Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on November 02, 2014, 10:35 AM
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the h4ppy-chris naan post has raised my game beyond expectation. i still have a fight with the amount of sugar but take it out and the magic is lost.
thing is though - i had some naan bread out at very posh restaurant. i have tasted this quality in the past (very few).
the topping i feel had something to do with the rating - i think garlic powder was added into the butter coating.
the bread part was though where the magic was - no sugar sweat just really light bread.
i know the tandoor will have an effect and that combination of the stone base and soft upper part make for a perfect combination.
the naan was thin but not crispy. gut feeling it was not SR flour.
any thoughts appreciated - specifically if anyone has tried h4ppy-chris method but adapted to yeast flour.
this being my best thought of a way forward
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Could the topping have been garlic salt?
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Hi,
I never liked sweet bread ever since my first visit to France.
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Stephen,
Salt is a real good way of making most thinks better than they are.
Have never tried garlic salt - it could very well have been
Might just have to try it. I've been impressed with garlic powder and now using it in non curry cooking too. The naan topping did have a grittiness to it. Emm
Want to try out that red tandoori recipe so might do a kd yeast naan night using the h4ppy-chris method.
Best wishes
Littlechilli - got a chuckle that. Stick bread good and the wine.
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the restaurant i worked in used sr flour, egg, milk, salt and sugar... and that's all
here is my recipe for it... http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13151.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,13151.0.html)
a tandoor is pretty much essential though in my experience
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Hi Jerry
I follow the H4C recipe to the letter except I add 1 Dsp of yoghurt and half the sugar + 1tsp kalonji. The resultant dough is very,very loose but just about workable and produce 100% BIR naans. If u find it too runny ( I didnt) im sure you could Add a little more flour. To me one of the secrets is the almost unworkable dough, and the oiling just prior to cooking on the cushion side. Works for me every time and to me can be signed off as 100% BIR. For me it's the first recipe on this forum to reach that accolade 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Regards
Mick
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Some of the naan doughs I've seen on videos is so loose I often wonder how they do it. As a past bread maker I know the difficulty of sticky dough.
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So naan
300g of self raising flour, I used tesco value but the BIR uses Elephant Atta self-raising, note that there is no baking powder, soda or yeast added.
1 egg
175ml milk
0.5 tsp salt
0.5 tsp sugar
Sp / mickdabass
Appreciate recipe info and will keep in mind.
I've ended up setting a batch off and will then take stock. Used kd yeast recipe at 66 % hydration.
For info I wanted to add milk or yogurt but want to keep the 3 day ferment. Actually thinking 2 day without yeast then add on day before cook.
I'm not sure how milk or yogurt will hold up and may make throwaway batch.
Sp.'s SR might have to be my starting point if the yeast don't work. Previously on made yeast dough same day for naan.
Ps I use UB's 66% hydration as STD for all naan. So defo agree on sort of sticky best.
I think h4ppy-chris 53%.
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don't get too hung up on the specifics, like the rest of BIR stuff it's done by eye and feel, when i made the big batches of naan dough the flour was added, then the egg(s), then the salt, sugar and enough milk until it "came together", then you put the bowl in the sink and "scooped" the dough with your one hand, the other moving the bowl round rather than your hand round the bowl, adding water from the tap a few trickles at a time as required until the dough felt soft, pliable, sticky, but all together. then it was covered with plastic food bags, and put in the fridge for a few hours. after that, it would be removed and formed into dough balls on a floured tray, then covered again to stop them drying out in the heat of the kitchen. any unused balls at the end of service would go back in the fridge
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And again, although the image is blurred from motion, you can see how loose the dough is. From what I've seen the naan should pull itself out under it's own weight, while the handler simply applies motion to facilitate the shape and evenness of the bread. If you have to really pull it out, and it wants to spring back, you will have a tough naan.
This simply can't be done with a dough that has been excessively kneaded, as the gluten chain network will be far too elastic. Even after resting the dough for hours, if you have strong gluten it will toughen again almost immediately you move it.
I have to resist the temptation of reverting back to my loaf bread technique, which is difficult because you just slip into it automatically.
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Naan dough manhandled, i don't know if this helps either way with the elasticity theory, but I've put it up anyway
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1490546627894290 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1490546627894290)
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sp,
many thanks for all this info - appreciated.
my go was essentially trying out my pizza learning into naan. its a brick wall and i wont be trying it again. its just totally wrong.
will try your recipe next for sure.
a question if you would - in the facebook video is the naan wet before going in the tandoor. i ask as the pizza method produced quite sticky dough and felt this might be useful as it would stick without the need for additional water.
pic of the disaster - too dense/doughy
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/c8047db527e1dcb140ef41c2fe2f2df8.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#c8047db527e1dcb140ef41c2fe2f2df8.jpg)
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They look like nice chapattis Jerry ;)
To answer your question the dough isn't that sticky after it's been balled up and rolled in sr flour. A ball is taken from the tray, dipped in sr flour then rolled out, first using just fingers then rolling pin. It's then passed from hand to hand to stretch it out (see video), a bit of vegetable oil applied to the hands to stop the dough sticking when they are stretching it out. Then they wet one side a bit with water to make it stick to the tandoor wall and apply by hand. They only seem to use the gaadi naan pad thing if they're doing chapattis or peshwari naan, again, wetting one side lightly so it sticks to the wall.
Does that help any?
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SP
Many thanks for extra detail which completely puts my mind at rest.
Your recipe is exactly what I've been searching for. I am at journey end on this and see no further improvement.
Stephen was right on the garlic salt - essential but use sparingly. I tried initially mixing garlic powder and butter but although ok well short of the real McCoy. On the sp batch coated with garlic powder butter then light sprinkle of garlic salt - pure heaven.
Well pleased on both naan and topping.
Many thanks you both.
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you're very welcome, glad it worked out well for you :)
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SP,
Love the video/pictures that you've posted... looks VERY similar to how I've seen the naan prepared and stored in an open-concept takeaway kitchen that I used to frequent when I lived in another city. I've learned a few things recently as to how Naan is prepared that I was ignorant of in the past.
Originally, I eschewed the self-rising flour as being unimportant aside from the extra salt/leavening, but it actually is critical - not for its added components but rather as it is a different type of flour. Indian Maida (which is what is traditionally used for Naan) has a lower protein content than standard All Purpose flour. Self-rising, at least how it is sold here in the states is of a similar flour type. I bought a bag of Maida from the Indian grocery store, and this produced a more-tender result that I had not accomplished in the past. I may have also worked this dough too much, so I have learned from the information provided here that less is definitely more and will be trying another go sooner than later to see if the texture improves further.
But the reality of it is self-rising flour is going to be a lot cheaper, so that is likely what all our restaurants use in lieu of imported Maida. I actually have a standing question with the grocery shop owner, as he knows some restaurant owners and actually offered to ask them how they make their dough!! I told him I'd pay to get some lessons in a kitchen, too. So we'll see where that goes.
One thing I have noticed is that most/all of our restaurant Naan doesn't appear to use eggs. Whether for cost, regional preferences of the restaurant owners or what I'm not sure. Has anyone come across BIR naan that is made in a similar way, or do all of them seem to be about the same?
Before anyone asks - I have one of the most awesome tandoors I've ever encountered, so I have that part of the process covered.
I'll have to give your recipe a spin the next time I fire up the tandoor and see how it compares to our US-IR naans.
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Originally, I eschewed the self-rising flour as being unimportant aside from the extra salt/leavening, but it actually is critical - not for its added components but rather as it is a different type of flour. Indian Maida (which is what is traditionally used for Naan) has a lower protein content than standard All Purpose flour. Self-rising, at least how it is sold here in the states is of a similar flour type. I bought a bag of Maida from the Indian grocery store, and this produced a more-tender result that I had not accomplished in the past. I may have also worked this dough too much, so I have learned from the information provided here that less is definitely more and will be trying another go sooner than later to see if the texture improves further.
I feel that this in itself may be the key factor in obtaining the soft, fluffy naan that I'm striving to get. Weak flour and don't work it too hard. One video I watched of an Indian woman making naan showed her being so gentle with the mixing that there would have been hardly any gluten network at all.
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Definitely for me, don't work it or knead it too hard
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Zap,
The egg was I feel the key part of SP recipe. As soon as I mixed the dough I sensed a quality product.
In past I've made most naan without egg (dont normally have to hand). I normally get the softness through combination of high hydration (66% c/w 58% SP) and 24 hrs in fridge.
It's not just softness as I'm sure given your tandoor know - it's that tuff base, soft upper and un healthy topping.
The egg I associate with cake making (not something I do). I believe it softens.
I might just have to do a side by side SP on the next go ie with and without egg. I do think though that the egg is needed. I guess like chewytikka mentioned in another post how much and what effect is now on my mind too.
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At least a couple of hours, I think is the recommended time. It softens the dough and allows you to form it out.
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I think there is a lot of good feedback here. One of my first clues was the fact that the dough should be EASY to stretch / roll out. That alone illustrates the minimal gluten development, which will affect the final texture. I wonder if anyone actually uses a mixer, or if it almost has to be just very gently mixed by hand until combined and no more.
Ironically, as Jerry notes, I am getting that beautiful crusty base which exactly mimics the restaurant breads I've had. The center isn't as soft, however, and I think that I will treat this more like making a biscuit dough where overworking is absolutely detrimental to the finished product. Also possibly worth noting is that some of the US restaurant naan doesn't have as much bubbling to it.
I also wonder if I should be resting the dough longer, as in the past I haven't had a super long rest as is recommended here. I know all the restaurants I have ever seen that they have the dough on big sheet pans in the chiller, most likely having been made much earlier in the day or even day previous.
I may also try with and without the egg, but follow this recipe aside from half of the dough being without egg. It may simply be the fact that the restaurant where I detected a strong egg flavor used a lot more of it, to the point where it became imbalanced and overpowering. Worth noting is one recipe I came across actually did list it as optional, so there is that fact that it may be possible to simply omit it and have the dough still work, though obviously be different.
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Thanks, will give it a try. Not sure why but when I leave dough for an extended rest time it seems to go sticky and sloppy, like something in it breaks down. But I'm sure 2 hours will be fine. Just gotta avoid creating gluten when I mix it, based on other comments. Kinda technical this bread making huh?
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It will be slightly sticky. With water content as high as it is and little working you can't expect it to be anything else. Oil your hands, and spray oil your bench top.
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I think there is a lot of good feedback here. One of my first clues was the fact that the dough should be EASY to stretch / roll out. That alone illustrates the minimal gluten development,
I'm getting confused
I thought it WAS the gluten that made dough stretchy
Is that wrong?
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I think it's the other way around haldi. The more you knead the bread the more gluten you get. The more gluten you have the less stretchy the dough is and the better it will rise when baked. I think temperature had a role too, the more temp the more gluten while you knead.
But I'm no expert. Someone will know.
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Gluten forms a network which allows the dough to inflate with the formation of co2. It is very elastic which means if you stretch it out it wants to spring back. If you over kneed the dough or use strong flour you will get a dough that is rubbery and tough. It will also be very difficult to roll or stretch out to a thin naan shape. Resting dough relaxes the gluten and allows shaping but it will toughen up again quite quickly once it is present. Best to avoid it if you want a fluffy naan.
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Sorry just noticed the question now as I don't get notifications on more than one reply to a topic.
The dough doesn't have to sit for a prescribed time after coming out of the fridge, you can use it straight away it'll just be a bit more pliable if you leave it to sit for a bit. Don't leave it too long though or as you've seen it gets too hot and difficult to handle, you'll find your own happy medium i'm sure. Just make sure you keep it covered (clingfilm or plastic bag) to stop the dough drying out and forming a skin in a warm kitchen if you leave it sitting out.
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On the kneading I do very little as per pizza. I use the Peter rinehart (probably spelt wrong) 1/4 fold technique. You put the ingredients in a tub and fold over the corners, leave a while then repeat until the dough balls ie comes away from the sides and holds together.
I also like to autolyse ie add water to ingredients quick combine then leave 20 mins before the 1/4 fold.
In short hardly any knead. The gluten forms naturally. The yeast and cold ferment in pizza breaks the gluten down. I don't know what happens in SR I think nothing other than longer leave develops more flavour
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pic of the SP naan 1st go (before coating)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6601857fd7c5eaa861845d8be6f04112.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#6601857fd7c5eaa861845d8be6f04112.jpg)
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They look very much like the sort of naans I'm used to in my neck of the woods, Jerry. Never seen a round naan come out of a TA or restaurant. Thinner and not as fluffy, of course, but that's only to be expected from a domestic kitchen.
Have you tasted them yet? Looking very good, anyway!
I'm going to try SP's recipe out myself today and I only hope mine's turn out like yours. :)
(I nearly cracked the Fanny Craddock joke, but resisted manfully!)
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Naga,
Exactly as you describe was for me too.
Yes. All eaten family loved them.
A small sprinkle of purchased garlic salt also took them to restaurant level. A pastry brush of melted butter and garlic powder was also added before the salt.
Family was 100% satisfied and told me search no more.
Obviously the tarva is not as good as tandoor but I can live with the gap.
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Many thanks, Jerry. Great to get your feedback.
As things turned out, I didn't get around to making the naans last weekend, but I'll get on it for this weekend's curries.
Thanks again! :)
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Those look excellent! The Naan we get here in the US doesn't usually have the huge bubbles like seen in other recipe postings. I had to run into the city so I was lucky enough to stop at the Indian grocery again on the way home and talk to the shop owner. He said he surveyed his restaurant owning friends and they don't add much to the dough (just like the recipe here). I think he said some don't even add salt! They definitely use just milk, no yoghurt, and only one of the restaurants said they use any egg either.
With the weather turning pretty nasty here, I'm not sure when the next tandoor session will be, but I will be trying SP's recipe and I think I am going to try it with and without the egg and see what happens and how both versions compare to the restaurant-style naan I've had.
At a certain point, I think one will only get so far until the recipe is right, tandoor or not. I think this is going to be another big jump in getting there.
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They look really nice Jerry. Your methodical scientific approach has once again delivered the goods!!
I personally am very happy with the modified H4C Naans (half the sugar, 1 tsp kalonji and 1 dsp yoghurt) cooked in the tandoor
Regards
Mick
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Why are we even having this conversation? If you don't have a tandoor (or maybe even if you do), the H4ppy Naan recipe and method is unbeatable - messing about with the sugar and yogurt excepted.
No offence to you, Jerry, but yours look like the kind of biscuit-textured attempts I made in the oven several years ago.
It doesn't matter (to me) what shape it is, as long as the taste and texture are there, and it's easy to modify Chris's if you want a thinner naan.
I would just ask you to compare this one from Andy
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/3261074bc663eb35b9e29d911d815e96.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/3261074bc663eb35b9e29d911d815e96.jpg)
....to this one from Jerry
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6601857fd7c5eaa861845d8be6f04112.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6601857fd7c5eaa861845d8be6f04112.jpg)
Nuff said :)
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Garp,
It's down to individual expectation.
I was happy with the h4ppy-chris naan till I sampled naan at the hilal in timperly on a night out.
They did remind me of midland naan. Quite thin and not doughy.
The SP naan is a real find for me. Perfect. As I say my naan journey is done.
Tandoor or no tandoor being irrelevant to me. It's what I can produce with what I have and how close that is to the best BIR land has to offer.
Anyone who is sold on the h4ppy-chris recipe can stick to it. I do rate it. I just was never happy with the sugar and a slight tang that I've never been able to bottom. Until SP that is.
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I religiously make H4ppy naans every Thursday now and they are always spot on. I don't use seeds and only use 50grams of sugar MAX.
I use room temperature milk and egg, leave that to sit half an hour. Add that to the flour, add water and mix gently with a knife until just mixed.
Cover with cling film and leave till night time.
Oil it and whack it in the fridge.
Take out very early Friday morning. Leave to rest for 2 hrs, ball up and flour, leave to rest at least 4 hrs.
Cook!
Perfect every time :) I add garlic and butter to mine with I fry off in a little fry pan and it's the dogs doo-dars! ;D
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The SP naan is a real find for me. Perfect. As I say my naan journey is done.
Cheers Jerry, that's a great endorsement for me to give these a try. I do love the happy naans though, they will take a lot of beating
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They did remind me of midland naan. Quite thin and not doughy.
I've never found the H4ppy naan to be doughy. Normal pictures are taken fresh from the tawa, but they do flatten out. The dough can also be rolled thinner to produce crispier naans. One of my local Restaurants serves naan in slices, like a pzza, and they are kind of crispy in the middle (I'm not sure if that is what you are referring to).
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Can anyone summarise the differences between these two recipes please? Not in exact details, just roughly. It will help me understand this discussion . Thank you
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Sverige
Anyone who wants to make top notch needs to watch the h4ppy-chris video (27 mins well worth)
I started using the method and recipe nearly 12 months ago. It does produce top notch naan.
I struggled with the amount of sugar and use of baking powder. I tried experimenting but in fixing these I broke the magic of the original recipe.
The SP recipe fixes these 2 issues for me.
The only remaining unknown for me is to adopt the h4ppy-chris 3 day ferment ( which I'm big fan of) into the SP recipe and h4ppy-chris method.
In short they are very similar - SP softer (all milk) and less sweet and no after taste from the baking powder.
As the posts show it really comes down to personal preference. Make them both then decide yourself.
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Thanks Jerry I will look into this and try them. I tried watching that video but gave up each time because the guy can't seem to get his words out. Will try it again.
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We know the Wee Reiver worships at the alter of H4ppy Naan
But lets not forget the original recipe and method and video from Mick Crawford
CBM's Restaurant Naan Bread [without a tandoori oven]
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Sverige
The video is too long for now for sure. Ive not seem the CBM. Although I know inverting the tarva was his.
The key points for me
1) the water or milk must be left for a decent amount of time before cooking. Min 1 hr and 24 hrs if poss. The 3 day Gaines a little but not essential
2) getting the tarva hot enough but not too hot takes some practice. In h4ppy-chris post a member suggests a droplet of water should roll.
3) getting the naan to stick is quite hard. Liberal water and pressing particularly around rim.
4) as soon as you smell burn turn over
These are the key points in the method.
Chewytikka,
I take it the banana counters the after taste of the baking powder. Quite a blinkers off approach but loving banana will certainly give a try. This would be a significant breakthrough. The baking powder does make a difference if the downside can be eliminated. As always appreciate you keeping me on tack.
Ps one after thought on the 2 recipe. The hydration in h4ppy-chris is 53% c/w I'd have to check but o think 58% in SP. This makes a huge difference. UB uses 66% which is what I have used since his advice. It is wet/sticky and not for everyone. The pat a cake trick being essential.
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Tested my new tawa out yesterday. It seasoned perfectly after 3 layers of oil and considerable heat. The naan stuck pretty well but I hadn't made a proper pad so it wasn't perfect but adequate. I'll need to make some adjustment to the shape of the handle for the inversion technique though.
I used the recipe 2 posts up by Chewytikka, which is not too different to others I've tried previously, and I just can't get the texture or flavour that I'm after in a naan bread. While they were perfectly adequate, they just seem to lack the fine silky smooth texture I'm after. As well as this they didn't bubble up to give that characteristic naan appearance, but more so they simply rose uniformly as a whole piece, more like a cake or bread loaf would. To me they were a bit floury in texture. It may well be the flour I'm using which is just a generic SR Flour.
I bought 5 kg of 00 Tipo pasta flour the other day. I'll give that a try to see if it makes for a smoother texture. It has a 10% protein count and the packet says it is perfect for pizza bases giving a good strong elastic dough.
As for the "missing" aroma and flavour that comes with store bought, I'm still poking around in the dark. I just don't know what it is.
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I think there is a lot of good feedback here. One of my first clues was the fact that the dough should be EASY to stretch / roll out. That alone illustrates the minimal gluten development,
I'm getting confused
I thought it WAS the gluten that made dough stretchy
Is that wrong?
I agree with you, Haldi. I thought so-called 'strong' flour for bread making has a high gluten content, whereas self-raising flour, often used for making cakes, has a low gluten content. I didn't think you can 'create' gluten by kneading.
I make bread quite often. The combination of strong flour and water produces dough, and it can be stretched.
I tried making naan bread today, using self-raising flour. The mixture was like pastry, as I'd have expected. It couldn't be stretched but was easy to roll out, whereas bread dough is springy and would be very difficult to roll out. The flavour of the naans was spot-on and the first one had all the characteristic bubbles, but the rest of the batch lacked any bubbles, and I don't know why. Perhaps the temperature of the pan was different. R&D continues...
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The difference in flour strength is a measure of the protein, which is it's potential to develop gluten. Kneading is what causes the gluten to develop. You can have high protein flour but if you don't work it the gluten doesn't develop.
Strong gluten will make the dough elastic, not stretchy. Have you had a dough that you just can't roll out?