Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: littlechilie on November 02, 2014, 11:58 AM
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Hi,
I have recently been cooking my base sauce with nothing more than Onions,Turmeric and Salt, this has been producing the closest results I have ever had to bir.
This leaves me to believe there is no need for oil in my gravy combination, as Turmeric,salt and Onions don't require oil to cook them, I have been sieving my base as suggested by Chewy for the smooth finish
The resulting base is a yellow smooth Onion gravy that works very well for me.
What are people's experience, advantages or disadvantages of Oil in base gravy please, also why are we adding all the other products, vegetables or spice?
Looking forwards to any input.
Thanks.
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Different restaurants will add different ingredients to there base to add there own signature to their gravy.
Lc have you tried your base (onions turmeric salt) with only one extra of the usual suspect ingredients added, i.e onions turmeric salt cumin, or onions turmeric salt green pepper. That way you can see what individual ingredients add to the base
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Hi,
Yep that's a fair point there Andy, and I have tried this,but am finding the small amount of pepper makes no discernible difference in the final dish, It would be more beneficial for me to add a pice of chopped pepper in at the fry stage.
If you follow my point, then at the fry stage the flavour is produce and I would taste the Pepper but the gravy is just gravy. :)
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Im not sure I completely agree there lc, Ive made jb base with no peppers and it is not as good as when made with IMO
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Hi Andy,
Now thats interesting, ok now are you finding the base tastes not as good as usual or different? or are u actually noticing the lack of the pepper in the curry stage or is it affecting the finished dish?
Thanks.
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Just thought that the base lacked a bit in depth of flavour when made without peppers. How noticeable was this in the final curry? cant really say without doing a side by side comparison which I really don't have the time and inclination to do .
My latest jb base batch is made to spec and I am enjoying fantastic results
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Just onions cooked and blended as a base is a good method for home cooks
After all a base is only a method of getting onions in and quenching the spices cooking and a convenient habit ;D
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Despite the fact that I make a ridiculously complicated gravy, I agree totally with N.O. Years ago I had been pestering a local chef for his gravy recipe for months and eventually he got exasperated: "100 time you ask me and 100 times I say onions, cabbage, spices and oil. That's it!"
I now realize that a good chef can make a good curry with a simple onion gravy. The reason I persist with my complicated gravy is more to do with superstition - it works so I don't want to change it.
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My new strategy in BIR , simplicity that is if it's simple there is less room for error and more room for expansion ;D
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Are we talking base with no tomatoes here guys?
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from my recent stint helping out in a BIR kitchen the Pakistani chef told me that the oil is essential, the more the better, up to 10 litres of oil is used in the base ("you don't have to eat it!" - scooped off and put in the bin after the oil seperates during main-dish cooking), and no water. It's just onions, spices, salt, oil, yoghurt and a touch a tomato puree for colour (as the white tower stuff "is tasteless") and "if your gravy isn't right, your curries won't be right". and when they were cooking the staff curry (usually chana chaat) i was told that it was "the same ingredients, just cooked in a different way".
unfortunately i never found out exactly what those spices (apart from chilli powder and cumin seeds) were and i was always either there when the gravy was getting started or blended at the end, they were a bit evasive when it came to the gravy, everything else they were very open about with recipes, the naans, pakoras, methods etc
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also when making the curries themselves, the base tasted just like a normal curry sauce itself, but a mild version, so when making a madras for example they'd use a ladle of (oily) base to start off, followed by garlic & ginger paste (50/50 ratio), freshly chopped coriander, methi leaves, chilli powder, meat or vegetables, any accompaniments like sliced peppers etc, then a couple of ladles more base, cook through, scoop the oil off the top into the bin and serve. korma was the same base, but with st ivel uht cream, almond powder, sugar and coconut block
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Hi
Garp yes I'm using no tomatoes now as it's added at the start of dish.
Sp
thanks for your kind info, I have never eaten an oily korma nor would I want to! I just couldn't imagine the base you describe working with the oil content so high.
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Here is a Vindaloo cooked tonight, using a no oil basic Onion base approach! IMO every bit as tasty as any good quality BIR. ;)
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Some photos from my time in the restaurant kitchen...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1427861947496092.1073741834.100008169000315&type=1&l=6504f71798 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1427861947496092.1073741834.100008169000315&type=1&l=6504f71798)
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Im not sure I completely agree there lc, Ive made jb base with no peppers and it is not as good as when made with IMO
I did the same
I omitted red pepper when I had none in the house, and the base was not as good
It's a very carefully balanced recipe
You don't realise this until you start changing things
I've probably ruined many bases by just a wrong quantity or missing a little something
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Some photos from my time in the restaurant kitchen...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1427861947496092.1073741834.100008169000315&type=1&l=6504f71798 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1427861947496092.1073741834.100008169000315&type=1&l=6504f71798)
Nice post sp.
ELW
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Hi littlechillie
do you find you get a lot of water seeping out of the curry on to the plate? I Find it happens in a normal base if I do not cook the base until the oil rises to the top therefore I would expect it to be worse using a no oil base?
barry
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Thanks, I'm adding more photos at the moment and have a video or two to upload as well
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Tomato in the gravy - I'm not a fan. But then I prefer a Bangladeshi old-style curry such as you got in the London area in the 1980s (and often still do in Brick Lane and South London.) The high tomato content is more of a Pakistani / Punjabi thing. Glasgow curries tend to have a lot of tomato in the base, for instance. But I find it too sharp. All a matter of taste of course.
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Great pics SP - they really made you welcome. Nice work.
Tim
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I cook predominately traditional Indian bases & masalas and the occasional BIR style base. I really cannot envisage a base / masala made without oil as it is an essential vehicle for the whole and dried spices. For example an Indian chef told me many years ago to always add turmeric to oil before the aromatics i.e. ginger / garlic paste. I usually now add turmeric (and salt - browns onions much faster) to the oil during the onion frying stage. I have included this video link for the preparation of a traditional yellow Indian gravy, which is particually interesting as the chef admits the mistake of adding turmeric too late. The final gravy is excellent by the way and works great in many Korma and South Indian style dishes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_59BTa60gw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_59BTa60gw)
Excellent thread LC :)
Chrisnw
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Photo #28 I an interesting one!!! BIR in a familiar purple label. There's your 5%??? ;D
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Tomato in the gravy - I'm not a fan. But then I prefer a Bangladeshi old-style curry such as you got in the London area in the 1980s (and often still do in Brick Lane and South London.) The high tomato content is more of a Pakistani / Punjabi thing. Glasgow curries tend to have a lot of tomato in the base, for instance. But I find it too sharp. All a matter of taste of course.
Very true, many traditional Pakistani / Punjabi curries use a concentrated onion / tomato masala which gives a very distinctive taste and texture. However, the sharp taste of the tomato should disappear though with proper cooking, I think this principle also applies to BIR curries.
Chrisnw
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pataks tandoori and tikka pastes? they use both tandoori paste and tikka paste plus yoghurt for marinading the lamb tikka before it gets cooked in the tandoor. chicken tikka suprisingly is done with the tikka marinade shown in the other photos - tandoori masala powder and yoghurt, rather than the pataks tikka paste
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Nice pics, sp. What part of the animal is that big bit of lamb from?
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i think they're lamb tenderloins? i didn't ask to be honest! boneless, they came in a box, individually wrapped in plastic, important to be cut in the same size as beef medallions, too small and they shrink too much, used for tikka on the skewers and for the pre-cook. 8 or 9 pieces per curry, depending on the size
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pataks tandoori and tikka pastes? they use both tandoori paste and tikka paste plus yoghurt for marinading the lamb tikka before it gets cooked in the tandoor. chicken tikka suprisingly is done with the tikka marinade shown in the other photos - tandoori masala powder and yoghurt, rather than the pataks tikka paste
Pataks yet again. Here is a link to the question I asked back a few months ago about the Mild Curry Paste being used in bases.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13264.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13264.0.html)
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i think they're lamb tenderloins? i didn't ask to be honest! boneless, they came in a box, individually wrapped in plastic, important to be cut in the same size as beef medallions, too small and they shrink too much, used for tikka on the skewers and for the pre-cook. 8 or 9 pieces per curry, depending on the size
The best and most costly part of the animal.
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my lamb phall being cooked.... listen carefully to what the chef says (whilst you try to ignore my voice ;) :-X)... and notice the consistency and oilyness of the base...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1489731591309127&l=7479535007867726979 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1489731591309127&l=7479535007867726979) (part 1/2)
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1489737427975210&l=6372943035861149781 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1489737427975210&l=6372943035861149781) (part 2/2)
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Uri Geller has been playing with the chef's spoon.
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Hi littlechillie
do you find you get a lot of water seeping out of the curry on to the plate? I Find it happens in a normal base if I do not cook the base until the oil rises to the top therefore I would expect it to be worse using a no oil base?
barry
Hi,
No Im getting little to none water seeping as most of the stock is from the onions juice, Sp, great photos an your Link but I'm still not buying in to all that oil ;)
Some great replies coming back here, it's looking like oil in base is the majority vote.
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Pretty obvious conclusion to this LC
But if this base works for you and your happier with a healthier option, Why Not. ;)
I do need oil in my Garabi ;D
cheers Chewy
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When starting a curry oil is 1st put in the pan then cooking begins, so how can it matter whether there is oil in the base or not?
Does anyone have any good reason for the "must have oil in base"?
I believe its all in the mind and what pleases the eye when the important part is the end result
;D
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Hi,
NOx I think the gentleman on this video is saying exactly the same thing, there is a lot of oil added ad fring stage so it's not required in the base, that is unless you r preference is for that way.
But this video illustrates that It's not unusual for bir establishments to not use oil in there base, I bet for this one guy following this process there is another 2000 or more out there doing the same.
Just to throw this link out here, it's a no oil Onion only base that apparently serves it's customers very well.
Not my Dad's!
Not exactly new, but I've not seen this linked before, I found it quite interesting:
basic curry sauce dad 0001 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRRfgbK20S4#)
Gary
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I think the oil gets incorporated into the sauce - emulsified I guess. We use a lot of oil in our gravy, but only a little of it sits on top, so it must be in there somewhere. How much of it splits back out when you cook in the pan I have no idea.
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Many spices (especially turmeric and chili) are predominately oil soluble, therefore omitting oil will not only affect the final result (taste) but also the now well publicised health benefits. For example cooking tomatoes in oil helps to release lycopene from the tomato cells as Lycopene is fat soluble. Lycopene is a powerful antioxidant and believed to ward against many common types of cancer.
Chrisnw
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Many spices (especially turmeric and chili) are predominately oil soluble, therefore omitting oil will not only affect the final result (taste) but also the now well publicised health benefits. For example cooking tomatoes in oil helps to release lycopene from the tomato cells as Lycopene is fat soluble. Lycopene is a powerful antioxidant and believed to ward against many common types of cancer.
Agree with the above
But does it matter as long as you start the final curry with oil then add any spices or base with or without oil ?
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Agree with the above
But does it matter as long as you start the final curry with oil then add any spices or base with or without oil ?
I would say, a lot depends on the final curry, quality of ingredients and the cooking method (plus skill level too). Many BIR curries I have been served with over the years seem to be mostly base with very little spice (and taste!).
Chrisnw
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That's true. A restaurant owner I knew used to moan about his chef using too much spice. It was a time when a lot of costs were rocketing. I used to tease him that if he used any less spice he might as well reopen as a Chinese takeaway. During the 6 months that I worked there (Redhill) the quality and flavour level of the cooking dropped considerably. When I went back some time later, he had sacked the chef and replaced him with one of his family. The food was not very good and was available on buffet only. A year after that his email account starting bouncing and when I asked after him, I was told he had done a runner back to Pakistan. Last time I saw the place, the tables had been ripped out and it was a takeaway selling chicken in a bucket :(
So don't skimp on the spices and oil folks.
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Littlechilli
Top notch post
Is the idea to make good the No oil in base by using more at dish frying or solely a means of reducing the amount of oil.
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Hi JerryM, im using 2x chef spoon of oil at fry stage, but it's just realy an experiment I'm trying and a way of seeking opinion.
But the Vindaloo I made and ate last nice was very good indeed and lost nothing in aroma taste or flavour from cooking base without oil.
When I get time will will make a reverse base and use 1liter of oil to 1ltr of water and do a direct comparison on taste and aroma of finished dish.
I will update this post when I get the chance. :)
Thanks for the interest.
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Littlechilli
Presume your 2 chef is 4 tbsp. Would need to check but I think I leave something like 10 to 15 ml of oil in the base which would give approx 5 tbsp total for me.
I've been amazed how stubborn oil is in taking on flavour. suggests a No oil base would work.
Also been amazed how much more difficult it is to get best results in the final dish from a basic base (I've given up)
I put oil in the base so that I can reclaim it to dish fry. I guess if you don't reclaim then why not leave the oil out.
For info I find the opposite does not work for me ie the taz base. It does work for others so water is muddy. I need the 4 tbsp at dish fry to enable the fry and produce BIR. How important the 5 th tbsp from the base is I really don't know.
Quite a post for sure.
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This is a great thread and an interesting one to follow. I don't think there is any dispute that some oil is essential in the process. Where in the process, is obviously the main question here and secondly, how much of it is required? My wife is always banging on about oil in food, so I try to keep to the bare minimum.
I was astonished at the video of the chef spooning oil into a lined bin, I assume for disposal. I would think that a major factor here would be the unnecessary cost of this practice. He must have a reason for using so much in the first place, otherwise why would you throw money away like that. Cooking oil is not a cheap ingredient.
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in the time i was there (one evening per week over a 3 month period) i watched them make a lot of dishes of all different types, the fryer, which holds 30 litres of oil, was very occasionally used for a spoonful of oil to start a dish off if the base wasn't as oily as usual. i watched them pour in from big drums of new fresh vegetable oil straight into the pre-cook (lamb, chicken, vegetables etc) so it wasn't reclaimed oil they were using for that. last year before i got into the restaurant kitchen itself i got given a few tupperware boxes full of the old fryer oil so i could try it !! it smelt nice, but made no discernable difference to anything i cooked, make of that what you may! :-\
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i must stress that my hands-on experiences are only of one pakistani-run scottish BIR, and i've found they use similar methods to the glasgow recipes (re indian takeaway recipe book by alex wilkie aka bb1 aka bigboaby aka fred45) from a while back, if not the same ingredients for everything. the most important is that, like the glasgow recipes, the base is a finished sauce of a thicker consistency and no mix powder is used in the final dishes. unfortunately they don't use the same ingredients, as i never once saw turmeric either being used or stocked, and when i enquired about garam masala (do they make it or buy it in) they don't use a premix, they just use the spices seperately (cassia bark, black cardamom, cumin seeds, salt)
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this video illustrates that It's not unusual for bir establishments to not use oil in there base, I bet for this one guy following this process there is another 2000 or more out there doing the same....basic curry sauce dad 0001
I watched a couple of the videos of "dad 0001" and I don't think he's telling anything like the full story. The base sauce video cuts quite early on. I bet he adds loads of oil later on.
As Bertie Bassett commented on you tube (aka alex wilkie, bb1, bigboaby and fred45) in the pilau rice recipe he said initially that he didn't use colour but he's seen adding it later on. Hardly a reliable witness.
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Great info SP. From a regional point of view - invaluable. As time goes, by with members experiences, BIR is very much a regional thing with some common denomenators. For some it will press all the right buttons and provide curry nirvanah. For others an interesting read and an insight into the regional style. All great info though and another piece of the huge jigsaw that is BIR ;)
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George, I'm a devout conspiracy theorist myself. Suspicion is my faith. I don't trust him either.
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Evening all,
Had a little time to do a comparison base today, must say I'm liking the look and smell of the 50/50 oil base a lot better than the no oil.
But as we all know it will come down to the finished dishes but as far as smell and flavour go the oily base wins hands down.
Photos below.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13404.msg112874/topicseen.html#new (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13404.msg112874/topicseen.html#new)
Thanks.
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Hi LC
Have you a recipe for your no oil base? I'm interested in trying it?
Cheers
Ed