourself a decent, well seasoned, cast-iron or mild-steel (i.e. "carbon-steel") wok/karahi. I use a fairly heavy cast-iron wok (see photo 1).
Step 2:
Get yourself a decent gas burner and connect it to a bottled LPG gas supply (photo 3). A domestic gas hob typically consumes about 12 MJ/h of gas. You really need a consumption of at least 18 MJ/h (such as a barbecue wok burner).
The burner I use is 32 MJ/h (when the gas pressure is lawfully "regulated"). Mine is "unregulated" but controlled (oops! - see photo 2 :P). Restaurant burners are typically 100 MJ/h and above (gosh! :o)
Photo 4 shows my burner ready for action! :P
Step 3:
Heat your wok until whisps of smoke appear. Add your oil (lots of it!) and heat until it just begins to smoke.
Step 4:
Add your onions (if using) and fry until just browning. Shake and stir continuously (the wok and its contents, I mean, not yourself! :P)
Step 5:
Add other finely chopped veggies (if using). Shake and stir.
Step 6:
Add garlic and ginger (if using) in quick succession. Shake and stir until garlic is just beginning to brown.
Step 7:
Add tomato paste and shake and stir
Step 8:
Add salt and spices (I make a runny paste of them out of water. This prevents everything from burning! - see photo 5)
Note: Steps 4 to 8 should take no more than a minute or two in total!
Step 9:
Add precooked meat (I'm making prawn curries here so I add the prawns at the end). Shake and stir vigorously (the wok......never mind :P).
Step 10:
Add curry base, a ladle at a time.....stir vigourously....and stand back! :o (see photos 6, 7 and 8 ;D)
NOTE: THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS!! I ADVISE AGAINST DOING IT INSIDE OR ANYWHERE WHERE CHILDREN ARE PRESENT! MIND YOUR EYEBROWS AND ANYTHING ELSE WHICH IS FLAMMABLE!
NOTE: YOU ARE ADDING WATER TO VERY HOT OIL IN EACH OF THE ABOVE STEPS. IGNITION CAN OCCUR AT ANY TIME! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! :o
Step 11:
Reduce the heat and add any remaining ingredients and adjust to your liking
Step 12:
Stand back and admire your handiwork and go "Ahhhhhh! That smokey and toffee-like taste that I get from my local BIR! ;D"
Step 13:
Sit down and EAT your handiwork!
Well....someone had to eat the stage props! :P
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Photos (clockwise from the top left):
Photo 1: Well-seasoned cast-iron wok/karahi
Photo 2: Variable gas pressure supply
Photo 3: 3 ring gas burner of 32 MJ/h gas consumption (when "properly regulated")
Photo 4: Gas burner ready for action!
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Photos (top to bottom):
Photo 5: Frying the spices, etc
Photo 6: Adding the curry base
Photo 7: Igniting the curry
Photo 8: "Whhhhoooooooooosh!" ;D
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Photos (top to bottom):
Photo 9: Chicken Korma (left) and Chicken Vindaloo (right)
Photo 10: Prawn Madras
Photo 11: Prawn Korma
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Great stuff as always CA 8)
Do you find that there is a big difference between the currys you cook on your burner?
cK
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Wow CA,
That is the best post i have seen in ages. Its posts like this that make me want to get out in the garden and cook curry immediately.
Well done.
Stew 8)
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Great post, Cory.
Where did you get your burner, roughly how much did it cost, and does it run on bottled gas?
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Fantastic post!
Thanks for taking the time, and yes, where did you get the burner?
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Do you find that there is a big difference between the currys you cook on your burner?
Hi CK. Assuming that you mean is there a big difference between curries I cook on my burner and curries I cook on my domestic hob?......YES!
I have I no doubt that very high heat, and ignition, is instrumental in producing that "smokey", "toffee-like", "savoury" flavour usually found in a decent BIR curry.
The same curries, cooked on my domestic hob, are very nice and flavoursome, but they lack the above characteristics to anywhere near the same depth.
The "toffee-like" flavour is particularly prevalent if there is plenty of sugar around to caramelise, such as in a korma.
Where did you get your burner, roughly how much did it cost, and does it run on bottled gas?
Hi PB. I got it from a gas showroom (but in Australia!). You should also be able to find one in a decent camping shop. Mine cost about 16 quid. Yes, it runs on bottled LPG/propane/camping gas (see photo 2)
Also check out these previous threads on the subject:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1211.msg10548#msg10548 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1211.msg10548#msg10548)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1104.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1104.0)
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Incidentally, for those of you who claim to work in an Indian restaurant and takeway, or otherwise have defected to another site (and clearly have absolutely no idea what a proper BIR curry is like), and dare to suggest that the above is "absolutely ridiculous", or otherwise doubt that dishes are similarly ignited in proper BIRs, check out these pictures from a government web site extolling the virtues of Birmingham's curry culinary excellence.
These are REAL pictures of REAL chefs in REAL BIRs cooking REAL BIR curries ::)
Funny thing, must do things a bit differently in certain Indian restaurants and takeawys "up North" then, hey? ;) ::)
Regards,
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Cory
What a great post and superb photos! Many thanks.
I notice you say to simply "shake and stir" the ingredients in the pan, which is what I've always done, and looks like what BIR chefs do when I can see them working in open plan take away kitchens.
Whereas Andy says: "The key is heat, speed, and the mastering of the use of the spoon to extract the aroma and flavour. Once you have cracked it, it will become second nature." I took his use of the spoon in most of his recipes as a sort of number one secret if indeed there is one.
Have you (or anyone else here) tried this scraping of the spoon to compress the ingredients in the pan, and does it seem to make any difference to the final taste?
I should add that I'm not interested in starting any kind of slanging match here. Either the scraping of the spoon makes a difference, or it doesn't, to the final taste. That's all I'm intererested in - ascertaining which recipe and techniques help produce the best flavours.
Regards
George
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Thanks for the links, Cory. I see Eurocosm do an indoor version for ?79, looks ideal for me (my kitchen doesn't have gas). Do you reckon that would get hot enough?
http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Cooking-products/hot-wok-silver-GB.asp (http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Cooking-products/hot-wok-silver-GB.asp)
(http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/images/Hotwok/hot-wok-silver-md.jpg)
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Hi George,
I sometimes stand and stir\scrape depending on what else I have on the go. If I'm cooking\preparing other bits at the same I will usually leave the pan alone and return occasionally for a quick shake and stir. Can't say I notice a difference what about yourself have you seen the "scraping" video, what did you think?
cK
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Can't say I notice a difference what about yourself have you seen the "scraping" video, what did you think?
I think the scraping video was filmed in a domestic kitchen. It didn't inspire confidence. I'm only interested in final taste. Scraping didn't seem to add anything to my results - now you say much the same, by the sound of it. Has anyone else found the scraping technique to be any kind of breakthrough in terms of taste?
Regards
George
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That cooker looks amazing
Sorry to repeat, but do you feel you are getting 100%BIR copy?
I am seriously thinking of getting something like this
Have you found a British equivalent of your cooker?
(sorry if this has been already mentioned, bit short of time,going to work)
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Do you reckon that would get hot enough?
Looks very nice PB but, it appears to me that the "inside" version of the "HotWok" (shown here) is a bit on the weedy side (3.7kW is equivalent to about 13MJ/h, by my reckoning, though someone should probably check this!) and is akin to a typical domestic cooker. I certainly wouldn't bother with it if I already had a gas cooker or a reasonable camping stove.
The outside version (at 7kW or 25 MJ/h) is much more like it IMHO. 8)
Regards,
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Here's a Rochdale chef (Farooq Ahmed, head chef at Veenas) competing in the 2007 national curry cooking competition......obviously just trying to impress the judges with the flames I guess! ::)
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Wow that looks awesome but I am definitely NOT trying that at home! :o I guess this is confirmation that the very high heat and flames produce that taste we have so much trouble trying to replicate, as I was inclined to believe. Good job Cory Ander!
On a side note it's great to be back here, I've been away for a while and so much has changed!
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Welcome back Nesa, hope you are well.
I recommend doing this sort of cooking in your garden, will save your house from catching on fire.
Always keep a wet cloth near the pan in case you need to lay it on top.
Stew
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Cheers Stew. :)
Even in the garden this looks too terrifying, but I told the other half about this and he's keen to give it a go, I'll just stand by with the hose at the ready!
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This is an awesome post. I only started making BIR curry a few weeks ago and I'm really not far off. I found that the hotter the wok when the ingredients are added the better the taste (using CA's madras recipe). The problem is that even if I make a runny paste with the spices, they get close to burning pretty quickly. If using this method, how do you avoid burning spices, or tomato puree considering how hot it has to be? I assume adding water to stop the spices burning will lower the temperature?
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Spices in water will usually only cook at or just above 100oC.
It just takes practise, and a well seasoned pan will stop stuff sticking.
I use a pan which I think is carbon steel but I am not sure. When you are blasting things on a high heat you are adding so many ingredients quickly things dont have time to burn.
(just as an example)
30 secs garlic ginger.
30 secs onions and chiles
30 secs tomato paste
30 secs / 1 minute spices - keeping everything moving all the time
30 precooked meat and this brings more moisture in
then you are getting the base sauce in.
Also.....
I have mentioned this in a previous post..... My gas cooker is hot, but not as hot as I would prefer it so I heat my cast iron balti pans up till they are white hot - when you put a drop of water in it it should roll about and sizzle away in an instant.
Make sure your curry your serving is piping hot as much as you can get it and then ladel it all into the balti pan straight away -- this contact with the white hot surface gets the smoke and sizzling everywhere and serve while the smoke is still flying off the pan --- BIR taste and smell!
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Wow! Why haven't I seen this before! CA - awesome degree of effort in what I like to call "BIR taste chasing". Can anyone put me touch with the right sort of wok. I bought this tefal non stick number from Woolies but I can't get the Chinese fried rice taste that I can get on my parents Wok that was ?8 from Somerfield.
I want one that can really hold loads of heat.
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tefal woks are crap -- get a cheap iron one and season it. Chinese food like Indian gets some of its taste from the heavily carbonised woks and baltis used.
The chinese have a saying - the blacker the wok the better the cook
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get a cheap iron one and season it
How? Just use it a lot or?
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When you get it clean any coating off it - most iron woks come with a black tar stuff on them to protect from rust. This is the only time you will ever use detergent on it.
Heat it up very high - use a paper towel to rub oil all over it. Heat again for a while and let it cool. Repeat several times.
Anytime you finish using the wok - clean it under hot water but not with soaps or detergents. Heat it up. Coat in oil. Put back on heat and let it cool. A lot of places wipe it clean with water and just put some oil on it straight away - needs to be used a lot to do this and it is less hygienic I think - the additional heat after the clean should be enough to kill bacteria.
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How? Just use it a lot or?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1918.0.html
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Nice post, CA! Somehow I'd missed this one too.
How many times did it take you to master the technique? I guess the flames eventually go out of their own accord?
I think it'll be awhile before I get around to this experiment. This confirms that I've still a long way to go to be a proper "curry master" (not that I didn't already know...) :(
Ah well... nothing to do but move forward, I guess.
Cheers,
ast
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The "Ring Burner" I use (yes, a very apt name isn't it! :P) is the "RB30 triple ring burner" made in China (surprise, surprise) and is supplied by a company called "Companion". It runs off LPG/propane/natural gas and provides more than enough heat (i.e. about 30 MJ/h or about 8kW) for cooking curries using a 32cm wok/pan.
The smaller double ring burner (20MJ/h or about 5.5kW) would probably be suitable for smaller woks/pans (less than about 30cm) whilst the quad ring burner (59MJ/h or about 16kW) would probably be suitable for larger woks/pans (greater than about 34cm)
I've attached a specification sheet for these products at the bottom of this post.
I did email Companion but I didn't receive a reply ::). Here's a copy of my email to them:
"Dear Sir/Madam,
I am a member of a UK curry cooking forum, though I am currently living in Australia. I use one of your triple LPG burner rings.
Others (in the UK) are interested in buying them. Please could you tell me who might sell them in the UK?
Otherwise please would you tell me:
- if you would export them and, if so, at what cost (for your range of ring burners)?
- if you would sell them to me, with volume discount? If so, what volumes and what discount?
Thankyou for your assistance"
They DID have a web site http://www.companion.net.au but it no longer seems to be functioning :-\
Maybe someone might be interested in trying to source them in the UK? I can always ship some over to those that might be interested (but the freight will probably cost a fair bit because they are very heavy!) 8)
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following CA's prompt have located 2 potential UK sites:
alas both are not quite the same a CA's which appears to have lugs for seating the pan without additional framework.
http://www.bes.co.uk/ (http://www.bes.co.uk/) under LPG burners they have some ring burners listed but no pan seat so would need to contact them about mounting. interesting for me they have 1.6mm replacement jet for my stove (0.8mm fitted) which might just get me to 8.8kw if i find the need.
http://www.birminghamburner.co.uk/items.php?catid=2&catname=Ring (http://www.birminghamburner.co.uk/items.php?catid=2&catname=Ring) these have similar but no prices.
link back to Large Flame Cokker Post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2894.msg25739#msg25739 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2894.msg25739#msg25739)
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the steps on this thread are great. however i dont get where the water is added, and at what step? or is the adding of the base + its water content = to adding water. Are you suggesting adding water to hot oil, during the initial 4 minute cooking process , at start of knocking up a curry?
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it's amazing how u can miss vital clues.
CA says to add water to the spice mix which is added after the tom puree.
I follow this method for my cooking but i read in other posts that a better toffee/choking smell is achieved by adding the spices dry - which it does.
i then add a 1/2 ladle of base and then fry this off. it works a treat until u switch from electric hob to gas burner (albeit 2.5kw). i now find it too easy to burn the spices and should have re-read CA's brief. the oil/spice trials confirmed this extra water to be essential. i believe u can add either as water to the spice or water to the tom puree provided if the water is added to the puree the spice is added at the same time or not long after.
the choking smell comes from chilli if it's in the spice mix (a small amount being a must for me).
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Thanks jerry, thats a bit clearer now. It also explains why the bir tom puree is watered down. i must start doing that with my new tub of white tower. i actually compared the taste of white tower puree to standard, sainsbury tubed tom puree , and they are very similar. both quite sweet. so anyone who cant get white tower, should not worry about using a good supermarket tom puree, as its dam similar. although white tower is best. luckily i work near 6 indian grocers, and am practically tripping over tubs of pataks, and white tower tins every lunch time!
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emm! i've been waiting for my local man to get the white tower in stock (he has some Italian stuff).
i was hoping it might have had a better taste.
sound's like you're as happy (sad) as me and will enjoy this previous post on Indian & Asian Supermarkets http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2776.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2776.0)
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i've now upgraded my stove from 2.5kw to something in the region of 8kw (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2944.msg30042#msg30042 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2944.msg30042#msg30042)).
immediately in doing so i got a lot more smoke than i've ever done before and that smell that u get going into a BIR (not the spice smell). the difference in cooking is stark and very different.
the trouble is it's very hit and miss in getting the smell into the taste.
i cooked 6 off curry sauces in total using my normal method (effectively CA's steps). 3 off were no good (no better than 2.5kw stove), 1 off had a hint of what i was after, 1 off was burnt and 1 off hit the mark 100%.
i don't know what was right in the 1 off and wrong in the rest though. in fact i think u could actually cook at the higher kw and never get the taste. there is something that's in the method but not obvious.
possibilities include:
1) flaming the oil
2) frying the g/g paste
3) catching the spices whilst emulsifying
4) not stirring at certain important times
i don't really have a clue. it could even be a bit of all.
a few other things crept into the picture which i'm not certain on but i add in case they are of interest:
1) i felt i needed to add more oil due to the flaming
2) i felt the amount of spices and the type/individual amounts less important - for the 1st time i felt the spoon measurements did not need to be that exact and the name on the mix powder not that critical
3) i needed to water the base down much thinner than normal (i did this late on, it had no effect on the taste but made cooking easier)
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given i couldn't pinpoint what causes the smokey taste during the cooking i felt i needed to try a different approach to resolve the hit and mis taste.
i took some veg oil, curry powder, watered tom puree, water, g/g paste out to my new kitchen (the garage) and had a few hrs trying the individual steps and tasting the results. i also went back after a while for some salt.
the whole experience was well worth it and would recommend it as sort of "essential" training.
it re-enforced to me that cooking at the higher heat is actually no different in principle to cooking at say 2.5kw. it's crucial not to burn and a measure of success is for the pan surfaces to stay smooth ie no burnt "black" debris (or at least minimal as it's almost impossible to avoid a little).
the results of the "training" were:
1) u don't want the oil to get too hot as it burns and produces an inferior taste
2) flaming the oil gives no taste improvement
3) adding water at any stage gives no taste improvement
4) adding water can avert burning
5) as know previously the emulsification "frying of the spices" causes the tom puree to become very sweet. the addition of a little salt greatly improves the effect.
6) as known previously if there's very little water during the emulsification the spices will be prone to burning
7) over cooking the garlic/ginger paste causes it to stick to the pan and is then prone to burning
having got a hunch from the training i cooked 4 off dishes: 3 off with 100% smokey flavour and 1 off 75%.
from this i now believe:
1) the stove can run at full whack throughout
2) the garlic/ginger paste can be added as the oil heats up and should not be over cooked (only needs the rawness cooking out)
3) once the tom puree and spices have been added and mixed the pan should be left essentially to emulsify without stirring (max 1 off stir towards the end around the base rim). it's at this point that the smokey taste is created. it's difficult to determine what exactly the mechanism is as there are 2 stages: initial flaming during the mixing and then boiling during the emulsification. if u have a preference to fryoff some of the base then this should be added at the time of the tom puree and spices
4) the base, passata, coriander, onion paste etc can then be added and reduced. there is no extra "smokiness" created during this reduction so the cooking can be stopped or the heat turned down as needed.
the only other thing to add is the heat is quite critical to producing the smokey taste. initially during the training i had the stove lower (due to the small qty of ingredients being used). without realising i'd actually missed out on the smokiness and it was only by going back up to full whack (well almost - as the flames engulf the pan otherwise) that the smokey taste was obtained. i realised the mistake due to the lack of the specific smell associated with the smokey flavour. this smell is a very good guide to knowing how you're doing.
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i've had another go at this but failed miserably. the pan was getting too much black "burnt" debris which is not what u want for sure.
i think i went back into my previous 3wk cooking mode without realising. i also think i did not use enough oil (using 2 tbsp when i now think 4 tbsp is probably the min at this heat). i'd also switched from cooking curry sauce to curry "dishes" (ie addition of onion and green pepper) and i think moved out of my area of expertise for sure.
i'm still though at a loss as to why it's so hit and miss. still have some base left for later in the week but expectations are low.
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i am now pretty much 100% sure that the bad night "burnt/black debris" was down to using grated onion (see post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3393.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3393.0)).
will have to wait to make base again to be totally sure but expectations on cracking the hit and mis are again high.
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Hi Jerry,
Maybe I'm missing the point of your trials and tribulations here, but why do you feel that additional onion is necessary for Madras?
In a Bhuna/Jalfrezi/Dopiaza, OK, but I was under the impression you were optimizing the Madras. The other ones I've already determined to be BIR standard (CK's bhuna and Stew's Jalfrezi anyway).
Madras is still not 100% for me either, but adding onion I don't think is the way... Appreciate your thoughts.
-- Josh
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Josh,
sorry for the confusion. the onions are not relevant to the trials - it was just that when i used grated onion i got a real disaster. i was not sure at the time what had caused it and why i'd lost the smokey flavour - hence the update once i'd realised the grated onion had side tracked me.
the onion & madras connection for me is down to me trying to get sylhety. i am happy with madras and have recently posted recipe.
just to clarify this post is about getting that smokey flavour.
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the grated onion was for defo the reason for the black "burnt" debris on my previous cooking session.
i've still got hit and mis on the smokiness (cooked 3 dishes monday with 1 off perfect and the other 2 no smokiness at all).
getting this right is proving tricky and i won't post till i've got it spot on. i think "swirling" the pan during the emulsification messed me up this time. tried it out thinking that it was a good way of detecting when the emulsification is complete. it does help but i think it's a no no on the smoke front.
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i've had another go at this but failed miserably. the pan was getting too much black "burnt" debris which is not what u want for sure.
Hi Jerry
I've had this "black debris" problem
I know exactly what you mean
It took me ages to figure it out
I've seen them cooking meals then tried it at home with such a different result
Garlic/ginger, tomato puree, fresh chopped garlic, onion, pepper
Everything cooks really slow with no burning
It's the old oil BIR's use
It has such a low smoke point, that nothing burns in it
Everything cooks at a lower temperature
The oil also carries "the taste" you're after
It's really annoying because there seems no short cut to produce this oil
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haldi thanks for your thoughts - they got me pondering.
i'm ok on the black debris now but i still can't get consistency on the smokiness. i'm now starting to thinking it might be down to ingredient and not technique. i'm using cury gravy oil (ie reclaimed) so i don't feel i'm missing that part of the equation. the trouble is i can't fathom out what's causing the problem.
this is where i'm upto.
should just emphasise this is a about getting a smokiness taste not the quality of the dish taste which i am sure is the same as most on the site given the posts and pics. this smokiness u only really want in madras and karahi related dishes.
monday night cooked 3 dishes (madras, ashoka karahi bhuna, madras).
dish 1 100% just what i'm after ie full smokie taste
dish 2 karahi bhuna no smokiness.
dish 3 tried a few ingredient changes which did not work.
friday night cooked 4 dishes (CK's CTM, madras, kushi karahi bhuna, madras).
dish 1 CTM no smokiness (i appreciated u don't need it or want it in this dish).
dish 2 madras - 75% almost what i'm after ie smokie taste.
dish 3 karahi bhuna no smokiness
dish 4 madras no smokiness
a bit of explanation. the madras is my std madras plus onion & garlic slithers.
all dishes were cooked in "exactly" the same way and same heat (this was my aim).
on friday night i measured out the spice mix in advance so dish 2 & 4 were exactly the same.
the stove is ruddy hot with the flames lapping up and over the rim. i now feel totally comfortable with it and cooking at this temp. to give u an idea my pan handle is 9" long and i can only hold it right at the end without using a towel. the finished dish bubbles like mad as it travels over the rim of the pan into the serving dish. the residual heat in the pan will burn garlic in about 15 secs. the dishes are cooked in 5 mins despite having very thin curry base.
a few observations:
1) why don't the bhuna's get a smokiness if it's solely down to technique - i'm aiming to cook them exactly the same as madras. the differences being completely different spice mix to madras, no passata, more onion paste, green pepper
2) same again for the CTM. it's spice mix is closer to madras and has some passata
3) why do 2 off identically prepared and cooked madras turn out with different taste.
i intend to work on this at lot but would appreciate any thoughts on what i might try to help pin point what causes the smokiness. my current thoughts being:
1) i need to add a spice ingredient separately ie say paprika to avoid variation in the mixed spice mix
2) i need to time the spice frying/emulsification period to cut down on variation due to a possible fine line between getting the smokiness or burning the dish
it's all good fun though and obviously going to have to make a lot more curry.
i do know that the following are not related to the smokiness:
1) garlic/ginger and onion pastes
2) onion & pepper
3) passata
4) coriander
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hi jerry just a quick question, what are the ingredients for you karahi bhuna? ie pre cooked green peppers/onion oil content, spice mix tomato paste etc? and your method for cooking this dish as it maybe able to narrow down your search. another is your method for cooking the madras your nose is the key and your eyes secondary, rty to narrow down when the smoky aroma starts to appear. is it before or after the 1st ladle of base is added? how do you tell when it is right to add the base?
regards
gary :)
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appreciate your input Gary.
karahi bhuna is essentially the "ashoka": 3 tbsp oil, 1 tbsp garlic/ginger paste, 1 chef spoon ea chopped onion & green pepper (the onion pre par boiled), 2 tsp east end garam masala, 1 tbsp tom puree (in water), good pinch frozen chopped coriander, 2 to 3 tbsp onion paste.
i use the same method to cook all curries (i actually think it's pretty much your method that i've learnt): oil in, as it heats up add g/g and fry 30 secs (just till rawness gone), pan off heat add spice, salt, chilli, puree, 1/2 ladle base 75ml, then fry leaving undisturbed to emulsify (ie toffee/spice smell given off, water almost gone and starts to crater), then add base 2 ladle 300ml (base is thin), passata 1 tbsp (if adding), coriander, onion paste, then simmer and stir occasionally, all in 5 mins.
i can't really rely on nose to identify when the smoky aroma starts as is pretty much immediate when the garlic/ginger gets to temp. the smoke is then there throughout the cooking. it even stays in the garage (where i cook) for days after (particularly nice on monday mornings - invigorating.
the only difficulty on method i think i have and potentially where some variation could creep in is in determining the end point of the emulsification - just as u say when the 1st ladle of base is added. this part is essentially a game of chicken. leave it too long and the spice burns, too early and the smokiness in the dish never arrives.
i think there must be more than 1 variable. i think the bhuna is down to the spice mix - i think maybe the absence of paprika. i think the identical madras giving different result must be down to chickening out too early.
i guess the crux is knowing when to add that 1st ladle of base as at this higher temp i can't rely on the nose (too much smoke) and sight only sees the top of the pan.
it may even be the burner in that it only has one ring which does not heat the middle of the pan directly. who knows! it's good fun trying though.
i do seem to be able to get the consistency when i just make plain curry sauce though ie no onion/pepper. maybe these should go in after the 1st ladle ie pre cook both but i don't feel that would be BIR.
one to ponder a bit longer. i intend to try out any promising thoughts over the easter break.
one thing i missed before in response to haldi was that i am going to switch back to red oil base for a while and see if that makes a difference (been using yellow oil now for several months).
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Can anyone put me touch with the right sort of wok.
I want one that can really hold loads of heat.
Go to your local Chinese supermarket and get a bog standard cast iron wok (one-handle). I had my last one for nearly 20 years, current one for about 10!
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Interesting reading this thread :-\ I have watched my curry being made at some T/A & Restaurants and as yet have never seen the wok on fire yet the curry's fantastic so I don't personally believe you have to catch your curry alight to achieve a delicious curry .
Also I make experimental changes to the way I make my regular Saturday night Madras , Pilau Rice ,and Onion Bhaji's and have found the following.
Base. (Onions,Garlic,Red Pepper,Carrot,various Spices)
* If you don't already, add enough Salt to give your base some ' taste ' like you would if you were making a Beef stew.
* Not tried yet but instead of covering your Onions with water why not use stock cubes to enhance the flavour of your base ?
Pilau Rice.
*Fry your Rice in Butter and Oil before you add your water for boiling, deelicious :P
Onion Bhaji's.
* Try using plain flower instead of Gram flower,very nice not so ' heavy ' batter.
Madras.
*Tried Onion paste a few weeks ago,Yuk ! spoilt the flavour of my Curry.
*Tried adding fresh chopped Chillies at the Garlic/Ginger frying stage to see what difference they would make to the taste rather than just my usual Chili/Mirch powder.
Just increases the ' burning' sensation and continues to burn for some time ! whereas with Chili powder you get the initial heat but doesn't last as long as with Chillies.
*I use about 9 Tbs of oil for a 3 portion Madras ,I put a small amount of oil in the Wok to fry the Garlic/Ginger etc then when I add the spices which 'mop up' all the oil I add the remainder of the oil.
*My wife commented on how the house smelt like an Indian Takeaway when she turns on the deep fat fryer !this is due to me cooking the Bhaji's in the fryer which have various spices in them but this gave me the idea of using some of this oil for my Madras ( Spiced oil and all that ) and the result was no difference to fresh oil :(
*My wife reckoned my Madras was a little 'thick' and needed thinning to give more sauce so I added some water which made plenty of sauce but killed some of the flavour which she agreed :( it seems to me to be critical how much water you add to affect the flavour.
These are only my personal findings and most of my curry's have been delicious, at the end of the day it's all down to personal taste but I will continue with my Quest. ;)
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emin-j,
quest continues for sure and it's essential reading on how other's are doing.
i agree u don't need to set fire to the oil. when i 1st started cooking at this higher heat i was always setting fire. i have a light in the garage above the stove and was always afraid i was going to set fire to it and put the house lights out. now i rarely get any ignition as i leave the pan flat on the stove. as soon as the pan's tilted it will light.
the smokey taste is instantly recognisable and once achieved u don't want to go back. it's proving very hard to work out why in following CA's steps i get such a hit and mis result. the more i try "experiment" the closer i'm sure i'll eventually get. don't get me wrong even without the smokiness the curries are very good - they're just not a 10.
if u like stock in your base try out currytesters which uses chicken stock.
what colour was the onion paste. i ask as mine is red and thinking of making it dark but not totally convinced it would suit my taste buds.
this "mop up" the oil i think is why maliks add oil, g/g, onion and spices in one go.
on the sauce thickness try making your base a lot thinner (almost to the extent u think it's just like water) then evap it off at cooking stage to the point u want - that way the flavour is not affected as much.
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Hi JerryM,
Thank's for the tip about the thickness of the base I'll try making it thinner next time ,to be honest it was a bit on the heavy side perhaps adding stock rather than water may improve the flavour of the base as well as thin it down a bit.I noticed in the Malik's video's his base is very ' curry sauce ' looking ( brownish in colour )
whereas my base is more like the colour of Tomato Soup.
Also the amount and method of adding Spices ( dive in with the chef's spoon ! )is a lot different than me measuring it out with a tea spoon ! ::)
The Onion Paste was dark Brown ,Caramelised Onion,Garlic,Oil,whizzed to a paste ,the Onion seemed to overpower the usual flavour of the Madras.
My wife thinks I'm nuts making changes to what she reckons is a perfect Madras and my Daughter and Son in Law who live nearby had a tub of my Madras and phoned to say how much better my Curry was compared to our local award winning T/A ::) which we have used for the past few years .....until I found this site ;D
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emin-j,
given what u say on the colour of your base i would do a side by side ingredient comparison with those on the site - say the saffron for example as your ingredients suggest very similar. alternatively post it and get member thoughts. i'd certainly encourage a post on the madras recipe.
thanks for the description on the onion paste. i do intend trying out the dark take on it but fear i may get your result too which would not be good for my taste buds.
the good ladies don't seem to understand curry - stick to your guns and keep any thought out changes going but mindfull of the 80/20 rule on effort and gains.
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Hi JerryM,
The base is - 6 Medium or 8 small Onions
1 Red Pepper
3 Whole bulbs of Garlic
1 Piece of Ginger 2" square ish
1 Carrot
1 Good Tsp Turmeric
1 '' '' Paprika
1 '' '' Cummin
1 '' '' Coriander ( powder )
2 '' '' Curry Powder
2 '' '' Chili Powder
1 Tin of Plum Tomato's
Plenty of Salt to taste ( prob 1-2 tablespoons )
1 Cup of Sunflower Oil
Rough chop ingredients,put in large saucepan,add cold water,bring to boil, Then cover and simmer until water has reduced,then add Spices/Toms/Oil/Salt, gently stir in,continue to simmer for 10 - 20 mins.
When cooled Puree in blender.
Makes about 2.5 ltrs.
Madras is basically the one that goes with SnS's base.http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2783.0
But I fry 1 diced green chili per portion when I fry the Garlic/Ginger/Tom Puree
Also where the recipe states 1 Teaspoon of Tom/Puree I use 1 Tablespoon ( per portion )I also add some quarterted fresh Tomato's at the time I add the Spices plus some fresh Corriander,also for Garnish.
Pre cooked Chicken as can be found on the forum -
Chicken Marinade.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3215.0
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moderator - this subject ideally needs moving to a new post so it does not mix up with the post subject
I noticed in the Malik's video's his base is very ' curry sauce ' looking ( brownish in colour )
whereas my base is more like the colour of Tomato Soup.
emin-j,
i think it must be the red pepper or the cooking time that's affecting the colour of the base. i would try green pepper initially and then a longer cooking (i cook 3 hrs in total). i would also add 500ml of water to thin the finished base to 3L. rest looks pretty good except maybe the amount of chilli which is really down to personal taste (i use 1 tsp and make up at cooking stage as needed). i also consider coriander stalk a must in a base.
method & cooking looks good.
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i think i'm pretty much sorted on the hit and miss of the smokey taste.
i cooked a curry sauce and a garlic chicken (ie with onion and pepper) last night both with smokey taste. so that's 3 in a row. the garage has happily billowed with smoke on each occasion.
i put it down to a very simple problem - the gas stove has a thumb wheel to adjust the heat but no visible indicator to say how hot. this i've done by sight (and probably should have gone to spec savers). i intend to put some kind of marker on it.
a final thought which may or not be of interest. i had TA this week for the 1st time since moding the stove. the normal "exceedingly good" chef was on a night off. the curries tasted as good as they normally do but no smokiness.
so i guess it proves that u don't necessarily need the smokiness to have a very good 10 curry. for me though having been brought up on it i won't be going back to my gas hob.
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i'm not sorted on the smokey taste at all.
in fact i'm well perplexed (i think that's the word for it).
i'd initially thought that the taste was connected to the smoke.
this week i've cooked twice. the 1st night i think i hit 3 out of 5 dishes and on the 2nd night 1 out of 5. 4 off were Admins Jalfrezi and the rest pretty much CK's madras.
i'm beginning to think that it is ingredient related partially as Admins's Jalfrezi and the Ashoka Korahi Bhuna don't seem to want to oblige with the smokey taste at all. the only ingredient that stands out as missing c/w madras is tom puree or passata.
trouble is the Madras are not being consistent either. 1 off was the best i've cooked. the remaining 5 off not quite there.
i've tried a few things out of desperation:
1) purposely set fire to the garlic/ginger - no effect
2) "swoshed" the pan contents around as opposed to stir infrequently - this does increase the amount of smoke significantly but no taste effect
the hit and miss is real annoying as the hit leaves me with nothing more to want. the miss is a good curry.
i'm now thinking it might be down to the proportion of oil that i use in the base. i keep it pretty low preferring to add the oil at frying stage. i aim for around 7% oil c/w the uncooked volume of onion (100 ml in 800g onion). i'm thinking the oil in the base could be a factor as the 2nd night gave less smoke flavour than the 1st night. after the 1st night i watered the base down feeling that it was not thin enough. the extra water helps significantly with the cooking at this very high heat.
why i'm not totally sure it's not down to ingredient is that during cooking of the dish that was the best tasting so far i distinctly remember the passata creating a great plume of smoke when it was added. of course it could be the technique that i'm missing.
in short proving a hard nut to crack but well worth the effort.
i intend to make a heavy oil base next (will use the saffron) and see if this helps.
on a up note i feel i'm now at ease cooking at the high heat with no burns or black debris. nb the swoshing was not good in terms of making the inside rim of the pan difficult to keep clean and jumped out as defo not BIR practise.
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i had 2 potions of base left so decided to just add extra oil (calculated that what i had left contained 18ml of oil so added another 2 tbsp or 30ml).
then cooked 2 off CK's madras.
the 1st cooked by what i would say my norm technique: oil (3tbsp), quick g/g fry, spices/puree quick stir and leave to fry until cratering, add all base/coriander only stir occasionally. the resulting curry had the smokey taste but no better than my norm.
the 2nd i cooked slightly different: more oil (5 tbsp - i used up what i had left), left spices much longer (almost at burn), added base a chef spoon at a time (as opposed to ladle) and quick swosh with spoon around the pan and repeat.
i felt i got a lot more smoke on the 2nd. nb despite more oil being added there is none on the surface of the finished dish - saying to me it's all been burnt into smoke. without tasting i would have said the 2nd would have been smokier.
it certainly was - as good as it gets.
i now think it might just be down to how much oil is added at cooking time. don't feel the change to what's in the base is relevant. i'm not really convinced that the different approaches to cooking made the difference - but that's what i'll tryout out a bit more when i make base next. adding the base a bit at a time is of interest - timing the spices to almost burn is very camacarzi and just not BIR.
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Hi Jerry
did you think that cooking the spices for so long cooked out the flavour/spicyness of the final dish? I once read a thread by BE where he said that if you fry the spices for too long then your kitchen would smell like a bir but the finished curry will lack the subtle aromas?
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mickdabass,
since upping the burner there has been no change in the flavour/spicyness at all. i firmly believe that "burning" is the only issue with cooking the spices. i add water in the tom puree (2:1 water to puree) and feel this sort of protects the spices while they're cooking. for info i also add 1/2 ladle of base to effectively add extra water.
the "long" cooking is perhaps relative. i would say the norm i cook the spices is 30 secs. i feel last night's curry no 2 was about 60 secs (i don't time it relying on sight and smell).
i've also tried out the "slow boat" method of cooking and feel overall the spices are cooked to the same extent (ie lower heat for longer). i don't believe it's possible (in fact essentially 100% sure) u can't get the smokiness taste (the smell is like walking into a BIR TA) without the high heat.
in switching to the bigger burner jet the only real difficulty i've found is in sort of adapting the technique to accommodate the much faster cooking and temp. this i essentially do through timing in making sure there is always free water in the pan. in a nut shell the only downside is the higher potential for black debris around the pan inner edges if things don't go as they should - but it's down to practise.
u can't cook in your kitchen either (too much smoke and mess). i'd also add that u don't need the smokiness in most dishes either (only madras and korahi type dishes).
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Jerry not sure if this is of use, but it may help. the chef at my local bir adds very little oil to the base (half a cup) but adds loads of water and makes it very very thin. much thinner than safron. he then adds about 7 - 9 tbs oil at frying stage. i have had great results copying this approach. hope other members do to. interestingly they add the spice mix after they add the base sauce to the pan. i guess with so much oil and heat in the pan, the spices get properly cooked, and there is less risk of burning. it seems to work well for them.
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DD,
u're a star - very much of use.
i'd come to the same conclusion on the base a while ago (little oil and much water much thinner than saffron). i've been experimenting with the water for a few weeks now. the extra water really helps the cooking (no black debris) but too much and it becomes obvious as it takes too long to evap off (i aim for 3 mins or so).
the oil at frying stage is something i'd started to think about but your chefs 7-9 tbs sounds as if it might just sort me out. in moving from the 3 tbsp norm (2 tbsp before upgrading the stove) to 5 tbsp the other night i felt it could well be what i need to stop the hit and mis. i'll give it a go for sure. the health factor is not an issue as it's all burned off.
the technique on spice timing again is very interesting - i've not tried it but would certainly ease the cooking loads. it's sits well for me and i will certainly give it a go.
many thanks DD. it' been proving a tad difficult to pin down what's happening to end up with the hit and miss when i feel i do everything exactly the same. i'm possibly just on the boarderline and your suggestions may just do it - fingers crossed.
i'd like to get on with recipe refinement but feel bogged down at the mo.
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Jerry M
Sorry for the delay in replying, but thanks for the very concise answer
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despite more oil being added there is none on the surface of the finished dish - saying to me it's all been burnt into smoke.
Highly unlikely Jerry. I've noticed that the curry can soak up a heart-stoppingly large amount of oil before it will start releasing it at the end of cooking. This, in my experience, has varied with the type of base used, the quantity of spicing, and other factors too.
Simply put, curries love oil.
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Secret Santa,
yeah i definitely agree. the taste of the dish is not something u could get without oil (or probably more important enough of it) - it's the combination of the "soup" base, spice and oil which produces the magic we love.
what i feel though (probably obvious) is there is some connection between the amount of smokey taste and the amount of smoke produced whilst cooking. i think both technique and oil must play a big part. i tell u there's a lot of smoke.
before cooking at the higher heat i was always a healthy "mean" on the oil but did get some oil floating on the surface of the finished dish. i now use more oil but not significantly more (3 tbsp c/w 2tbsp originally). given there is always some oil on the surface of a BIR then i think DD may just have given me a push in the right direction. i'm now thinking i've been sort of boarder line with the oil hence the hit and miss (probably 3 tbsp in volume terms has sometimes been 4 when dolloping it into the pan).
it's going to be real interesting for me what happen's when i try out the 8 tbsp (7 - 9 DD's range). me being currently unsure how "technique" weighs in c/w the oil. i've had lost's of smoke and no taste in the past. trouble is this could have been down to not having the stove on enough (which i've now sorted with a marker on the control thumbwheel). there is definitely a point/cut off when the heat makes a difference.
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i made 1 off CK's madras last night using DD's suggestion of upping the oil. i used 2 chef spoon (8 tbsp) instead of my norm 3 tbsp. i also made 2 off kashmiri curries.
all 3 off had the smokiness. 1st time 100% consistency. the 8 tbsp seemed too much and might settle for something like 6 tbsp for madras in future. i used 4 tbsp for the kashmiri where i wasn't looking to get the smokiness.
cooking with the 8 tbsp was surprisingly very different (much easier).
i still don't know what/where in the cooking produces the difference but i'm hoping the effect of the extra oil was no fluke. i think it's what Haldi has said previously about the flames lapping up the sides of the pan and atomising the oil - but who cares.
if i can achieve a repeat then i'm sorted.
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Jerry - that's encouraging. And the curry looks lush.
A lot of your experiments in this thread seemed very hit and miss, so I hope you've got it sorted.
I too have gone from 3 tbsp oil to around 5 tbsp as the result seems better. You can always skim excess oil the end.
-- Josh
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Looking good JerryM.
Purely co-incidentally I've just started upping the oil from a lot to outrageous amounts (technical terms). I find that covering the bottom of the pan quite liberally, say 1/16th inch seems to give good results, giving a nice 'emulsion in oil' finish to the curry just like in your photo. The left overs have a nice border of red oil after a night in the fridge, another good sign in my book anyway.
Curry on
CoR
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All you need to do now Jerry is to scoop off as much of that oil as you possibly can and use it to start off your next curry. It makes all the difference.
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Josh, CoR, Secret Santa,
some interesting thoughts to chew on (5 tbsp, 1/16" or 2mm, scooping off).
i'm still trying to taken on board the difference upping the oil had on the madras in terms of taste and ease of cooking.
this will keep me going for quite a while. i'm going to try 6 tbsp next and perhaps a 4 tbsp. the scooping off is also something that crossed my mind (we actually spooned some off whilst eating and i put this in my onion paste jar - perhaps wasted opportunity emm!).
the big thing is to keep the hits coming. i am pretty confident though that it was the oil all the time and that i was sort of teetering on the border line. there can't really be any other explanation (especially given the taste was there in the 2 off kasmiri curries which i did not expect or plan for)
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i'm now sorted on this.
i will use 6 tbsp (1.5 chef spoon) in madras and 4 tbsp in other curries.
surprisingly i've found the extra oil cooks the onion and garlic with no problems from raw (avoiding the need to pre fry or par boil). i added raw garlic slithers last night on top of the chopped garlic and they cooked to perfection. the raw chopped onion does the same.
the emulsification stage seems to have a better tolerance too ensuring u can work well away from the "burnt" end of the spectrum.
there is no 1 off point where the smokiness taste is produced (only really noticeable at the end). consequently i'm sure it's down to a slow build up during the evap stage. i can't work out the mechanism. i'm pretty sure it's to do with small bubbles of oil/steam being given off from the surface of the curry and coming into contact with the flames lapping around the pan. a sort of vapourisation must occur which somehow puts the smokiness into the curry. there is also a constant plume of smoke being given off which is associated in some way - without the smoke there is no smokiness.
anyhow matters not for me. i can now move on to recipe refinement.
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a word of caution on this. the smokiness is not for everyone and certainly not for every dish.
last night i made CK's CTM and of course it ended up with the smokiness. my customer who loves his CK's CTM complained that the dish was poor compared to normal - down to it having smokiness.
for me though 4 curries cooked and 4 off with smokiness - just need to update the recipes where it's not needed to keep the complaints down.
ps i'll try and get a pic during the cooking (need to work on it - already tried but proving a tad difficult to capture it well enough)
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update: having settled on using more oil (4 tbsp std ~1 chef spoon, 6 tbsp smokiness)
in using more oil i'm finding it much easier cooking and getting good consistency.
i'd found for a while that my pan was prone to getting black debris around the base of the rim on the inside. given that i was getting good results i felt confident enough to turn the heat down a little (tried 3/6th turn ie 1/2 a rev on the thumbwheel instead of 4/6 turn which has been my norm for some time).
i have no idea how much this reduces the heat but it worked a treat. i still had to use a tea towel over the end of the pan handle to tip the dish out of the pan into the serving bowl so not that much reduction. i still got plumes (lots) of smoke and the flames still sit above the rim of the pan.