Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: CurryManUKs on December 19, 2020, 11:01 AM
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Hey everyone.
I realize that some of you have been trying to perfect BIR style curries for years. I have some questions regarding the curry making process and would like to hear your insight.
1) Does it matter whether you add tomato paste before or after adding the spices?
2) Does seasoned oil make a difference?
3) Does onion paste (Bunjarra) make a difference?
4) Does cooking the tomato puree before adding it to your curry help (the idea is that it removes acidity)?
5) What is the best spice mix you've used?
6) What is the best base gravy you've used?
Of course, if you can't weigh in on some of them, just answer the ones you can.
Many thanks. :smile:
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Hallo CMUK, and welcome. I can't answer many of your questions, so let me try to answer only those that I think I can
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Welcome curry man
1) Does it matter whether you add tomato paste before or after adding the spices?
I?ve seen examples of both. I prefer frying the spices first but not sure exactly how much difference it makes
2) Does seasoned oil make a difference?
Never tried, although I do have some oil reserved from making bhajis that I may try.
3) Does onion paste (Bunjarra) make a difference?
I made a batch of this, then froze individual ice cube portions and wrapped in cling film. I?ve tried curries with and without and honestly couldn?t tell the difference.
4) Does cooking the tomato puree before adding it to your curry help (the idea is that it removes acidity)?
I haven?t tried this yet, but am going to, using Syed?s method on his YouTube channel.
5) What is the best spice mix you've used?
Can?t say any have the magic certain something that many claim. I?ve usually got a couple on the go. Currently Syed?s from Britishian Food and Romain?s from Glebe Kitchen.
6) What is the best base gravy you've used?
Again, none have absolutely stood out. Tried Al?s Kitchen, Misty Ricardo, Syed but have used one I kind of cobbled together using my Instant Pot electric pressure cooker. Seems to be OK and doesn?t take hours like some do. Very repeatable for me.
Robbo
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1) Does it matter whether you add tomato paste before or after adding the spices?
2) Does seasoned oil make a difference?
3) Does onion paste (Bunjarra) make a difference?
4) Does cooking the tomato puree before adding it to your curry help (the idea is that it removes acidity)?
5) What is the best spice mix you've used?
6) What is the best base gravy you've used?
The answer to the first 3 is yes. How much it matters and what difference it makes is a personal determination.
Q4, it would be my feeling that as long as it is cooked it makes no significant difference.
Q5, assuming you're referring to Mix powder, Mixed powder or Mixed Curry powder, they are different. Syed's (when fresh) used with his recipes was very tasty. I used CT's or my own for ages and have tried many others. They all work.
Q6, I've tried many from the simplest to the ridiculously laborious with exotic vegetables (Chinese Radish) They all produce curry and some are more suited to a particular style of dish so it depends what you're cooking. Syed's is good with his recipes, JB's was standard and I always thought highly of CT.'s gravies, (the inclusion of chicken frames in one stovetop version was a winner for me). Misty Ricardo's works as well with his recipes.
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Thank you for the warm welcome. I feel that "special ingredients/tricks" on their own might not make a discernible difference i.e. using seasoned oil instead of regular oil, but with enough alterations, i.e. seasoned oil, aluminium pan, and onion paste in one dish, perhaps they may. Which of these condiments work together, and in what way, remains unknown to me. It's very time-consuming to test properly (making one or two adjustments at a time and holding every other variable equal: the base gravy, spice mix, tomato paste, seasoned oil, onion paste, etc., the quantities of each, etc.) but I'm curious if anyone has taken the time to do it. It seems like there's just far too much to adjust for unless you're willing to put an inordinate amount of time into cranking out dozens of base gravies, spice mixes, etc. (which I shamelessly am, just the prospect seems overwhelming at times). I think they'd have to be made right after each other, too, since it can be difficult to precisely recall the flavor of a dish. I realize people may find this sort of pedantry rather galling, but that's just how I am.
I've also noticed people speak of that "missing 5%" and, honestly, I'd love for someone to elaborate on what is meant by that. If I order a curry from my local takeaway, it doesn't taste like my curry, yes, but that's true of nearly every curry that uses different recipes/ingredients/techniques. Another point is that people who mention that "elusive BIR taste" order from different restaurants in different regions. How are we certain that everyone has the same meaning of "the missing 5%" in mind? Is there a specific description of that taste? If so, I apologize for the oversight.
One more thing -- on the subject of curry/madras powders (I almost exclusively make madras curries), does anyone have a recommendation? I bought the rajah mild madras powder and found it much too pungent. I prefer the smell of the "Old India" brand that's available on Amazon, but not in supermarkets. If anyone has tried rajah, and knows of a brand that has a milder, more pleasant smell, then I'd love to know about it.
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There is a member here (unfortunately I forget whom) who consistently did spreadsheet-style analyses; if I can track him (or her) down, I will let you know. As regards "the missing 5%", I know exactly what is meant by the phrase, but would be completely unable to explain it in a scientific way. All I can say is that most of us, from time to time, get very close to perfection, yet we know that if we were able to visit a BIR of yore, their curries would still be consistently better than our finest efforts. These days, I suspect that most of us can get within 98.5% of what most BIRs churn out these days, but to my mind at least (and I think that Secret Santa, amongst others, will agree with me) what we get these days is not a patch on what we got in the late 60's/early 70's.
** Phil.
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I started a spreadsheet to track my BIR results but stopped after I had my first revelatory 9/10 vindaloo that honestly got very close to what I felt was takeaway taste and then did an exact repeat the following week, only to have the all-too-familiar ?alright but not quite?.
The technique / heat level / timing were the only variances although I thought I?d replicated everything.
I?ve resigned myself to understanding that I can make a good curry, but not THE curry.
And unlike my fellow Brits back home, I can?t just go out and get takeaway. Boo!
Robbo
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what we get these days is not a patch on what we got in the late 60's/early 70's.
The obvious difference would be the salt (and sugar, probably oil) usage.
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And unlike my fellow Brits back home, I can't just go out and get takeaway.
Don't worry Robbo
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And unlike my fellow Brits back home, I can't just go out and get takeaway.
Don't worry Robbo
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There is a member here (unfortunately I forget whom) who consistently did spreadsheet-style analyses; if I can track him (or her) down, I will let you know.
I've done a few but I think you may be referring to jerrym. He sent me his work years ago but I don't know if I still have it.
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JerryM
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One more thing -- on the subject of curry/madras powders (I almost exclusively make madras curries), does anyone have a recommendation? I bought the rajah mild madras powder and found it much too pungent. I prefer the smell of the "Old India" brand that's available on Amazon, but not in supermarkets. If anyone has tried rajah, and knows of a brand that has a milder, more pleasant smell, then I'd love to know about it.
Personally, I would spend the time and effort creating your own, personalised spice mix rather than searching for a commercial curry powder. I think it's worth the effort.
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One more thing -- on the subject of curry/madras powders (I almost exclusively make madras curries), does anyone have a recommendation? I bought the rajah mild madras powder and found it much too pungent. I prefer the smell of the "Old India" brand that's available on Amazon, but not in supermarkets. If anyone has tried rajah, and knows of a brand that has a milder, more pleasant smell, then I'd love to know about it.
Personally, I would spend the time and effort creating your own, personalised spice mix rather than searching for a commercial curry powder. I think it's worth the effort.
I make my own spice mix but spice mixes usually include a curry powder. :smile:
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There is a member here (unfortunately I forget whom) who consistently did spreadsheet-style analyses; if I can track him (or her) down, I will let you know. As regards "the missing 5%", I know exactly what is meant by the phrase, but would be completely unable to explain it in a scientific way. All I can say is that most of us, from time to time, get very close to perfection, yet we know that if we were able to visit a BIR of yore, their curries would still be consistently better than our finest efforts. These days, I suspect that most of us can get within 98.5% of what most BIRs churn out these days, but to my mind at least (and I think that Secret Santa, amongst others, will agree with me) what we get these days is not a patch on what we got in the late 60's/early 70's.
** Phil.
Would you be able to describe "the missing 5%" casually? Is it a sourness, a spiciness, etc.? I just fail to see how everyone can mean the same thing given that ingredients and methods vary significantly across restaurants. There have been countless recipes, videos, etc. posted online, many by chefs, so how plausible is it that there is a "secret" they've all kept hidden for so many years? Not a single whistleblower? It sounds quite far-fetched, to be honest. As for curries in the late '60s, I'm in my early twenties, so I can't comment on that, but it seems I've missed something magnificent. :sad:
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I started a spreadsheet to track my BIR results but stopped after I had my first revelatory 9/10 vindaloo that honestly got very close to what I felt was takeaway taste and then did an exact repeat the following week, only to have the all-too-familiar ?alright but not quite?.
The technique / heat level / timing were the only variances although I thought I?d replicated everything.
I?ve resigned myself to understanding that I can make a good curry, but not THE curry.
And unlike my fellow Brits back home, I can?t just go out and get takeaway. Boo!
Robbo
Have you shared the recipe and method on here or is it a top secret? :wink:
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It unsettles me that I see posts from 2005 expressing the same idea of recreating a perfect BIR curry. I applaud the long-term members for their patience, truly.
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I'm not sure what you do or don't know so forgive me if you're already aware of any of this (and I could be wrong). Madras Curry Powder, particularly Rajah brand in the UK, is often a single ingredient in a BIR Chef's personalized 'Mixed Curry Powder' or 'Mix Powder' along with 4 or 5 or even up to 6 or 7 other spice powders. There is a whole section of the forum devoted to the subject. Chef Syed's recently published powder is the first one (as far as we know) to present a dry roasted powder recently and from memory it contains no Madras CP at all. I'm not sure if any use Rajah CP straight out of the bag. I guess some chefs / cooks may do but it isn't commonly discussed here as normal practice.
As far as I'm aware, using Madras Curry Powder does not necessarily make a Madras Curry (or at least not a BIR Madras), although you'd think it should. A Madras can be the name of a dish. eg Chicken Madras, or it can refer to a particular target Chilli heat level for any dish. It is all very confusing and there are no rules.
As for Madras Curry Powder, Rajah is not readily available to me as I'm outside the UK. I use Clive Of India Authentic Curry Powder as a family favorite (not labelled as Madras) but lately I've also been using Mother's Recipe Madras Curry Powder (in a green can) which I find very nice. Another popular green can is The Original Ship Madras Curry Powder. You can also find recipes online to make your own Madras CP including a copy of the "one in the green can". When I researched this I found about 5 or 6 different brands sold in green cans.
Anyway, good luck and simply cook and enjoy whatever it is that you like.
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Would you be able to describe "the missing 5%" casually? Is it a sourness, a spiciness, etc.?
No, it is nothing tangible
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I've always had mixed feelings (no pun intended!) about using a curry powder in a mix - it feels a bit iterative since the curry powder is itself a blend. That's not to say I don't use curry powder - it's great for making a quick curried scrambled egg or curried beans.
Our local restaurants used to use Korma/Madras/Vindaloo as a heat guide, but the last couple of times I ordered one from two different restaurants that notion seems to have changed to be style-based instead (lots of sour, lots of heat).
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I'd have to agree and it takes me back to my initial mental dilemma with BIR mixed powders. However, nearly all are based on using a 'curry powder' and other spices to make a different 'mixed powder'. I simply had to accept it and move forward. I always asked why you couldn't simply make it from scratch and of course, you could. Most don't and so to get the same result we do the same. If you wanted to make a powder that uses a 'curry powder' from individual spices, you'd need to know the ratio of spices in the brand curry powder. They don't give that out.
Of course I'm not getting the same thing anyway because I don't have access to Rajah. Whether this is significant is unknown.
Korma/Madras/Vindaloo as chilli heat indicators?
My daughter's friends recently moved and sampled the local Indian which has dishes in 5 heat levels. Mild, regular, hot, super hot and blistering. They tried all mild the first time and felt they could go hotter. Second time they bought just 1 regular dish and couldn't eat it. Nothing spoils a curry for someone more than too much chilli heat.
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I prefer the smell of the "Old India" brand that's available on Amazon, but not in supermarkets.
Would that be the same curry powder as this chap (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15365.msg135885#msg135885) was asking about ?
** Phil.
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That is the Ship Brand. Old India is on Amazon UK in a plastic bag with white label in mild, medium and hot.
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The thing is that as good a curry as can be cooked at home (by me) using all of the known methods, ingredients and skills learned here, and elsewhere, is still somehow not as good as the one you buy at your favourite restaurant or takeaway. It wasn't in 2005. It wasn't in 2013 when I joined up here, and it still isn't today. Others will disagree but that is my experience. I can make very nice curries. There is still something missing. The shop dishes are just richer, deeper, have a better mouth feel, are more aromatic and are just simply better than home cooked. How or why? We still don't know.
"+1", as I understand the younger persons say ...
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I prefer the smell of the "Old India" brand that's available on Amazon, but not in supermarkets.
Would that be the same curry powder as this chap (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15365.msg135885#msg135885) was asking about ?
** Phil.
This one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Old-India-Powder-Madras-Medium/dp/B00JA8KJLI/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=old+india&qid=1608631203&sr=8-11).
I've decided to pick a powder from East End, TRS or MDH Kitchen King. Has anyone tried any of them?
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I'm satisfied with the madras I make and it's a very straightforward one, similar to chewytikka's. I just want to make sure I'm not missing out on a better curry powder because I much prefer OI to Rajah! I suppose it's a case of "ignorance is bliss". :wink:
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If you are happy with the dish you cook, that's what matters. Kitchen King is not a Madras curry powder. It contains up to 24 different spices. This is not to say don't try it. I have tried several, including MDH, and made my own. It will give your curry a lift for sure.
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I've decided to pick a powder from East End, TRS or MDH Kitchen King. Has anyone tried any of them?
All three are reputable brands, I use individual spices (and some blends) from all of them, but I have no recent experience of their curry powders. Kitchen King, as Livo says, is not a curry power
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I was looking at my spice mix recipe and was going to say I don't use any commercial curry powder - but then I noticed I add a little garam masala.
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I've decided to pick a powder from East End, TRS or MDH Kitchen King. Has anyone tried any of them?
Bith East End and TRS are excellent, CMUK-my local Turkish grocers sell just them!
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I've decided to pick a powder from East End, TRS or MDH Kitchen King. Has anyone tried any of them?
Bith East End and TRS are excellent, CMUK-my local Turkish grocers sell just them!
Which one smells less pungent?
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Thanks for notifying me that Kitchen King does not substitute a curry powder. I saw a lot of spices and assumed it'd work, but if not, I'll try to use it in some other way.
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Kitchen King is a curry powder. It isn't a Madras Curry Powder. There are many different blends of spices used and suited to a particular purpose. Kitchen King can be used but you need to test it to see if it's what you're after.
Check out Bassar or Bombay Bottle Masala or Sri Lankan Jaffna Curry Powder. All curry powders but not Madras Curry Powder.
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Kitchen King is a curry powder.
Well, is it ? Or is it a masala ? To be honest, I would incline to the latter.
** Phil.
FWIW, it contains Coriander seeds, Cumin, Red chillies, Turmeric, Black pepper, Iodised salt, Dried ginger, Mustard, Fennel seeds, Garlic, Cassia, Fenugreek leaves, Black cardamom, Cloves, Nutmeg, Green cardamom, Mace, Asaf
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I've decided to pick a powder from East End, TRS or MDH Kitchen King. Has anyone tried any of them?
Bith East End and TRS are excellent, CMUK-my local Turkish grocers sell just them!
Which one smells less pungent?
We're currently working our way through a big bag of East End, so I can't really compare of the top of my head.But I can say that EE isn't very pungent, so there's a good chance TRS is more pungent.
I guess that was probably a less than definitive answer I'm afraid ;)
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Well, is it ? Or is it a masala ? To be honest, I would incline to the latter.
** Phil.
FWIW, it contains Coriander seeds, Cumin, Red chillies, Turmeric, Black pepper, Iodised salt, Dried ginger, Mustard, Fennel seeds, Garlic, Cassia, Fenugreek leaves, Black cardamom, Cloves, Nutmeg, Green cardamom, Mace, Asaf
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All of the listed spices can be found in a curry and it is in powdered form, hence it is a curry powder. Curry powder is a masala; ie, a blend of spices. A masala is a blend of spices used to make a curry, so if it is in powdered form, it is logically a curry powder. A powdered masala is a curry powder and a curry powder is a masala.
I (very respectfully) disagree. All curry powders are masalas, but not all masalas are curry powders. Garam masala is not a curry powder
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I have a favourite recipe for a prawn / shrimp dish that is certainly a curry and it uses Garam Masala as the flavouring / spice powder. In this recipe it is most certainly a curry powder.
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This is an interesting debate; I'm not sure there *is* a clear definition of curry powder really. I guess it comes down to what ingredients it is intended to be a substitute for, which varies quite significantly by brand and style according to the ingredients lists I've been looking at.
Just to muddy the waters a bit further, certain ingredients can end up being added more than once is some recipes (including mine!). I use cumin at the initial tempering stage, as well as using it in my garam masala. Coriander is another one, with the seeds going into the masala and the leaves/stalks going in at the end of the cook.
I always thought of curry powder vaguely as a balancing ingredient, though that doesn't quite fit either as some don't include ginger and others don't include garlic.
The only conclusion I am prepared to draw is that it is a variable mix powder that isn't a good substitute for garam masala but can be a good alternative to turmeric on its own.
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Tomaito or Tomarto.
All of the listed spices can be found in a curry and it is in powdered form, hence it is a curry powder.
Silica, magnetite, chlorite, glauconite and gypsum.
All of the listed minerals can be found on a typical beach, and it is in fine particulate form, hence it is a sandy beach. Wrong. It is a pile of builder's sand, waiting to be blended with cement and water before being converted into concrete.
** Phil.
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I suppose you could argue that to be a curry powder it should be able to make a curry without the addition of any other spices. So by that definition certain madras curry powders for example would be proper curry powders, whereas some garam masalas would not be as the intention is to use them with other spices.
But you could also argue that if it's a powder and it's used for making curries, even in part, then ipso facto it's also a curry powder. In which case any garam masala would be a curry powder.
It's all a matter of semantics as far as I can tell.