Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on July 31, 2013, 08:05 PM
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My curries have been pretty much rubbish of late, and two attempts at re-creating a 60s/70s Bhuna Chicken this week failed dismally. So today I returned to my roots. KD1 base, absolutely to spec., and a KD1-inspired Chicken Madras. It was /great/, just like my curries used to be. So, why is it that it is asserted time and time again that the initial frying of the spices is the key, whilst Kris Dhillon makes no attempt whatsoever to fry them , yet the results are out of this world ? Here, for reference, are the recipe and methodology that I used :
- 3/4 pint KD1 base
- 6 pieces pre-cooked chicken (free-range, Wiltshire, breast)
- 5 tablespoons vegetable oil
- 1 teaspoon Kashmiri mirch
- 1 teaspoon Deggi mirch
- 1 teaspoon Bassar curry masala
- 1 1/2 teaspoons ground cumin
- 1 teaspoon coarse rock salt
- 2/3 teaspoon ground methi
- 1/2 teaspoon garam masala
- 1/3 teaspoon ground coriander
- 1/5 teaspoon hing
- coriander stalks (chopped)
- coriander leaves (coarsely chopped)
- Heat the oil, add the base, bring to the boil
- Add the chilli, Bassar, salt & chicken; cook at 70% for 5 minutes
- Reduce heat to 30%, add the cumin, fenugreek, coriander, hing; cook for 3 minutes
- Reduce heat to 20%, add the coriander stalk and garam masala; cook for 2 minutes
- Turn off the heat, garnish with coriander leaf, serve with pulao rice and red onion salad
The only non-recipe addition was a little rabbit stock at the very end, as the sauce was a little too thick for my taste.
** Phil.
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Have you tried the same dish frying the spices first Phil? Like in, 'erm, KD2.
Rob :)
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Have you tried the same dish frying the spices first Phil? Like in, 'erm, KD2 ?
Not exactly the same dish, Rob, but very similar. As I have KD2 (rather too many copies : one of my friends keeps forgetting she has already given it to me !) I shall take a look and then compare. But I am now beginning to believe that at least a part of my recent failures is down to spice-ageing. I made sag aloo a few nights ago, from a tried and trusted recipe, and could barely taste any spicing at all. I may have to ditch my present stock and start again, this time buying only small bags of each rather than large bags for (?false?) economy ...
** Phil.
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Phil
Was your KD1 Madras made with your ageing spices? It turned out great?
Steve
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Was your KD1 Madras made with your ageing spices? It turned out great?
Less aged than the "CA curry masala" I used in the sag aloo. My most commonly used spices (Kashmiri & deggi mirch, ground methi) are relatively fresh because I buy them in small packs and use a lot. Others (such as turmeric and paprika) I buy in bulk and use (relatively) little. The "CA curry masala" could be seriously old ...
But to return to Rob's suggestion ... In fact, it would not be possible to cook it a la KD2, as there is no recipe for either Chicken Curry or Chicken Madras in that volume ! The very first recipe in her chicken section (Chicken Methiwalla) uses exactly the same methodology as KD1 (modulo the frying of the methi leaves) and whilst /some/ of the later chicken recipes fry the ground spices this is by no means universal. Exactly which dish did you have in mind when you asked your question, Rob ?
** Phil.
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Was your KD1 Madras made with your ageing spices? It turned out great?
Less aged than the "CA curry masala" I used in the sag aloo. My most commonly used spices (Kashmiri & deggi mirch, ground methi) are relatively fresh because I buy them in small packs and use a lot. Others (such as turmeric and paprika) I buy in bulk and use (relatively) little. The "CA curry masala" could be seriously old ...
But to return to Rob's suggestion ... In fact, it would not be possible to cook it a la KD2, as there is no recipe for either Chicken Curry or Chicken Madras in that volume ! The very first recipe in her chicken section (Chicken Methiwalla) uses exactly the same methodology as KD1 (modulo the frying of the methi leaves) and whilst /some/ of the later chicken recipes fry the ground spices this is by no means universal. Exactly which dish did you have in mind when you asked your question, Rob ?
** Phil.
Phil. The reference to KD2 was meant in terms of the (generally) accepted technique for frying spices, for a curry, which seemed to be causing you confusion in your opening post. Your recipe doesn't actually appear in either of the books, but I know what you mean. If you are still struggling to make a decent curry after changing your dodgy spices, may I suggest going back to Mick's ebook (vol 1), or revisit Chewy's videos. Both of these resources will help get you back on track, and in the right direction.
Rob :)
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Phil. The reference to KD2 was meant in terms of the (generally) accepted technique for frying spices, for a curry, which seemed to be causing you confusion in your opening post. Your recipe doesn't actually appear in either of the books, but I know what you mean. If you are still struggling to make a decent curry after changing your dodgy spices, may I suggest going back to Mick's ebook (vol 1), or revisit Chewy's videos. Both of these resources will help get you back on track, and in the right direction.
Thanks for the clarification, Rob, but I am not sure that I am "confused" regarding "the (generally) accepted technique for frying spices". My point was that KD1 (which was my breakthrough buy, many many years ago) does /not/ require any frying of the spices (they are cooked in a mixture of base and oil, in which the base predominates) and even KD2 is by no means consistent in requiring the frying of spices. So it seems to me that the frying of spices, even if a generally accepted technique, is /not/ essential for the making of a good BIR curry, and I was just interested in trying to stimulate a debate as to why it is now regarded as the sine qua non of BIR cuisine.
You are, of course, quite correct that the recipe that I used does not appear in KD1, but it is directly derived from her Chicken Curry / Chicken Madras / Chicken Vindaloo continuum.
** Phil.
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From what I can make out, reading what you have said, you have made a great curry without frying the spices in oil at the start, and you made a similar type of dish, but with frying the spices. How did the latter turn out compared to the former? Or I am talking gibberish?
Rob :)
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Phil, it is said our taste buds change every seven years, maybe you have reached a seven year mark ;)
Cheers,
Ken
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From what I can make out, reading what you have said, you have made a great curry without frying the spices in oil at the start, and you made a similar type of dish, but with frying the spices. How did the latter turn out compared to the former? Or I am talking gibberish?
No, you are 50% correct. I have made a great curry (many times) wthout frying the spices. And I have made some indisputably awful curries when I have fried the spices. Based purely on personal experience, I just cannot go with the received wisdom that frying the spices is (a) indispensable, or (b) even necessary to make a good authentic BIR-style curry. On the other hand, I am sufficiently old to remember how a British curry was made ("add curry powder to water containing meat and sultanas; bring to the boil; cook until ready; serve, and pretend you like the results"), so I fully accept that oil /is/ a vital ingredient -- it is simply the /frying/ of the spices in the oil that I do not accept is essential. Discuss.
** Phil.
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Phil, it is said our taste buds change every seven years, maybe you have reached a seven year mark ;)
No, I still hate bananas, pears, nuts, and 98% of all vegetables. It can't be that :)
** Phil.
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I've watched two chefs fairly recently. The one fries the spices within an inch of their lives before adding any base. The other adds base (a small amount to start with) almost immediately after the spices (mix/chilli powder) are added. Based solely on results, quality curry, the first chef is in a totally different league. Perhaps herein lies the issue? It is not as easy as we might think to fry spices correctly. We think the fry will burn them, so we ease off. I don't. I blast them, every time. Especially ex-hot chilli powder. So my view is that cooking the spices, in oil, is a must to produce a quality BIR curry. I don't believe you can cook spices properly in an essentially aqueous medium, in 10 mins or so. You would need hours of boiling, in a handi, for example.
Rob :)
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Phil, interesting question, although we can't get away from the fact that all the decent, and not so decent, BIR restaurants first fry off the spices in oil to get maximum flavour extraction, I think that moving away from this method is somewhat like re-inventing the wheel.
After watching the excellent 'Rick Stein's India' series it became apparent that the common theme was to fry the spices in oil, this has been the way for hundreds of years (maybe thousands) I'm sure other methods would have been tried (?)
Cheers,
Ken
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I can also add that from what I've seen even slow handi cooking (in BIR TAs/restaurants) commences with one almighty bagar. No bagar, no taste. End of story.
Rob :)
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I am very willing to believe that the vast majority of good chefs, of Indian housewives, and of members of this forum, all fry their spices and achieve first-class results. What interests me is that (a) Kris Dhillon did not advocate frying the spices in KD1, and (b) I have achieved better results using her "don't fry the spices" methodology than I have ever achieved when I have tried frying them. My only reasons for reporting this are (a) to stimulate discussion ("let's think outside the box") and (b) to see if between us we can identify why Kris's no-fry approach works so well, yet the majority prefer to use a more complex method.
** Phil.
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Timing is the key!
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Timing is the key!
lol Chris...timing is the key...we've waited ??hours ??minutes ??seconds for the infamous ebook...perfect timing my friend...only fooling btw :)
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Timing is the key!
lol Chris...timing is the key...we've waited ??hours ??minutes ??seconds for the infamous ebook...perfect timing my friend...only fooling btw :)
It will be worth it ;)
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What interests me is that (a) Kris Dhillon did not advocate frying the spices in KD1, and (b) I have achieved better results using her "don't fry the spices" methodology than I have ever achieved when I have tried frying them.
I've come up with similar findings. I agree with you. Perhaps the frying of spices, as an essential step, should be added to Jerry's list of myths.
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Just to add my tuppenceworth in....
My understanding of the frying of spices process is to release the flavour, particularly, the oils in whole seeds. In traditional Indian cuisine, whole spices are often fried, if the seeds are to be left whole in the dish, or fried then removed (cardamom, cloves etc. Another method used is to dry roast whole spices then grind them before adding to the dish (as in the process for making garam masala).
I don't know how commercially sold ground spices are made, but I would assume, with seed-based spice powders, there will be some heating/cooking process invloved before the spices are ground? If that is the case, then the only flavour remaining is in the powder. I'm not sure if frying the powder is going to achieve anything other than, perhaps, flavouring the oil and giving a more even distribution of spice throughout the dish. Or maybe the powder begins to burn and produce a different taste? I don't know.
Hey, I haven't actually answered anything............oh well.......nurse!!!!!!
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I have also had great results with KDs recipes and techniques. In my experience frying the spices it not essential, unless you are using whole spices. You just need to cook them sufficiently to extract the full flavour, which is perhaps where the real skill lies.
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My curries have been pretty much rubbish of late, and two attempts at re-creating a 60s/70s Bhuna Chicken this week failed dismally. So today I returned to my roots. KD1 base, absolutely to spec., and a KD1-inspired Chicken Madras. It was /great/, just like my curries used to be.
So are you saying the curries from recipes here on this forum are actually inferior to what you achieve by following KD1 recipes (exactly or closely inspired) from the mid-1980s?
Also, are your spoon measures level, rounded or heaped?
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My curries have been pretty much rubbish of late, and two attempts at re-creating a 60s/70s Bhuna Chicken this week failed dismally. So today I returned to my roots. KD1 base, absolutely to spec., and a KD1-inspired Chicken Madras. It was /great/, just like my curries used to be.
So are you saying the curries from recipes here on this forum are actually inferior to what you achieve by following KD1 recipes (exactly or closely inspired) from the mid-1980s?
No, I am saying that the curries from recipes here as prepared by me never seem to match KD1-inspired curries in terms of flavour, consistency (both senses) and BIR-authenticity. Others may well have achieved far superior results using the recipes and methods to be found here. What would be particularly interesting would be to hear from other members who have tried KD1, and who have also tried recipes from this forum that require the spices to be fried in oil, and to learn which of the two techniques in their opinion gives the better and more authentic BIR-style curry.
Also, are your spoon measures level, rounded or heaped?
The short answer is "yes". In terms of the most recent recipe on which I have reported (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12155.msg97398.html#msg97398), the measures were /approximately/ flat, but I made no effort to scrape off any excess, and of course measures such as "1/5 teaspoon hing" are judged purely by eye and therefore subject to fairly wide error bars (in the present case, 1/6 teaspoon <= x < 1/4 teaspoon).
** Phil.
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It will be worth it ;)
[/quote]
Worth the wait? I hope so as the last time we were told about 5-6 weeks? has that time passed now?
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Phil
I tried something along the lines of your recipe this evening and it was relatively flavourless. I did so many things differently, though, that it's not fair to condemn your recipe itself. For a start, I used my own base sauce and I didn't have any rabbit stock to hand.
My pre-cooked chicken was grilled thighs. Perhaps these leeched more chicken juices into the sauce than your breast meat. I find that chicken juices are a curry-killer, rather than a benefit.
I'll try again, adding more spices to taste, to see if I can improve the flavour.
Not only does this recipe involve no frying of the spices. It doesn't include any onions or ginger/garlic puree in the final stage of cooking.
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Phil
I tried something along the lines of your recipe this evening and it was relatively flavourless. I did so many things differently, though, that it's not fair to condemn your recipe itself. For a start, I used my own base sauce and I didn't have any rabbit stock to hand.
I doubt either made much difference. Far more important (IMHO) was "did you use Bassar Curry Masala, Deggi Mirch and Kashmiri Mirch" ?
My pre-cooked chicken was grilled thighs. Perhaps these leeched more chicken juices into the sauce than your breast meat. I find that chicken juices are a curry-killer, rather than a benefit.
Mine was breast, pre-cooked in oil, g/g paste, Patak's Kashmiri Masala and turmeric (from memory, may be slightly inaccurate).
Not only does this recipe involve no frying of the spices. It doesn't include any onions or ginger/garlic puree in the final stage of cooking.
Yes, Kris tactitly challenges a great deal of the received wisdom, yet I still find her approach yields 1st-class results.
** Phil.
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Far more important (IMHO) was "did you use Bassar Curry Masala, Deggi Mirch and Kashmiri Mirch" ?
I used bassar and deggi but I don't have any kashmiri mirch so I added a chopped green chilli instead. I think of all those as chilli for heat, rather than much flavour but I could be wrong.
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I used bassar and deggi but I don't have any kashmiri mirch so I added a chopped green chilli instead. I think of all those as chilli for heat, rather than much flavour but I could be wrong.
B, D & K do indeed all contribute heat; K contributes colour; but B contributes a great deal of flavour.
** Phil.
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Try this version, George : my wife has just given it 10/10 and even I was willing to give it 8.5 :
- Make KD1 base to spec., reserving some of the green sauce (i.e., pre-tomato and spices) to pre-cook the chicken.
- Pre-cook the chicken :
- 1lb chicken, cut into large curry-size pieces (each about 1oz after pre-cooking)
- 3 tablespoons Asda Chinese stir-fry oil
- 2 tablespoons reserved green sauce
- 1/2 teaspoon ground turmeric
- 1/2 teaspoon Patak's Kashmiri masala
- Cook oil, sauce, turmeric and Kashmiri masala, stirring continually, at a moderate heat for five minutes
- Add the chicken, stir well until all the pieces are coated, put lid on, cook gently until just firm (do not go too far)
- Place sauce + chicken into a plastic takeaway container, allow to cool, then allow to rest in the refrigerator until needed
- Make the curry :
- The chicken pieces from above
- 5 tablespoons Asda Chinese stir-fry oil
- 3/4 pint finished base (i.e., with tomato and spices)
- 1 teaspoon Bassar curry masala
- 1 teaspoon Bolsts curry powder (hot)
- 1 teaspoon Kashmiri mirch
- 1 teaspoon coarse rock salt
- 1 teaspoon ground cumin
- 1/2 teaspoon ground fenugreek
- 1/4 teaspoon ground coriander
- 1/8 teaspoon chat masala
- About two tablespoons coriander stalk cut into 1/16" pieces
- About two teaspoons coarsely chopped coriander leaves
- Place the oil and base sauce in a 28cm stainless steel non-stick frying pan and bring to a rolling boil, controlling the heat to avoid excessive splattering (induction : 60-70%)
- Add the Bassar, Kashmiri mirch, curry powder and salt, stir well, add the chicken and cook at 60-70% for five minutes
- Add the cumin, fenugreek, coriander and chat masala, stir well, reduce the heat to 30% and cook for three minutes, increasing the heat to 40 or 50% as necessary to keep the dish bubbling gently
- Add the coriander stalks, stir well and cook for a further two minutes
- Garnish with the coriander leaves and serve with red onion salad and microwave-cooked pulao rice
** Phil.
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Try this version, George : my wife has just given it 10/10 and even I was willing to give it 8.5 :
Many thanks for going to this trouble. The least I can do, is try it.
Yesterday, I used something along the lines of your chicken marinade. I used Pataks Balti paste, which I happened to have in the fridge, plus some lemon juice, fresh garlic and pepper. It's the first time I've got pleasant results from any Pataks paste. The amount which entered the sauce didn't ruin it, like Pataks usually does. My sauce was my own, just following my instinct.
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Many thanks for going to this trouble. The least I can do, is try it.
A pleasure, George. It was good to make a curry that was received with such enthusiasm by my wife -- I must be doing something right !
Yesterday, I used something along the lines of your chicken marinade. I used Pataks Balti paste, which I happened to have in the fridge, plus some lemon juice, fresh garlic and pepper. It's the first time I've got pleasant results from any Pataks paste. The amount which entered the sauce didn't ruin it, like Pataks usually does. My sauce was my own, just following my instinct.
I haven't tried their Balti paste, but their Kashmiri masala is one of my staples. It is easy to overdo it, if you use too much, but used in moderation it can add a definite je ne sais quoi to a curry.
** Phil.
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I haven't tried their Balti paste, but their Kashmiri masala is one of my staples. It is easy to overdo it, if you use too much, but used in moderation it can add a definite je ne sais quoi to a curry.
I bought Patak's Balti paste in order to try a recipe which seemed to show promise, but it was rubbish - not from this site, incidentally.
I will, however, give the Kashmiri masala (I assume it is a paste) a try, seeing as you recommend it.