Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on November 30, 2014, 11:05 PM
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We know there is no such thing.
Occasionally each of us will come across something that was discounted or not even considered Important - only to find it hits us as a full on oversight.
On examples the biggest for me was salt.
For a while now I've been tasting rsholme123 curries.
In comparing what we do one thing that stands out is - sugar.
I was a complete disbeliever. I dont use it full stop. I do know it is called in many recipes (CA's jumping out for me).
However since making chewy's red CTM I could not believe the difference 1 tsp makes (many makes side by side with and without sugar). I now include as STD in CTM.
Even more of a shock is that rsholme123 uses in madras. I'm reluctantly having to adjust my blinkers on sugar.
Would be interesting to hear of any other similar.
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Hi Jerry, you're up late... Good man.
Sugar... It really is a tricky one for me to justify in curries, but it does work for me, whether it be white sugar, mango chutney, jaggery etc.
It does seem like a 'cheat', a 'cop out', a 'fudge' though, and I'm struggling somewhat with the 'BIR morality' of it. In all the videos I've seen of TA chefs cooking curries, I don't think I can remember sugar being added (CTM/Korma etc being the exception).
Is the natural balance of sweetness supposed to be obtained by the skilful caramelisation/Maillard of ingredients (notably the base gravy pre-prep, and the cooking of base gravy in the pan fry)?
In good TA/Restaurant curries I've had, I don't immediately think 'this flavour isn't balanced enough and needs more sweetness'. So, where is this gap being filled from?
Is it a gap only for my tastebuds, i.e. I may require a little extra sweetness, or is it technique or ingredients the BIRs (and more experienced ameuters than I) are using?
All that being said, I know that sugar is used readily (and authentically) in Asian cuisines (e.g. Thai,Korean) to achieve balance of flavours... Sweet vs bitter vs sour vs hot vs umami (sic), so from that perspective I feel a little less guilty of adding a tsp.
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In all the videos I've seen of TA chefs cooking curries, I don't think I can remember sugar being added (CTM/Korma etc being the exception).
Is the natural balance of sweetness supposed to be obtained by the skilful caramelisation/Maillard of ingredients (notably the base gravy pre-prep, and the cooking of base gravy in the pan fry)?
That's it exactly. If you find you need to add sugar to a savoury curry it's because you haven't cooked the base properly to bring out the natural sweetness of the onions.
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SecretSanta, thanks for the reply. When you refer to cooking the base, are you referring to the base gravy preparation or the final dish fry, or both?
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Just the cooking of the onions for the base sauce. They have to be boiled for long enough to bring out the natural sweetness. Adding acidic ingredients, like tomatoes, kills this reaction to some extent so some bases never achieve the sweetness or achieve a much reduced sweetness as a consequence.
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Sugar is used in a number of other curries also. About half a chef spoon fall in a patia and about a tablespoon full in a Dansak.
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Jerry this is an interesting post and one that got me thinking about other ways of sweetening curries. The coconut in CTM and Korma adds sweetness. That Scottish invention, the Chasni, is a very sweet curry uses tomato ketchup, mango chutney, cream and cream of tomato soup, all of which add sweetness. Indeed it could be the BIR equivalent of the deep fried Mars Bar! The sweet of the sweet and sour Pathia is provided by mango chutney as well as sugar in my recipe. A quick look through my Taz recipes finds sugar in Jalfrezi, Ceylon, Bhuna, Dhansak, Rogan Josh so maybe I am as guilty as others in my use of sugar!
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Treacle ever used for sweetening in Indian as it is in chinese?
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I don't find I need to add sugar as my base is already sweet enough for most standard recipes. I normally use CTs. I recently did JBs base and although this seemed a little less sweet (could've been curried out after an afternoon in the kitchen!) the results were the same.
I add sugar to dansak to balance the pineapple juice and in a couple of thing use mango chutney (more sweet and sour) than to sweeten.
But I make a lot of Thai dishes and green curry without raw brown sugar is unthinkable.
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Thought provoking stuff.
Would these other sweeteners' do the same magic. From what's been said I would list in no order
1) jaggory, sugar, brown sugar
2) Treacle,syrup,honey
3) Mango chutney, mango, pineapple, coconut, raisin
4) Tom ketchup
5) cream
I should clarify that my observation of this step improvement comes from side by side comparison of the same base or any base and the same dish frying ie only the 1 variable being changed ie sugar added which improves what you already have so to speak.
I'm not a fan of sugar for sure and I guess I'll slowly try it out in more dishes (only CTM so far for my own cooking)
One thing I did just come across this weak from BIR was use of fresh coconut in CTM. It really worked well. Real nice sweetness.
At the same time making my conundrum even more difficult - is it just a natural craving for sugar or is something more chemically based going on.
The other fascination being which of these contenders gives the best result or do they all count the same just being a different form of sugar.
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I have to agree with SS, I used to add sugar to my Madras, now I don't, why, because I now find my base is cooked correctly, releasing all the natural sweetness :)
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Madrasandy
Im in the same boat and was a disbelieved.
Try a side by side then decide.
Think about the quality of my base. Do I disagree with SS - certainly not.
Do I have to force my blinkers off sometimes - yes
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Hi Jerry,
The four elements to seasoning food in any dish are as follows.
Sweet
Sour
Salt
Spice
Staple (being your main ingredient)
The above should ALL be considered when cooking a dish even if you choose to omit any...
Hope this helps
Rgds,
Bob
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The four elements to seasoning food in any dish are as follows.
Sweet
Sour
Salt
Spice
Staple (being your main ingredient)
Would you not also include "umami", Bob ?
** Phil.
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Umami has always been debatable....
A quote from Wikipedia...
"Scientists have debated whether umami was a basic taste since Kikunae Ikeda first proposed its existence in 1908.[7] In 1985, the term umami was recognized as the scientific term to describe the taste of glutamates and nucleotides at the first Umami International Symposium in Hawaii.[8] Umami represents the taste of the amino acid L-glutamate and 5
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Umami aside ("just because you don't believe in Father Christmas doesn't mean that he doesn't exist !"). one thing that I regularly notice about commercial food (Fray Bentos steak-and-kidney pies, Waitrose beef-and-pearl-barley, ...) is that it contains detectable (some might say "excessive") levels of sweetness/sugar content, whereas the home-made equivalent rarely if ever does. Would this also be your experience, Bob ?
** Phil.
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976bar,
Sir 6 th sense for sure.
Not for this topic but for vindaloo which I'm racking my brains on at the moment.
Had sort of come to the conclusion that trial and error was not going to deliver on this dish and I needed to step back and apply some logic.
Many thanks will have a go at fitting ingredients to the seasoning model
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hi jerry try this recipe http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,8159.msg71935.html#msg71935 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,8159.msg71935.html#msg71935) forgot to say add half tsp of salt in the original recipe with the mix powder and chilli powder
regards
gary
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Parker21,
I'm convinced I need to use some form of chilli sauce "green" chilli based.
I'm after what's not made anymore. Old style I guess most would call. I call it not just a hot madras.
I'm plodding along on it going on these thoughts:
1) the chef at the time gave us some very small green chilli saying that was how he made the dish. I now know these as birds eye. Secret Santa has got me to change this to finger chilli.
2) I use scotch bonnet for the lip burn
3) am using sultana for sugar as this seems to give closest result
The trouble is I just can't put my finger on what's missing. It may even be as simple as you can't reproduce with a modern base.
I feel i should in time be able to get closer just by gradually tweaking qty's.
The one thing I've yet to try is adding in some Bhuna onion. I think someone suggested it in the no 3 vindaloo post
Best wishes
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My Balti always get's a little white sugar (1 level tsp for 3 or 4 curries)and it makes a big difference.
Dried fenugreek leaves in small amounts are another ingredient that gives an authentic BIR taste/smell