Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Sauce, Curry Base , Curry Gravy Recipes, Secret Curry Base => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on December 13, 2018, 08:26 PM
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As longer-serving residents of this forum will know, I have long been a fan of Kris Dhillon, and regard her The Curry Secret as an excellent introduction to the art of BIR cuisine. Her recipes and methodology are characterised by simplicity, and can produce excellent results without tweaking. I have tried more complex bases, but none seem to offer any significant improvement over hers, so I thought that it might be helpful if I document how I now make her base. The ingredients that she lists are as follows, with my comments in parentheses
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Does kd use oil? How much do you use Phil?
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Oops, sorry, omitted that originally. Now added. Eight tablespoons. Many thanks for pointing it out, Livo.
** Phil.
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;) I wish I'd found her book nearly 30 years ago. I'll give this a go when I do my next base. This is one I haven't yet tried (from memory) along with the Glasgow base. I may have tried it back before I found this forum when I was a paid up member of RCR in around 2011 or 12. I seem to recall there was a whole section devoted to KD recipes, but I also recall at the time being quite overwhelmed by the complexity of the whole thing and what they called the Melting Base.
I don't think I've made a single base more than a couple of times yet and some only once as I made full quantities and used frozen for ages. I've actually thrown base out simply because I've wanted to try a new one and didn't have freezer space. So far though, I'd say my favourite has been the chicken infused version of Chewy's 3 hour base gravy. This just really struck me as a nice curry base.
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;) I wish I'd found her book nearly 30 years ago. I'll give this a go when I do my next base. This is one I haven't yet tried (from memory) along with the Glasgow base.
They're both great bases in my opinion and the Glasgow is currently my standard base. Definitely give both a try. Most current bases are too complicated in my opinion with all but the kitchen sink thrown in but these two are, in comparison, relatively simple and neutral bases.
Kris Dhillon's book was an absolute revelation at the time and really showed the BIR method and specifically the need for a well blended base sauce to get that BIR curry texture. Around the same time I had, I think, Pat Chapman's first book which while good didn't really provide the real technique for the base as his was more of a paste than a sauce (from memory, I might be wrong!).
It's incredible how much our collective knowledge has moved on since then. Alas I'm still looking for the last 5% though ... and firmly believe I'll never now achieve it.
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Alas I'm still looking for the last 5% though ... and firmly believe I'll never now achieve it.
Based purely on personal experience, I think that "the final 5%" will manifest itself in the realisation that you can consistently cook one dish as well as any restaurant or take-away with which you are familiar . When you can say that, you have mastered the technique. All that then remains is to apply that technique consistently but vary the recipe to try to replicate the other dishes that you seek to make.
** Phil.
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Thanks for this explanation Phil.
I will try this method for my next base, as I have previously had no luck with the KD Curry secret base,
It always smelled awful and tasted like boiled sick, so was quickly thrown away.
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Hi would you confirm 120ml of oil is used, I make this eight times 15ml.
Thanks
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Excess oil is removed from the base gravy right at the end of cooking. Phil has already stipulated that amount but you could use more, or less, as you choose, or just use the stated amount.
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Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please and why advise changing recipe.
Thanks
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Thanks for this explanation Phil.
I will try this method for my next base, as I have previously had no luck with the KD Curry secret base,
It always smelled awful and tasted like boiled sick, so was quickly thrown away.
You must be doing something wrong for any base gravy to give a result like that. Base gravy will not in itself be a delicious sauce but it should certainly not have the awful characteristics you describe. Base gravy needs to be edible even if a little bland. Recheck your spice quantities. Excessive use of Turmeric is what leaps to the front of my mind from your description.
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Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please.
Excess oil is often skimmed from the base gravy and after finished dish preparation. Some oil is required to be left in the end curry but the amount is subject to personal preference. This excess oil is often kept, as spiced oil, and used in the prep of actual curry dishes. The repeated process of adding and removing oil builds extra spice depth in the reclaimed oil and hence the dishes cooked.
Do a search for spiced oil. Oil content in base gravy is widely discussed on the forum. You will never be able to reclaim 100% of the oil in the base gravy and you wouldn't want to.
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I don't remove any oil from the base (apart from anything else, a good film of oil on the surface will help to prevent the base from festering when stored at room temperature), but I do remove some oil from the finished dish if it appears excessive.. There certainly needs to be some oil on the finished dish. but not so much as to drown it ...
** Phil.
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I don't remove any oil from the base (apart from anything else, a good film of oil on the surface will help to prevent the base from festering when stored at room temperature), but I do remove some oil from the finished dish if it appears excessive.. There certainly needs to be some oil on the finished dish. but not so much as to drown it ...
** Phil.
Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please and why advise changing recipe.
Thanks
Phil I was hopeful for this response, I read it’s your preferred base gravy. Your advice makes complete sense to me and mirrors my findings. Removing oil from base to add back to base gravy can’t be correct or productive ::) on a brighter note my KD books arrived today.
Thanks for sharing.
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My pleasure, and sorry for the delay in replying
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My pleasure, and sorry for the delay in replying — I had to drive some 700 miles (in total) to attend a funeral, so was away for a few days.
** Phil.
Phil as this is your KD thread I will assume the topic of KD individual spicing for curry is relevant, can I ask your opinion on the subject of spicing please. Would your experience advise following KD
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???
Can't wait to see where this goes.
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For most of my BIR life I have followed Kris Dhillon's advice and used individual spices (although I tend to use rather more than she recommends), and I have never understood the logic of using a so-called "mix powder" that contains "curry powder", itself variable and a virtual unknown. However, when I was in Abu Dhabi I picked up some commercial pre-made masalas (http://www.mehrangroup.com/product/2) by a company called Mehran
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Good answer Phil. There appears to be agreement that the KD base gravy is a good one but the approval of her dish recipes is not quite as solid. I guess a personal choice needs to be made as to whether to proceed down the individual spice route or use blended powders. I see a use for both in different situations.
You raise a point that did my head in when I first started this "hobby". To my mind the inclusion of a "curry powder" as an ingredient to make "curry powder" was just so utterly confusing. It made no sense to me at all. Why not just give the ratio formula of the individual spices to go into the final powder and make it? It's like using a word in the definition of that same word. I struggled to understand it but eventually realised that it just didn't really matter. I had to ignore my inner brain squirming around in discomfort and accept that this is just the way BIR is done. It's the end result that matters. The food on the plate.
I regularly research and experiment with masala blends, mixed powders and pastes. I've recently found 2 different formula for Madras Curry Powder that I will try out very soon. One in particular. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24CfBr5t1Fs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24CfBr5t1Fs) It is claimed by the presenter to be identical to the brand commonly found in "the green can", This could be one of at least 5 different labels packaged in green cans being, Ship, Camel, Indian Classic, Kitchen Xpress or Mother's Recipe. Probably Mother's Recipe but the mystery has me hooked. I've tried some proprietary masalas that are terrible and others that are amazingly good.
To put the discussion back on topic, I read this thread from late 2005 to early 2008 on the KD Base Gravy. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=579.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=579.0). I can see that you have tweaked her recipe only very slightly Phil. I'm puzzled by reply number 8, page 1, where out of nowhere comes the question of how long you can keep spice oil. There is no prior mention of reclaiming spice oil from this base gravy.
This short 1 page thread from 2006 gives a chefs opinion (Spanish Indian Restaurant) of the ingredient ratios in the KD base. It is quickly derailed though into a discussion about Lemon Juice in CTM and Mustard seeds in Madras. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=695.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=695.0). The key points made by the chef was not enough tomato and no seasoning as in Garam Masala. Once you start adding more onion, as he also suggested, you just get into a larger quantity overall which the OP has covered.
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A good read Livo, it seems extra/hot
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Just to clarify. There is no spiced oil in my base, nor do I believe that there should be
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But it
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Hi would you confirm 120ml of oil is used, I make this eight times 15ml.
Thanks
Not necessarily.
US 8 Tbsp = 118.3 ml
UK 8 Tbsp = 142.1 ml
AUS 8 Tbsp = 160 ml
This question is why I, for a reason, made the comment I did about the process of removing "Excess oil", if and when required. I'm in Australia and could have excess while a US reader, and yourself, could have insufficient or the correct amount depending on KD's original recipe conversion factors.
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US 8 Tbsp = 118.3 ml
UK 8 Tbsp = 142.1 ml
AUS 8 Tbsp = 160 ml
I would (very respectfully) disagree with the first two. When measuring one tablespoon of oil, even if using a calibrated measure, the degree of uncertainty makes a precision of 0.1 ml impossible to achieve. I would very much doubt whether a precision of even 1ml is achievable. Therefore I would express the first two as "about 120 ml" and "about 140 ml" respectively
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A good correction Phil. 120ml give or take is the average.
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Incidentally, intrigued to learn that a UK tablespoon is not 15 ml as I had previously (and wrongly) assumed. I measured my "Vogue" tablespoon measuring spoon using a Volac B.S. 604 measuring cylinder, (standardised at 20C, the temperature of my kitchen) with units of 0.5 ml at a 2 mm vertical separation. Being careful not to disturb the meniscus, I transferred the contents (which were cold tap water) of my measuring spoon into the measuring cylinder using a pipette, To the best of my judgement, the cylinder indicated 16
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Ok :D let
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I rarely measure or time things (microwave rice being an exception to the latter) and think in terms of teaspoons, tablespoons and so on rather than these modern metric thingies, but on cooking a lamb karahi today, using MDH Karahi Gosht masala, I confess that I weighed the lamb, the onions and the masala. The reason was that this was the first time for some time that I had used MDH KGM, and I wanted to be sure that I knew my starting point if I wanted to repeat (or modify) the dish in the future. For the record, the pack recipe is in terms of 500 gm lamb; I had 800, so rounded everything up by a factor of 8/5 (approx); they recommended 10
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I agree with all of this. Some aspects of Indian cookery are as far removed from precision as any style can be.
It would be difficult to remove the full contents of any measure of oil and I'm in no way suggesting you should, or even can, use 118.3 ml. Completely unnecessary and ridiculous. By its own physical property of coating surfaces you will obviously end up with less. My point was to illustrate a 25 - 30% variation either way depending on locally available utensils. This is not insignificant and the reasoning behind my earlier post about excess oil removal, following the questioning of the already correctly provided amount. This questioning appeared to me to be about the level of oil more so than the actual measured volume and so my post was not "random". Either that or someone wanted a sticker for getting the multiplication of 8 X 15 correct. ;D.
Levels of base oil has been widely discussed. So too has spiced oil. Different subjects.
To again bring it back to topic, I would go so far as to say that with only 2 spices in such low quantities, the KD base is very open to and tolerant of considerable inexact measurement. At completion, and subject to individual preference, some excess (but not spiced) oil could be removed. This alone is essentially all I said in the first place. ::)
Off topic comment. While irrelevant in BIR, the variation in regional cup and spoon measures is critical to consider in fine bakery and pastries.
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I would go so far as to say that with only 2 spices in such low quantities, the KD base is very open to and tolerant of considerable inexact measurement. At completion, and subject to individual preference, some excess (but not spiced) oil could be removed.
I'm not certain that it (the removal of excess oil, that is) would be possible, at least not using my revised methodology, since the end-point of day 1 is the blitzing, after which the base will be homogenised if not emulsified. On day 2 I bring it back to the boil (gently !) "until the oil comes out", but if I were to remove the oil at this stage there would be no oil layer to stop the base from festering ...
** Phil.
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I'm not saying it has to be done, or even can Phil. You would know better than I with this particular base gravy. I like oil and I'm not afraid of it as are some. I eat heaps of fatty foods and my fasting lipids have never been cause for concern. As I said very early, I'm yet to make this base (as far as I recall). I'm fairly sure, however, that if extra oil were present (160 ml for example) and it was cooked to separation point, as is required in some base recipes, then oil could possibly be removed as the last step, if so desired. Mind you I had all sorts of trouble obtaining oil separation with the Saffron base and it was meant to happen by cooking further after blitzing. In some base recipes and subsequent discussion, oil separation is the indicator of completion.
When actually read, my original comment about oil was in response to CarpCarp appearing to question the "level of oiliness" in the base after you had already provided the quantitative answer to my initial question earlier. What was CarpCarp actually asking? My comment was a simple statement of what is done with some bases in general. Not specific to this recipe.
Here we are 3 pages later trying to explain the 2 sentences I wrote. A simple statement of what could be done if CarpCarp (in his / her very 1st post on the forum) had any concern about your stated reaffirmation of KD's originally printed amount of oil.
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A good correction Phil. 120ml give or take is the average.
Actually, the average of 118, 142 and 160 is precisely 140. No smiley sticker for that calculation CarpCarp. :( Plus, if the KD book, Phil and you use a UK measuring spoon the correct amount used is also 140 ml.
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Phil questions please, did you achieve good results with your lamb karahi today. I
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Not yet eaten the lamb, CC, other than to test it for softness. I cooked it in a large round cast-iron casserole (Le Creuset or similar), starting by softening the onions until they were transparent, then adding the masala, stirring, mixing and cooking that with the onions until I judged that it was ready, then added the lamb and stirred and lifted it until all was evenly coated. I then cooked it on a low heat with the lid on, stirring occasionally (after removing the lid !) and finally turned it off while I went off to the hotel. When I got home circa 23:00 I checked that it was done (by eating one piece). I noticed that the initial strongly-spiced and "edgy" flavour has now gone and I am left with a much milder spicing, so I will probably use it to make a more conventional curry (with g/g paste, fresh spices and base) when I am ready to eat it. Not yet ready to try it today
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If the KD book, Phil and you use a UK measuring spoon the correct amount used is also 140 ml.
I have three editions of The Curry Secret, dated 1996, 2008 & 2011, and although over time Kris moves from an imperial system of weights and measures to a metric system (giving the other system in parentheses), at no point does she gloss "one tablespoon" or attempt to express it in more formal units. However, the 2011 edition (The New Curry Secret) has a short chapter on weights and measures, and there she glosses one tablespoon as 15ml (UK), 14.8ml (USA) and 20ml (Oz). She also writes "all spoon measurements are slightly rounded", which is also how I measure such things.
** Phil.
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Can't wait to see where this goes.
I'm yet to make this base (as far as I recall).
Oh, Boy!
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Phil thank you for the detailed explanation, the lamb Kharhi sounds truly delicious and I hope it is just as tasty as you have detailed. I
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I really don't think you can go wrong by starting with her chicken curry / Madras / Vindaloo (all based on the same recipe)
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Ouch! :-X
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Thank you Phil for the kind recommendation and link you provided, I will start with the basic Curry sauce and your interpretation. Over time I made Most of the recommendations for gravy on this forum including alternative forum favourites. KD
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I had to check my measuring spoons after reading this thread yesterday and whether it is to make the maths simple or not, they are labelled as
1 tbl - 15ml
1 dst - 10ml
1 tsp - 5ml
1/2 tsp - 2.5ml.
Since 'wet' ingredients usually have a meniscus and always leave a coating behind, I have never been too scientific about exact measuring, especially if 'heaped' is used to describe some of the dry spices in the recipe and it also depends on the cooking temp and duration as well.
However, may I ask about the use of a pressure cooker? My parents had one in the mid/late 70's and my lasting memory of them is being shooed away into another room whilst they tried to remove the contents. It was not unlike an episode of Danger UXB if you ever watched it. So having never used one, I presume it merely cooks quicker without losing any moisture? Would a large pan with secure lid and a sprinkle (scientific quantity ;) ) more water do the same job but take a lot longer?
Thanks in Advance.
BAJ
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Hi, you will be just fine please don
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Phil I hope you don
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Hi CarpCarp,
Maybe my post didn't come across too clearly as I was trying to point out that scientific measurements were not practical.
My question about the pressure cooker was probably better stated as "I only have a bad experience from childhood, can I use a normal pan and add a little more water to compensate for evaporation during cooking?".
Thanks,
BAJ
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Sounds good to me, I used a large stainless pot for years. Important to be a thicker bottom pot to prevent burning sticking. Thanks
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However, may I ask about the use of a pressure cooker? My parents had one in the mid/late 70's and my lasting memory of them is being shooed away into another room whilst they tried to remove the contents. It was not unlike an episode of Danger UXB if you ever watched it. So having never used one, I presume it merely cooks quicker without losing any moisture? Would a large pan with secure lid and a sprinkle (scientific quantity ;) ) more water do the same job but take a lot longer?
First of all, in my opinion modern pressure cookers are very safe when used correctly
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I wasn't sure if the benefit from cooking at a faster rate was to keep flavour in, which it probably does as there can't be any loss through evaporation. I also wasn't sure if this was something used in BIR kitchens to accelerate the rate ingredients were available for orders.
I am cooking some beef on a very slow heat at the moment and will use some base I have left over from a previous member's recipe to try a bhuna but I am running out of base and almost out of onions, I have been browsing the last couple of days for a new base and decided to give this a go.
Thank you for clearing up my concerns.
BAJ
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Phil I hope you don
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I am cooking some beef on a very slow heat at the moment and will use some base I have left over from a previous member's recipe to try a bhuna but I am running out of base and almost out of onions, I have been browsing the last couple of days for a new base and decided to give this a go.
I don't have any experience of using beef in a curry, but for me a bhuna should need little if any base, Please see my "Baseless bhuna (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14969.msg131046)" post for my thoughts on this subject.
** Phil.
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I don't have any experience of using beef in a curry, but for me a bhuna should need little if any base, Please see my "Baseless bhuna (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14969.msg131046)" post for my thoughts on this subject.
** Phil.
Haha, indeed, I am almost base less and having used Mutton, Lamb, Pork (yeah I know) and Beef in the past, having a little raw diced Beef left over, I thought since it was Christmas, I would do the right thing and use up the leftovers. I can't say yet that it is going to be any good but "waste not, want not" and I thought worthy of a try. I will be finished in a few hours, try to remember to take a photo or two and if it is any good, I will post them, if not, I am glad to see we don't have a "Hall of Shame" as I would probably have to post the pic there. :-\
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Are you cooking in a commercial kitchen CarpCarp? or do you have an industrial cooktop at home?
Using a pressure cooker for base gravy is primarily about the speed of cooking (with the possible advantage of probably less mess). A 3 hour boiled pot base can be done in 1 hour as Chewy Tikka's examples illustrate very effectively. The same basic ingredients and the time taken is significantly reduced. There should be very little discernible difference in the finished base gravy.
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Just about to bang out another batch of base tonight, I
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Crikey, you must make way more curries than I
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Ha! Yes Phil I do a lot of cooking at home with a large family, some of my recent currys inclusive of large amounts of oil are bulk, whole Chicken used as described in topics. So yes I
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You're right Phil, this does make a great base. Haven't made it in a fair while so did a half batch this afternoon using a pressure cooker. Don't know why I moved on to other bases, but I guess we like to try other recommendations. However, the KD does stand up there alongside the others IMHP.
Only cooked the onion mix for 30mins but it came out just fine. When the base was completed I could have ate it as a very mild curry and I don't think I'd alter it much to take it up to a madras or vindaloo. Perhaps just stick to the book.
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Thanks for the confirmation of my thoughts on this, Steve, and delighted that you enjoyed the Madras you made with the KD base.
** Phil.