Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on June 02, 2014, 05:59 PM
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i tasted a BIR base from my local TA some years ago. it tasted really very delux. the chef said it was only a method of adding water to the curry. the boss said it was the secret to curry.
i ice cubed the sample and copied it but never really thought more about it until recently. except of course for the oil which i still have not got close to (this is not a key factor though)
recently a good friend of mine (curry fan who also lives in warrington) brought about a tasting at my local restaurant. the difference in base was very stark. it was very much like a KD1 base - sort of nothing in it other than onion.
the TA base on the other hand was very delux - what i would call well crafted.
i would of expected based on the food quality - the bases to be the other way round ie the restaurant with the better base and the TA with the "cheeper" base.
Not so.
i'm still trying to get a copy cat of the restaurant base but feel i'm quite close ie confident it's not really that different to KD1.
It puts the cat among the pigeons for me - what to take from it and what to do differently.
this is the old link to the TA sample which someone might be able to make work:
http://cr0.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329 (http://cr0.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368.msg26329#msg26329)
(ps i've tried http://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368 (http://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2368))
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I think it makes sense Jerry. The restaurant should be knocking out better, more differentiated curries and a simple base which can be built on at the curry cooking stage lends itself to that.
The takeaway on the other hand wants to just bang 'em out quick sharp so it uses a more 'complete' base and it's curries will, as a consequence, probably suffer from a degree of sameness as you often find, especially nowadays.
Are there any curry bases on the forum which compare to these two?
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Secret Santa,
real good analysis. had not thought of it that way.
the TA base copy is the posted, "my take" (link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,3462.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,3462.0.html))
i make it most (usually just need to get a carrot as i have the rest to hand).
the restaurant base really is a KD1. i don't know of any other site base that is close to it.
this is the current recipe albeit under test so to speak. it's not blended but mashed. the coriander root needs chopping as otherwise it does not mash well. i add all and cook slowly (my method of choice). it's something i need to check as recently i'd switched to cooking "hard veg" 1st followed by soft ingredients followed by spice.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1c477929443aaecd951c9870ac98eb94.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#1c477929443aaecd951c9870ac98eb94.JPG)
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Hi Jerry,
I'm not sure I can add much to the base gravy discussion, as you are much more scientific and analytical than I. Looking forward to another visit to the restaurant. I think it's a key point that they use what we agreed are 'secondary' bases/pastes for specific dishes (I was surprised too), so the primary base is unsurprisingly simple and pretty much just onions. So, the secret lies in the 'secondary' bases/pastes for the restaurant.
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Richard,
well pleased you've found CRO.
for sure the "secondary bases/pastes/sauces" are key to using the "onion" only base. what and how remains unknown - hence my difficulty or questioning of how it fits with what is already known.
i think for me it puts a line under my understanding of a base threshold ie once a base fits a certain criteria then its good to go so to speak. any subsequent actions or ingredients having a far greater impact on the final dish.
i suppose in short: no point searching for the holly grail of base - it has no real bearing on achieving BIR.
for me personally in pursuit of Best BIR i can't believe the onion base plus "secondary bases/pastes/sauces" will beat my current what i feel top notch bases. time will tell.
interesting stuff.
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only of slight interest.
had meal at the same local restaurant in the week and surprise surprise the texture of the finished curry was not the sort of "lumpy" impression of norm.
it was clear to me having already carried out several variations on the simple base - the restaurant base on this occasion had been blended. presumable down to being pushed for time or running out in service.
the taste was exactly the same.
in short - mashing c/w blending only makes the curry look better.
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Jerry I don't know if this is the kind of thing you are referring to but I always remember being stunned byt the first few posts from masala mark based in Australia. This really was about different gravies, horses for courses kind of thing rather than an all-in-one.
I've posted a link below but he has posted other recipes so they might be worth a look?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,4951.msg47457.html#msg47457 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,4951.msg47457.html#msg47457)
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Hi Jerry,
I'm not sure I can add much to the base gravy discussion, as you are much more scientific and analytical than I. Looking forward to another visit to the restaurant. I think it's a key point that they use what we agreed are 'secondary' bases/pastes for specific dishes (I was surprised too), so the primary base is unsurprisingly simple and pretty much just onions. So, the secret lies in the 'secondary' bases/pastes for the restaurant.
I think you are right about the pastes! I was in my local takeaway, and the pans to be used for the next orders were above the cooker on a shelf.They were lent back against the wall, some had red paste in them,some yellow paste! Also I watched the chef has he stirred the Garabi, he did this a few times, and when he lifted the ladle out,there was a round thing in it. I'm pretty sure it was an onion, but could have been a spice ball?? This is my first post and not sure if I've done it correctly. Cheers Vinnyderloo
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Stephen, vinnyderloo,
many thanks for link to masala mark. i'd forgotten about those posts. much appreciate the prompt - i now think i can get some mileage from it.
just to be clear NO DOUBT at all there are 2 methods of cooking in BIR. the main one (say no1) we are all aware of and which is what i've learnt and spent all my time on.
this 2nd method took me by surprise (it should not have done re Ashoka method which seems a sort of cross between the 2 or maybe is the 2 nd method) - a very simple base to which pastes/sauces/2nd base (call whatever it is = sauce) are added to make each dish. there are say 5 types of these sauces and they are either used individually or combined to produce the menu. the manager says they are purely used (as opposed to method 1) to produce the dishes quickly to meet service. i get the impression the sauce is made in real bulk - pure guess say 5L at a time.
i'm currently trying to think how you would cook with method 2. these being on my mind:
1) would you still add oil then garlic ginger - or would the garlic ginger be in the sauce
2) would you still add the puree and spice and fry - or would this too be in the sauce
i suspect they simply add oil, then sauce, then base - in short they cooked down the sauce like you would normally cook down the garlic, puree, spice.
what's my interest - i sort of think if it's done for ease in BIR it may make home BIR easier too. the effort to make at home currently being my no1 difficulty.
will have read up on both masala mark and ashoka - which am sure will give the pointers i need.
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will have read up on both masala mark and ashoka - which am sure will give the pointers i need.
Alex's Glasgow bases and recipes use the same technique Jerry so read those too. All the spice is essentially in the various precooked elements so making a basic curry is nothing more than base, meat (along with the cooking sauce), GG paste, tomato paste and chilli sauce. No added spice mix at all, well, apart from methi.
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I was in my local takeaway, and the pans to be used for the next orders were above the cooker on a shelf.They were lent back against the wall, some had red paste in them,some yellow paste!
Vinny that 'paste' could just be the remains of the previous curry as some restaurants don't wash the pans between each curry.
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I was in my local takeaway, and the pans to be used for the next orders were above the cooker on a shelf.They were lent back against the wall, some had red paste in them,some yellow paste!
Vinny that 'paste' could just be the remains of the previous curry as some restaurants don't wash the pans between each curry.
SS point taken but it looked like the powder paint we used to use at school in the sixties. It looked new!!
Won't be going there anymore if they don't wash their pans! Regards vinny
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will have read up on both masala mark and ashoka - which am sure will give the pointers i need.
I tried the Ashoka base recently
I think the recipe is written wrong or there is a massive difference in curries from Scotland
The amount of coconut seems way too high, and the garlic ginger paste (added to the base) is far too much.
Everything just tastes of garlic ginger
It's the predominant flavour
The Scottish Glasgow curries by Alex Wilie (big boaby) are way better
In fact I think they may be the best on this site
When you are cooking the base, it just smells "right"
The idea of a spicy stock and bunjarra from the Ashoka recipes does seem correct
It's just the base that really muddles it all
Lots of people read these posts but I feel very few make them
Who else tried the Ashoka and Glasgow recipes?
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I think the Ashoka thing is a complete red herring - at least to me on my personal 1980s BIR quest. Macdonalds pride themselves that a big mac tastes the same whether its from Tamworth or Timbuktu. They do this all through their chain of supply by simplifying the many production processes to utilise unskilled cheap labour etc. After looking on the Ashoka website, they've got 10 restaurants. I wouldnt be suprised if they have all their pastes and maybe even gravy either produced from one facility (maybe their own i don't know) or bought in from an outside supplier. Just my cynical view Im afraid
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Secret Santa,
Will search Alex Glasgow.
Have read up the Aussie lessons. In short 3 bases and water approach. Some good ideas parked for now.
The Ashoka is a sort of 1.5 approach. Even with the pastes still a conventional fry.
I am looking I think for sauce, gravy, finishes approach much like chewy's red CTM.
Going to have to give it a go using the no3 madras as the starting point.
The principle really does both sit well and very bad. Feel I also need to try and get a better feel from the manager of the high level principle. Eg do peppers, fried onion etc all have to go in the sauces - I guess they do.
Ps I don't wash my pan in service.
Haldi,
I did find the Ashoka base pretty good but there are better and I can't see the effort to improve being worth it. It is the tool kit that's stayed with me from the Ashoka ie the g/g green chilli bunjarra paste along with the various sauces
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still need to read further into Alex Glasgow - looks interesting.
anyhow - had to give this ago. most exciting thing on my curry radar for a good few years.
made the basic base and still mashed it - gut feeling blending is ultimately going to be adopted as the mashing really is hardwork. this time i left the oil in the base and did not reclaim. i also put half the oil in the sauce and half in the base (ie 2 tbsp per portion in each - making 1 chef for me in total)
also has a 1st stab at the No3 Madras sauce. you live and learn and would blend more things next time but on the whole was very pleased with method and resulting taste. i cooked it (so to speak, cooked out the chilli powder and heated the rest) in the kitchen on my 1kw hob - worked really well.
all set up for a hot fry tomorrow Saturday to be followed by a Chewytikka Red CTM Sunday.
going to adopt: sauce, base, fry approach (just like the chewytikka video for CTM).
this is all of course pure guesswork based on the few words of wisdom from the manager at my fav local restaurant.
so far if it works then it really is a breeze and has many benefits. as i say real excited.
also going to try out the maillard hot fry thanks to mambo.
Mashed Basic Base:
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/785d739ccb41fd0fd7985d75a4c35773.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#785d739ccb41fd0fd7985d75a4c35773.jpg)
Cooked "heated" No3 Madras Sauce
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/c4a28015cfec65b4994fea7a2aa6c265.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#c4a28015cfec65b4994fea7a2aa6c265.jpg)
No3 Madras Sauce 1st Go recipe
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/9ef4f8bbdb6a8c8c760806557e738233.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#9ef4f8bbdb6a8c8c760806557e738233.JPG)
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Good luck Jerry. Will be interested to hear about your results with the 'double jointed' madras.
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rsholme123,
did not go well. ended up with way too much oil - because i normally decant the oil before blending i tend to add more than needed. this with the oil in the "sauce" made overkill and effectively ruined the test.
going to have to redo it all.
it was good in away though to get a tasting of the sauce in the finished dish - close but not close enough. thoughts being:
1) add ginger
2) use different mix pwdr (used iffu which is not a hard mix pwdr)
3) more green chilli
4) too much sultana
on the +ve the principle worked a treat ie baggar the sauce in bulk then at dish fry warm the sauce through add the base and done.
ps Maillard - took my temp probe and used the red spot beam for the 1st time - maillard principle works a treat - aimed to keep rim at 180C ish with 200C max. on 1st go adopted this and pan rim stayed really good. on 2nd cook used my norm style no heat gun and after cooking found the rim had black debris. well pleased.
in short what i found happens is towards the end of cooking the pan temp starts to climb dramatically and i just needed to turn turn the heat down a little at this stage.
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Update on the oil fiasco.
Also felt the onion was not mashed enough.
In short decided to blend, add 1.2l water and do a stage 2 simmer aiming to skim the oil off.
Was taken aback by amount of scum on what is a basic base.
In short feel stage 2 is essential despite my objective of keeping the effort to minimum.
Hoping this will also serve to soften the onion more for mashing. The last base stage 1 cooked for 5 hrs so more gas maybe what's needed. Ideally need to try both options out.
Ps chewytikka's red CTM delicious so basic base works if the "sauce" is right. Was so popular made 3 off Sunday and further 3 off Monday night.
As a result going to park no3 madras and try a rogan josh next which for me is cracked
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Nice one Jerry, sounds like youre feeding happy mouths, despite not totally successful with the paste sauce. Haven't been cooking much BIR recently, although having a BBQ at the weekend for which I'm cooking some BIR and traditional dishes.
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rsholme123,
hope bbq goes well. decent book ISBN 0-7513-2719-0 by Eric Treuille might be of interest.
we on TA. the heat for sure has put a dampener on the cooking front. in no rush as you know hoping for breakthrough fingers crossed.
best wishes,
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Thanks Jerry, will look into that.
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finally got round to making base and trying out the idea of Fryer Oil. have added 10% fryer oil of the plain oil ie 30ml fryer, 150 reclaimed, 150 fresh.
have also adopted the 2:1 ginger:garlic ratio suggested by iffu. had no carrot but made good with extra onion (have made previously with and without so not fused).
aiming to try out No3 Vindaloo with it being motivated by madrasandy's ultimate vindaloo post.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1b2da1b3f87f1f6362cdaa8dc31756b2.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#1b2da1b3f87f1f6362cdaa8dc31756b2.jpg)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/105984320c2e4ddedad54d509fdc6088.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#105984320c2e4ddedad54d509fdc6088.JPG)
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Excellent jerry, I'll look forward to your results
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quite ironic given Kai's post - onions were far too sweet. i also still got too much oil in the finished dish (only added 2 tbsp at dish fry).
have done 2nd stage cook on the base to try and remove the sweetness. will get another dish cook on monday. there was not much oil on top so the excess oil is from added at dish fry.
for background. the basic base used at the restaurant does have water added but was not clear when or how. i've adopted the nottingham idea of adding it at dish fry ie missing out stage 2 re heat (this happening at the dish fry). i've also been trying to adopt mashing and this needs the onions cooking typ 5 hrs. over a few goes i've now got this right but ended up with very sweet onion. the base tasted much sweeter than the base i tasted in the restaurant - so i feel i've gone too far.
it might just be the case that my sauce mix is not right ie to balance the sweetness.
i'm well out of my comfort zone "base knowledge" on this but hoping to learn more of the why.
only real progress is the coriander root - the restaurant does not add to the base. i find if mashing it makes the look of the base naff. in short going to dele the coriander from the base and add more at sauce.
the sauce method works a treat. i used the no3 vindaloo sauce - not bad still work in progress but base needs to be right 1st.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/dd2c0fa5e65e04fd9469a15d68654903.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#dd2c0fa5e65e04fd9469a15d68654903.JPG)
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have cooked the 4 off no 3 vindaloo using the base.
i ended up blending it - the mashing is what i need for "best" - it looks good but too many other problems need sorting 1st.
the main problem was the base was just too sweet and in the mashed form the "chunks" were just out of balance in the finished dish. felt like a traditional dish.
forgot to comment on the inclusion of the chip fryer oil - i don't feel i added enough. i was looking for a sort of "cardboard" flavour and in short don't see this happening (as Haldi said) until the fryer oil is right - i just don't cook enough bhaji to produce the effect.
going to abandon it - have greater areas of need. i actually hope it caused the sweetening as i've never had this problem before.
on next batch going to reduce the cook down to say 3 hrs from the 5 hrs in effort to kill off this sweetness which i really don't gel with.
part of me also says this basic base is not right - thinking of upping the turmeric. its currently at 0.6% of onion g where my norm would be more like 4%.
i'm also not sure how long i can hack this basic base idea - beginning to question my original thought - why on earth. it does expose problem areas though and for that is worth my effort. need to sleep on it.
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on next batch going to reduce the cook down to say 3 hrs from the 5 hrs in effort to kill off this sweetness which i really don't gel with.
A while ago I experimented with the onion cooking times to obtain the correct sweetness, if you take them too far they become too sweet and not far enough they dont have enough sweetness, I did a slow simmer for around 5-6 hours and they became too sweet, almost sickly sweet, 3 hours on a gentle simmer sounds about right Jerry
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Madrasandy,
Appreciate that puts my mind at rest.
I'd never gone past 2 hr in past on stage 1 and was not aware of the rubbish effect of going too sweet.
Lesson learnt albeit hard way.
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I made 7 bases in 7 days all with different variations of heat and timings for the stage 1 onion cook. Its hard to give timings on this matter as everybodys heat output will differ, onions will differ in type and age also.
For me its just getting them to the completely soft stage, where they could just be easily squashed to a complete smoothness with no resistance . Cooking them past this point and they become to sweet especially as there are all the other base stages still to complete.
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MA at last your getting to" know your onions" ;)
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(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13168.0;attach=3863;image)(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13168.0;attach=3863;image)(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13168.0;attach=3863;image)(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13168.0;attach=3863;image)
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I made 7 bases in 7 days all with different variations of heat and timings for the stage 1 onion cook. Its hard to give timings on this matter as everybodys heat output will differ, onions will differ in type and age also.
For me its just getting them to the completely soft stage, where they could just be easily squashed to a complete smoothness with no resistance . Cooking them past this point and they become to sweet especially as there are all the other base stages still to complete.
Boiling them to they turn brownish is going towards an unwanted flavour. There's a smell they give off when their just right, but you may need to go outside & back in to smell it. Its virtually impossible
to tell the difference in a finished gravy, which made the whole bir thing at home so tricky.
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MA at last your getting to" know your onions" ;)
Yes I sure am thankyou Mr Ox (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13168.0;attach=3863;image)
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A further thought prompted by madrasandy's trials.
In contrast to this 5 hr cooking for a mashed base my norm is to adopt the Shortest base cook time.
When i kicked off a search for best BIR a while ago Axe gave me good pointers. One of which got me onto the concept that heat destroys flavour.
In short I tried out how much I could shorten the norm 3 hr base. I ended up at just under 2 hrs. Stage 1 split into 1 hr dense veg, 30 mins light veg and flavours. Stage 2 after blend reduced from 1 hr to 20 mins.
I also use low flame ie slow simmer ie not boil as standard for stage 1 and a light boil for stage 2 (so I can still skim the scum)
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Hi Jerry,
Have you or anyone else put any thought into this when adjusting your base timings?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12988.msg105827.html#msg105827 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12988.msg105827.html#msg105827)
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Good read that Frank, so cut the veg larger for a longer cook to keep the flavours. The onions would have to be cooked whole then as if they were cut in half/quarter they would break apart anyway and become small
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Not necessarily. Halved or quartered will still hold some shape if not messed about with too much compared to a fine dice.
Unfortunately I don't have the space anymore (or a 2nd curry freezer :'( ) to do any large side by side trials.
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Dalpuri,
amazing how posts can go under the radar.
yes for sure 100% on this one. it's a famous turning point i believe in French cooking some years ago.
in a nut shell for me for base don't dice or anywhere near. i rough cut the onion (in half then thk slice 3 cut max).
i have seen BIR video with onion whole. given what i've seen in my recent 5 hr work i going to adopt just cutting in half. same for carrot lengthways.
appreciate the prompt.
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Great topic to discus, I always use a very watery base! So my finished curry has two ladles undiluted base sauce remaining once the water has reduced out. My base sauce is always at the consistence of a finished curry for freezing or storing.
The method I use is 50/50 water to base,so by adding 2 ladles of base + 2 ladles of water b4 cooking = 1 pint of diluted base per pre-cooked portion of curry.
This also = 2 x ladles of base in remaining cooked portion at original consistency, taking into account the dry spice,oil and diluted tomato pur?e added to curry in the cooking process.
This works well for myself but we are all different.
Regarding the onions I will make a base this week and usually chop my onions medium, but after reading the last few posts will now try cutting in half on your recommendation, I'm now Hoping to retain more flavour in the finished sauce from the larger pieces.
Are we still all agreed 3 hours is correct cooking time for the onions? Before blending and simmering?
Thanks.