Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Chilli Prawn on October 22, 2006, 07:18 PM
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I have been made aware that some guests/members are selling recipes from this site, and possible creating books or ebooks (Ebay etc). It depends on your point of view, but if a recipe is uncredited then it is free to copy but still liable to copyright laws if it is then sold for profit. Similarly, If someone posts a recipe here which is fully accredited as their creation etc,. then it may not be copied or used for gain without the permission of the author or copyright owner. I think this should be placed somewhere in the conditions or whatever, just so that pirates know they may be liable for prosecution! I would hate to see all your hard work be stolen for someone elses profit. But then I guess the majority wouldn't mind. What do you think.
CP
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Ha haaaa me hearties dead men tell no lies, yo ho yo ho.
You don't know how difficult it is being a full time Dark lord & a Captain of ship of scurrilous dogs ha haaar.
On a serious note, yep i agree we have all worked hard here at CR0 & we do deserve protection, any of the members in the field of Law or has insight into the legal machinations of our plight, your assistance would be of a great help.
Failing that if you copy our recipes & sell them without our permission you have the option of being chopped in half (Darth Maul styleee) or run through with my trusty sword hah haaarrr. ;D
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Listen you crazy person. If you want to be a pirate captain then learn the trade 8)
Its Keel-hauling and the cat o' nine tails you want, as well as hanging from the yardarm by the thumbs, or failing that make 'em walk the plank (after you have done the rest of course) ;D Could do with a yohoho emoticon here now. Suppose you will calling yourself Darth Blackbeard now :-*
Nighty Nighty
CP (Cap'n Pugwash)
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;D ;D
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The Ebay skank merchants have always done this and they always will. The best thing to do is create a few throw away ebay accounts and ruin their auctions. Doing this with a couple of accounts is best by forcing the price up high so that the scammer ends up paying really high fees to Ebay 8)
You can try and report them to Ebay but they don't really care, as long as they get the fee's they turn a blind eye.
I have actually listed an auction warning people that all of this information is availiable free here! Might have to relist it ;)
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Nice one CurryKing 8)
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I sell my CTM recipe on ebay, its all my own work and is on this site with my blessing FOC.
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Yeah sorry Mark I don't mean to suggest that every ebayer is a skank merchant far from it I use it a lot myself for books and games etc..
We all know the sellers though, selling some curry ebook which ALWAYS turns out to be the completely crap "Secrets of the Indian Chefs Revealed", with a different name!
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Ebay has unfortunately become more of a front - end loaded collector of fees - content with the collection of $$$ rather than monitoring the integrity of the individuals that utilize the service .
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sadly yes
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I fear that anyone who lifts and sells recipes from this forum or anywhere else is running very little risk, sadly. The cost of launching an action for copyright infringement in the Crown Court must be seriously HUGE, like tens of thousands of pounds. I doubt if the small claims route includes copyright type theft. Then, even, if you had your day in court, the defence barristers would probably find gaping weaknesses in any claim and the case would probably be thrown out at even greater cost, with defence fees added.
On the other hand, recipes were printed here from The Curry Secret until the publisher registered a complaint, so aren't we (collectively) almost as bad as the eBay sellers?
Is there a case for turning this forum into a members-only group, so only a few dozen people can read the recipes? Members would be invited, based on trust. I don't mean that anyone could join just by paying a fee.
Regards
George
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I agree George (members only group) the percentage of members who post anything must be incredibly low, What do we think as active members? (is there another Poll looming ;D).
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YES
I Totally Agree Come On Stew Lock the Door and Baton down the hatches ;D
All our members hard work shouldn't be taken for granted by one off visits by strangers then posting our recipes on other sites such as the BBC OH No naughty naughty !
8) Layne
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Hi All,
Unfortunatly that is the essence of the internet, information can be taking and used, and even sold on ebay!
Maybe one day we will look to a members only area.
I have an idea though which will stop people being able to copy and paste....ill look into it
Stew
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Count me in for a yes on that point Darth/Stew
CP
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Maybe one day we will look to a members only area...I have an idea though which will stop people being able to copy and paste....ill look into it
So a members only area ain't gonna happen any time soon here then! If it will help, I'd be happy to try and set up a separate site and the core group from here could migrate over there, taking their recipes with them if that would help.
If fear that any general control on copy and paste will be the worst of all worlds. I copy and paste from here all the time, for my own use, as a safeguard against the site going down, and to save loads of time searching for recipes which were of interest.
Regards
George
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The problem, George, is how do you define the core group? And what if one or more of that core group are the same scumbags who are ripping off this site's goodies? I agree with your desire to make it harder for them, but I think the practicalities of implementing any long-term solution make it a near impossibility.
YF
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YF
Good point. You are correct. In reality, I know it's not practical to change much, which is a bit frustrating. In terms of defining a trusted core group, if I was judge and jury (which I'm not!) it would include all the people on this thread so far, for a start!
You're also correct that trust and treachery are uncertain areas.
Regards
George
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It is very difficult to judge the grey areas on this site when shadows left by both the lurkers and opportunists are ever present ! The format may well have to both change and evolve in order to promote the concept on which this site was initially developed . Unfortunately , there is always some unscrupulous fat bastard out there who is quite willing to sell his first born for profit !
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I should have said that when I copy and paste from this forum, into my own word doc set up for the purpose, it's mostly ideas and comments I'm making a note of, rather than recipes. There are some great ideas but on the forum they tend to be spread here there and everywhere, almost inevitably. So if I make a note of all the best comments/opinions, e.g. on whether to brown or not brown onions, then at some stage I may be able to pull all the comments on each subject together. Whereas here, the comments may be found anywhere, even in the most unlikely category as thoughts develop and a discussion meanders around a bit.
Please don't put a general control on the ability to copy and paste.
Regards
George
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How about someone creates a PDF file that could be downloaded which contains the recipes, ideas and techniques we have on cr0. This could make it alot easier for members and non members to print out recipes without having to print out all the comments and chat that generally goes with recipe threads. Also this file could be freely avaiable on file sharing networks, homepages ect
This could also make cr0 better known and bring in more members.
A PDF file isnt editable (i think, or another non editable file) as opposed to a word document which is. This would in effect contain a copyright statement + disclaimer, a link to cr0 and some of the best recipes we have.
It could even contain photos to each recipe and/or step by step photos and techniques which would help newbies create the BIR dishes. Basically a free e-book which could be used as a reference guide for everyones enjoyment.
The advantage is, that if a free e-book was available it would help prevent people copying recipes and selling them, (which they can do anyway) if its free why pay for it?. The book could be downloadable from any of our members own sites (free of charge), torrent and a host of other sharing programs. This would make our site better known to the wider community. Im not suggesting all recipes should be included, and of course each persons recipe would/could only be published with their permission.But as this site gets bigger and bigger and more information is exchanged there could be a need to distill the essense and share it with other curry enthusiasts who havent discovered us yet.
Also it would make a backup copy of recipes. This might be one solution to stop people making cash off the work we have put in for cr0. For me the spirit of cr0 is the freely sharing of information, ideas and recipes, a mini community dedicated to recreating our favourite BIR food.
Just a thought. :P
Ashes
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And a great thought/idea too! :D. Perhaps we could combine this with my suggestion elsewhere to create an Ebook and the proceeds go to UNESCO or something worthwhile for kidz. At least then we may get some financial return for our efforts that would contribute to helping the sad poor world that we have benefited from with our curries!
Trust in your trip
CP
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Hi Ashes
A PDF file isnt editable (i think, or another non editable file)
Unfortunately PDFs are editable and there is no such thing as an uneditable/uncopyable text document, so that scuppers that idea. In my opinion it would also be a very bad idea to neatly package up the two years' worth of curry making effort that has gone into this site by tens of contributing members, and freely distribute it to all and sundry. Anyone who is seriously into the restaurant style curry making should relish trawling through this forum and by doing so it also gives new members an idea of our goals and what has gone before, so to speak.
For me the spirit of cr0 is the freely sharing of information, ideas and recipes, a mini community dedicated to recreating our favourite BIR food.
I agree but I think it should be kept within the confines of this forum.
I hate to say it, but while the copyright of any individual information belongs to whoever posted it on the forum, the copyright of the forum as a whole belongs to Stew, the admin. The onus, therefore, when any copyright infringement is brought to our attention, is on Stew to serve notice of copyright breach and if that fails to produce results to then get heavy with an official lawyer/solicitor letter and so on.
YF
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"there is always some unscrupulous fat bastard out there who is quite willing to sell his first born for profit !"
so you know who it is then CC ;D
I dont think you will stop it, any member could leave
a secure site then sell on ebay.
You could also blame the coop
for selling onions, who's to blame ?
Would it be fair to exclude future members by
making this site hard to join or have a look around,
then provide feedback.
Anyway dont you think it's the technique that's required
and years of practise,
Loads of stuff for sale on ebay anyway,
and some duff books in the shops too
and we all know who he/she/it is !
lets not forget all the other cooking sites out there
giving all for free too.
An Ebook on ebay for a charity sounds like a great idea,
that should stop them. if the price is right.
We could include links to this site too.
curry on,
graeme.
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Yellow Fingers
Anyone who is seriously into the restaurant style curry making should relish trawling through this forum
With respect thats rediculous! Trawling through 2 yrs worth of posts can be tiresome and time consuming. if youre looking for a specific piece of information it would be better to have it to hand. 2 years of information now, soon 3 years .....
I never suggested any of the information is uncopyable. anyone with one eye and a ballpoint can copy! ::)
"In my opinion it would also be a very bad idea to neatly package up the two years' worth of curry making effort that has gone into this site by tens of contributing members, and freely distribute it to all and sundry."
Why? This site is the culmination of that effort. Free of charge too to "all and sundry".
Youre not worried some undesirables might get hold of the recipes surely?
If you search the net youll find that several sites have compiled information, e-books, recipes and software. There are indeed files available on this very site. This isnt some kind of radicle new idea, its what people have been doing since the beginning of the internet.
As far as i know swf files are not editable or atleast you need a special program to convert them. If someone is going to go to the effort of ripping off this site then its going to be very difficult to stop them, unless you create a closed site, but doesnt that defeat the object?
Given the amount of information on this site, i think it would be a very good idea to compile the information. We arent trying to keep this site a secret, like you said there are "10?s" of people who have contributed, wouldnt it better if it were 100?s?
Im sure Stew would enjoy the extra clicks and who knows maybe someone will one day arrive and tell us the "curry secret". ;D. Creating an information file (e-book) which is freely distributed is free advertising, this site could easily be the biggest curry site on the internet, maybe in a few years time Stew ends up selling it to Google ;)
Like i said, it was just a thought, trying to think bigger, id rather see this site grow and expand than to become an elitist corner.
Regards Ashes
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I think the best thing to do is to promote cr0 as much as possible so all the curry heads out there can find us for free. A lot of the problem espcially with ebay scammers is that they appeal to the right people, before cr0 I had bought a few bits of crap of ebay hoping this be the one and im sure a few other memebers have as well. If people knew of this site and the free information thats available the ebay scammers will no longer have a product to sell.
As someone else mentioned it's not just the recipes its the general banter and the information that comes out from it thats just as useful. Without reading through some posts and asking questions on here the recipes on their own wouldn't be much more useful than a copy of the KD book to a complete BIR novice.
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Please don't put a general control on the ability to copy and paste.
I agree George...I also copy and paste...recipes....and sell them on e-bay...no I don't! ;)
Seriously though....I copy and paste recipes, to print them, to try them......so, as George says, please do not prevent people from copying and pasting! :)
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And to be honest following a recipe wont let you recreate a BIR dish, you also need years of experience and technique (which I believe personally I am now at the stage where I have just advanced from scratching the surface)
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And to be honest following a recipe wont let you recreate a BIR dish, you also need years of experience and technique (which I believe personally I am now at the stage where I have just advanced from scratching the surface)
Mark
I have the greatest respect for your views but I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on this point. I'm not saying you're wrong but my own viewpoint is the opposite, for what it's worth. I don't think anyone needs more than a few minutes of experience and technique if a recipe is well-written enough and reveals enough of what you need to know.
I suggest the issue is a knowledge gap in terms of ingrdedients and/or (more likely) the methods. If you have all the knowledge, I don't believe much practice will be required at all.
Regards
George
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Hmm, a hot debate still goes on! I feel it is a topic I can't add any more to. Great cooks can do things with the minimum of experience George I agree, but not everyone here has the benefit of being experienced in cooking. As I have said before, one of the 'secrets' as I was taught, was to cook using the eyes and nose as the guide, that goes for Western as well as Asian cooking, and I truly believe that ability is gained with experience. I doubt if you will ever see an Asian cook taste the meals they produce; they just know. I mentioned that many years ago (in Abu Dhabi) a few of us (curry cooks) both Asian, Arab,and Western decided to write the ultimate curry cook book based mainly on techniques/methods not just recipes, as we all recognised this was the key. If you recall we found straight away that recipes we put together with the techniques.methods were often better done by others than we made ourselves, especially the Asian women who were not trained 'professional' cooks. Each time we did an analysis to see why this should be so we got a shrug and an 'I dont know I just did it' for an answer. But in the final analysis the Asian cooks had grown up with curry cooking as taught by their Mothers and family. So experience was the case; and we futher tested this by asking them to cook Western dishes, which often turned out to be very good but not as we expeceted them to be froma Western perspective!
So that passionate debate has raged for amny years
CP
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I don't think anyone needs more than a few minutes of experience and technique if a recipe is well-written enough and reveals enough of what you need to know.....I suggest the issue is a knowledge gap in terms of ingrdedients and/or.....methods......If you have all the knowledge, I don't believe much practice will be required at all.
I agree with that George. After all, BIR curry cooking is hardly "rocket science"....is it? ('though I guess it often appears so! :o)
So, if we write our recipes with sufficient depth and clarity, anyone should be able to replicate them...without much more than a frying pan, cooker , a few ingredients and minimal experience.....oh, and an internet connection and an e-bay account of course ;)....and don't forget that rusty Swiss Army knife Woks Up!....... :P
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.....however, back to the subject of copyright issues and pirating:
What is the real issue or concern?
Is it that anyone can access the recipes (and any other information) on cr0 and use them? Isn't that what cr0 is for anyway?
Or is it that some people can (try to) sell recipes (or any other information) that they acquired from cr0? Do we (should we) really care? Do you have evidence that this is actually happening anyway CP?
On balance, I think I agree mostly with CK's and YF's suggestions.....to promote cr0 as much as possible and to assert our copyright with those that blatantly abuse them. Usually, a slap on the wrist is all that's required (as some people here will be able to testify :P).
That way:
- more people will know about cr0 and know that it is free
- fewer people will therefore be inclined to go elsewhere for (and pay for) BIR recipes
- "membership" of this site will continue to grow
- there will be more information (and recipes) contributed to cr0 accordingly
- Stew will earn more sponsorship money to maintain and grow cr0 (or to buy a beer or 2! ;))
- ...and, one day, maybe, just maybe, a BIR chef will drop by for an interrogation....I mean chat! ::)
- ...and pigs may fly of course ;)
- ...alas, we can but pray :P
Toodleloo! ;D
PS: Stew, do we/you have a copyright statement somewhere on this site? If not, we probably should?
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(in Abu Dhabi) a few of us (curry cooks) both Asian, Arab,and Western decided to write the ultimate curry cook book based mainly on techniques/methods not just recipes, as we all recognised this was the key. If you recall we found straight away that recipes we put together with the techniques.methods were often better done by others than we made ourselves, especially the Asian women who were not trained 'professional' cooks. Each time we did an analysis to see why this should be so we got a shrug and an 'I dont know I just did it' for an answer.
I don't know the answer but here's my guess. I've had delicious curries cooked by an Asian friend who's now returned home. I saw everything she did with my own eyes. I provided the ingredients unless she fished some secret spice out of her bag and used that too, which seems unlikely. The end result was really good. When I tried to recreate the same dish it simply didn't taste as good; something was missing.
I attribute the difference 100% to my failure at observation/note-taking and her failure (perhaps) whatever the best intentions, to explain/clarify everything that was taking place. There can be no other reason. I suggest your 'shrug' responses were due either to (a) a non-preparedness to reveal and/or (b) inability to explain their recipe(s) in clear and accurate terms.
Regards
George
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You are right George, the shrug was only because they could not explain why they did it better than me (us). We had a really good couple of friends in Berkshire who we used to socialise and eat with. Angeli (Hari's wife) was an excellent Indian cook and very proud of it, There never was any secret ingredient and I used watch her cook on a regular basis. In fact she never really used many spices. She tried fo 5 years to tech me how to make cahapatis like she did, and failed. I tried to cook her curries and did not quite make it, even when she was standing with me!
CP
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Morning Team,
Here is the registration agreement (SEE BELOW), what can we add then, i suggest the following:
ALL MATERIAL POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE IS COPYRIGHT OF cr0.co.uk AND YOU AGREE NOT TO COPY OR POST THIS INFORMATION WITHOUT GIVING CREDIT TO cr0.co.uk AND OR THE AUTHOR OF THE INFORMATION.
FAILURE TO DO SO MAY RESULT IN YOU BEING BURNED IN HELL FOR EVER.
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.
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Looks pretty good! We all know no one will take any notice, especially the ebay scammers, but at least it's in writing!
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Hmm, its a start perhaps something a bit more formal, otherwise I wouldn't bother. I don't really care I suppose, I just won't post anything which I have worked hard over the years to produce, I will however send stuff privately to members who I think I can trust. I was leading up to producing a full blown video by a genuine BIR chef, and I was going to make it available on CRO. I was going to pay for the production and hope that we could recover some costs as a donation to a childrens charity. I will have to think of a way of doing this, as it still is a mission objective for me and this site, but I will not do this for the benefit of scammers.
CP
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... There never was any secret ingredient and I used watch her cook on a regular basis. In fact she never really used many spices. She tried fo 5 years to tech me how to make cahapatis like she did, and failed. I tried to cook her curries and did not quite make it, even when she was standing with me!
CP
Frustrating isn't it! My Asian friend used minimal ingredients, too. I simply don't know why we don't appear able to cook as well as our teachers.
I would give examples of difficult tasks as like plastering a wall to get a flat, high quality finish in one hit. I've yet to master that. I think it could take days/weeks of practice. Other examples of difficult tasks would be like those which used to get a laugh on TV's 'Generation Game'.
But I can't see how cooking Indian food falls into the same level of difficulty, as long as you describe everything in detail like variety and the weight of onions, and exactly how brown you need to fry them.
Regards
George
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Oh no! I enter a thread titled "Copyright Issues, pirating" and get greeted with a discussion on Asian mates in Abu Dhabi and how much experience is needed to cook a curry!!!! :o
Why can't people stick to the topic of the thread! Why not start a new thread guys? Maybe title it "how much experience is need to cook a decent curry"? I dunno?
Why don't moderators encourage this?
Maybe people would then be able to better find what they are looking for it!?
Sorry to harp on guys, but crikey!? ::) ;)
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Stop Moaning ;D
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I like the bit were they burn in Hell, as I'm a good friend & colleague of the High Dark Lord SaTAn, I have been given the exulted position of Grand high executioner of Hell & sourounding Underworlds which means I'm in charge of all burning rites, basically i hold the Matches ;D, The darkside is cooking an eBay scammer near you & Hell is on our side matey & asbestos underpants wont save yaaaaarrr (Bloody Pirate alter Ego ;D).
Want the secret to the taste? Grab a corpuscle fountain Pen & sign ya Soul over & its yours dam you! ;D
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Oh no! I enter a thread titled "Copyright Issues, pirating" and get greeted with a discussion on Asian mates in Abu Dhabi and how much experience is needed to cook a curry!!!! :o
Why can't people stick to the topic of the thread! Why not start a new thread guys? Maybe title it "how much experience is need to cook a decent curry"? I dunno?
Why don't moderators encourage this?
Maybe people would then be able to better find what they are looking for it!?
Sorry to harp on guys, but crikey!? ::) ;)
I dont think its an issue personally. I guess it depends on whether we are trying to create a clear concise online guide or engage in debate/discussion.
My feeling is the former benefits occasional users, the later benefits the more dedicated users who will read every post anyway.
I prefer the forum favouring the later.
And shouldnt you have posted this in a separate thread titled "keeping threads on topic" to discuss this ;)
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Et tu brute ;D
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;D ;D
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Oh no! I enter a thread titled "Copyright Issues, pirating" and get greeted with a discussion on Asian mates in Abu Dhabi and how much experience is needed to cook a curry!!!! :o...Why can't people stick to the topic of the thread! Why not start a new thread guys?
Woks Up
This is a difficult one for me! Firstly, I'm sorry for being largely responsible for taking this thread's discussion a bit away from copyright issues. I share your concern for this forum and I feel the same way for other forums which I frequent. Relevant posts make the thread more valuable, I feel, for future reading. We'd either need to avoid taking the discussion off-track in the first place, or face heavy editing/re-sorting later, which would be a huge job. But if we stick to the former, it would probably stifle the flow of debate. Instead, we tend to meander around a bit and then come back to the main topic. So although I used to take your line, I now take the view "if you can't beat them, join them".
Another example is the interesting ideas which arise when people introduce themselves under the relevant category. Then the discussion gets going re. base sauces, cooking methods; anything. You might not think to look under that heading for anything other than pleasantries but it's another rich seam of information.
Regards
George