Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: DARTHPHALL on October 15, 2006, 05:22 PM
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Question for those who have a Bir with" The taste" Or "the Smell".
If you buy two identical Curries with the Taste & keep one for the next day & re-heat it you find that "the Taste" or smell has almost if not all gone, i have asked this countless times, does someone else notice this?
If so (this is for you who are Chefs) does this not indicate it to be a flavor enhancer.
Common this may end up being an important clue peeps.
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I couldn't resist replying Darth. I asked this question many times and many years ago. A chemist friend and fellow curry head believed it was to do the the chemical breakdown that occurs when it cools/freezes and is the heated up again (curries are a chemical process). For example when oil is passed through and superheated in a cracking plant (refinery) it produces several new products like petrol diesel and paraffin, none of which smell like each other or the original oil. There are also various enzymes on the loose in curries, some good an some bad, and their function is to break down food and create conditions for bacterial growth which completes the decomposition process. Smell is a gas laden with molecules which we are sensitive to, the process described above also affects this. I know there are a few professionals in the chemistry/physics fields lurking so I expect we shall have some more informed answers Darth. Perhaps you should ask Jeeves ::)
Check your email
Vee haff vays of making zee curries ya know ;D
CP
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All sounds feasible ..but all the Curries i make generally taste the same or better when frozen, re-heated etc..
Bir Curries seem to go bland & very mediocre, what is it that makes home-made SO different..
Forever Dark.
.....DARTHPHALL....."Bringing order to a Galaxy near you"!
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Followed C P ' s lead and found this info Darth -
Most flavour molecules, that we detect with our receptors on our tongues, are fat soluble. During cooking, some of the molecules are dissolved into the fats and oils present in the food, but cooking is a relatively quick event given the size of some of these flavour molecules. Thermodynamics come to our aid in that given enough time most anything will mix themselves together, heat just speeds up the process of distribution. So your curry from yesterday tastes better as more of the flavour molecules leak out of their confines (perhaps the cells of the food item) into the fats and oils they are soaking in. Then your tongue becomes coated in the fats/oils where the taste sensors can come into contact with the flavour molecules, in a higher concentration than yesterday. This explains why on the whole, foods with the fat removed appear less flavourful unless the recipe is modified to counter the loss. The fats and oils also act to hold the taste to the tongue for longer than say, water soluble flavours. So there you go!
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Sounds so much better than mine ;). Thanks CC
CP
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Heat and time also cause chemical changes, CC. In particular, a change away from the original taste.
I find that things heated up (not just curries) just don't have the same fresh taste, although the 'depth' (or complexity) may well have changed. I can honestly say that personally I have never had a curry which tastes as good as or better than the original when reheated the next day. It tastes OK, yes. But it tastes different.
At best, the spices might be more pronounced - and I wonder if that's what people are latching on to? But I find the garlic and fresh coriander tastes are less and there is usually a bitterness that wasn't there before (or is it a missing sweetness? I don't know).
This happens with curries from my favourite restaurants and with those I cook myself.
The other thing to consider is that since the curries we are all apparently looking for are cooked fresh, is the subject of reheating them the next day connected with finding the secret or not?
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:-\ Its a tough one, the quest continues, but there is some healthy debate & its what this forum needs as it has gone quiet..too quiet.. :)
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This makes me wonder if we are chasing the same "taste"
When I reheat a frozen curry with the "taste" the wonderfull aroma fills the kitchen.
If I reheat a curry from a takeaway, without the taste, it becimes very ordinairy and oily.
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Its all about depth, and i think we are out of ours ;D
CP
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I suggest it may be something to do with aromatic ingredients. The best examples are perhaps black pepper (western cooking as well as Indian), fenugreek leaves, and a mix of aromatic ingredients often referred to as garam masala.
These are added at, or near to, the end of cooking, largely in order to preserve the aroma until the dish reaches the table. Otherwise, why not add all the ingredients at the beginning of the cooking process?
The longer the period since the aromatics are added, the lower the aroma.
Regards
George
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Good point George - there is a staging process when incorporating certain ingredients . Salt / pepper are traditionally added at the beginning then adjusted . Garam masala is usually added toward the completion of a dish because of its more delicate nature ( where prolonged cooking would nullify the taste ) and perhaps produce and unwanted result . This statement is based on both perception and personnel experience . Realizing that tastes do vary , some people might beg do differ and prefer the " hard edge " of well cooked spicing .
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Nope, I don't disagree at all. This is very to my cooking process, and I can assure you also the way most Asian cooks work. I think if you blast the spices to death then you end up with a nothingness, e.g. no depth and no ltitude in spice flavours. As we have discussed before, all spices roast, cook at different rates, and the 'chemical composition' of each spice reacts differently with others. Hence the careful staged addition approach is the best. However, and there is always at least one, when making bases this does not necessarily follow for some of the methods I have seen.
Happy Cooks are a delight to work with......
CP
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Could this imply that if when cooking a Curry that we should be able to tell if we have got it right as soon as its ready, & not the day after which is the general consensus on the forum.
As in a Bir the Curry is cooked very quick, is this a better way to keep the Curry taste rather than cook & eat the following day, one thing Ive noticed a good tasting curry can be cooked quite easily, but a curry with the taste or smell (this depends on your perception) needs to be quick cooked?
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When you eat at a restaurant the curry is cooked and on your table in minutes with both the taste and smell. So leaving your own efforts for a day before eating may improve the flavour, but if we're trying to match the restaurants then it shouldn't be necessary. So the answer to your question is that both the taste and smell should be in the curry the moment it is cooked, and I don't know about you, but I still can't achieve both and have never achieved the smell.
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No i cant get it (the Taste/Smell) & yes i agree.
Recently i have noticed that with the Oven method that the heat of the Chili powder diminishes after its cooked & even more so the next day regardless of it turning out excellent Curries.
I think we have come to another positive conclusion, in that if it ain't right after its cooked..It ain't right ;D.
Looks like I'll be getting a Hot Wok for Christmas after all :D.
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For me the benefit of leaving a curry that you have made to eat later is that it gives your senses a chance to freshen up. When you have been standing over curry's and spices frying for a while I find that I become used to it, almost desensitised to the smell and aromas. I'm sure this makes as much difference as any gain in flavour from it sitting there over night.
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I used to believe that cooking curries desensitised your senses but I did an experiment - which I've already posted a while ago - but in essence I blasted my senses by cooking a base sauce and a couple of curries while I waited for a takeaway curry delivery. I made sure I ordered from a place that I knew made curries that had the taste and smell. When it arrived, and despite the huge curry smell already in my house, when I opened the door I immediately got a waft of the "smell" from the takeaway. That's how powerful the smell is that I'm trying unsuccessfully to replicate.
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Sorry YF amongst all the info on this site i/we have to ingest i missed that experiment, so at least we all know now, I understand what CK means as well, after cooking all the Garlic i put in my Curries.
I think this warrants being in hints & tips, your experiment outcome YF as a good indicator of success.
Maybe the blandness of Bir Curries the next day indicates also the much lower amount of Spices in them also?
The more i cook Curries that taste exceptionally good the more i think i overspice & i have to agree with those who put very few spices in their Curries.
Here is a quick example of one which i have had very close results with even though it is not as tasty as other recipes i use.
Spices used for Vindalloo/Phall.
Ground Cumin.
""""""" Coriander.
Chili powder.
Fenugreek leaves.
Garam Masala.
Thats it!
And oddly enough this recipe is the one that once in a Blue Moon produces the Smell as with my Favorite Bir.
The only other ingredients which i think there is much less of is the Tin Tomato's,Ketchup & Puree.
I would be interested to know of all your recipes which produces the closest Vindalloo for you & see how much variation there really is between them all, as this may be of great help to us all as i get a feeling there Will be very little in it.
This one of the reasons why i have gone back to my roots of cooking, you can get a bit lost cooking curries & you get to a point were they are too good & maybe like me you have missed the point, cooking an exceptionally tasting Curry is not hard, but cooking a very close copy of a Bir is.
I agree on the point about Oil being an important carrier, not matter how unhealthy, but I'm not sure were the cut off point is in quantity although i am generally using 500ml in a 4 serving sized dish.
I will start a new thread as i think interesting points have been brought up here, thanks guys.
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This is the most fascinating part of curry making...
Ive noticed that too much black pepper can kill a curry dead, black pepper for some reason masks the flavour of some spices.
I hope the "secret" isnt some instant packet flavoring some curry houses use to add a more meaty or more vegetably taste (like oxo cube or something). Id like to think of it as technique, but alot of ppl here have very professional equipment and still cant reproduce the flavour. So its not just cooking on a high heat, after all, balti places (real ones) cook on restaurant cookers but their flavours are completely different and lack a BIR taste.
It seems alot of places like to make up base sauces the day before and this will produce a curry which is "smoother" and slightly more complex in taste, as the flavours mix together they are harder to distinguish, but i dont think its as simple as this, otherwise we would have found it by now ::).
The only way to find out is to ask or pay a curry house or chef? Curry is so complex it might always remain a secret ingredient
Ashes
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I agree ashes. I still can't quite get that taste, aroma yes, but that finished BIR taste no. But, I still think there isn't a 'secret' ingredient; just technique, the right equipment, and perhaps the base. But on the latter, BIRs use lots of different base recipes and still achieve what we all seek.
Inspector Ranjit Clouseau to the rescue, voila!
CP
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For me the benefit of leaving a curry that you have made to eat later is that it gives your senses a chance to freshen up. When you have been standing over curry's and spices frying for a while I find that I become used to it, almost desensitised to the smell and aromas. I'm sure this makes as much difference as any gain in flavour from it sitting there over night.
Same for me, I get a bit spiced out!
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I agree ashes. I still can't quite get that taste, aroma yes, but that finished BIR taste no. But, I still think there isn't a 'secret' ingredient; just technique, the right equipment, and perhaps the base. But on the latter, BIRs use lots of different base recipes and still achieve what we all seek.
....but...CP!!! You claim to be "in the business"! Try using sawdust with the "right technique" (including the right equipment) and see how far that gets you!! ::)
...clearly, getting the taste...and smell....and appearance (for that matter) is all about the correct combination of ingredients AND technique (including, therefore, equipment)! To suggest otherwise is clearly illogical!.....IMHO of course! ;)
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I don't claim, I am in the business and have been for the past four years, and have been cooking and learning about curries for probably nigh on 40 years. But do remember I amd not a BIR and don't claim to be. My approach, methods etc are different. I think your response is out of step with the light hearted approach I have, so I would not be so stupid enought stir fry sawdust. :-X
I have never stated that one particular process/method/spice is the answer, and I think the seasoned guys and gals on here have exhausted these topics. What I am trying to say across several threads if you look, is that it is no good getting the excat ingredients if you don't know how to cook and what techniques are required, similarly you can be a very good cook and can not cook curries to save your life! You must also know what ingredients will or will not work with eachother. This is quite a complex thing we are dealing with, and experience and practise play a big part. As I have replied to CK on another thread, I still have to get my mind around the simple objective, which is to replicate a BIR in every good and bad way including using dodgy ingredients. So don't lets get hung up on these things. That is why I asked for a hints 7 tips section so we can put the refined answers in one place and not have to make excuses etc when we cock-up on different threads.
So if you want to shout or rant at me forget it, I can spend my time better teaching people who want to learn, and I shall leave this Forum.
CP
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Awww.....don't get all upset and defensive CP! :o
I was simply using an extreme example to illustrate my point and counteract an argument that has been frequently expressed here (not necessarily by you)!
I'm sure you can understand and accept that?
I'm also sure that your inputs and comments are highly valued by all members here :)
Kind regards, :)
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I value Cp's Input greatly & so do many on this forum, he has injected some fresh debate & new ideas & of course has given a good excuse to use the word "ANAL"! :o
Woks up go to your room ;D ;D Lol.
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OK guys, rant over, and thanks for the apology WoksUp. Toys are back in the pram.
CP ;D
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These aren't "Anal"! toys are they ? :o
Sorry in advance but I'm in a silly mood tonight (Again) :P :P ;D
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Stop giving away my secrets Darth. They are supposed to be confidential between Master and his Apprentice, I was going to use some dark humour here but I forget that ladies are present.
Byeeeee, off to the Pub to gear up for a blazing curry session later.
CP
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CP
Please do not lSo if you want to shout or rant at me forget it, I can spend my time better teaching people who want to learn, and I shall leave this Forum.
CP
CP,
PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE THIS FORUM :'(
All I can say is I for one really appreciate your Positive input into this site your comments are very informative in depth and sensible plus the fact you are only to happy to help and advise others with great tips too I might add.
This Website would definitely Lose a POSITIVE Asset if you left.
There's a lot of Bitchy-ness in the rank's lately WHY and what's the point Phew !
Layne :-\
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There is an absolute wealth of information on this forum that has been created by both the foundling curry fathers ( and mothers ) and the " next wave " . The ground work that was laid by these industrious souls helped to lay the foundation for the rest of us to build upon . Individuals such as C P have succeeded in both augmenting and strengthening this foundation through informative and knowledgeable posts .
CC
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OK guys, rant over, and thanks for the apology WoksUp. Toys are back in the pram.
CP ;D
There you go CP! As I suspected, everybody loves you! :)
...but, just to clarify, I didn't actually apologise...you see...it wasn't me that threw my toys out of the pram!....but I do forgive you! ;)
"Enough of this Zwilling J A Henkels at thirty paces!" I say (though, personally, I prefer my rusty old swiss army knife! :P)
So please continue with your interesting and informative posts!
Group hug anybody? ;)::)
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Ive told you before those of us that have turned to the Darkside don't do group hugs, we do mind hugs ;D.
Your ever evil & Dark companion.
.....DARTHPHALL.....
Back on the subject of taste smell, i did an experiment with Spices yesterday & it seems that if you just chuck them in & cook for just a few minutes they are really evident in your Curry,(potentially & logically a Bir can use less this way) do you all think that all our cooking in various ways could be a wrong concept & that we should just warm the base bung in the Spices cook for say 3-5 Min's & thats that.
And has anyone found that Chilli powder loses its heat with cooking longer & is definitely less potent the next day although waiting next day does allow the curry to be tasty (but its that home-made tasty ;) no matter how nice it isn't Bir).
I get the feeling that you cant really get close to Bir taste unless you do a quick cook because of the way the Spices are affected by a quick fry & serve method, i will try some other experiments over the next few weeks, any ideas peeps? :-\
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Darth
>has anyone found that Chilli powder loses its heat with
>cooking longer & is definitely less potent the next
I must say I haven't noticed any decrease in chilli heat over time. Also, Indian food dishes in the supermarkets would become milder for every day they were on the shelf, which seems unlikely. Another thought is that security type 'pepper spray' devices like some Police forces use are based on chillis (some of them anyway). These would have a very short shelf life if the strength of the active ingredient went rapidly downhill. But that's not the case.
Also, I find Inciaan food mainatins its quality well over a few hours or even the next day, like when served at a buffet. I don't find that Chinese food fares anywhere near as well.
Regards
George
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Chilli heat is chemical and spices contain oils generally and both evaporate under heat, but how much i have no idea. Now whether its actually the oil that evaporates or whether its actually the oil hitching a ride on water droplets i dont know,ask a scientist, but if you fry chips alot you will have to clean your cookerhood filter alot. Chemicals do evaporate otherwise you?d never be able to get a hit of your pipe ;)
A point about the smell.. Yellow Fingers did a very interesting experiment to see if he got desensitised, he said the BIR smell seemed alot stronger and he could smell "the smell", (read his post). This was an excellent experiment and showed that the "smell" is something particular to certain BIRs. This is also what others have found, that the smell is much more over-powering than the ones we do at home, sounds very simular to the kind of smell that you get when you cook a dish with lots of garlic.
I would think to retain as much flavour as possible you would need to simmer (very carefully) your base sauce. Professional chefs never boil their stock.. all that steam carries flavour, i would imagine its the same for base sauces.. Darth talked a alot about the oven method.. the oven warms food slower than direct heat, this makes the onions sweeter but could also release the spices better/differently.. im sure CP knows alot more than me about spice releasing.
Ashes
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I do understand what you are all saying but none the less recently i have noticed a drop in heat the next day on all the Dishes I've cooked, it is fresh newly opened Chilli powder so its not down to age degradation (unlike myself :'().
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Maybe you have become the ultimate chilli head.. there is nothing that can touch you darth,
youll end up sucking on dorset nagas just to get a mild hit ;)
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I agree with Darth that Chilli, especially fresh, loses heat over a period of time and I think Ashes has hit the nail on the head regarding process. I would add my theory but not necessarily correct; the capsicain oil which is the lethal hot stuff in Chillis changes its chemical structure and concentration when cooked (try deep frying those squat pointy chillis I think they are called Bells - they are delicious and not too hot after frying). When we started serious cooking, e.g. outside catering we had to get the hang of Chillis and what they do. We often found when clearing up after peoples parties that the hot curry which everyone said they would not eat had gone and there was always some mild stuff left. We did our research, and we found out three things:
1. The hot curry was no longer that hot (we used to dip some bread in the bits of sauce left).
2. It was the other ingredients and the richness of the sauce that off set the heat factor, e.g. oil and tomato paste.
3. If we added an acidifier like lemon, tomatoes, or vinegar at the end to crack open the final flavour, the heat factor would diminish slowly over a period of time.
This is why I say never taste a curry when you are making it, learn to use you other senses. I will agre with others who have posted that you can get desensitized during cooking which will misguide you on get the balance correct. I always ask my wife or son to do a taste check at the end as I can gauge their reactions and make any adjustments without tasting.
Just a note on 3. Has anyone posted before on the use of acidifiers? When I was taught, the chef always used an acidifier to bring out the final flavour, whether this be a base or dish.. I was told this was a regular BIR technique as well as a normal approach for ethnic dishes. Maybe this is one of the things you are searching for.
Happy searching
CP
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Tell us more about acidifiers oh mighty Prawn :)
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Does the amount of Oil in the Curry also play a part on the preservation of the heat by Chilli powder or fresh Chillies?
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In my opinion yes. Try cooking the same dish twice; one with minimum oil and one with lots. You will see what happens, And my guess is the one with minumum oil will lose its fierceness first and the second will mellow better. Also look at the colour of the oil, the redness is mainly due to the chilli powder and turmeric.. So one could assume thats is where it goes. See this interesting link to the Vietnam daily :-\
http://www.saigontimesweekly.saigonnet.vn/issue31/business.htm (http://www.saigontimesweekly.saigonnet.vn/issue31/business.htm)
Must eat, before I go Hypo'
Cheers
CP
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Now whether its actually the oil that evaporates or whether its actually the oil hitching a ride on water droplets i dont know...Professional chefs never boil their stock.. all that steam carries flavour
Ashes
I'm very interested in your views and other folks' too.
But my understanding is a bit different. I don't believe much oil evaporates. That's why you can boil/simmer off water until the oil re-surfaces in Indian cooking.
Professional (western) chefs regularly boil their stocks/sauces (at the end) in order to get rid of surplus water and concentrate the flavour of what's left. That's my understanding, anyway. I've read it in books, seen it done on TV and concentrated the flavour of stocks and sauces like that, myself.
Regards
George
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This does seem logical as with mostly Bir dishes you taste the hot Spicy Oil around your mouth but with supermarket dishes it is a different story, so Oil is a very big decider (Again!), but it does look, to get that sort of effect that you would use large amounts of Oil & therefore must be skimmed, but it looks like a very important thing about bir style cooking technique is knowing how to make it Oily but not too Oily, i seem to go one way or another when it comes to Oil quantity, much too learn have i :-[ .
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Many times i have seen a chef skim oil from a curry and put it into a ghee pot, many people have said that if you frying spice paste in oil then you'll know when it's ready as the oil comes to the surface, i think the same could be said for bir's, maybe thats how they know how to have it oily but not too oily.
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Cheers John for that, need more input.
00011"The Taste"101101111011101010101001111100010110.
Looks like i will be in the Kitchen tomorrow morning before the missus gets up to cook the Roast. ;)
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Yes George i agree, i didnt mean it sound like it was a problem. The only problem ive experienced is when spices are too old, for some reason the taste disappears, i presume the oils evaporate, although if stored correctly i think whole spices can survive for up to 1 year? or maybe less. The shelf life of ground spices isnt very much, a few monthes i think?
As for stock, simmering is the only way ive been told to make stock, a good friend of mine showed me the basics of a fine french chicken stock, (he used to make fantastic stock). I used to add it to my Pat Chapman creations (15 yrs back) and it certainly improved them. ;)
The important thing with stock is to reduce the it down to a concerntrated liquid, it can then be strained (several times if so wished) and made into demi glace.
Personally i wouldnt add chicken stock to my curries as its the vegetable taste that makes the curry imo. Besides the base sauce is effectively a spicey vegetable stock.
Another point, someone said that they had bought base sauce and it had "the smell/taste", if this is true then its to do with spices and/or technique or maybe the base sauce was made with reclaimed oil. That would also help to get the taste off to a good start.
Regards Ashes
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Yes Ashes, long and slow is the standard technique. My UCB starts in megalitres and reduces to about a quarter. Also if you are doing long and slow, don't bother to chop the ingredients small, lob them in in big chunks or dont chop them (Garlic).
As you say, in Western cooking (of stocks) You never boil, especially chicken stock, always slow simmer.
Maybe the point on oil evaporation is really to to with the airborne emulsion that rises from the pan. I think kitchen walls, and filters provide that evidence :( :-\
Happy cooking
CP
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The important thing with stock is to reduce the it down to a concerntrated liquid, it can then be strained (several times if so wished) and made into demi glace.
Regards Ashes
Oooh DEMI GLACE :o Now we are talking I'm very impressed !
Ashes have you made these ?
Layne
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Hi Ashes, yes grinding methods are still a great source of debate, and the debate rages in the coffee world also. From the Indian perspective there are three methods of grinding, stone milled, burr milled, and smash milled. The first is using two stones and rub the spices between them, the fine powder is gently blown of if need be. The burr mill comprises two steel burred wheels or cones (similar to the pepper grinder in principle). The gap is set to permit the particles to be ground to the size you want. The smash grinder is your typical moulinex electric blade type.
What are the benefits? Well the first two produce a better cooler process and therefore the flavours are not damaged and the result will be a finer more flavoursome spice powder. However, the stone method is very slow and tasking, and the Spice Burr Mills cost a fortune and are very very expensive. The third type is cheaper, quicker, but does quite a lot of damage to the spice grains as it heats the spice up through friction and it produces a different shape of grain that can produce the grittines Ashes mentions. Years ago I was doing a Geology course and had to write an essay on the differences between and benefits of Desert and Sea sands. Years later an Indian friend (and scientist) related the sands to spices for me. If you need more info contact me but trust me this were smoothness lies.
Again Ashes is right in that you can test for grittiness to some degree with your fingers but it does depend on how sensitive your fingers are. I would also add that sometimes you want the spices coarsley ground for slow release of flavours.
How so you stop grittiness then? Well first you must slow fry the spices on a very very low heat and you must not let them catch. Also you can 'crack' the spices by adding an acidifier (see Spices in Hints & Tips). And as Ashes points out, if you uses a Moulinex type of grinder, only grind by pulsing in short bursts so that the spice keeps somewhat cool.
Hope this helps. Maybe it shoud go in hints and tips if you are OK with it.
CP
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Yes Ashes, long and slow is the standard technique...As you say, in Western cooking (of stocks) You never boil, especially chicken stock, always slow simmer.
I agree but you make it sound like I'm wrong and it's Ashes and you vs me!
I know I'm right and so are you. I'm tired or discussing it any more. Do whatever works for you!
Regards
George
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Thanks CP i suspected you knew a bit about spices ;D
Layne, nope ive never done demi glace >:( but it tastes amazing, usually alcohol is reserved for drinking purposes only ;D but Pat Chapman suggested wine could be used instead of stock in his quick curry book.. i have never tried this and doubt i ever will..I respect PC for his knowledge and experience and his pioneering in the curry world but i have never tasted a PC curry that is like typical BIR.. although i have done some mighty tasted dishes from some of his books.. My favourite is "Favourite Restaurant Curries" thats the second book.. its got a wealth of information but not about how to create the BIR flavour we are all after. The recipes can always be adapted to the tecniques we already use..
Regards Ashes
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Im not against you George, ive actually made some very good stock from boiling, it works!! So i know youre right, the techniques i was taught by a friend and have read about by professionals have been different. As you said "whatever works for you" is definately the right approach. In the end its all academic, very few folks here even use stock and i dont believe its used much in BIR cooking.. more likey Akhni stock or Yakhni is used.. ive tried this and it hasnt improved my dishes.
I value your input George, you always have something interesting to say and youre never too scared to disagree with someone or ask questions if its not totally clear.
Anyway, lets get back to more important stuff like where do i buy a packet of secret ingredient ;D
Kind Regards Ashes
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That goes for me too (Ashes reply) George, this is certainly not about ganging up or having a go at anyone; it is about healthy friendly debate though. You are correct, as there isn't any absolute approach. Cooks are taught at college about the basics, essentials, techniques and so on. If that were gospel the we would be eating boring food with no change. So the point is what works for you is fine and creative; that is where the good cooks come from - it is because they accept a challenge, they have a baseline, and off theu go on their adventute, Blumenthal is the exception.; not the book or college! But what you have read in books, seen on TV or have been taught by Chef friends is all grist to the mill and creates your baseline.
I have and treasure a professional cookery book given to me by my father called the Great Scandenavian Cook Book, known colloquially as the Chef's Bible, written by various famous Scandanavian Chefs. This contains the reference baseline for all cooking for professional chef's. I rarely use any recipes from it, but I doo use modified versions once I have an idea of what is supposed to happen and what result I am expected to obtain. See what I mean. That is why I call myself a cook not a Chef! :D
Trust in your Trip!
All the best George, your input is most welcome and informative
CP
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....noooooooooooowww a group hug??....anybody?? ;) :P ;D
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Cool post ;)
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Ashes and CP
Thank you for your kind words. Like my view of most of the members here, I have the greatest respect for your valuable inputs. Yes, this is just a friendly debate from my point of view; not an argument at all.
To clarify - everything I've ever read says not to boil stock when you're making it - just simmer it gently. But then chefs seem to cut and run at the end when they boil it like crazy to increase the concentration of flavour of the little bit of liquid that's left.
I think the key difference is that the simmering stage is whilst the meat/veg are in the mix. Next, the (relatively dilute) stock is passed through a sieve to remove as much solid matter as possible. Then, I assume, it does no harm to boil away, to concentrate what's left.
Regards
George
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Hi George and all. I was up doing my DIY things (to get some browny points for beers) and I suddenly realise why we had this conflict (I mean that in a nice debate way). Lets use chicken stock as an example. the reason you resist boiling stocks is that if you do they go cloudy and it is very difficult to clear them, which most western chefs demand for their sauces, Jus, Demi Clace etc. I was taught to put the carcasses in a pan, cover with water, season, put in herbs, onions or whatever is required and bring rapidly to the boil, and then reduce to a minimum heat. During this time you add more water as required. Now, at the end of this process, and this is where the mix-up may lie, you remove all the ingredients from the water stock and pass the liquid through muslin, or a fine conical sieve or Chinois Sieve until you get a clear liquid. Then, if you need to reduce the stock you bring it to the boil until has reduced to your requirements. I have been chatting to my son who is a long trained professional chef and he agrees. So George, Ashes et al, none of you are wrong, and I suspect that for curries it doesn't really matter (I don't use stock only Akhni if I need to). While on Chicken stock, another reason for not boiling in the early stages is because this stock has a tendency to go bitter, I do not know why, I was just taught it.
If you want to make a richer stock and reduce the risk of cloudiness, roast the bones first. But be aware that this stock can dominate your dish with its flavour.
Hope this clears things up
CP
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Ashes and CP
Thank you for your kind words. Like my view of most of the members here, I have the greatest respect for your valuable inputs. Yes, this is just a friendly debate from my point of view; not an argument at all.
To clarify - everything I've ever read says not to boil stock when you're making it - just simmer it gently. But then chefs seem to cut and run at the end when they boil it like crazy to increase the concentration of flavour of the little bit of liquid that's left.
I think the key difference is that the simmering stage is whilst the meat/veg are in the mix. Next, the (relatively dilute) stock is passed through a sieve to remove as much solid matter as possible. Then, I assume, it does no harm to boil away, to concentrate what's left.
Regards
George
Sorry George, your post came in while I was writing mine up. So we are talking the same language. In your second paragraph; if you have been watching TV chefs as I often do (yawn), yes they do cut corners. But you may be confusing the deglazing or reduction processes with stock making. Deglazing is usually done with wine or some sort of alcohol, but sometimes clarified stock. Reduction is that final process to produce the final stock, and this requires boiling as you quite rightly say.
Voila
CP
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And i hope you all take stock :D of all this information.
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I didnt realised this, George was right.. about boiling, i always assumed it was because the more steam you produce the more flavour you lose (although as i said i have produced fine stocks with boiling). Cloudiness doesnt matter so much if you are making a sauce with say bruri mani ( or whatever the spelling is) style? a technique where you melt butter and add flour to make a thickening agent. A technique that the "old" masters used which isnt so popular anymore ???.. but sure works well.
Talking of making stock here is what Anthony Bourdain has to say about making dark stock:
"Take as many veal bones as you can fit into your largest heavy-bottomed pot or pots, wash them in cold water and dry them. If you want to cheat , as many of us do, throw a wad of tomato paste on top of the bones, sprinkle a handful of flour over them and mix through.
place the roasting pan in a preheated 350 f / 180 c oven ... avoid burning..etc etc
Stock has a place in the right dish.. it can improve a dish (including) a curry no end, but it wont produce a BIR style curry - because I dont believe that western style stocks are used in typical BIR cooking. Pat Chapman said in one of his books.. the water in which the meat is cooked in, is "incredibly", thrown away (unquote)
Curry sauce (on the whole) is a vegetable dish, a very good one too, but it wont have meat stock in it unless the chef wants it to :)
Ashes
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Well said
CP
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Great: I hope nobody thinks all this talk about stock is a bit irrelevant! I have the greatest respect for the use of stock in western cooking, as one key element to help produce the finest tasting sauces. I don't see why Indian sauces should be much different so I've been playing around with stock, e.g. in chicken korma. Unfortunately, I haven't yet hit a 'jackpot' recipe but, if and when I do, I will let you know.
Regards
George
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Keep us posted George. Maybe add some simple whole spices to your stock brew?
Happy Cooking
CP
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Cloudiness doesnt matter so much if you are making a sauce with say bruri mani ( or whatever the spelling is) style? a technique where you melt butter and add flour to make a thickening agent. A technique that the "old" masters used which isnt so popular anymore ???.. but sure works well.
Ashes
Yikes Beurre mani? :D this thread is getting better and better Yes you are quite right Ashes it's a popular thickening procedure for soups stews and sauces consisting of 2 parts soft butter and 1 of flour mixed together to make a kind of dough but you could use cornflour or better still Arrowroot.
Layne :)
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Great: I hope nobody thinks all this talk about stock is a bit irrelevant!
That?s a very relevant question George! ;)
Is a discussion on how to make stock (or how to grind spices or to make demi glace, beurre manie?.or roux blanc, blond, or brun, for that matter) relevant to the topic of this thread (i.e. the longevity of the taste and smell of a BIR curry)?.....I don?t think so? :P
Is it relevant to the main goals of this forum (i.e. to recreate British Indian Restaurant curries)?.......perhaps?
Is it relevant to cooking in general?......absolutely?
Is it interesting?....undoubtedly, to some/many people?
So?it?s interesting, but largely irrelevant, particularly to the topic of this thread, wouldn?t you say?
Perhaps it would be better to keep threads focused on their topic and to start a new thread for additional information? It should be easier for people to subsequently find the information that way?
Personally, I find it very frustrating when threads digress significantly from their original topic (and, yes, I know this is also one of those significant digressions! :P). That's not to say that the digressions aren't interesting, just probably better off being posted elsewhere.
Just my opinion, of course???? 8)
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Yikes Beurre mani? :D this thread is getting better and better Yes you are quite right Ashes it's a popular thickening procedure for soups stews and sauces consisting of 2 parts soft butter and 1 of flour mixed together to make a kind of dough but you could use cornflour or better still Arrowroot.
Layne :)
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Maybe, to pull this back to curry making BIR style, I would add one more comment. There is a similar process to Beurre Manie in Indian restaurant cooking and I have had to use it myself. The difference being that Besan (Chick Pea) flour is used, it is used in emergencies (and for one or two specialist dishes I think) to thicken as usual. Besan blends in the flavours better.
CP